28 replies to this topic

[steelsky]

Many testimonials and studies mark different conclusions. Let's make order of things:

1. Is Modafinil more potent (meaning that you need a lower dose for the same results? I'm mainly referring the the AUC - the total (or average) effectiveness, not per period of time (as it is well known that Adrafinil takes longer to "kick in")
2. Continuing the first question - does Adrafinil (lasts longer)? What is the effectiveness period of each?
3. Do they really have different drawbacks and advantages regarding their cognitive effects? If so, what are they?
4. How bad Adrafinil is really (for health) compared to other drugs and specifically to Modafinil?

[Heliotrope]

Main diff, one is legal, while the other technically not unless by doctor

1. I think it stands to reason for Mod to be more efficient, potent even. What is AUC??

2. similar half-lives , I heard/read. wiki.

3. I'm sure there're side effects.

4. I think adrafinil taxes the liver a bit, but the liver toxicity is low compared to other toxins

[Duke]

Adrafinil is metabolized in vivo to Modafinil... their mechanisms of action are essentially the same at that point.

The key difference is that you have to wait ~hour till Adrafinil is metabolized. The hour half-life of Adrafinil is irrelevant to the ~twelve hour half life of Modafinil. Once metabolized into Modafinil I'd wager the half life tendencies are the same in metabolized Adrafinil as in Modafinil stand-alone.

The other key difference is price, hahaha.

Main diff, one is legal, while the other technically not unless by doctor

1. I think it stands to reason for Mod to be more efficient, potent even. What is AUC??

If by efficient you mean you get the desired effects faster then I guess you're right.

3. I'm sure there're side effects.

Other than those one would normally get with Modafinil stand-alone, what other side effects can you point out other than traces of sulfur once metabolized--sulfur is harmless. I'm not saying there's no side effects, I'm just curious about further distinctions between the two drugs.

4. I think adrafinil taxes the liver a bit, but the liver toxicity is low compared to other toxins

Over prolonged periods of time, yes. Hey, sounds like alcohol! You shouldn't be using stimulants all the time anyways (unless you have ADHD, and yes I'm aware some believe that is a dubious claim). Just like alcohol, moderation is important, especially considering the many unknowns involving using these many of these drugs as nootropics in the long run.

Edited by Duke, 18 January 2009 - 02:07 AM.

[steelsky]

Adrafinil is metabolized in vivo to Modafinil... their mechanisms of action are essentially the same at that point.

The key difference is that you have to wait ~hour till Adrafinil is metabolized. The hour half-life of Adrafinil is irrelevant to the ~twelve hour half life of Modafinil. Once metabolized into Modafinil I'd wager the half life tendencies are the same in metabolized Adrafinil as in Modafinil stand-alone.

The other key difference is price, hahaha.

Main diff, one is legal, while the other technically not unless by doctor

1. I think it stands to reason for Mod to be more efficient, potent even. What is AUC??

If by efficient you mean you get the desired effects faster then I guess you're right.

3. I'm sure there're side effects.

Other than those one would normally get with Modafinil stand-alone, what other side effects can you point out other than traces of sulfur once metabolized--sulfur is harmless. I'm not saying there's no side effects, I'm just curious about further distinctions between the two drugs.

4. I think adrafinil taxes the liver a bit, but the liver toxicity is low compared to other toxins

Over prolonged periods of time, yes. Hey, sounds like alcohol! You shouldn't be using stimulants all the time anyways (unless you have ADHD, and yes I'm aware some believe that is a dubious claim). Just like alcohol, moderation is important, especially considering the many unknowns involving using these many of these drugs as nootropics in the long run.

Regarding efficiency - I didn't mean getting results faster, but the overall dose/results ratio, disregarding the periods of effectiveness. Does taking Xmg of Modafinil equal to taking Xmg of Adrafinil, the difference being only the time each one starts being effective, and the time each lasts?

And yes - it did sound like alcohol. There were too many "BEWARE!" posts, and I'm not buying it. I believe that while Adrafinil is of course more taxing to the liver, it can't be much more harmful than any commonly marketed drugs out there (alcohol included). It'd still be better to take Modafinil, or to not take it at all, but I don't believe it is so disastrous (especially of one cycles).

What I'm most interested in is the difference in effect. Some claim that Adrafinil didn't do much for them while Modafinil was very effective. Are they evaluating the experience wrongly, or does this mean that some amount of Adrafinil ISN'T metabolized to Modafinil, and so lost (meaning that a higher dose is required)? Or maybe Adrafinil isn't coverted EXACTLY to Modafinil in vivo?

[jackinbox]

What the guys said is correct in theory. In practice both have different effects. Adrafinil as an anti-depressant efect and isn't as bad for anxiety. My heart want to explose on modafinil I don't have this problem as much with adrafinil.

[steelsky]

No one still on the proposed issues?

[Duke]

Metabolizing adrafinil, much like metabolizing anything, is a complex process. Disparities in bioavailability would make a difference, not to mention bioavailibility can be controlled to a degree intrinsically (which may explain why some people "notice" effects with adrafinil and not modafinil and vice versa)--I doubt you'll find an absolute equation to answer your question.

Just experiment with both under controlled circumstances and see which garners more efficacious results.

Edited by Duke, 20 January 2009 - 05:16 AM.

[Pike]

I was kind of interested in trying Mod. I did once, but at the time, I didn't know exactly what it was/how it would affect me, and I irresponsibly stacked it with my prescribed Adderall. Long story short: UNPLEASANT.

If I was interested in possibly taking Mod occasionally, would it be a smart idea to give Adri a try? Or should I just not bother with it, and go with Mod when I can?

lastly, if I was to order the 10g bulk powder of Mod from airsealed, would it be a smart idea to invest in a capping set (probably size 4 or 3, due to the strength of it), or is it okay to just add it to a drink in 1/8teaspoon increments?

Edited by Pike, 20 January 2009 - 08:07 PM.

[Duke]

@ Sky

I serendipitously read the modafinil article on Wiki just a bit ago, and, at the end of the second paragraph:

"Modafinil and its chemical precursor Adrafinil were developed by Lafon Laboratories, a French company acquired by Cephalon in 2001.^[13] Modafinil is the primary metabolite of adrafinil, and, while their activity is similar, adrafinil requires a higher dose to achieve equipotent effects."

Again, no definitive "equation" but this clears up this conundrum at least partially.

I was kind of interested in trying Mod. I did once, but at the time, I didn't know exactly what it was/how it would affect me, and I irresponsibly stacked it with my prescribed Adderall. Long story short: UNPLEASANT.

If I was interested in possibly taking Mod occasionally, would it be a smart idea to give Adri a try? Or should I just not bother with it, and go with Mod when I can?

lastly, if I was to order the 10g bulk powder of Mod from airsealed, would it be a smart idea to invest in a capping set (probably size 4 or 3, due to the strength of it), or is it okay to just add it to a drink in 1/8teaspoon increments?

I'd just stick with Modafinil... less of a 'bureaucracy' so to speak to get the effects and so less chance something goes awry in the process (i.e.while it's metabolizing). And if what I quoted above from Wiki is true, the greater dosage necessary somewhat offsets the cheaper price of Adrafinil, no?

I'd imagine managing such a meager amount of Modafinil in powder form could lead to losing some of it in the process of getting it onto the teaspoon...then some is left over in your mouth and God knows what else. Just cap it, more precise and less mess. When you buy those caps they usually come in mammoth quantities so they can be used later as well. Sounds like a good investment to me.

[Steve_86]

3. Do they really have different drawbacks and advantages regarding their cognitive effects? If so, what are they?
4. How bad Adrafinil is really (for health) compared to other drugs and specifically to Modafinil?

Read the posts by 'luv2increase' and 'edward' in: http://www.imminst.o...o...ic=25666=

Modafinil and Adrefinal might be linked with orofacial movement disorders.

Modafinil and Adrafinil are relatively new substance. Even though the related prevalence rates of orofacial or tardive dyskinesias are low now, maybe it is something that takes time to develop? 20 years from now there could be a significant portion of Modafinil/Adrafinil users with these incurable problems. Very scary...

Edited by Steve_86, 21 January 2009 - 04:36 AM.

[Duke]

All around healthy people with good nutrition that exercise and the whole nine yards are probably much less likely to develop those maladies. And even if this phenomenon is real, there's plenty of guinea pigs that have been using modafinil chronically way before most people here have heard of it (Modafinil is over 10 years old)--in other words if this is a serious issue requiring serious attention (and apparently one that sprouts long term) you'll have nothing to worry about as the only people affected would be those formerly mentioned 'guinea' pigs.

From the study luv2increase found:

"Orofacial or tardive dyskinesias are involuntary repetitive movements of the mouth and face. In most cases, they occur in older psychotic patients who are in institutions and in whom long-term treatment with antipsychotic drugs of the phenothiazine and butyrophenone groups is being carried out. These dyskinesias are frequent in occurrence and characteristically are irreversible. Several biochemical mechanisms have been proposed as causes, including hypersensitivity or partially deneverated brain dopamine receptors and low affinity of the offending drugs for brain muscarinic cholinergic receptors."

Read the first sentence of this post, then re read what I quoted just above.

Edited by Duke, 21 January 2009 - 05:13 AM.

[steelsky]

@ Sky

I serendipitously read the modafinil article on Wiki just a bit ago, and, at the end of the second paragraph:

"Modafinil and its chemical precursor Adrafinil were developed by Lafon Laboratories, a French company acquired by Cephalon in 2001.^[13] Modafinil is the primary metabolite of adrafinil, and, while their activity is similar, adrafinil requires a higher dose to achieve equipotent effects."

Again, no definitive "equation" but this clears up this conundrum at least partially.

I was kind of interested in trying Mod. I did once, but at the time, I didn't know exactly what it was/how it would affect me, and I irresponsibly stacked it with my prescribed Adderall. Long story short: UNPLEASANT.

If I was interested in possibly taking Mod occasionally, would it be a smart idea to give Adri a try? Or should I just not bother with it, and go with Mod when I can?

lastly, if I was to order the 10g bulk powder of Mod from airsealed, would it be a smart idea to invest in a capping set (probably size 4 or 3, due to the strength of it), or is it okay to just add it to a drink in 1/8teaspoon increments?

I'd just stick with Modafinil... less of a 'bureaucracy' so to speak to get the effects and so less chance something goes awry in the process (i.e.while it's metabolizing). And if what I quoted above from Wiki is true, the greater dosage necessary somewhat offsets the cheaper price of Adrafinil, no?

I'd imagine managing such a meager amount of Modafinil in powder form could lead to losing some of it in the process of getting it onto the teaspoon...then some is left over in your mouth and God knows what else. Just cap it, more precise and less mess. When you buy those caps they usually come in mammoth quantities so they can be used later as well. Sounds like a good investment to me.

Yep - the reason I was asking was to see whether Adrafinil is even worth the cost difference. By a rough calculation, for the same price you can get 3-3.5 times Adrafinil than you would have gotten Modafinil. The real question now is how much more potent, relatively, is Modafinil over Adrafinil. I doubt 3 times more, but even if double - Modafinil might be a better choice health wise.

Pike - I was also interested in ordering the powder from Airsealed. Problem is that they don't accept credit card (other than American Express). This is weird since for pills (not in the "bulk" section) they DO accept VISA.
Speaking of caps - where do you buy them from? and is it hard to cap powder without making a mess?!

[Thales]

Orofacial dykinesia?

Would a subtle eye and eyebrow twitching which has started since beginning modafinil be something to be concerned about? It is not a constant thing, but I do notice it several times a day.

It matches the description of orofacial dyskinesia below, in that it’s an involuntary repetitive movement of the face. However, last week I was convinced modafinil was causing my epidermis to separate from my dermis, so perhaps I’m just being paranoid again.

And I apologize for being off topic, but I had never heard of this side effect of modafinil and it has me kind of worried.

Edited by Thales, 22 January 2009 - 10:17 AM.

[bgwithadd]

Wow, I had no idea about those effects. Modafinil is a stupid drug if you don't have narcolepsy anyway (like I need help to stay up) but that's horrifying.

[waldemar]

"Would a subtle eye and eyebrow twitching which has started since beginning modafinil be something to be concerned about? It is not a constant thing, but I do notice it several times a day."

I've noticed that too, but I never thought that Modafinil would be the reason. No idea if this is a big deal, for me it's only slightly annoying atm. Does that stop when you stop taking Modafinil? Does it get worse over time?

[steelsky]

Tool my first Adrafinil dose today. 300mg. Let's see what happens.

[Heliotrope]

Tool my first Adrafinil dose today. 300mg. Let's see what happens.

Ok, then see if it works. There's only one brand of adrafinil, olmifon, so you've the white round pills

[flatline]

I've read that Adrafinil has fewer side effects, such as anxiety and insomnia and whatnot. It does seem rather gentle to me, since it "comes up" as its being metabolized by the liver. On the down-side, the metabolism is a bit tricky -- sometimes it takes half hour, sometimes longer, other times it might even make me feel more tired (or is this a tolerance issue). It is subtle so you might not even notice it. Other times it gives you a boost of energy, motivation, and good mood. I like it when it does that, but this seems to happen less often due to tolerance. Maybe Modafinil has fewer tolerance issues, but I wouldn't know.

[flatline]

Besides all that, Adrafinil has been around longer, and so it has been studied more. I've read indications that it might have more of a mood-brightening aspect than Modafinil does. On the other hand, Modafinil is more widely used, and it does not pose a risk of raising liver enzymes.

[steelsky]

Besides all that, Adrafinil has been around longer, and so it has been studied more. I've read indications that it might have more of a mood-brightening aspect than Modafinil does. On the other hand, Modafinil is more widely used, and it does not pose a risk of raising liver enzymes.

flatline - Modafinil IS Adrafinil (post-metabolized), there it's not like Modafinil is a new substance that should be studied.

Anyway - I've tried Adrafinil for two days (semi daily) now. I must say - It's exactly like Modafinil.
Seems like 300mg Adrafinil pretty much equals 200mg Modafinil.
While it isn't true that Adrafinil is MUCH cheaper than Modafinil (depending on where you buy), I'm also very concerned about liver damage. If I take Adrafinil semi-daily, and I don't drink (so no pressure on the liver on that front) - is Adrafinil still harmful? Is it an accumulating damage, or is it just pressure on the liver's action, become damage only if pressed too hard?

[waldemar]

Warning, purely anecdotal information:

I've tried to find out how long it takes for the eye twitching to stop completely. For me it takes about ten days. Note that the effect was very weak to begin with, so I don't see much of a problem there.

[chicha]

In what countries can Olmifon (Adrafinil) be purchased locally?

Lafon, the original patent-holder, was located in France, so I guess one can walk into any pharmacy there and purchase it.

But on the website of IAS, they say that they don't ship this drug (and many others) to the European Union. I've written to them about this and they say they do ship to Switzerland, though. So unless one is willing to move to France or Switzerland, where else might one readily purchase this drug, in person?

P.S. - I'm prepared to move to France, if need be!

Thanks

[yoyo]

since i've never seen any primary literature describing adrafinil's 'liver toxicity' i just assume it is a statistical fluke that the manufacturer talked about to get people to switch to the newer more expensive drug

[ModaMinds]

since i've never seen any primary literature describing adrafinil's 'liver toxicity' i just assume it is a statistical fluke that the manufacturer talked about to get people to switch to the newer more expensive drug

 

It's not necessarily that adrafinil is going to fry your liver the first time you take it, but that adrafinil is always going to utilize the liver more for metabolization. So if you're taking adrafinil every day (given some people rely on modafinil every day), you risk more liver damage than you would experience with modafinil.

[Ruinmir]

I've taken Adrafinil on and off over the last ~3 months or so. From what I remember reading a while back, it takes 2-3 times more adrafinil than modafinil to get equipotent effect. This is because only a portion of the dose metabolizes into modafinil. These drugs are substrates of several cytochrome p-450 enzymes. When taken long term, some of these enzymes will be induced. Sorry I can't be more specific or provide references.

[vLondon]

Just a quick question, how bad would it be if I continuously self medicated 25mg of Moda for a year, I currently have CFS/ME, and find it difficult to focus and concentrate for more than 10mins on any given task, which is quite pathetic when I have so much to learn and do. Would Noopept and a choline source be fine to take with it aswell?

[Ruinmir]

Common dosage for modafinil is 100-200 mg per day, I believe the upper limit is 600mg/day. So 25 isn't likely to do any harm. If you want to be extra cautious you could have your liver enzymes checked after a few months.
I don't know of any specific interactions with noopept/choline, just try low doses first to see how you react.

[Karla Markovich]

Eh, I'm no scientist, but from what I understand adrafinil is metabolized by the body and one byproduct of that is it basically spits out modafinil... I'd imagine adrafinil is going to be a lot harder on your body, It's easy to get a modafinil script in the u.s. if you work anything that could remotely quality as creating 'shiftwork disorder'. Insurance doesn't cover it (not for me) but it's only like 20$ a pill, since I will only use it ONCE in a TEN DAY period, that's cheaper than coffee and really I'll only use it about once every two weeks (10-14 days between doses gives me the best bang for my buck).

[kilgoretrout]

Don't think it's a good idea to use more than occassionally. The was a period when I used it 3-4X/week and sometimes that many days in a row. First clue was really strong sulphur smell to urine, so much I had to avoid using urinal next to co workers due to getting some raised eyebrows like they wondered if I was sick or a meth addict or something, the odor is that strong. Then I started noticing lower back pain when driving then constantly. Put 2 abd 2 together and when I stopped the Adrafinil, in a couple days pain was gone. When used again more than sporadically for a needed boost, the smell AND what was obviously kidney pain returned swiftly. Learned MY lesson!