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Sleeping Supplements


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#1 Ghostrider

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 01:57 AM


I am interested in maximizing the quality of my nightly rest. Sometimes I can take a 2 hour power nap and wake up feeling absolutely refreshed. Sometimes I can get 8 or 9 hours of sleep and wake up feeling more tired than when I went to bed. Actually, that's usually the case as my peak energy is around the time I go to bed. Is there a supplement that I can take which can give me a better night's rest? I seem to hit my deep sleep late in my sleep cycle. I don't want to use a prescription drug, but was hoping for something that can improve the quality of my sleep. Any suggestions?

#2 systemicanomaly

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 02:20 AM

You might be feeling tired after 8 or 9 hours of sleep cuz you're trying to wake up in the middle of a sleep cycle. I find that if I wake up promptly after ~6.5 or ~8 hours, I generally feel well rested. However if I try to get up after 7 or 9 hours, I wake up feeling tired. Sleep cycles early in my nightly sequence might be 90-120 minutes long. Cycles later in the sequence (during the morning hours), are somewhat shorter, perhaps 90 minutes or less in length.

Try experimenting to see if you can figure out your sleep cycles. If you can't recall your dreams then perhaps you are trying to wake up during a level of sleep that is too deep (stage 2-4).

Tryptophan or warm milk at bedtime can be very effective. Since the FDA had banned tryptophan as a supplement (for very flimsy reasons) a while back, 5-HTP (another form of tryptophan) has become very popular. I may be mistaken, but I think that tryptophan supplements have become available again.

Stay away from anything with high levels of alcohol, such as NyQuil. It knocks you out but you don't really get quality sleep from alcohol. When I'm sick, I find the TheraFlu works much better for inducing a restful sleep... but I wake up afrter 4 hours and need another dose of the stuff.

Melatonin works for some ppl, but many find that they feel groggy in the morning (due to residual melatonin in the bloodstream?).

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#3 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 02:45 AM

400mg of Magnesium Citrate and 200mg L-Theanine are my non-addictive uber-sleep combo. Theanine in particular has been shown to improve quality of sleep and mood upon awakening in healthy volunteers... but don't underestimate the magnesium.

#4 Ghostrider

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 04:25 AM

400mg of Magnesium Citrate and 200mg L-Theanine are my non-addictive uber-sleep combo.  Theanine in particular has been shown to improve quality of sleep and mood upon awakening in healthy volunteers... but don't underestimate the magnesium.


Someone recommended the Magnesium Citrate and L-Theanine. I will give them both a try. L-Theanine is kind of hard to find locally. I guess I will have to order online.

#5 jamfropsi

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 08:29 AM

I'd go with this:

Gaba
Theanine
Ashwagandha

u can also go with a zma product or Like the guy before me stated, Magnesium.

#6 systemicanomaly

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 11:19 AM

400mg of Magnesium Citrate and 200mg L-Theanine are my non-addictive uber-sleep combo.  Theanine in particular has been shown to improve quality of sleep and mood upon awakening in healthy volunteers... but don't underestimate the magnesium.


Someone recommended the Magnesium Citrate and L-Theanine. I will give them both a try. L-Theanine is kind of hard to find locally. I guess I will have to order online.



Wouldn't dismiss the L-tryptophan or 5-HTP idea. Note that milk & turkey are both fairly high in tryptophan and are undoubtedly the primary reason that many ppl feel somewhat sleepy after ingesting warm milk or a large amount of turkey. Note that tryptophan and 5-HPT are precursors for the neurotransmitter, serotonin. Seratonin and endogenous melatonin are both major players for normal sleep.

I suspect that the primary reason that the FDA banned L-tryptophan for a while was because it worked so well that it was perceived as a threat to that sale of more costly prescription sleep aids.


As I mentioned before, if you are trying to wake up during stage 2, 3 or 4 sleep, you will undoubtedly feel very tired. The same thing may also hold true for stage 1 sleep (which usually only happens twice during a normal night of sleep). The following graphic should give you a better idea of your own sleep cycles:

Posted Image

http://web.umr.edu/~...ages/cycles.gif

#7 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 01:09 PM

Ashwaghanda is not a bad idea, and neither is L-tryptophan. With regard to 5-HTP, I was never comfortable using it because of the theoretical risk of excessive peripheral conversion to serotonin, which apparently has some potential to damage heart valves. I don't think this has been demonstrated clinically, but personally, I would still go with L-tryptophan to be on the safe side.

#8 xanadu

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 08:40 PM

I use

gaba
ashwaganda
bacopa
theanine
melatonin
inositol

I can't say any of them do a whole heck of a lot but together they seem to help. Melatonin worked well at first by itself then I must have gotten used to it. I'm planning to get some taurine and see how it does. Rhodiola rosea helps with stress.

#9 kottke

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 10:12 PM

Inositol worked amazing for me. If you go with magnesium go with magnesium taurate. Its magnesium bound with taurine so you get best of both worlds since they are both inhibitory and they aslo have other synergetic effects that leave me at the moment. Hard to find, but highly recomend it. Ill have to look into ashwaganda

#10 kurt

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 11:48 AM

You might wanna add on some relaxing herbs like kava kava, passionflower, chamomile, hops, skullcap etc [thumb]

#11 opales

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:20 PM

You might wanna add on some relaxing herbs like kava kava, passionflower, chamomile, hops, skullcap etc [thumb]


Note that kava made consumer reports 12 dietary substances to avoid list, could put you to sleep for good:

http://www.consumerr...ts-to-avoid.htm

VERY LIKELY TO BE HAZARDOUS
Kava (Piper methysticum, ava, awa, gea, gi, intoxicating pepper, kao, kavain, kawa-pfeffer, kew, long pepper, malohu, maluk, meruk, milik, rauschpfeffer, sakau, tonga, wurzelstock, yagona, yangona)

Abnormal liver function or damage, occasionally irreversible; deaths reported.

FDA warning to consumers in March 2002. Banned in Canada, Germany, Singapore, South Africa, and Switzerland.


Nighty night, sleep tight..

#12 xanadu

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:57 PM

The report on kava is based on bad batches. Unscrupulous manufacturors included the above ground parts of the kava plant along with the roots to save money. The above ground portions are toxic and never used by natives. The native people who used kava used it for generations in very heavy amounts and did not have liver problems. It was the bad batches which caused problems.

That report also blasts scullcap and camomile which have been used for centuries.

#13 opales

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:47 PM

The report on kava is based on bad batches. Unscrupulous manufacturors included the above ground parts of the kava plant along with the roots to save money. The above ground portions are toxic and never used by natives. The native people who used kava used it for generations in very heavy amounts and did not have liver problems. It was the bad batches which caused problems.

That report also blasts scullcap and camomile which have been used for centuries.


For me it's pretty much irrelevant what caused the deaths and liver failures, as long as the problem clearly was not a one time deal never to happen again. I just don't see that quality problems etc. would suddenly go away with, well, any supplement.

#14 kurt

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 09:58 AM

Exactly what I wanted to say, xanadu. We need to see the full picture...

#15 scottl

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:42 AM

ACtually was just reading about Kava in Kurtzweil's book. Has to do with genetic variations in p450 those with one genetic variation don't metabolize the stuff well. In any case gotta agree with opales there are enough choices no need to use that.

#16 kottke

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 07:04 PM

Would it be safe to combine tianeptine with Kava Kava since tianeptine is not primarily metabolised by the hepatic cytochrome P450 system. The herb is also oraganicly grown and has gone through rigorous tests at the GAIA herbs facility on site where its grown. Even though those liver failures are rare i dont want to be that lucky.

#17

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:16 PM

[quote]

Someone recommended the Magnesium Citrate and L-Theanine. I will give them both a try. L-Theanine is kind of hard to find locally. I guess I will have to order online.[/quote]


Wouldn't dismiss the L-tryptophan or 5-HTP idea. Note that milk & turkey are both fairly high in tryptophan and are undoubtedly the primary reason that many ppl feel somewhat sleepy after ingesting warm milk or a large amount of turkey. Note that tryptophan and 5-HPT are precursors for the neurotransmitter, serotonin. Seratonin and endogenous melatonin are both major players for normal sleep.

I suspect that the primary reason that the FDA banned L-tryptophan for a while was because it worked so well that it was perceived as a threat to that sale of more costly prescription sleep aids.


As I mentioned before, if you are trying to wake up during stage 2, 3 or 4 sleep, you will undoubtedly feel very tired. The same thing may also hold true for stage 1 sleep (which usually only happens twice during a normal night of sleep). The following graphic should give you a better idea of your own sleep cycles:

Posted Image

http://web.umr.edu/~...ages/cycles.gif[/quote]

There is a known toxicity to using tryptophan which I can only find a reference to if I google the metabolic waste products that indicate a vitamin b6 deficiency. If tryptophan is not metabolized then these acids appear in the urine. These are indications of tryptophan's toxicity. I don't mean to harp on this issue of toxicity but I don't feel that using tryptophan or 5htp is a good idea unless directed by a qualified medical professional.

But this is the best explanation that I know of.

Niacinamide-adenine dinucleotide (NAD) is an active enzyme that is required for the proper function of vital areas of the brain. In schizophrenia, there appears to be a failure to deliver enough NAD to the brain. Vitamin b3 is required for the transformation of tryptophan, an amino acid, into NAD. If there is a niacin deficiency, this necessary transformation of trypotphan into NAD is inhibited, and there is not only a NAD deficiency established, but there is also an overload of tryptophan in the brain’s chemistry. Tryptophan is considered to be one of the most toxic of amino acids. An overload of it in the brain can be very harmful, especially if it is not properly converted into NAD, because it can cause undesirable perceptual and mood changes. If there is a b3 deficiency, for whatever reason, the consequent NAD deficiency will lead to ever-increasing tryptophan overload uninterruptedly unless and until the proper levels of b3 are given.

Pyridoxine, or vitamin b6, is used in the treatment of cerebral allergies by many Orthomolecular physicians. There is clinical evidence that pyridoxine is involved in the tryptophan-niacin metabolism previously explained. Morever, b6 is a precursor to over 60 enzyme reactions, is necessary for the proper metabolism of all amino acids, and is required for the maintenance of a stable immunologic system.

Source: Brain Allergies: The Psychonutrient Connection by William H. Philpott, MD and Dwight K. Kalita, Ph.D.

My point is that if tryptophan has this toxicity why would anyone feel they are deficient in this amino acid. They would have to have a protein deficiency or a problem with breaking down proteins into peptides and then into amino acids. Either problem would be corrected by something other than tryptophan. Yeah, I know all that stuff about the blood brain barrier, and how much tyrptophan gets to the brain, yada yada yada, but I still see that if your body really needs tryptophan it can catabolize it from some place else. I don't think those arguments justify using something that causes brain toxicity.

Using tryptophan or 5htp should be done with the understanding that it can cause toxicity to your brain especially if you are not getting enough vitamin b6 and niacin. Taking tryptophan at night is not looking for an increase in serotonin but increasing melatonin. That is a much too roundabout way for me. Just take the melatonin instead.

To increase serotonin levels and possibly some other neurotransmitter levels, you are better off supplementing b6 and niacin.

And actually since I have been supplementing vitamin b6 I noticed I sleep more soundly. If you have any problems remembering your dreams in the morning this might indicate a b6 deficiency. It may be possible that you are missing ONE thing or a couple of nutrients.

Inositol is interesting in large doses. It helps with OCD and trich (hair pulling problems). I tried this stuff and he seemed to do some good for me but that high a dose (heaping teaspoon in water) caused me diarrhea and some GI noises I would rather avoid. It might help with sleep I don't know, but I think it is generally safe in high doses.

Magensium is always good too.

I found theonine gave me a calming effect. I never tried at night though.

#18 DukeNukem

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:35 PM

Nothing beats melatonin. I take LEF's 7.5mg time-release caps every night, one hour before I need to sleep. I always sleep deeply, and have vivid dreams.

#19 doug123

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 09:03 PM

7.5 mg! That's a HUGE dose, bro. I'm not saying that will hurt you...but I'm curious; how much melatonin does the body naturally secrete each night?

#20 kottke

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 09:38 PM

I'm sold

#21 DukeNukem

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:36 PM

Noot,

Melatonin has been heavily researched by a doctor in Italy, I believe, and he sees it as one of the most important anti-aging sups you can take, as it slows down aging of the pineal gland. There are literally dozens of papers on this, like:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....6&dopt=Abstract

#22 doug123

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:41 PM

Cool. I'm not up to date on the research on melatonin. Thank you for the link.

#23 doug123

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:18 PM

I'm sold


Going once, going twice, gone! [lol]

#24 Pablo M

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 01:06 AM

400mg of Magnesium Citrate and 200mg L-Theanine are my non-addictive uber-sleep combo.  Theanine in particular has been shown to improve quality of sleep and mood upon awakening in healthy volunteers... but don't underestimate the magnesium.

Question, funk: does that mean 400mg of magnesium citrate or 400mg of magnesium from magnesium citrate?

#25 neuroenhanced

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 07:27 AM

Ramelteon works great for me and has an interesting mood boosting effect in the morning.

#26 systemicanomaly

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Posted 10 September 2006 - 01:41 PM

Nothing beats melatonin.  I take LEF's 7.5mg time-release caps every night, one hour before I need to sleep.  I always sleep deeply, and have vivid dreams.



Melatonin, even in very small doses (0.5-1mg), generates too muc of a 'grog' factor in the morning for moi. Many ppl (a significant % of the population), report trouble waking up in the morning (too groggy) after supplementing with melatonin the night before. I know other ppl that take more than 6mg & report no sleep-inducing effect at all. Since the digestive system is not the normal pathway for hormones, such as melatonin, this could account, in part, for individual sensitivity to the stuff. Individual's brain chemistry and other factors also come into play.

Note that trytophan, an amino acid, is a precursor for seratonin, melatonin and niacin (B6 enzyme is needed for this from what I've read). Note that trytophan, like 5-HTP are able to cross the blood-brain-barrier.

It's been quite a few years since I've used tryp, 5-HTP or melatonin. The old-fashion warm milk trick seems to do it for me most of the time. I do not recall either tryptophan or 5-HTP having that undesireable moring 'grog' effect on me at all.

Since it appears that melatonin has many health benefits, esp for those who don't naturally produce much of it, then it may be a wise choice for many. If residual melatonin lurking in the bloodstream at the start of your day is not hindering you, then this may be the choice for you. Sublingual melatonin might be another way to go, if other melatonin supps don't get you to sleep.

#27 kenj

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Posted 10 September 2006 - 06:15 PM

5-HTP OR time released melatonin are the top dogs in sleeping aids, and 5-HTP, despite being somewhat controversial in the life extension "community", is my pick a few times/weekly (25-75mg) around dinnertime and also when needed, - it helps me with a greater physical satiety on less food, deeper, more sound sleep with clear dream recall, and being more optimistic, focused and appreciating my social relations in my daily life. Well, that's my *subjectively* perceived effects from elevated serotonin in the brain: from my understanding serotonin is a modulator, used throughout the body, not just in the brain or gut, so I figure maintaining an adequate (not an excess) raw material intake for serotonin production would provide an anti-aging/anti-stress "effect" throughout the body, superior to any stress inhibitor/adaptogen.
5-HTP in larger dosing can cause nausea due to a local effect on the stomach or tiredness (especially with a heavier (high-glycemic) carb intake, but also depending on levels of other neurotransmitters) but it works for me on and off at 25-75mg. I do not take it everyday.
For insomnia, I would take 100-200mg around bedtime for several days/weeks with a B complex, vitamin C, magnesium, calcium, zinc and perhaps some sedative herbs in low dosing. Also, I'd adress any other factor, that would interfere with a good nights sleep: prescription drugs, excess caffeine and sugar, hypoglycemia, food allergies.

#28 jagged

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:01 PM

Tryptophan was never completely banned for sale, just for importation which had a similar effect. The problem with EMS was most likely due to a contaminated batch.

In 1989, a large outbreak of a new, disabling, and in some cases deadly autoimmune illness called eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS) was traced to L-tryptophan. The bacterial culture used to synthesize tryptophan by a major Japanese manufacturer, Showa Denko KK, had recently been genetically engineered to increase tryptophan production; with the higher tryptophan concentration in the culture medium, the purification process had also been streamlined to reduce costs, and a purification step that used charcoal absorption to remove impurities had been omitted. This allowed another bacterial metabolite through the purification, resulting in the presence of an end-product contaminant responsible for the toxic effects. The FDA was unable to establish with certainty that this was the sole cause of the outbreak. Tryptophan was banned from sale in the US, and other countries followed suit.

Though it is indisputable that Showa Denko KK did produce and sell a contaminated batch of L-tryptophan, there are some concerns [2] that the FDA's handling of this accident unfairly favoured the pharmaceutical industry and the new antidepressant Prozac if only because of its curiously fortuitous timing. The March 22, 1990 ban on public sale of L-tryptophan came only four days before the media announcement of Prozac on March 26, 1990 in Newsweek magazine [3]. Both L-tryptophan and Prozac affect serotonin in the brain, though in different ways, and were promising in the treatment of depression. At the time of the ban the FDA did not know, or did not indicate, that EMS was caused by a contaminated batch [4], and yet even when the contamination was discovered and the process fixed, the FDA maintained that L-tryptophan was unsafe. In February 2001 the FDA loosened the restrictions on marketing (though not on importation), but still expressed the following concern:

    "Based on the scientific evidence that is available at the present time, we cannot determine with certainty that the occurrence of EMS in susceptible persons consuming L-tryptophan supplements derives from the content of L-tryptophan, an impurity contained in the L-tryptophan, or a combination of the two in association with other, as yet unknown, external factors." [5].


http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tryptophan

I also use LEF's sublingual melatonin to help sleep. Usually 1/2 a pill of the 3mg helps. If you are worried about being sleepy in the morning, don't use timerelease. Melatonin is a nice, inexpensive alternative.

#29 systemicanomaly

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:15 PM

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#30 systemicanomaly

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:16 PM

Tryptophan was never completely banned for sale, just for importation which had a similar effect. The problem with EMS was most likely due to a contaminated batch...

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tryptophan

I also use LEF's sublingual melatonin to help sleep. Usually 1/2 a pill of the 3mg helps. If you are worried about being sleepy in the morning, don't use timerelease. Melatonin is a nice, inexpensive alternative.


Actually, according to the link you provided, it appears that the was a a total ban for some period of time. That link references other links that yield further details. One of these is the following (from a 1995 article):

http://www.ceri.com/trypto.htm

This link indicates that Trypto was recalled in the Fall of '89 followed by a total ban in March of '90... just 4 days before the media announcement of Prozac. The Wiki link indicates that the FDA did not loosen Trypto restrictions until Feb 2001. (Caveat: Altho' Wiki references provide a great deal of useful info, they should not be considered infallible or error-free. The same thing can be said of message boards and other sources, even Ceri).


I've never used time-released melatonin, yet I've still had problems with grogginess in the mornings whenever I've used melatonin supplements (ever with sublingual dosages of less than 1mg).




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