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#1 Michael

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 09:07 PM


All:

First, everyone knows about my "soft" conflict of interest in saying anything about supplements, right? IF not, see the disclaimer posted here and elsewhere. Please do not quote on this forum; I'm trying to avoid being readily G00glable ...

My general advice on building a supplement program is also enclosed in that post; an older, but generally-sound, summary is here, and a more readable, but somewhat restricted (by its venue and nature) article is available here. Edit: I wrote a much better post on supplementation heuristic in 2008, to which I commend your attention rather than the above -- (2011-02-21)

Please do note the importance of actually using nutrition software to get a handle on your DIETARY intake of nutrients before deciding what to supplement, tho' this is less of an issue to the extent that your diet is POOR (& thus more likely to actually need 'everything' and not be overdosing on eg Mn, Cu, etc) and you're not on CR (and thus have a lot of 'slop factor' and don't have the specific nutritional risks of CR folk).

I should add that this is a regimen for a very specific individual: a very healthy, young(ish) CR practitioner with an excellent diet. As the links above indicate, a person must customize hir regimen based on diet, age, specific risk factors and existing diseases, etc.

Some of you will have seen previous versions of my personal regimen privately. If you've seen several previous iterations, you've observed that the changes tended to be very small -- something dropped here, something added there, a tweak to a dose. This latest represents a relatively large change. This has been prompted by 2 main things.

First, thanks to the advent of CRON-o-Meter, I've been getting much better feedback about my diet, because (a) I use it much more often (since (1) it actually works on the Mac, and (2) it is much more easy to use than the only other reaosnable alternative for Mac users ((Nutritiondata)), and because (b) it's in various ways more accurate than most of the competition. As a result, I've come to worry less about potential deficiencies, and worry MORE about overdosing on various nutrients: regular use has convinced me that I'm getting so much of so much in my diet that a lot of my supplementation was unnecessary and -- on the "precautionary principle", backed up by multiple known examples (zinc, retinol, synthetic beta-carotene, unbalanced alpha-tocopherol, manganese, etc etc) -- might well turn out to do harm.

The biggest single outcome of this first factor: I now take no classic multivitamin, and only 1 cap of a 7-cap multimineral.

Second, I've become much more skeptical about the potential benefits of supplement use for things OTHER than for avoiding deficiency, and PROVEN benefits from long-term trials in humans (eg, strontium for bone health); eg, the failure of many antioxidants and other goodies to have any lifespan bennies in the LEF LifeSpan studies ((1), and unpublished data from Weindruch and from Spindler; also, (1) found a creepy buildup of an unidentified crystalline material that builds up in the heart of animals fed large amounts of CoQ); the fact that R(+)-LA had many benefits in old animals but none in young ones in the Hagen/Ames studies (and even a DETRIMENT in the case of ALCAR, tho' the result appears for various reasons to be irrelevant to realistic human use) (2); and the more alarming finding that while CoQ supplementation helped to alleviate the cognitive deficits observed in old animals (as they had previously reported (3), animals who started on it at younger ages received no protection from it (4) ; I'm guessing that this is related to the highly-regulated REDOX poise in the youthful, and (at best) a homeostatic re-balancing of any reduction in oxidative stress in the youthful or (at worst) some BUGGERING of REDOX poise resulting from this.

Combine this with the lack of actual long-term studies in healthy humans for any of this stuff -- and, indeed, in many cases the lack of long-term studies in healthy RODENTS! -- and I've cut back on, or sworn off, a lot of stuff, esp "antioxidants."

So: the regimen (notes on WHY I take various things at the end, when it isn’t obvious from the link or other grounds):

UPON WAKING (5 AM or before):
With 1/3 c pomegranate juice + 1/2 C cherry-vanilla diet Dr. Pepper:
2 Vegetarian Booster
227 mg Strontium
1 AGE Amadori (I've just discovered that you can get AGE Amadori outside of Canada here. You would have to do so at your own risk, however.).

(Upon swallowing the above):
1 mg methylcobalamin, sublingually

5:40 AM, with water:
1 x 500 mg Arginine
1 Defined pollen extract (not bee pollen)

6:30 AM, breakfast:
15 mg menatetrenone

After breakfast, while scrubbing teeth:
1 drop per eye N-acetyl-L-carnosine eyedrops

10:30 AM, with green tea:
Brain nutrient (rotating one of: 800 mg piracetam (once/wk), pyroglutamate (500 mg, thrice/wk) and Turbo Tyro Tea (to provide tyrosine (4 g) & phenylalanine (800 mg) - this is not yet commercially available) (thrice/wk)
1 Benfotiamine
15 mg Zn, twice weekly

11:10 AM, with green tea:
500 mg carnosine

11:50 AM, with green tea:
500 mg lysine, 500 mg arginine (no, these do not interfere with one another's effects for this application).
1 AGE-Amadori

12:30 PM, lunch:
1 Chlorofresh
Alternate-day citicoline
1 mg lithium (I just do my best to spread the contents of a 5 mg cap evenly over 5 days)

4:30, with water:
1 IP-6
1 Inositol (possibly synergistic to IP-6)

5:10, with water:
1 tsp OrthoMethyl
1 EGCG-Max
1 carnosine

5:50, with water:
500 mg arginine
1 defined pollen extract
1 AGE-Amadori

6:30, dinner:
7.5 mg menatetrenone
800 IU vitamin D
Twice weekly: 200 mcg Se, as Se-methylselenocysteine

10 pm, bed, with water:
1 complete multimineral
1 AGE-Amadori
1 Veg Booster
3 g glycine

Pomegranate juice: I want SOME source of relatively high-GI sugar without protein or fat to get glucose levels up first thing on rising, and for the possible benefit of taking creatine with a sugar source (tho' it's not at alll clear that this is anything like enough glucose to meaningfully affect this); I chose pom juice for the many promising-looking studies in disease states, tho' again the dose may be inadequate (studies typically use 1-2 C). Don't blow your bucks on POM Wonderful: Trader Joe's has it reasonably cheap, as does BCS Royal (a hard-to-find brand I sometimes find at a local Asian grocery store; the label is good for a giggle (it comes from Georgia (the former Commjnist country, not the state), and the label clearly shows that they have no native English speakers on board ;) ).

The diet Dr. Pepper is 'cause I like it and it has zero Calories. No, I am not worried about aspartame (or sucralose, for that matter). Indeed, the recent, much-hyped report of increased cancer in aspartame-dosed rodents (14) actually made me LESS nervous about aspartame: it (a) really didn't clearly show any increased risk, and (b) reported IDENTICAL survival curves between treated and untreated animals (if anything, it looked like females given the highest dose lived LONGER on average than untreated animals).

Veg Booster: I'm ovolacto for my quotidian diet, tho' I eat meat once a month.

Strontium: low BMD associated with natural- and CR-induced low BMI; fracture risk factor, tho' CR appears to preserve bone QUALITY.

Defined pollen extract: I have an idiopathic urinary urgency; definitely not BPH or bacterial prostatitis, conceivably related to alpha-adrenergic function. This is subjectively very helpful.

Menatetrenone: as with strontium. All the more likely useful for CR-related low bone mass, as the actual MASS of bone is constrained by energy intake, so preseving QUALITY becomes a more likely viable strategy.

Arginine and lysine: these have been found to be surprisingly effective in reducing AGE and AGE-induced complications of diabetes, especially in the kidneys but also apparently in the heart (5-12). (11) justifies my total dose of just 2 g. (13) was negative, but the measurement of AGE was in skin, which not be reached by a significant concentration of these nutrients (vs the heart and kidneys, thru’ which they would of course travel in the blood when they’re taken on an empty stomach) (tho’ (11) did find reductions in hexosyllysine), and their conclusion was (reasonably) that “treatment may need to continue for more than 1 year before clinical status improves.”

Carnosine: possibly anti-senescent cell, possibly anti-mitochondrially-mutant cell; deficient in vegetarian diet.

Chlorofresh: protection from liver precancerous lesions documented in clinical trial (15), tho' this is less likely relevant in developed countries with low aflatoxin exposure.

Zinc: my regular diet includes what should be quite adequate zinc, but my copper intake is so high that it induces a secondary deficiency (most people are more likely to have the converse problem); this was mildly symptomatic for much of the year for several years, and even the 7 mg/d in the Veg Booster isn't quite enough to keep it at bay.

The glycine is mostly for sleep quality (16).

I take the multimineral when I do based on evidence that Ca taken just before bed is better at preventing resorption, tho’ the studies justifying this use significantly higher doses and I have strong doubts that <200 mg will replicate this effect.

-Michael

[Edits: Added emphasis to customize based on personal situatioin; added use of N-acetylcarnosine eyedrops].

1: Lee CK, Pugh TD, Klopp RG, Edwards J, Allison DB, Weindruch R, Prolla TA. The impact of alpha-lipoic acid, coenzyme Q10 and caloric restriction on life span and gene expression patterns in mice. Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Apr 15;36(8):1043-57. PMID: 15059645 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Hagen TM, Moreau R, Suh JH, Visioli F. Mitochondrial decay in the aging rat heart: evidence for improvement by dietary supplementation with acetyl-L-carnitine and/or lipoic acid. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2002 Apr;959:491-507. Review. PMID: 11976222 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. McDonald SR, Sohal RS, Forster MJ. Concurrent administration of coenzyme Q10 and alpha-tocopherol improves learning in aged mice. Free Radic Biol Med. 2005 Mar 15;38(6):729-36. PMID: 15721983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. Forster MJ. COENZYME Q10 AND ALPHA-TOCOPHEROL: CAN THEY IMPROVE BRAIN FUNCTION WHEN SUPPLEMENTED IN LATE LIFE? American Aging Association - 34th Annual Meeting AGING: MECHANISMS AND PREVENTION June 3-6, 2005 Oakland, CA, USA Abstract book pg 1--11
http://www.americana...ral/forster.pdf

5. Lubec B, Golej J, Marx M, Weninger M, Hoeger H. L-arginine reduces kidney lipid peroxidation, glycoxidation and collagen accumulation in the aging NMRI mouse. Ren Physiol Biochem. 1995 Mar-Apr;18(2):97-102. PMID: 7539539 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6: Geogescu A, Popov D. Age-dependent accumulation of advanced glycatin endproducts is accelerated in combined hyperlipidemia and hyperglycemia, a process attenuated by L-arginine. J Amer Aging Assoc. 2000 Jan;23(1):23-30.

7. Weninger M, Xi Z, Lubec B, Szalay S, Hoger H, Lubec G. L-arginine reduces glomerular basement membrane collagen N epsilon-carboxymethyllysine in the diabetic db/db mouse. Nephron. 1992;62(1):80-3. PMID: 1436297

8. Radner W, Hoger H, Lubec B, Salzer H, Lubec G. L-arginine reduces kidney collagen accumulation and N-epsilon-(carboxymethyl)lysine in the aging NMRI-mouse. J Gerontol. 1994 Mar;49(2):M44-6. PMID: 8126351 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

9. Sensi M, De Rossi MG, Celi FS, Cristina A, Rosati C, Perrett D, Andreani D, Di Mario U. D-lysine reduces the non-enzymatic glycation of proteins in experimental diabetes mellitus in rats. Diabetologia. 1993 Sep;36(9):797-801. PMID: 8405749 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

10. Khaidar A, Marx M, Lubec B, Lubec G. L-arginine reduces heart collagen accumulation in the diabetic db/db mouse. Circulation. 1994 Jul;90(1):479-83. PMID: 8026034 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

11. Lubec G, Vierhapper H, Bailey AJ, Damjancic P, Fasching P,Sims TJ, Kampel1 D, Popow C, Bartosch B. Influence of L-arginine on glucose mediated collagen cross link precursors in patients with diabetes mellitus Amino Acids. 1991 Feb;1(1):73 – 80.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/BF00808093

12. Jyothirmayi GN, Modak R, Reddi AS. L-lysine reduces nonenzymatic glycation of glomerular basement membrane collagen and albuminuria in diabetic rats. Nephron. 2001 Feb;87(2):148-54. PMID: 11244310 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

13. Contreras I, Reiser KM, Martinez N, Giansante E, Lopez T, Suarez N, Postalian S, Molina M, Gonzalez F, Sanchez MR, Camejo M, Blanco MC. Effects of aspirin or basic amino acids on collagen cross-links and complications in NIDDM. Diabetes Care. 1997 May;20(5):832-5. PMID: 9135951

14. Soffritti M, Belpoggi F, Degli Esposti D, Lambertini L, Tibaldi E, Rigano A. First experimental demonstration of the multipotential carcinogenic effects of aspartame administered in the feed to Sprague-Dawley rats. Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Mar;114(3):379-85. PMID: 16507461 [PubMed - in process]

15. Egner PA, Wang JB, Zhu YR, Zhang BC, Wu Y, Zhang QN, Qian GS, Kuang SY, Gange SJ, Jacobson LP, Helzlsouer KJ, Bailey GS, Groopman JD, Kensler TW. Chlorophyllin intervention reduces aflatoxin-DNA adducts in individuals at high risk for liver cancer. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2001 Dec 4;98(25):14601-6. Epub 2001 Nov 27. PMID: 11724948 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

16: Inagawa K, Hiraoka T, Kohda T, Yamadera W, Takahashi M Subjective effects of glycine ingestion before bedtime on sleep quality Sleep and Biological Rhythms.2006 Fe;4(1):75-7.
http://dx.doi.org/10...25.2006.00193.x

Edited by Michael, 21 February 2011 - 09:57 PM.


#2 zoolander

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:11 PM

Thanks for posting Micheal. It would be nice to see more of you.

I know exactly what you are talking regarding keeping tabs on what you eat. I do not use any computer software and would consider myself fairly organised and a good eater. Like you I am vegetarian so I take extra care. I had an FBE a month back and my iron was 27 (norm 30-300). I'd hate to think what my other mineral levels are looking like.

Fortunately I have access to some pretty good nutritional software that I use to analyse the nutrient content of my subjects. Funny that, I have time to analyse their data but not mine.

Anyhow, this is about your regime. I have a few questions.

1. What are you goals?
2. What percentage of the time do you CR? How does this work in a social environment? For example, when your having "dinner" at a friends house.
3. What type of green tea do you use? I am not referring to the brand. I am referring to the type. For example, I use Long Jing (DragonWell) and/or silver tip

Once again, thanks

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#3 Pablo M

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:06 AM

Without quoting, guyincognito, I will ask a few questions:

I thought you were the one who wrote that a person should definitely NOT take IP6 and inositol at the same time. ??

Re 1 mg of lithium from a 5mg capsule: Since OrthoCore is in a sense your baby, do you have anything against it? Is there any reason not to take a full dose of it? This would provide 1mg of lithium and make your RDA calculating a bit less pressing.

I assume you are using organic sencha, guyincog. Know any good online Canadian sources?

Edited by Pablo M, 07 July 2006 - 06:28 PM.


#4 Michael

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:58 AM

All:

I do not use any computer software and would consider myself fairly organised and a good eater. Like you I am vegetarian so I take extra care. Fortunately I have access to some pretty good nutritional software that I use to analyse the nutrient content of my subjects. Funny that, I have time to analyse their data but not mine.

Please do use it; you'll be doing yourself a big favor. Also (and PM me if this is private), who are your "subjects"?

1. What are you goals?

Er ... that's rather a big question. If you just mean, "what are my goals with my supplement regimen": well, to help ensure that I live a long and healthy life. But that is presumably obvious. So do you want my 10- or 1000 yr plan, or ...?

2. What percentage of the time do you CR?

99.99976 ;)

How does this work in a social environment? For example, when your having "dinner" at a friends house.

Something similar to what I expect you do as a vegaetarian. I bring my own food, or make special arrangements with the cook (eg, portion out and weigh the veggies & turkey breast before s/he puts sauces on them - this is often how I use my monthly meat serving), or arrange to do something other than have dinner in the first place, or whatever.

3. What type of green tea do you use? I am not referring to the brand. I am referring to the type.

Organic Japanese sencha. This is by far the most clearly-supported from an epidemiological POV: the studies in China are quite inconsistent, weheas an effect is pretty clearly observed at > 7 "cups" (these 'cups' may well be 150 mL Japanese teacups, however) of sencha/d.

I thought you were the one who wrote in an ... article that a person should definitely NOT take IP6 and inositol at the same time. ??

Can't imagine why I'd've said that, & don't think that I did. There are lots of things that one shouldn't take at the same time as IP6, of course: divalent minerals, notably.

Re 1 mg of lithium from a 5mg capsule: Since OrthoCore is in a sense your baby, do you have anything against it? Is there any reason not to take a full dose of it? This would provide 1mg of lithium and make your RDA calculating a bit less pressing.

As I said in the post to which you are responding,

First, thanks to the advent of CRON-o-Meter, I've been getting much better feedback about my diet ... As a result, I've come to worry less about potential deficiencies, and worry MORE about overdosing on various nutrients: regular use has convinced me that I'm getting so much of so much in my diet that a lot of my supplementation was unnecessary and  ... might well turn out to do harm.

The biggest single outcome of this first factor: I now take no classic multivitamin, and only 1 cap of a 7-cap multimineral.

Is there any reason not to take a full dose of it?

Virtually no one should take a full day's dose of any multivitamin. See above quote; see also the supplementation post that I linked originally. One should aim IMO for 1.5-10 DRIs of B vitamins, 1.5 DRI of most other things. Exceptions: do get *some* PREFORMED vitamin A (retinol), but keep under 2000 IU; and take 800-1000 IU vitamin D3. This meaens from diet and supplements COMBINED; unless your diet is Big Macs and fries with no ketchup, lettuce, and tomato, this means less than a full day's dose of a multi.

I assume you are using organic sencha, guyincog. Know any good online Canadian sources?

Not anymore :( . I DID have a GREAT Canadian source, who stopped responding to any attempt at communication months ago. I now get lovely green organic sencha at very reasonable prices frm Allie Fadden, Cooking Goddess -- but she is in the USA.

-Michael

#5 doug123

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:16 AM

Mike, I have not read your whole post on this topic, but want to let you know you've been an inspiration to me, and an excellent teacher too. Sorry about the old days. I hope you can share more of your wisdom here.

Adam

#6 zoolander

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:43 AM

Actaully, you efforts of late have been quite amazing to Adam. So I will commend you as well.

[thumb]

#7 scottl

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 03:37 AM

Hi Michael,

Good to see you here. If you have time, a few questions.

1. You probably know that while I have great respect for you...I come from a rather different place philosophically. My goals for myself (46 years old) and clients is not increased lifespan, but..."squaring the"...whatever..perhaps is the term i.e. remaining healthy as long as possible. I can't help wonder

A. if some of the supp decisions you are making in the name of increased longevity are attempting to promote long term health at the possible expense of short term "optimality". Obviously I can't quote references to support that just a feeling, though e.g. antioxidants do have known benefits even if zero benefit on lifespan.

B. Whether your thought processes would really apply to people in different situations e.g. people say over 40 or 50 (no idea how old you are) and more importantly people not doing CR since most of the world, even most of the world trying to live a heatlhy diet (and that includes me) ain't doing CR. e.g. certainly your needs are different then a diabetic, someone with heart disease, etc (all on reasonably healthy, but non-CR diets).

*Likewise and more relevant to this audience e.g. someone who does say 30 min cardio X 4 days/week and 1 hour of lifting weights X 3 days gotta have different/increased requirements.* (just a hunch, but I betya a quarter zinc is one)

2. How much vitamin C are you getting? (hard to figure out) e.g. I've been taking >=3 grams of ascorbate c/day for over 25 years.

3. ". One should aim IMO for 1.5-10 DRIs of B vitamins"

I wonder if 10 DRI of folic acid would be about right (4 mg I believe) ...how much folic acid would you put in e.g. if the gov't were not an issue? Weren't there some recent studies on the benefit of higher doses?

Edit: I wasn't thinking of homocysteine here, (not that that debate is settled) but e.g. prevention of colon ca, endometrial cancer, and here a recent trial preventing premalignant voicebox lesions from progressing:

http://www.scienceda...60612082419.htm

Point being that perhaps they would not heve developed this to begin with on higher maintenance folic acid. No proof, but folic is used in methylation which is important in rapidly dividing cells e.g. cells lining colon, uterus... and there is no downside (we'll assume people eat some meat or know enough to cover it so B-12 deficiency ain't an issue this discussion).

ya I've recently become aware of the issue with methylation and aging, but does anyone know that supplying higher doses of folic acid really worsens this? And this gets back to my first point above, unless you have good human data showing harm, I'll take my chances taking higher folic acid with the potential hit in lifespan for the possible benefit of decreased odds of certain cancers.


Oh and I wonder if women on the pill (how many in america?) have greater requirements also.

Thanks for your time.

Edited by scottl, 07 July 2006 - 08:28 PM.


#8 doug123

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 07:42 AM

I can't help wonder if some of the supp decisions you are making in the name of increased longevity are attempting to promote long term health at the possible expense of short term "optimality". 


I wonder about this issue myself -- also, some people I know who take medicines and/or supplements take them because they are physically "disabled" or otherwise unable to function "normally" without the aid of certain compounds.

*I still haven't read this whole topic yet...I will!

#9 Pablo M

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 11:59 PM

I guess I read the thing about inositol/IP6 somewhere else. Bill Sardi maybe?

I've just discovered that you can get AGE Amadori outside of Canada here. You would have to do so at your own risk, however.

The people at that store are, in my experience, highly incompetent. I would never trust them to ship me, for example, a 6 month supply of an expensive product like Ortho Methyl.

2. How much vitamin C are you getting? (hard to figure out) e.g. I've been taking >=3 grams of ascorbate c/day for over 25 years.

Yeah, I'm wondering that too, as it didn't look to me like you take any. An orthomolecular researcher/formulator who doesn't take vitamin C? Now I've seen everything.

#10 xanadu

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 12:19 AM

Michael, your views seem to be very carefully thought out. I don't follow a regimine quite like yours but I try for moderation, as you seem to be doing. I tend to shy away from megadoses of anything. I think people should try to find the right dose for themselves of each thing which might be zero for some items. It's interesting to see what each person thinks is important and why.

#11 ajnast4r

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 05:24 AM

cholorofresh has way too much free copper(especially if youre a vegetarian)... use LEF's version, low free-copper.

1mg/day methylb12 is too much if your not taking a multi vitamin or atleast a b complex...

#12 doug123

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 07:26 AM

The diet Dr. Pepper is 'cause I like it and it has zero Calories.



[lol] I hope Michael won't get angry at me for quoting that!

#13 opales

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 05:03 PM

1 EGCG-Max


Michael, what do you make of the quite a few reports of liver damage induced by green tea extracts...

http://www.imminst.o...hl=green tea&s=
http://www.imminst.o... tea extract&s=

...esp. since there are rodent studies showing the same effect [1]...
(pop press account on [1])
http://www.news.utor...060222-2077.asp
abstract [1]:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....7&dopt=Abstract

... and FDA has not been able to find convincing evidence of green tea helping in either heart disease or any type of cancer?

http://www.imminst.o...=0

[1] Cellular and in vivo hepatotoxicity caused by green tea phenolic acids and catechins. Galati G, Lin A, Sultan AM, O'Brien PJ. Free Radic Biol Med. 2006 Feb 15;40(4):570-80. Epub 2005 Nov 9. PMID: 16458187

Edited by opales, 08 July 2006 - 05:32 PM.


#14 ajnast4r

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 03:46 AM

opales, again nothing you have said gave any amounts, specifics on composition, extraction methods or purity of the supplement (as mentioned in most if not all post you have made bashing supplements). low quality green tea extracts can contain a number of contaminants, specifically heavy metals, as i have mentioned in countless other threads. even the studies u posted said they were not sure if it was actually the green tea causing the problems


and you quoting the FDA as a knowledable source of [ethical] nutritional information is sacrilege and you must be punished.

#15 opales

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 10:27 AM

opales, again nothing you have said gave any amounts, specifics on composition, extraction methods or purity of the supplement (as mentioned in most if not all post you have made bashing supplements). low quality green tea extracts can contain a number of contaminants, specifically heavy metals, as i have mentioned in countless other threads. even the studies u posted said they were not sure if it was actually the green tea causing the problems


I don't think it is customary to provide specifics unless there is something "unusual" about them, and you certainly can't blame me for it. If you really want to know more specifically feel free to contact the authors of the numerous reports provided. The way I see it, since the amounts etc. were not specifically mentioned, I think it is reasonable to assume that the liver damages were induced under "normal use".

Absolute causality is almost impossible to conclude due to retrospective nature of case reports, thus the cautious wordings in the reports. The fact that rodent studies (where quality issues are not likely to be present) have provided similar results IMO strongly suggests it is the green tea extract per se that is causing the problems.

Also, it is important to note that is is very likely these case reports consist only fairly small minority of the actual problem (impossible to quantify, could still be neglibly small percentage of people that are affected), due to lack of systematic follow-up etc. reasons I have mentioned in the threads provided.

and you quoting the FDA as a knowledable source of [ethical] nutritional information is sacrilege and you must be punished.


Spare me from the FDA conspiracy theories and whatnot. The FDA documents I provided were explicit of the reasons for arriving at the conclusions. I am not saying that they are absolutely right (especially if there is some more recent knowledge that was not covered), but I am certain their analysis was manyfold more rigorous than what most ImmInsters can boast. Michael might be an exception, that's why I am interested in his opinion. I do think it is possible FDA is too strict in allowing health claims, risk/benefit-wise.

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#16 ajnast4r

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 03:31 PM

I don't think it is customary to provide specifics unless there is something "unusual" about them, and you certainly can't blame me for it. If you really want to know more specifically feel free to contact the authors of the numerous reports provided. The way I see it, since the amounts etc. were not specifically mentioned, I think it is reasonable to assume that the liver damages were induced under "normal use".


i think its rediculous to asume it was under normal use... in fact i think it would be fair to say that the people who were hurt by it were probably trying to use it for weight loss and were consuming many times the recomnded amount. your typical water extract of green tea yields the amount of polyphenols that would be present in 2-3 cups of good quality green tea... it is literally NO different constitutionally than a cup of green tea. but when you start dealing with hexane or ethanol extractions(which is much cheaper in the long run), you pull out substances in the plant that would not normally be present in a cup of tea. also, werent the rats injected and not made to ingest? you cant inject a substance and asume it will function the same way as if it were ingested.


really you need the specifics and the details, especially extraction and administration of the studies to come to any sort of conclusions... and posting studies without these specifics with some sort of negative conotation is just bad science.




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