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Alex Chiu -- 'immortality device' = fake


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#31 peterragnar

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:23 PM

Dear Friends, I see that Alex Chiu has created quite a discussion. For what my two cents are worth, I get the impression we confuse Chiu with some interesting scientific research on magnetism. Science has been researching the power of magnetism and electricty since the days of Michael Faraday when he discovered the magnetic properties of dried blood. Later Linus Pauling, after begining work on magnetic properities of hemoglobin in the 1930s won him a Nobel Prize in 1954. Now I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that they don't give out Nobel Prizes on a bogus claim.

I've seen both hard core skeptics and true belivers exhibit knee-jerk reactions to things that do not fit with their field of investigation or pre-conceived ideas. This is quite natural, hence looking through my own bias, I can gladly provide an abundant amount of (boring) scientific research supporting the health benefits of magnetism. Now, with that being said, will it make you immortal? No! Does magnetism have health benefits? According to many studies, yes!

Health is about a lot of little things done for a long time. Rule one, don't get sick. Rule two, stay out of accidents. Rule three, don't die. I'll do anything I can not to get sick. Some things like DHEA, HGH, melatonin, and supplements added to my raw organic diet with a regular exercise program have yielded amazing results for this senior. Yes, I use magnets (not Mr. Chiu's), have a FAR sauna, juice raw veggies from my own garden etc. Meditate, use a brain entrainment unit, and practice keeping my mind sharp by memorizing decks of cards and license plates. To keep from boring you, the bottom line is that some things have great benefits, some have marginal benefits, so? There is no magic bullet (sorry Mr. Chiu), but the intention of an intelligent person can revolutionize the world!

#32 kevin

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:25 PM

nice post peter,

the intention of an intelligent person can revolutionize the world


I would insert '...and action' in there somewhere..

#33 Live Forever

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:42 PM

nice post peter,



I would insert '...and action' in there somewhere..


I would insert it after "intention" or else the sentence wouldn't make sense.

(just kidding around with you, of course)

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#34 kevin

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:52 PM

heh.. funny boy.. :)

although with my dyslexia everything sense makes.

#35 DJS

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:52 PM

peter

Science has been researching the power of magnetism and electricty since the days of Michael Faraday when he discovered the magnetic properties of dried blood. Later Linus Pauling, after begining work on magnetic properities of hemoglobin in the 1930s won him a Nobel Prize in 1954. Now I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that they don't give out Nobel Prizes on a bogus claim.


Peter, noone is denying that magnetism exists as a physical force in our universe. What is being denied is that magnetism possesses therapeutic properties. In order for such a belief to be established among rational agents a great deal of evidence (ie, "boring" scientific research) would need to be presented.

If you have scientific literature that you believe counts as evidence, then provided it. Otherwise, go fish. Quackery is met with strong resistence here at ImmInst. Immortalists are interested in developing real anti-aging medicine, not magnetic charm bracelets.
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#36 kevin

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 11:11 PM

Actually Don, transcranial magnetic stimulation is a form of therapy right now, for depression and I believe epilepsy. However, I do agree that it is hard to imagine magnetic fields of the strength presented in wearable magnets could have much effect..

but I would be interested in reading some boring literature that would show this to be wrong. :)

#37 jaydfox

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 11:38 PM

As far as "boring" scientific research (warning, this link will take you to the free speech area, so be prepared for objectionable material):
http://www.imminst.o...w=pid&pid=42751

#38 DJS

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:00 AM

Touché, Kevin. I didn't have neurophysiological disorders in mind (which involve electrical signaling), but it would make sense that some forms of magnetic brain stimulation could have positive effects. However, the functioning of the CNS is rather unique, and I couldn't imagine there being a cross over affect on other biological subsystems. IOW, I don't care how strong your magnets are, they are not going to magically clean up cellular damage and stop/reverse senescence -- it just doesn't make logical sense.

#39 jaydfox

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:07 AM

magically clean up cellular damage and stop/reverse senescence

Clean up, no. Stop/reverse, no.

However, they might affect production rates of metabolic byproducts, as evidenced by the study I linked to. Of course, could such an effect in bacteria translate very well into humans? Very unlikely, for a multitude of reasons. If anything, it'd be worth investigating the reasons why such a study would not translate well into humans, to be prepared for the day when Alex and his minions, or some other magnet peddler, decides to point to this study as "proof" of a physiological effect.

#40 DJS

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:12 AM

Jay

My take on the research: If magnetism were found to have such a ROS-production inhibiting effect in other reactions besides photosynthesis (oh, say, in mitochondria), then Chiu's rings might have a beneficial effect on the rate of senescence in the proximal phalanx of the fifth metacarpal... Err, your pinky might live longer. Maybe your ring finger too, since the magnetic field would presumably exist on both sides of the magnetic ring.


Jay, so you're saying that, if I wear a full body "magneto" outfit, there's a chance I could reduce ROS production within my body and decrease the rate of senescence?

If magnetism were found to have such a ROS-production inhibiting effect in other reactions besides photosynthesis


Big IF. I've never seen any studies remotely supporting this conclusion.

#41 DJS

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:13 AM

heh, we're cross-posting each other. :)

#42 kevin

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:43 AM

heh.. I understand the desire to nip any Chiu 'wanna bees' in the bud but I don't think that you're giving the potential of magnetic therapy for at least some purpose a completely fair hearing..



Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....2&dopt=Citation



Double-blind placebo-controlled trial of static magnets for the treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee: results of a pilot study.

Wolsko PM, Eisenberg DM, Simon LS, Davis RB, Walleczek J, Mayo-Smith M, Kaptchuk TJ, Phillips RS.

Division for Research and Education, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA.

CONTEXT: Outpatient clinical studies of magnet therapy, a complementary therapy commonly used to treat osteoarthritis (OA), have been limited by the absence of a credible placebo control. OBJECTIVE: Our objective was to assess the feasibility and promise of studying static magnetic therapy for knee OA and determine the ability of a new placebo-magnet device to provide concealment of group assignment. DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Academic teaching hospital in Boston. PARTICIPANTS: We enrolled 29 subjects with idiopathic or post-traumatic OA of the knee. INTERVENTIONS: Subjects received either high-strength magnetic (active) or placebo-magnetic (placebo) knee sleeve treatment for 4 hours in a monitored setting and self-treatment 6 hours daily for 6 weeks. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Primary outcomes were change in knee pain as measured by the WOMAC Osteoarthritis Index Pain Subscale at 6 weeks and extent of group concealment at study end. RESULTS: At 4 hours, VAS pain scores (+/- SE) on a 5-item scale (0-500, 500 worst) decreased 79 +/- 18 mm in the active group and 10 +/- 21 mm in the placebo group (P < 0.05). There were no significant differences in any primary or secondary measure of efficacy between the treatment groups at 6 weeks. Despite widespread testing for magnetic properties, at study end, 69% of the active group and 77% of the placebo group (P > 0.2) believed that they had been assigned to the active treatment group. CONCLUSION: Despite our small sample size, magnets showed statistically significant efficacy compared to placebo after 4 hours under rigorously controlled conditions. The sustained efficacy of magnetic therapy for knee osteoarthritis could be assessed in an adequately powered trial utilizing an appropriate control such our new placebo-magnet device.



Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....4&dopt=Abstract



Ostomy Wound Manage. 1998 May;44(5):24-9. Related Articles, Links

Use of magnet therapy to heal an abdominal wound: a case study.

Szor JK, Topp R.

Toledo Hospital, Ohio, USA.

Complementary therapies, in particular magnet therapy, may have benefits to offer in healing chronic wounds. This case study involves a 51 year old paraplegic woman with an abdominal wound that had been present for one year. Traditional approaches to wound care had not achieved complete healing. Prior to surgical intervention, the patient consented to the application of magnet therapy over her usual wound dressing. In one month, the wound completely healed. On the basis of this case, further investigation of magnet therapy for wound healing appears to be warranted.


Link: http://www.stopithur...eintraub736.pdf


this was was for a diabetic neuropathy pain study that showed a statistically significant reduction in pain after three-four months of wearing magnetic insoles.

--------------------

Now there are LOTS of studies which show no effect for various disorders that magnets have been claimed effective for, carpal tunnel, hormonal hot flashes etc etc.. but it seems that at least from these studies that in some cases.. magnets can relieve some pain. This is a far cry from all the hype that they get though and there's a lot more B.S. out there than truth. I would however say that it is a bit premature to rule out any benefit to magnetic therapy period.

Edited by Kevin Perrott, 26 April 2006 - 03:55 AM.


#43 DJS

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:19 AM

I don't think that you're giving the potential of magnetic therapy for at least some purpose a completely fair hearing..


How do you arrive at that conclusion? I said that my starting position is one of extreme skepticism. I think that is reasonable enough. Present me with solid evidence and my position can and often does soften.

However, even if there was evidence for magnetic treatments, the question that would immediately come to mind for me is, "why is it working, what is the mechanism?"

#44 DJS

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:28 AM

magnets can relieve some pain


Oh, and again -- pain, migraines, epilepsy, depression -- all involve CNS function, which I view as a very different animal from other bio-molecular processes in the body.

Ostomy Wound Manage. 1998 May;44(5):24-9. Related Articles, Links

Use of magnet therapy to heal an abdominal wound: a case study.

Szor JK, Topp R.

Toledo Hospital, Ohio, USA.

Complementary therapies, in particular magnet therapy, may have benefits to offer in healing chronic wounds. This case study involves a 51 year old paraplegic woman with an abdominal wound that had been present for one year. Traditional approaches to wound care had not achieved complete healing. Prior to surgical intervention, the patient consented to the application of magnet therapy over her usual wound dressing. In one month, the wound completely healed. On the basis of this case, further investigation of magnet therapy for wound healing appears to be warranted.


Circumstantial, inconclusive, etc.

#45

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 05:13 AM

Good grief.. Although there were only 26 (3 left) patients it was a legitimate study. Eisenberg is a professor at Harvard. The results, whilst statistically significant, were not compelling but certainly warrant another study.

Who would like to take an educated guess on the mechanism behind this phenomenon?

#46 John Schloendorn

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 06:46 AM

it seems that at least from these studies that in some cases.. magnets can relieve some pain


I completely disagree and warn against encouraging blind belief in "significance".

The problem is of course the low p. Assuming that there is no true effect, only 14 people need to try such a study, fail and shut up to make a >50 % chance that one of them find by random error p<0.05 and does not shut up. More likely is of course that one or very few investigators simply try enough times under slightly different conditions, do not mention the failed attempts and write such a study once they are lucky. A similar trick is to use many sub-measures and claim an effect when only one of them goes above 0.05. Again, with only 14 items being measured, one can expect one significant p by random error. (the abstract does not tell us whether this happened in the study cited) When the any of the above are combined, of course they synergize...

Ergo, this treatment needs to make the same move that any treatment makes after passing a small sample size test: Move to a larger sample size. This is the precise reason we go through all the trouble with phase II and III trials. The fact that magnet therapy claimed p<0.05s for decades and never moved on in fact strongly suggests that there is *nothing at all* to it.

Further reading:

Koretz RL. Is statistical significance always significant? Nutr Clin Pract. 2005; 20(3): 303-7.

Beck-Bornholdt HP, Dubben HH. Potential pitfalls in the use of p-values and in interpretation of significance levels. Radiother Oncol. 1994; 33(2): 171-6.

Brookes ST, Whitley E, Peters TJ, Mulheran PA, Egger M, Davey Smith G. Subgroup analyses in randomised controlled trials: quantifying the risks of false-positives and false-negatives. Health Technol Assess. 2001; 5(33): 1-56.

(For the record, the only reason I'm posting this here is so one can link to it from the noot fora... ;-)

#47 kevin

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:10 AM

Ergo, this treatment needs to make the same move that any treatment makes after passing a small sample size test: Move to a larger sample size. This is the precise reason we go through all the trouble with phase II and III trials. The fact that magnet therapy claimed p<0.05s for decades and never moved on in fact strongly suggests that there is *nothing at all* to it.


thanks for the concise comments John... and taking the time to think through what I didn't.. you are of course quite right... :) I withdraw my ever so tepid claim of possible significance.. we will have to wait for more robust data I think.

Sorry Don.. [wis]

#48 DJS

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 08:22 AM

No need to be sorry Kevin. :) Your defense of the opposing position was quite good, probably optimally good, all things considered.

You certainly had me thinking, but one of the underlying reasons for my harsh skepticism is that I consider the odds of discovering an unengineered solution to complex bio-medical problems to be exceedingly small.

I would still be intrigued to hear even a hypothetical mechanism for therapeutic effects via magnetism.

The fact that magnet therapy claimed p<0.05s for decades and never moved on in fact strongly suggests that there is *nothing at all* to it.


Excellent point John.

#49 peterragnar

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:46 PM

Dear Friends, I love your enthusiam! This morning when I got on my weight scale I noticed it wasn't on zero. I reset it so that my actual weight could unbiasly be revealed. What do we already agree upon? 1) They don't give out Nobel Prizes for bogus research. 2) magnetism affects changes in blood pH. 3)The human body has certain magnetic organs containing magnetite that are affected by magnetism. (I'm assuming we weren't asleep in Biology 101).

Now what does this all mean for you? It means that you can obtain certain benefits by availing yourself of magnetic therapies. If you are sincerely interested in exploring scientific research, I would suggest reading the works of Dr. Robert O. Becker, M.D.. Twice nominated for the Nobel Prize. He is an orthopedic surgeon with plenty of credentials to go around. Also examine all of the following:

1) Standford Medicine, Vol. 13, 1996 The work of Jan Walleczek at the Electrobiomagnetics Reasearch Lab at Stanford.

2) Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences (Basset, 1974) "Acceleration of Fracture Repair by Electromagnetic Fields".

3) Magnetic Fields in Biology (Delgado, J. 1984)

4) Low Frequency Pulsed Magnetic Field Enhances Collagen Production in Conmnective Cultures (Ferndale, R.W. 1985) Bioelectrochemistry and Bioenergy.

5) Effect of Weak, Pulsing Electromagnetic Fields on Neural Regeneration in the Rat (Ito, H. and A. Bassett 1983) Clinical Orthopedics

6) Magnetic Field Deficiency Syndrone and Magnetic Treatment (Nakagawa, K. 1976) Japan Medical Journal

7) The Effects of Magnetized Mineral Water on Memory Loss Delay in Alzheimer's Disease. (Ohno, Y.) The Center for Frontier Sciences

8) Proceedings of National Academy of Science 21 (Pauling, Linus)

9) A Study on the Effects of Magnetic Necklaces and their iInfluences on Living Bodies (Hirose, S. Internal Physiotherapy School, Medical Faculty, University of Tokyo) TDK Magneto-Medical Publication Series no.2

10) Effectiveness of the TDK Magnetic Lumbar Belt in Treatment of Lumbar Pains Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, National Kokufudai Hospital, Japan

I can certainly go on with these. I do indeed appreciate how we humans have our beliefs "Hard wired", however, from my personal research and experience of working with magnets for the last 25 years, I've received remarkable results! So, it naturally doesn't matter to me if you choose not to avail yourself of the actual (or perceived) benefits. The abundance of available scientific studies overwhelmingly destroys the "Quackery" allegation.

Because Mr Chiu holds what I consider "Irrational Tenets" does not mean we should "throw the baby out with the bath water". My physical body has been the conclusive proving ground for this pre-baby boomer! So, maybe, I'm not so irrational after all. Thanks for a wonderful forum, I'll pass the word to the hundreds of thousands of people I have contact with through my books, writings, and website.

#50 Mind

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:57 PM

Peter...from reading your website...I see that you maintain a great exercise and diet regimen and that you take some supplements often used to retard the effects of aging. Many Imminst members also use these methods to stay healthy and youthful without the use of magnets (although I am not sure any are of your age). How do you KNOW that magnets contribute to your overall health when you are doing so many other things to stay in good shape (things backed with solid science)?

#51 peterragnar

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 12:26 AM

First of all I really appreciate your asking me an intelligent question. I'm on my way to the shower after a hard workout, but promise you a response tomorrow. I like your face, it remines me of some mountain climbers I know and some off-shore sailing champions - very calculating indeed! We can't afford to make a mistake when our lives are at risk, can we?

#52

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 12:42 AM

[quote name='http://www.roaringlionpublishing.com/cms']Spirit: What are your plans?

Peter: When I grow up? (laughter) I want to be a fireman and put out everybody's fires - all the things that are burning them.

Spirit: I think you go around lighting them.

Peter: Well, that's true, too! I'm a spiritual arsonist. I light a fire in their hearts. I go around lighting fires in people's hearts and they don't even know I was there.[/quote]

Friend of Anthony Robbins?

#53 Pablo M

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 02:37 PM

Later Linus Pauling, after begining work on magnetic properities of hemoglobin in the 1930s won him a Nobel Prize in 1954. Now I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that they don't give out Nobel Prizes on a bogus claim.

First of all, that first sentence makes no sense. Secondly, a simple Google search will reveal that Linus Pauling did not win a Nobel Prize for research into magnetism.

Immortalists are interested in developing real anti-aging medicine, not magnetic charm bracelets.

I think if you do some reading on this guy (Peter Ragnar), you will find that he is peddling the latter.

#54 Pablo M

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 02:49 PM

Some things like DHEA, HGH, melatonin, and supplements added to my raw organic diet with a regular exercise program have yielded amazing results for this senior.

Of course, you would never get this information form Mr. Ragnar's promotional websites. The "Magic Man of Mystery Hill" of whatever he calls himself heavily prmotes his own "magnetic Qi Gong" that seems to be imbued with so many mystical properties, it may be the answer to immortality in and of itself.

There is no magic bullet (sorry Mr. Chiu), but the intention of an intelligent person can revolutionize the world!

Wow. He sounds almost scientific here. Maybe you should add ths one (extemely minor, piddling) caveat to your magnetic websites. Also you might want to inform visitors that your magic vitality is not all due to raw foods and magnets, as a few other *cough cough* minor therapies might have played a part.

#55 Lazarus Long

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 03:24 PM

I have been reluctant to enter here but a cursory review of some of the claims makes me suspicious of your argument Peter.

First off: Linus Pauling received the Nobel Prize for chemistry and later the Peace Prize. It had nothing to do with any of his claims over biology. Much of what he claimed about Vitamin C as well as other ideas have been thoroughly discredited by subsequent study and there is nothing about credentials in one area that imply an expertise in another. There was nothing about the magnetic properties of hemoglobin involved in the Nobel Prize.

Second, the research on magnetic fields has actually been demonstrating how little effect there is. Early in its development there was considerable concern over the use of MRI because of the requirements of very powerful and intense gauss fields in order to make the system work. Because of this and also concerns over the EM fields around high voltage lines a considerable amount of research went into determining what are the effects of magnetic fields on the body and the results from numerous corroborative double blind studies demonstrated that there is remarkably little effect considering the presence of iron in hemoglobin and micro-voltage discharges in neural tissue.

Later some application of field strengths capable of bending metal bars did demonstrate that some forms of magnetic fields are capable of causing "confusion" when a person is too close for too long. This is more a concern over technicians that are involved in fusion experiments using magnetic bottles to sustain the reactions and others working in force field development. It is also about the effects of EMP on soldiers when EMP weapons are used.

I am not saying that magnetism is completely irrelevant but it is true to say that the strengths of the fields generally encountered with most of these methods popularized today are simply nowhere near significant enough to matter. We live within a vastly more pernicious and significant field called the Earth.

Magnetism has been shown to influence bone tissue growth and help organize cellular development after severe fractures but these are strong fields that are used to help align cell growth.

There have been some double blind studies done recently on the magnetic claims for many popular products, not just things like Chui's rings but the belts and other topical applications of magnets not much stronger than you can find on the average refrigerator and virtually all have demonstrated that there is no effect from this type of use.

Comparing the application of topical magnets to those that have been shown to impact neural function or bone growth however is like comparing the impact of a slap to a five thousand pound bomb (or larger). I respectfully suggest that the studies you have offered be compared to numerous others that have also been published and can be found through the average Google scholar search.

#56 jaydfox

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 04:44 PM

there is nothing about credentials in one area that imply an expertise in another.

This is a very important point. Pauling's work on chemical bonds is considered the seminal work of modern chemistry, but this doesn't really mean that anything else he did was of the same caliber or crediblity.

Consider that Roger Penrose is considered one of the great mathematical minds of the 20th century, yet his theory on consciousness (quantum gravity in microtubules) is one that is quite a joke in the scientific community. That's not to say that his microtubules theory is necessarily wrong, but it's not any more correct just because he's one of the great mathematical minds of the 20th century: it has to stand on its own merits.

#57 peterragnar

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 06:26 PM

Thanks Folks, Aren't you glad I'm here. Look at all the fun you're having as I tap your funnybone. That's reflexive for "Go fish". I find this as entertaining as an atheist declaring to a group of Baptists he didn't believe in God. You know you get that warm and fuzzy welcome feeling.

On to Pauling yes, understanding the molecular structure of chemical bonds is chemistry. So is the understanding of how the oxygen-carrying molecules in hemoglobin can exhibit magnetic qualities. Dispite the specific particulars of his discoveries that led to his Nobel Prize in Chemistry, the point still remains that we are affected by magnetism. Now to what degree? How much gauss is required to change blood pH etc.. and to be theurapeutic?

According to Doctors at the U.S. Navel Medical Research center in Bethesda, MD Drs. Thomas, Schrot, and Liboff found that as little as an oscillating magnetic field of o.2 gauss affected the lithium ion present in the brain. This was first done with rats. Since lithium is naturally present in small amounts in the brain, stimulating it produces a calming effect during the manic phase of manic-depressive psychosis. Some of our most interesting breakthroughs in neurological research have been triggered by Dr. Michael Persinger use of a transcranial magnetic stimulator, that shoots a concentrated magnetic field at specific areas in the brain.

So, how have we progressed? Lets fold the piece of paper in half and make two columns. The abundant amount of research by dedicated professionals working in the field, fill the plus side up. On the other column we have???? Listen, it takes no intelligence to be a nay-sayer. To contradict or oppose an unpopular position does not validate the tenets of another. Nor should it be threathening to the point of hostility. It doesn't matter to me at all if you don't want to use magnets.

However, I now understand this conversation has little to do with magnetism. The real issue at stake, (and I hope I'm wrong) is the sense of dogmatic behavior that comes with investigating something you've made up your mind to find strange. The strength of the magnets I use are enough gauss to pick up a 45# dumbbell, not the refridgerator kind.

When the British medical journal Lancet published Binder's study, (the one Kevin reffered to) bear in mind that the 26 out of 29 people (who did not respond to corticosteroid) received therapeutic relief from persistent rotator cuff tendonitis. Try telling them that magnetism doesn't work. I'm certain they couldn't care less about your position or mine!

This brings me to asking you, since I sense some unprofessional hostility, have you ever personally used magnetism to say, help heal a sports injury? Like untold numbers of athletes do? A few years ago, while traing some of my full-contact martial arts students I suffered a serious knee injury. The next morning I was to speak before an audience filled with medical doctors, healthcare professionals, and other interested people. Since, I had recieved a 50,000 dollar speakers fee, I didn't want to cancel.

Here they were sitting in my livingroom waiting for me to begin. My knee was so swollen that I bearly was able to pull my pants on. When they noticed me limping, many offered to help. One who offered happen to be working with the Kentucky Derby winner, Funnycide. Of course I'm not a horse! I strapped on two rare earth 12500 gauss magnets around my knee. I stood for the entire three days of the seminar. By the evening of the third day, I was able to dance to the utter amazement of the audence. Now, tell me I'm full of oh! "fish" is the word.

#58 jaydfox

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 06:42 PM

Thanks Folks, Aren't you glad I'm here. Look at all the fun you're having as I tap your funnybone. That's reflexive for "Go fish". I find this as entertaining as an atheist declaring to a group of Baptists he didn't believe in God. You know you get that warm and fuzzy welcome feeling.

Fun it is. We can be quite as reflexive as the rest of society. An important point for us to consider is that scientists who support SENS, or who even just associate with it by providing relevant research, can be ostracized from the scientific community, and the implications of that are quite chilling to consider. I think it's a shame for good science to be quashed because it doesn't jive with the mainstream thinking.

That said, there's certainly no reason that ideas outside the mainstream shouldn't be vetted much more than ideas within the mainstream. The reason is simple: mainstream ideas are mainstream for a reason, and as often as not, that reason is because the evidence is already there and corroborated, or at the least a logical, explanatory mechanism exists. A fair amount of indoctrination and dogma becomes part of it too, of course.

So I don't think people who want to research or advocate magnetic therapies should be shunned necessarily, but you have to admit, you should be held to a higher burden of proof than ideas for which a physiological explanation is readily available, and which sound less like mysticism or a way to tap the masses' ignorance.

I for one became far less critical of magnets when the photosynthesis free radical production study was published (I've only read the media's protrayal, I admit I haven't seen the research paper itself), because it finally gave evidence of something real and scientific. The whole idea of magnets working with a person's inner energy flow is just a bunch of mystical BS on the surface, and it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

At any rate, the photosynthesis effect I mentioned is hardly applicable to humans, though it at least merits investigation in other biochemical pathways (e.g. the various complexes in the mitochondria, the replication and repair processes of DNA, ATP pathways in muscle contraction, etc.) to see if something more relevant is out there.

#59 peterragnar

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 06:46 PM

Dantecubit, You might like to read more carefully or listen to some of my interviews before you jump to conclusions. Hey, I'm not your enemy! I personally find, that both the hard core skeptic and the true believer are opposite ends of the same stake pounded firmly into the ground. Neither one of them will move due to the fear of being wrong and usually have nothing up-building or solution based to offer other than criticizing what they don't understand. I've been wrong many times. I've swung at lots of balls and missed, but I've also hit a lot of homeruns! I came to this website hoping to make a contribution, not just in a monetary sense but to offer some new insights. Seeing I'm not welcome...

#60 jaydfox

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 06:58 PM

Peter, in the hopes that your intentions are good, I should point out that there are a number of factors working against you here, which you hopefully can overcome if your intentions are good and your science meritorious:
1) Alex Chiu, and magnet peddlers in general. This falls into the general category of snake oil salesmen. People want to believe in psychic energy fields and all that crap, and magnet peddlers have in general tapped into this gullibility in the market. Most magnet peddlers are far less versed than you are, and merely push their products on mysticism and the general gullibility of a public that wants so desparately to believe.
2) Appearance. Your generally level-headed discussions here don't seem to jive with the impressions some of us have gotten from visiting your website.
3) LifeMirage. The recent LifeMirage scandal involved a person who was very intellectually dishonest, who posted links and abstracts of scientific articles, many available in PubMed. Unfortunately, he always posted studies that showed that this or that chemical was safe and/or effective, etc., yet once we began to doubt his credentials (he was impersonating a doctor), some of our members easily found studies that contradicted the evidence provided by LifeMirage. It became increasingly obvious that LifeMirage was intentionally presenting a dishonest and rosy picture of the drugs he was peddling. The peddling part was less apparent, because LifeMirage did not disclose that he worked closely with a major bulk supplier of the very drugs he was providing scientific research for.

This has brought the skeptics out of the woodwork here. You have an uphill battle ahead of you, but if you persist with patience and show us some degree of intellectual honesty (such as not glossing over negative studies, not pointing to studies with groups so small that stastical significance is highly questionable, and not pointing out authorities whose recognized and validated work is used to back up questionable work), then you may be able to find a home here.




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