132 replies to this topic

[Pablo M]

Peter-- I had the chance to view your "magnetic Qi Gong" course. There is no way that I would pay whatever you are asking for it. I remember from a year or so back when I was researching you that you also provided a testimonial for Matt Furey as to the power of his Internet moneymaking program. You apparently never imagined you'd be making as much money as you are. Well I congratulate you. What is that one course you sell on your website? Something like "Is Eternal Life a Possibility"? What exactly would be in that manual, Peter? I imagine it is two words: "Not currently." I remember that you can only buy that one once you've bought everything else. Sounds a lot like scientology marketing tactics to me. "Okay, so once I'm a Thetan VII I can do some more e-metering and clearing and eventually progress to level XI."

Doing Qi Gong standing on a couple of magnets will allow the healing, alkalizing, mystical magnetic field to penetrate... into the soles of one's feet. Even magnetic product hawkers admit that the field doesn't penetrate deeply. Yeah, my bone marrow feels really cleansed now.

Maybe magnets do have some benefit. Who knows? The main problem I see with your products is a lot of sophisticated mumbo-jumbo convincing people about the magical powers of magnets to do all sorts of incredible things. The studies you cite seem very mundane by comparison, for example, magnets improving joint pain. I want to knock over glasses at the dinner table without touching them and have candles go out when I enter a room like your friends say you can manifest. How do I do those things, Peter?

Lets fold the piece of paper in half and make two columns. The abundant amount of research by dedicated professionals working in the field, fill the plus side up. On the other column we have???? Listen, it takes no intelligence to be a nay-sayer. To contradict or oppose an unpopular position does not validate the tenets of another.

That's basically an appeal to ignorance.

Hey, I'm not your enemy! I personally find, that both the hard core skeptic and the true believer are opposite ends of the same stake pounded firmly into the ground. Neither one of them will move due to the fear of being wrong and usually have nothing up-building or solution based to offer other than criticizing what they don't understand. I've been wrong many times. I've swung at lots of balls and missed, but I've also hit a lot of homeruns! I came to this website hoping to make a contribution, not just in a monetary sense but to offer some new insights. Seeing I'm not welcome...

Nor am I your enemy. However the only differences I see between you and Alex Chiu are a) articulation and b) success.

Prove me wrong though. Send me your magnetic Qi Gong course ond some magnets. I live by a code of morality similar to the one articulated on your website. I promise you that if I derive benefit from it (for simplicity's sake we will say this has been fulfilled if several small, nagging health problems disappear) I will pay you in full for it.


edit: stupid f'ing board software

Edited by dantecubit, 27 April 2006 - 07:57 PM.

[jaydfox]

edit: stupid f'ing board software

Yes, yes, that will be fixed in the next couple months. (I assume you're talking about the quote bug.)

[DJS]

Peter, here's the thing man -- why start out in this thread? For most of us this immediately sets off warning bells. And then your site -- holy cow! I was half expecting you to try and sell me magical spritng water or something. Again it sets off more alarms, and I'm sure you can see things from our perspective. Here's this guy trying to sell his wares and figures he can get some good play by affiliating with our site...

That there is my skeptical side.

On the other side I leave open the possibility that, perhaps, you are opening yourself up to new possibilities. Perhaps you are starting to see that you are physically degrading and you want real solutions. If that's the case I welcome you.

So let's start out by trying to establish some common ground. Chiu states that his device can grant physical immortality. You have already stated your disagreement with this claim. So my questions to you would be:

1) Are there currently any treatments available that can stop and/or reverse aging?

2) If no, then would you agree that we are all presently destined to die?

3) If yes, then would you agree the only possible way to prevent this eventuality is to develop advanced biotechnologies to combat aging/death?

[peterragnar]

Don, it's good to get you talking to me. Anyone one who looks at what I'm really saying will see my presentation in a totally different light. We are probably more alike that you might like to think. Possibily stall aging and slow it, yes. I believe I've been doing that. But, option #3 has the most promise. So, rule #1 is stay alive as long and as in the best condition as possible. Rule #2 is don't get sick. These can certainly be accomplished. Naturally, like yourself I'll use any tool to to preserve my life. Since, life is my highest value, I'll have to use the best reasoning powers as the virtueous end to that accomplishment that I can muster.

I certainly didn't come to this site to sell my wares. (it's against your policy). Everything I offer my clients are things I use and believe it. I'm the proof of my own program. I've aged very little in the past several decades. We of course can debate that, however my physical accomplishments stand on their own. So, what have I been doing? I came here looking for even better ways to advance my understanding. I certainly don't need this site. I've got well over a million people on my contact list already.

To my other friend Dantecubic, I celebrate the individual, not any cult or religion which I feel are moral poisons destroying our planet. You say, "There is no way I would ever pay what you're asking?" You're broke, right? I just saw a book on anti-aging medicine for 300.00 the other day and marked it on my buy list. I figure you've already made up your mind about what I offer. That's fine, hopefully, we can go on to discuss topics we agree on. Then, I'll think about your offer. Sincerity, opens doors. (By the way, those magnets have close to a 18" penetration, according to factory tests.) And about my course, try telling people Jesus never existed, seriously, try it. Then come and ask me why I don't offer some things to the public until they've read my other stuff. Duh, I'm not stupid!

How do I knock over glasses without touching them, the Amazing Randi and I share the secret. Why, by magic of course! You ought to see my mentalist routine, It will blow your mind (so, to speak). I've performed before live audiences for years. So? I'm a born entertainer. Hey, I got one for you, tell a bunch of church folks you're an Immortalist! I hope you're fire-proof! Blogs are buzzing with outrage since I've said that I believe it will be possible to live forever, if we can stick around another 23 -30 years or so. He, he, talk about hate mail! I love it! Sorta makes you feel alive, doesn't it?

Edited by peterragnar, 27 April 2006 - 09:38 PM.

[Pablo M]

Well Peter, I sincerely hope you and I both will acheive immortality, and those (I assume church-going) folk you speak of who send you hate mail will simply perish because of their own stupidity.

And please do consider my proposal. I would honor my end of the agreement.

[jaydfox]

I sincerely hope ... those (I assume church-going) folk you speak of who send you hate mail will simply perish because of their own stupidity.

Ouch, a bit harsh there, eh? Darwinism of memes, I suppose, but I think some of them can and will come around. I did. Well, I guess I wasn't sending hate mail or anything like that... But I was church-going. (Actually, I still am, for my wife's sake, but my heart's not in it anymore.)

[jedsen]

I can vouch for dante, he is not broke and is gamefully employed. Although he probably can't afford to drop three big ones on a book, he can buy supplements in quantity. He prefers the library for all his literary needs.

Anyway, unlike dante, I have a closed, narrow mind and a lack of knowledge of all things health, but I'm certain you're full of shit. Although you have attained verbal dexterity from a private education, you lack any medical knowledge. Please [deleted explitive] and leave us alone.

Edit by jaydfox: malicious explitives as ad hominems will not be tolerated in this forum.

Edited by jaydfox, 28 April 2006 - 12:07 AM.

[Live Forever]

I can vouch for dante, he is not broke and is gamefully employed. Although he probably can't afford to drop three big ones on a book, he can buy supplements in quantity. He prefers the library for all his literary needs.

Anyway, unlike dante, I have a closed, narrow mind and a lack of knowledge of all things health, but I'm certain you're full of shit. Although you have attained verbal dexterity from a private education, you lack any medical knowledge. Please [deleted explitive] and leave us alone.

Can we keep the profanity out of this, please? I was rather enjoying reading through the recent back and forth on this thread until I came to this post.

Edit by jaydfox: deleting the quoted malicious attack.

Edited by jaydfox, 28 April 2006 - 12:08 AM.

[Lazarus Long]

How do I knock over glasses without touching them, the Amazing Randi and I share the secret. Why, by magic of course! You ought to see my mentalist routine, It will blow your mind (so, to speak). I've performed before live audiences for years. So? I'm a born entertainer.

BTW Peter it is a little ironic that you claim an affinity to the Amazing Randi, you do know that the Amazing Randi doesn't believe a whit in magic right?

He is the head of the skeptics society, the James Randi Educational Foundation, whose mission is debunking all such claims.

http://www.randi.org/

Including those like Chui's

http://www.randi.org/jr/053003.html

and claims such as magnets heal.
http://www.google.co.....AForum&sa=Go!

[jaydfox]

Hmm, I got the impression when Peter said the thing about knocking over glasses that he was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and was specifically referring to a sort of parlor trick, where it's not "magic" so much as just a trick, be it sleight of hand or use of magnets or something. I didn't think he was serious.

Peter, were you serious?

[peterragnar]

Thanks Jay! No, of course I wasn't serious. I"ve publically stated to audiences that any of the so called miracles adopted by religion to validate them, can be reproduced by MAGIC, as in the word magician. Of course I know James Randi was a top performing stage magician and author of FLIM-FLAM! I've read his books and have been thrilled. My library is full of books from Prometheus Books and my collection of copies of THE AMERICAN RATIONALIST, which are compelling reading.

Since, there is an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence in favor of the therapeutic value of magnets which I endorse, it doesn't make me an irrational heretic. It apparently indicates that I wasn't singing with the choir. Have you ever witnessed a strange wolf attempt to enter an established pack? The animal instinct of the old members is exhibited with growling and sharp little nips, in an attempt to drive the new member away. And Jedsen, since you're so passionate about this site you must be a lifetime member, right? Nice teeth, can we hear that growl again?

[peterragnar]

Dante, I'm getting to appreciate you more. Email me at the roaring lion site.

[Pablo M]

Ouch, a bit harsh there, eh? Darwinism of memes, I suppose, but I think some of them can and will come around. I did. Well, I guess I wasn't sending hate mail or anything like that... But I was church-going. (Actually, I still am, for my wife's sake, but my heart's not in it anymore.)

Jay: of course I don't wish death upon anyone, but if people choose to believe in the certainty of death then they are condemning themselves to it. Remember that these are the same people (a generalization obviously, but I feel it is accurate) that would deny us stem cell research and other steps necessary to acheive workable LE.

[peterragnar]

Jay, It is most natural for people who only see death and suffering as inevitable to embrace religious ideas. It certainly acts as a sedative to calm fears of an unknown future. That mystical hope has in some ways kept humankind alive by providing hope (a false hope albeit, but a hope). That's also where a lot of other whacky ideas arise for folks out on the fringe, which of course, never materalize. When you rattle their cage of belief a bit, some of them turn into savage beasts. If you have one religion, and someone else is convinced they have the only true faith and you're going to burn in hell for being wrong, what do you have? It is well illustrated in the Middle East today.

Like Dante, I would wish all people to live in peace. However, peace can only come when reason comes to the table, not emotion. I in no way would offend you. It is simply that in looking for answers beyond the clouds that no concretes are to be found. If a person has a hope in the answer to life coming from an unprovable realm, then this earth and this life really don't matter. (As current events prove). If this is all there is, then we better get busy in finding answers. After all, it is you and I that have this evolved capacity to think, to plan, and to create tomorrow. Each one of us must shout aloud, "If it's to be, it's up to me!!!"

[zoolander]

That mystical hope has in some ways kept humankind alive by providing hope

Some would say that hope and idealism are root causes of suffering. Some may also say that hope has kept humankind blinded by illusion.

[icyT]

I'm late in coming to this discussion. I would like to respond to some of Mr. Ragnar's writings.

Dear Friends

An introduction I'm all-too familiar with among those who study Furey-marketing...

I get the impression we confuse Chiu with some interesting scientific research on magnetism. Science has been researching the power of magnetism and electricty since the days of Michael Faraday when he discovered the magnetic properties of dried blood.

Science had done it a bit before, but biological ramifications, yes.

Later Linus Pauling, after begining work on magnetic properities of hemoglobin in the 1930s won him a Nobel Prize in 1954. Now I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that they don't give out Nobel Prizes on a bogus claim.

Nobel prizes aren't divine. There is some good discernment into who is awarded them though. As far as I know, Pauling was given the prize "for his research into the nature of the chemical bond and its application to the elucidation of the structure of complex substances." I didn't go further than that, but you are alleging that this work he received the prize for was the magnetic properties of hemoglobin?

I've seen both hard core skeptics and true belivers exhibit knee-jerk reactions to things that do not fit with their field of investigation or pre-conceived ideas. This is quite natural, hence looking through my own bias, I can gladly provide an abundant amount of (boring) scientific research supporting the health benefits of magnetism. Does magnetism have health benefits? According to many studies, yes!

It is wrong to label anyone skeptical of the implied obvious and universal health benefits of magnets to be a 'hard-core skeptics' or 'true believers' in non-magnetic dogma. Skepticism is the default of science in looking at new theory, and this boring scientific research demands great perusal since it is contrary to established modern medical opinion. This doesn't make it impossible, but the evidence must be very strong. I'd like to see it, you should link to it when selling products too. I see you do provide some studies on the next page, thank you for doing so.

Now for some others:

Actually Don, transcranial magnetic stimulation is a form of therapy right now, for depression and I believe epilepsy.

Cool, but the main question is, who practises it? Is it MDs? There are all sorts of quacky things done in massage parlours and chiropractors and energy healers, so who offers it is of interest.

My take on the research: If magnetism were found to have such a ROS-production inhibiting effect in other reactions besides photosynthesis (oh, say, in mitochondria), then Chiu's rings might have a beneficial effect on the rate of senescence in the proximal phalanx of the fifth metacarpal... Err, your pinky might live longer. Maybe your ring finger too, since the magnetic field would presumably exist on both sides of the magnetic ring.

So you're saying that, if I wear a full body "magneto" outfit, there's a chance I could reduce ROS production within my body and decrease the rate of senescence?

I think the main problem here is that even if you could hit all areas, and magnetism did have the potential to heal, like a scalpel or substance, it could similarly harm if applied oppositely. Just because the study lucked out and got positive effects doesn't mean they know how, why, or that it can be replicated, even in identical test subjects and conditions, much less humans.

The fact that magnet therapy claimed p<0.05s for decades and never moved on in fact strongly suggests that there is *nothing at all* to it.

Exactly! One problem is too much credit is given to individual studies and not preceding or following contradictory work. One of the foundations of science is that results are constantly reproducible. This hasn't been shown, and the small numbers speak mounds.

[peterragnar]

Zoolander, I agree! Even hope may be an evolutionary, genetically inherited reflex that we humans have developed to keep us looking forward. Sadly, that hope often points us in the wrong direction. As for me, give me facts not faith! Facts are the only tools we have to carve our destiny. Progress is confidence.

[gunshyslycat1]

I loathe people that come out with stuff like this. It's one thing to come up with something, then say it may help this or that..but to live forever? I don't see how they could jump to a conclusion like that. Shouldn't they be closed down?

[gary clark]

Dear Mind

If you haven't seen any positive or negative results for these devices, and as you quote one study that was positive and another that wasn't (50/50% so far?), it strikes me that all you are giving us is your own biased opinion. If it's not mainstream gerontology, presumably, it can't be true. I'll buy a set just becaue you say I shouldn't.

[FunkOdyssey]

I'll buy a set just becaue you say I shouldn't.

Mind- please tell gary he should definitely NOT purchase the car I'm about to list on ebay for the Buy It Now price. I'll send you the URL so you can instruct him to steer clear of it.

[peterragnar]

Dear Gunshy,
I agree, I don't know how one can draw the conclusion that Mr. Chiu's device will grant immortality. With that said, I personally find the case for magnetism very strong as you can see in my other posts. The only way to find out for certain is to take the car out for a test drive.

Since, we to some degree have a free market society - why not let the market decide? By law, if you don't like a product you have 30 days to send it back. If you're happy with it, great. If you're not, simply send it back for a refund. The market always determines who stays in business and who goes bankrupt. If you're not serving the customer in some satisfying way you'll go broke.

Now, to feel a loathing for another person is not how to make a happy world. Hate is the problem that is creating the difficulties we are attempting to solve. In fact, hate causes stress. Stress produces cortisol which in high amounts destroys brain cells. The Middle-East is a good example. It is certainly not an emotion that benefits an evolved being. I'm grateful that I have the freedom to buy junk and waste my money or to spend it on high quality items. At present, the choice is with the individual. We don't have to wear the Star of David on our arm, yet... do we?

[Pablo M]

I loathe people that come out with stuff like this. It's one thing to come up with something, then say it may help this or that..but to live forever? I don't see how they could jump to a conclusion like that. Shouldn't they be closed down?

Yeah, I would think that the FDA would be all over Mr. Ragnar. Read on:

Dear Gunshy,
I agree, I don't know how one can draw the conclusion that Mr. Chiu's device will grant immortality. With that said, I personally find the case for magnetism very strong as you can see in my other posts. The only way to find out for certain is to take the car out for a test drive.

Peter, you must feel that the case for magnetism is stronger than "very strong," as the title of your course is "Magnetic Qi Gong: the Path to Immortality" (emphasis added).

Since, we to some degree have a free market society - why not let the market decide?

Good idea. Why don't you rename your course with a title that is less blatantly false, something like: "Magnetic Qi Gong: It combines the chi cultivation benefits of Qi Gong, which Chinese scholar and Qi Gong master Kenneth Cohen admits are very similar to any form of exercise, with the benefits of magnets, which research suggests might have benefit for certain specific conditions."

[peterragnar]

Dear Pablo,
I appreciate your observations, please bear in mind "The Path to Immortality" is what the ancient practice was orginally called. I didn't invent it. It should be obvious that it is a hyperbole. It is just as if at times I use the expression, "The Fountain of Youth", there is no literal fountain. Our quest for immortality takes in many approaches. Doing qi gong has countless health benefits that ancient practitioners believed would lead to an open-ended longevity. "Immortality" was used in a relative sense.

It's funny that thousands of people absolutely love this product and rave about the results. The only negatives I ever get are from people who have never done the practice, which is fine. The more people bash me, the more free advertising I get which brings a lot of wonderful clients who end up being lifelong friends.

Of course, the real underlining problem has nothing to do with magnets or qi gong. It has to do with the marketplace and a conditioned reflexive attitude toward anyone who becomes successful. Because a person acheives wealth through hard work and creativity does not make them a crook. If I were fraudulently advertising this product, the FDA would have shut me down years ago. However, I'm always looking for better and more effective ways to advertise - therefore Pablo, I thank you for your imput and wish you the very best.

[peterragnar]

Pablo, After thinking about your suggestions and considering that the word "immortality" may not be viewed as hyperbole and good advertising, I am going to change the wording. Thanks, my friend!

[Pablo M]

Peter-- I would support your using the title "The Path to Immortality" if and only if you indicated it was used in keeping with the traditional name for Qi Gong. You don't provide any disclaimer for this statement. On my bottle of vitamin C, for example, it says that vitamin C is useful in protecting against environmental pollutants. But the statement is qualified with a disclaimer saying it has not been evaluated by the FDA.

I do find this quote (from your audio CD or video DVD, can't remember which) to be interesting:

So do magnets hold the key to immortality? I am sure of one thing: those who know aren't telling.

No one is telling more vocally than you, so by your own logic you don't know.

[amar]

I tried getting the immortality rings through Chiu's 80 clicks for free rings system. I got well over 80 clicks and he never sent me the rings, even though I requested several times. I'm embarassed that I even trusted him enough to try and get the rings. It's balogne.

[peterragnar]

Dear Pablo, That was from the fable of Fan from the DVD. It was simply part of the story. Nowhere do I ever claim "Immortality" from magnets. Based on the countless scientific studies of the topic, they do exert benefits. With that said, everyone is free to try them or not. Actually, they do not fall under the FDAs inspection, but the FTC. Which has deemed such products as approved for the public.

My public and private reputation is flawless, dispite an occasional attack from people unfamiliar with what I teach or stand for. Sadly, the unfortunate experience of Amar with people who you put into the same catagory as myself is grossly unfair and unwarranted. Do you think Mr. Chui would post on this site? Since, I'm interested in constructive dialog that fosters something positive I think enough has been said. And I certain you have more positive things to do with your life than attempting to find flaws in other people. There are many ways you also, can make a meaningful contribution to the world if you so desire. Why don't you publish your writings on Yoga? I'm certain you'll get some interesting feedback from folks here on this site, as an example. I wish you the best!

[amar]

I only joined Chiu's program because I was bored and it wasn't much strain on me personally to put up a few links to his website on the internet, not because I was especially faithful or gullible of it. Though I usually favor honest doubt over unrealistic optimism, I just wanted to know what the magnets really truly were capable of through experiencing it myself. It was no loss to me, and I deserve no pity or shame. I think it's an interesting topic; the power that magnetic therapy truthfully is capable of. Alex Chiu does seem to be a con artist because he gaurantees that the rings grant immortality with no way to prove it, and because there's a good chance he won't even send you the rings you earn. Too bad it wouldn't do me much good to sue him if I die whilst high on magneto power, and though I could get him in trouble for not sending me my rings, I'm too lazy and carefree to do so. What's interesting to me is what is the truth behind magnetic therapy? I highly doubt that it's the secret to immortality, but what health benifits does it have, if any? What honest scientific studies have been done about magnetic therapy? Have there been controlled placebo and magnet studies? What were the results?

Edited by amar, 08 June 2006 - 04:16 AM.

[peterragnar]

Dear Amar, You might want to review my April 24th post on page three. While, I've had personal experience in the benefits of using magnets, (which are a whopping 12,500 gauss, enough to pick up a 45# dumbbell, not Dr. Chui's), even this is not immortality. The rational person will use all the tools available to prolong and benefit their life and health until we can actually crack the code to a greatly expanded lifespan. With our scientific knowledge of aging and the workings of the physical body increasing by twice, every 3.5 years since 1997, we can be confident we all be able to enjoy an open-ended longevity in the soon to come future. Consider this, in only a mere 66 years we went from believing it was impossible for a heavier-than-air machine to fly to walking on the moon. That's awesome! What will the future bring that we now deem impossible?

[xpanse]

Peter man thats awesome.