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TA Sciences announces TA-65


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#31 bugmenot.com

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 10:48 AM

Geron just increased their ownership in TA Therapeutics to 75%. This is the joint venture that discovered the astragalus-derived telomerase activator.

They must feel that it has potential.

Here's the press release:

Geron Increases Stake in TA Therapeutics Joint Venture
Jun 18 2007, 7:30 AM EST

Business Wire

Geron Corporation (Nasdaq: GERN) and the Biotechnology Research Corporation (BRC) of Hong Kong today announced that Geron has increased its stake in their joint venture entity, TA Therapeutics Limited (TAT), from 50% ownership to 75% ownership.

TAT is a Hong Kong company that conducts research and develops therapeutics based on telomerase activator drugs to restore the functional and regenerative capacity of cells. BRC, a company established by The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology (HKUST), continues to hold the remaining 25% of the shares of TAT.

"TAT has made great progress in its development of telomerase activator compounds for therapeutic applications," said David J. Earp, J.D., Ph.D., Geron's senior vice president of business development and a director of TAT. "The company is now expanding its efforts in pre-clinical development and working toward the filing of an Investigational New Drug (IND) Application with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for a small molecule compound for the treatment of HIV/AIDS. This is an opportune time for Geron, the development and commercial partner in the joint venture, to negotiate for a larger interest in the company."

TAT was established in 2005 following a successful research collaboration between Geron and scientists at HKUST to identify compounds in traditional Chinese medicines that could activate telomerase. Geron and BRC each contributed operating capital to TAT, and Geron granted TAT a worldwide exclusive intellectual property license to develop and commercialize telomerase activators.

"The rapid progress made by the joint venture reflects the productive collaboration between the Geron and HKUST teams," said Tony Eastham, Ph.D., general manager of BRC. "We look forward to continuing our participation in TAT as it moves toward the initiation of its first clinical trial."

Telomerase activation in aged or chronically stressed normal cells has been shown to slow or reverse telomere shortening, increase replicative capacity and restore or improve cellular function. In HIV/AIDS, the cytotoxic T lymphocytes that kill HIV-infected T cells undergo accelerated telomere loss and have reduced proliferative capacity and anti-viral activity. TAT has demonstrated that its lead drug candidate, which is currently in IND-enabling studies, can significantly improve the proliferative capacity and anti-viral function of cytotoxic T cells from HIV/AIDS donors. TAT's approach to HIV/AIDS is a form of immunotherapy that could be complementary to existing anti-viral drugs by helping the body's own defenses to combat the infection.

Many degenerative diseases, including other chronic infections, macular degeneration, osteoporosis, liver and cardiovascular diseases and chronic ulcers, show characteristics of accelerated aging and loss of key cellular functions. In addition, certain genetic disorders are caused by specific mutations that impair telomerase function. TAT is actively exploring the therapeutic potential of its telomerase activator drugs in these and other conditions.

BRC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and was established in 2004 to assist the university to engage in developmental aspects of biotechnology.

Geron is developing first-in-class biopharmaceuticals for the treatment of cancer and chronic degenerative diseases, including spinal cord injury, heart failure, diabetes and HIV/AIDS. The company is advancing an anti-cancer drug and a cancer vaccine that target the enzyme telomerase through multiple clinical trials. Geron is the world leader in the development of human embryonic stem cell-based therapeutics, with its spinal cord injury treatment anticipated to be the first product to enter clinical development. For more information, visit www.geron.com.

This news release may contain forward-looking statements made pursuant to the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Investors are cautioned that such forward-looking statements in this press release involve risks and uncertainties, including, without limitation, risks inherent in the development and commercialization of potential products, uncertainty of clinical trial results or regulatory approvals or clearances, need for future capital, dependence upon collaborators and maintenance of our intellectual property rights. Actual results may differ materially from the results anticipated in these forward-looking statements. Additional information on potential factors that could affect our results and other risks and uncertainties are detailed from time to time in Geron's periodic reports, including the quarterly report on Form 10-Q for the quarter ended March 31, 2007.



#32 lucid

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 12:48 PM

Great news. I think telomerase activation will be one of the cornerstones of life extension. Unfortunately mice are not great candidates for testing telomerase therapies due to their long telomeres.

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#33 curious_sle

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 06:31 PM

which reminds me... has anyone got lucky in finding a decent astragalus extract? I like capped stuff :-) and i prefer to have as little as possible suppliers (i.e. for me almost all i get at relentlessimprovement and iherb except Jarrows Pyridoxall)... not shure i'd take it just yet but it looks better by the minute ;)

#34 niner

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 06:55 PM

but it looks better by the minute

Yup. I don't want to fly off the handle on this, but damn, this is starting to sound like the real deal. If this pans out, this has to be the best news in a hell of a long time.

#35 lucid

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 08:31 PM

Which reminds me... has anyone got lucky in finding a decent astragalus extract?

Well this is one of the substances that I really wouldn't want to be a guinea pig on. I haven't really seen much negative research on it, but it could have some real negative consequences.

#36 bugmenot.com

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 09:46 PM

Well this is one of the substances that I really wouldn't want to be a guinea pig on. I haven't really seen much negative research on it, but it could have some real negative consequences.


Why do you say that? Astragalus is know in Chinese medicine as one of the few general tonics which is safe to be consumed in any amount for any length of time.

It should be very safe, from all that I've read.

I am taking 1-2gm of extracts per day now.

#37 lucid

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 10:29 PM

Why do you say that? Astragalus is know in Chinese medicine as one of the few general tonics which is safe to be consumed in any amount for any length of time.

It should be very safe, from all that I've read.

Well I haven't read anything particularly bad. But 90% of cancer has tolemerase activated (though telomerase also induces apoptosis to possibly have a net anti-carcinogenic), so since there is very limited experimentation I have read about on mammals, I would be very cautious.

#38 Harvey Newstrom

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Posted 21 June 2007 - 04:42 PM

Some species of astragalus are poisonous to livestock. Side-effects of the non-poisonous variety include dizziness and fatigue.

It has been extensively tested as a anti-cancer agent and immune stimulant based on its reputation in Chinese medicine, but scientific studies have failed to detect either effect.

Sap from astragalus has been used in ice-cream, denture adhesives, and anti-diarrhea medicines. So some people may already be getting some amount of this in their diet.

#39 asnufu

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 09:51 PM

Well, seems TA is having a teleconference for the self-invited on 7.7.7 - see http://www.tascience...m/ta/index.html
It would be really useful if some of the biochemically inclined on this forum (proteomist, maxwatt, etc) could take part, and ask some penetrating questions [glasses]. It might clarify whether TA is an corporate abscess that fell off Geron, or the best thing since 99% pure resv [tung]

#40 proteomist

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 11:37 PM

Anybody else just participate in this? I have only a few minutes and will post more later, but the briefest summary is that not much information was presented. It was basically an ad for the Patton Protocol.

We did learn that the material given to participants is a 90% pure extract, and is given at 5 mg. There was some contradictory information given regarding the product. They claimed at one point that they don't know the chemical structure, then later said they'd looked into having it synthesized and found it prohibitively expensive. Later one of the speakers emphasized that few in the company know the identity of the molecule, and they keep it very secret. So, the one guy outright lied about the structure being unknown, or was really poorly informed.

It was also asserted that they'd tested four commercial astralagus extracts and found them to contain no TA-65.

One questioner asked if TA-65 was either HDTIC 1 or 2, which apparently are mentioned in a chinese study (I'll try to find it later) and which were reported as telomerase activators. They said something like 'all I can say is those are powerful telomerase activators, and TA-65 is a powerful telomerase activator.' Another speaker later claimed that those molecules are not in fact known to be telomerase activators, but rather just proliferation promoters of some sort. Someone else (the person who made the original response regarding HDTICs I think) hurriedly interjected and emphasized that the latter guy doesn't known the actual identity of TA-65.

So, they do know what it is, they won't deny it's one of these chemicals in the chinese study, and when someone asserted that it in fact wasn't they rapidly corrected that back to neutral. Sounds to me like it's one of the chinese compounds.

Sorry to be so hurried, I'll try to have more later.

Well, seems TA is having a teleconference for the self-invited on 7.7.7 - see http://www.tascience...m/ta/index.html
It would be really useful if some of the biochemically inclined on this forum (proteomist, maxwatt, etc) could take part, and ask some penetrating questions  [glasses]. It might clarify whether TA is an corporate abscess that fell off Geron, or the best thing since 99% pure resv  [tung]



#41 unglued

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 12:01 AM

My impression from listening to the teleconference is that they're in earnest and know what they're talking about. They did have several questions that they straightforwardly answered with "We don't know yet" or occasionally "We can't tell you", but to me that just adds to their credibility on the questions they did have answers for.

I still have doubts about safety, because if the paper "The Reserve Capacity Hypothesis" is right about cell senescence being a fail-safe for cells that decide to proliferate indefinitely, then activating telomerase could let any existing proto-tumor become a problem. They repeatedly use the argument that astragalus has been used for thousands of years, but they inconsistently say that TA-65 is extremely low concentrations in even the best astragalus plants.

Personally, I can afford to wait. I'm in my 40's, so they would take me if I wanted to spend the money, but they said they would recommend it only for people over 50 (and would not even give it to someone in their 20's or 30's, whose telomeres are presumably still long enough). They predict that the older someone is the more they would benefit, in theory, but said they really don't know yet. So in addition to wanting to wait for more data and possible improvements, I would rather spend my money when I need it rather than paying the same huge amount of money now just to top off my telomeres. (In contrast, I think of resveratrol as something that may extend my remaining lifespan by some percentage, so the earlier I start taking it the better.)

#42 lucid

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 12:02 AM

Yes good work there. It doesn't seem that tasciences is anymore credible than we had thought, there seem to be a lot of smokescreens and quackery. The good question about why Geron associated them, is still lingering. Good work on attending the conference what did they say the benefits were? Did they point to any interesting studies?

Here is a good page on astragalus:
http://www.herbmed.o...ategory24Herb26

PubMed Study

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Health Science Center, Peking University, Beijing 100083, PR China.

Astragalus membranceus (Fish) Bunge Var. mongholicus (Bge) Hsiao is a Chinese herb considered as an effective traditional anti-ageing material. The two isomers of 4-hydroxy-5-hydroxymethyl-[1,3]dioxolan-2,6'-spirane-5',6',7',8'-tetrahydro-indolizine-3'-carbaldehyde (HDTIC), HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2, were extracted from the herb. We chose them to investigate their effects on replicative senescence in vitro. In this study, we observed the effects of HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2 on morphology, replicative lifespan, and specific markers related to replicative senescence in human fetal lung diploid fibroblast (2BS cell). Results have shown that both the HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2 maintain non-senescent phenotype of 2BS cells even at late population doubling (PD) and increase cumulative population doublings (CPDs) by at least 15-20PDs. The senescence-associated-galactosidase (SA-beta-gal) positive cell rates of late PD cells grown from early PD in medium containing HDTIC, were much lower than that of late PD control cells, and similar to that of young cells. HDTIC also improved cell growth and proliferation and promoted the entry of 2BS cells from G0 or G1 phase to S-phase. In addition, the advanced glycation end product (AGE) levels of late PD cells grown from early PD in DMEM containing HDTIC decreased significantly compared with those of late PD control cells. Taken together, the results strongly suggest that both the HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2 delay replicative senescence of 2BS cells, and indicate that the senescence-delaying effect of HDTIC appears to be due to its many biological properties including its potentials of proliferation improvement, inhibitory effect of AGE formation, and its antioxidant activity. The differences of optimum concentrations of HDTIC-1 (0.1 microM) and HDTIC-2 (1.0 microM) for delaying senescence also indicate that the structure of HDTIC may be very sensitive to its activity.



#43 unglued

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 12:27 AM

Jochen Kumm went over his statistical analysis of the results from the same small 2005 study that is on the web site. There were a handful of markers that showed statistically significant improvement; e.g. vision improved while taking TA-65 but the improvement didn't last, while immunity continued to improve after stopping treatment. He also mentioned that he looked at about 200 markers and that the others did not show any significant effect. (Of course, a small study does not have much power to detect anything with statistical significance, right?) Recall that telomere length was not one of the 200 things they were able measure, according to the letter posted by curious_sle on this topic on Apr 21 2007. Another reason I would want to wait.

Another speaker mentioned two in vitro university studies on telomere length, one on whole blood and one on DNA, but was not at liberty to give details. I guess we'll hear about them when they're published.

Oh, and they mentioned that they licensed the rights to TA-65 from Geron years ago but only succeeded in extracting it economically from astragalus four months ago. Another reason to hope we'll know more about them in a few years.

#44 inawe

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 05:01 PM

Dr. Ludovico Geron, MD, Ph.D., FDR, JFK, had a brilliant idea. Cancer cells are in a sense, immortal. They keep replicating until the host ceases to be a host. They can do it because their telomerase keeps mending the telomeres. So the brilliant idea was to block telomerase activation.
He thought that may be, some herbs people has been using for centuries to combat cancer, might have an active ingredient that could do the job. He enrolled his grandmother, nephews and nieces to set up a lab in his garage. Then he went to the local Chinese store and asked what people have been using to treat cancer. The store owner didn't understand what Dr. Geron was asking, but anyway sold him all the herbal products he had.
At that point Dr. Geron had enough material for presenting a proposal asking for a Federal research grant. When the first money arrived the team started the research in earnest. First substance, Telomerase Annihilator 1 (TA-1) was a bust. Then TA_2,... But the telomerases remained unmoved. They were getting discouraged when Geron Jr. discovered that a small molecule, TA-65, did something to telomerase.
After all the celebration, they took a closer look. Turned out that TA-65 instead of blocking it, was a telomerase activator.
That's how TA-65 came up to be an Telomerase activator. For obvious reasons it couldn't be sold as a cancer treatment (not even the FDA would go along with this). So it was a great relieve when general Patton showed up. He convinced Dr. Geron that he could get su.. , I mean clients, to cough up 25 grand to get their telomeres enlarged. And the rest is history and a topic on ImmInst forum.

#45 asnufu

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 05:23 PM

One questioner asked if TA-65 was either HDTIC 1 or 2, which apparently are mentioned in a chinese study (I'll try to find it later) and which were reported as telomerase activators. They said something like 'all I can say is those are powerful telomerase activators, and TA-65 is a powerful telomerase activator.' Another speaker later claimed that those molecules are not in fact known to be telomerase activators, but rather just proliferation promoters of some sort. Someone else (the person who made the original response regarding HDTICs I think) hurriedly interjected and emphasized that the latter guy doesn't known the actual identity of TA-65.

Proteomist, thanks for taking part and reporting back to us. I can't help getting the feeling that TA-65 is a trumped-up alias for whatever botanical derivative was identified in the Chinese paper you refer to. If indeed TA-65 can activate telomerase as described by TA Sciences, and does not act as a tumor accellerant, then the ideal scenario would be to determine how ordinary supplementation can mimic the Patton Protocol results that TA are after. Who knows, maybe high dose astralagus with synergists is an overlooked compound, much like mega-dose resv with enhanced bioavailability may be qualitatively different from standard 50mg range supplementation...

Edited by asnufu, 08 July 2007 - 06:48 PM.


#46 unglued

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 03:57 AM

If indeed TA-65 can activate telomerase as described by TA Sciences, and does not act as a tumor accellerant, ...


I wouldn't think it would make tumors grow faster, but based on "The Reserve Capacity Hypothesis" (above) I would be concerned that it would make them grow for longer and get larger, i.e. large enough to be noticed and considered a tumor. The hypothesis is that ordinarily an out-of-control line of cells that tries to proliferate forever would reach its Hayflick limit before it becomes dangerous -- unless something else goes wrong with it and it starts expressing telomerase.

then the ideal scenario would be to determine how ordinary supplementation can mimic the Patton Protocol results that TA are after....


If you believe the claim in TA Science's FAQ, then trying to get a therapeutic dose of TA-65 by supplementing with astragalus from your local vitamin store is a little like trying to get a gram of resveratrol by drinking red wine.

#47 asnufu

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 09:02 AM

True, if you believe TA's claim that TA-65 is found only in trace amounts in the raw product (astralagus in purity xx%), then yeah, bulk supplementation would probably be infeasible. However, proteomist's report and their own website tingle my spider sense - they seem a little eager to convince us that TA-65 is light years removed from both raw astralagus and whatever Chinese compounds were referred to, but they're iffy on the details regarding chemical composition and pharmacokinetics (maybe because of patent issues, but still). Their 3rd party assay on TA-65 concentrations in off-the-shelf astralagus is persuasive, but recall that Sirtris-501 may be "simply" micronized resv with an appropriate surfactant and some well-known synergists (quercetin, etc) - no deep rocket science there, just a recognition of the importance of enhanced bioavail.

Still, I won't be upping my astra supp to megadosing levels just yet - too many unknowns, and with 500mg+ resv supplementation, I'm eating enough powder as it is...

#48 jranney

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 12:32 AM

Just got off the phone with Mr. Patton of TA Sciences and his associate David. An interesting conversation with a couple of nice guys.

My overall take: TA-65 is a compound with enormous potential about which almost nothing has been proven. I don't think it's a scam per se. Geron would not license a product that amounted to a blatant scam, but TA Sciences is a small company (I'm guessing 4 people or so) trying to push a product about which relatively little is known.


I asked them how they could claim telomere lengthening if it wasn't measured in the 2005 study, whether all cells in the body were affected by ta-65, which cells' telomeres are being measured now with the 'Patton Protocol' and whether any telomere lengthening has been confirmed since April now that they are measuring it.


They at first maintained the position that telomere length as something that is of secondary importance to the biomarkers tested and that telomerase itself may be causing the benefits directly, without the lengthening of telomeres, as some Geron research has suggested is possible. When I responded that those were two very different things - a 50% telomore length would be something you would presumably feel the effects of 20 years from now, (if the telomeric theory of aging had any basis to it), whereas a health benefit confered directly from telomerase could be rather fleeting. Mr. Patton then introduced a theory (completely unproven, just his conjecture) that he thinks that ta-65 may somehow be seeking out the smaller telomeres and giving them a boost. Since a cell can become senescent when the smallest of the telomeres reaches a critical length, this could confer a huge anti-aging benefit although the mean telomere length change of the cell as a whole might be small or even negligible.

That is an interesting theory but it does underscore that they have some reason to believe that telomere length does not increase. I personally have a feeling based on this conjecture and their emphasis of the direct benefits of telomerase that they were able to measure it in the 2005 study and that the measurements were not marketable as a whole for them and they covered that up. I asked them if any data had come back from the clients. They said they had 6 since April and 2 had lengthened telomeres after 3 months - not enough data to be significant they admitted. They claimed one woman's telomere length 'went 10 years back' - ie was lengthened to the equivalent of someone 10 years younger. Anecdotal hearsay of course with only 6 people and no study. But it is interesting that they would admit essentially that 2/3 of the people had no detectable telomere length increase. That's honest, but doesn't bode well for those seeking to increase it.

They said they have two labs they outsource the measuring job to. One in England tests the telomore lengths only of white blood cells (2 types) - run by Dr. 'Caufan' or something to that effect. Another in America that uses a system about which that they didn't seem to understand the details, but also came from blood. Mr. Patton said that he thought the penetration of TA-65 into different cell types in the body was variable. The cells in the blood (white/red bloodcells) would get the greatest exposure (as TA-65 is first brought into the bloodstream), whereas perhaps hard tissues in the body would get the least. Again, all unproven ideas but that seems like a reasonable guess to me. In this run of real clients, they are testing for arterial stiffness, hoping that since the smooth lining of the arteries is in direct contact with the bloodstream, there would be improvement there.

So, for $25K, what are you guaranteed? - Nothing really. Greta Blackburn did mention in a previous post that they guarantee telomerase activation. I forgot to ask Mr. Patton how that is guaranteed. That would be an interesting thing to find out.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a scam. Geron put its name behind this product as a telomerase activator, and Geron is by a large margin the biggest player in telomere science in the world. The 2005 study, although it has yet to be repeated, seems promising. Why they have chosen to give this small company an exclusive license I have no idea - I hope to speak to someone at Geron next about that. If Greta's claim that they can guarantee Telomerase activation can be substantiated, though - and Geron is also making this claim - then this is a tremendous breakthrough in life extension, given how critical I believe telomere length is to aging (my favorite synopsis: http://www.telomolec...se_studies.asp). Not enough for me to lay down 25K at this juncture, but as another poster put it, I think "we have an issue to follow, not swallow".



About Astralagus, if you look at the 2005 study results in the TASciences site, they mention that the placebo group was actually given TA-41, another astralagus extract, in order to simulate the taste of TA-65, I suppose to rule out that pyscological variable (?). So I do not think that taking Astralagus extract would by itself mimic the TA-65 effects. Also, reading a little about the patents, which unfortunately cannot be saved or copied from these sites (thanks to JLC):

http://tinyurl.com/2yypov
http://tinyurl.com/3db889

it appears that taking simple Astralagus would be a gross oversimplification of Geron's 15 years of research in this field behind TA-65 and what is described in these patents. However, if Geron did discover some much more diluted telomerase activation properties in parts of Astralagus, or in any other naturally occurring compound that cannot therefore be patented, it would not be motivated to tell the public. That's an interesting situation akin to the misuse of synthetic hormones for decades because the real ones could not be patented. If anyone with a has the spare time to earn a Phd in molecular biology and then read the entirety of those patents and try to decipher the degree to which the Astralagus was manipulated and share with the group, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks,

Jeff

#49 jranney

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:01 AM

Hi again.

I 'll make this post shorter.

For weeks I've thinking about how you could apply crowdsourcing to anti-aging research, and in particular telomere research and have been thinking about starting a company that did that. Tapping into the brain power of potentially 6 billion people, under the name of user-generated content/crowdsourcing, collaboration, has unleashed a tremendous force in this decade(Wikipedia, Firefox, Flickr, iStockPhoto, Linux, etc) that has rivaled and sometimes decimated, big corporate competition.

So what about the ultimate quest for immortality? Can those those same 6 billion people do nothing to help that along? Do they have to just sit by on the sidelines and make occasional forum posts? Judging by the 15,000+ threads here there are obviously a lot of motivated, educated and active people ready and interested to help out.

Also, the 25K price tag for TA-65, a substance that is somehow ultimately derived from a naturally occurring Chinese herb underscores a potentially dire situation - the rich get richer.. and now.. live forever too, consuming products that are engineered from plants that are abundant and free, but whose precious fruits are now controlled by corporations, given out at the price they name, and held out of reach from a good percentage of the population. When the first mice are immortalized, and the drug passes human trials, what will the price of that pill be? Will your cause of death be failure to save $500K?

But how to organize the solving of a complex problem like telomere extension? Can people, in a more organized web-based framework, perform studies on themselves and report back? Can knowledge-gathering projects be assigned to individuals and groups by virtual project managers, etc?

The Astralagus/TA-65 situation seems like an interesting case study. If a critical mass of people took various forms of Astralagus according to guidelines laid out in a set of 'publically requested studies' and had their telomeres measured (and perhaps telomerase activation measured) - paying for that themselves - and entered their results in the website, would we be getting somewhere? Might we as a group find out how to extend telomeres ourselves eventually? If in fact TASciences and Geron are hiding what is in fact a relatively easy extraction of ta-65 from Astralagus, might we as a group be able to get to the bottom of what they are doing in this way? Some people would screw up their numbers, but hopefully with enough people that would wash out in the mix. Is that dangerous or irresponsible?

What are everyone's thoughts?

#50 niner

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 03:50 AM

Clinical trials are pretty tough to run in the best of circumstances. Running one on a volunteer basis over the wacky net is going to be really tough. In order to work, I think at minimum someone would need to prepare the compounds and distribute them at low cost. Testing that involves blood draws would be another stumbling block.

The idea of using the net as a medical data gathering tool is not a bad one; I can think of some precedent here. Paul Wakfer at MoreLife.com has attempted this, and the "500 club" thread as well as some other threads here at ImmInst have done this with resveratrol. There are some smart people on this forum, and I've been very impressed with the progress they've made in developing a formulation that looks like it has the potential to significantly improve the bioavailability of resveratrol.

The problem with all the attempts that I've been aware of is the number of respondents. That number is a lot closer to six than it is to six billion.

#51 jranney

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 10:03 PM

Thanks for the response niner.

Yea, 6 billion is a tad optimistic I guess :) I looked through the 500 club thread you mentioned. Some interesting collaboration going on there - thanks!

#52 ampaynz1

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 03:14 PM

I bought 500 grams of astragalosides 2.5% powder. I took it four times so far. Took 6.6 grams first two days, then 5 grams and now last night took 1.65 grams. Well first does made me feel a little dizzy and got slight pushing sensation on my cheeks. When I'd wake up I'd feel almost normal, but had some right neck soreness. It hurt to turn neck on right side. Though this was more of stretching feeling than actual pain. I felt dizzy on work Saturday after 5 grams the night before. Then last night I took 1.65 grams. I again felt dizzy after taking it and this morning I have enlarged submaxillary lymph nodes on both sides that can be palpated as enlarged. Though they are still relatively small. Plus have some enlargement on right side of neck of deep cervical chain lymph nodes. I am guessing some proliferation is taking place cause by the astralagus extract. Not certain which constituent is causing this. Probably one of the non antiaging astralagosides that boosts B or T cell proliferation. Possible that my body might compensate in time, but I can't keep taking this extract.

I estimate I took 165 mg astralagosides first 2 days, then 125 mg , and last night 41 mg. Even at 41mg this stuff is potent as felt fine before I took it and had just recouped from last dose of 125mg. Of course what is needed is someone to purify what I have to astralagoside IV at 5grams. Now someone can purify using the steps starting on geron's patent filing to cycloastragenol. http://tinyurl.com/2yypov see page 40. Now we got out own TA-65 and no crazy side effects like activating the bodies interleukins which is what is causing my side effect. At least I wouldn't get sick from any infection if I took it unless it is lymphoma.

#53 tintinet

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 03:57 PM

So, this is the Nietzsche regime? ("What does not kill me, makes me stronger.")

#54 ampaynz1

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 03:05 AM

I started taking 10mg, but was still feeling dizzy and lymph nodes were enlarging more. I quit taking it for over a week and have felt completely normal for a few days. Lymph nodes started reducing in size too. Today I took about 5mg astragalosides which is about 1/16 teaspoon and will report how I hold up in next few days. I think this about the limit for me. I got 12.5 grams of astragalosides for $96 shipped. If I take 5mg each day it will last 6.8 years, so I will have to sell it to get fresh stock sometime. If a person bought those drops from GAII it would take 781 bottles to equal my 500 gram bag of extract. Based on 16mg of astragalosides per 30mL bottle.

#55 craigb527

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 12:45 AM

Contacted TA. They wanted 25k. Read up on them on the internet, will post the articles as soon as I find them again. It would seem they are full of it and have no proof supporting their data. Trying to make a quick buck. Also, isn't TA65 just an herbal supplement?

http://www.fightagin...ives/001181.php

http://groups.google...020fce84318ff2d

I just got off the phone with TA Science. Their Greta Blackburn claims
TA-65 definitely extends telomere length, not just slowing the rate of
shortening. The protocol will include three measurements of telomere
length. But she claims they were not able to measure telomere length
in their study. An obvious lie, when I asked about this discrepancy
she "didn't know".  She also claims the study was double blinded, but
a reduction in placebo group measurements always indicates to me that
the measurements were taken by unblinded techs. She has no knowledge
of when or where the study will be published. And has no in vivo
evidence for telomere extension. Once again I've been gullible.
Luckily my Bible says "thou shalt always require peer reviewed,
independent evidence."



#56 maxwatt

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 01:23 AM

May i call your attention to the following thread in sci.life-extension.com:
What is the TA Sciences TA-65 Molecule

Salient point:

-TA-65 is purified from Astragolide IV, a concentrated astragalus extract, and is thought to be cycloastragenol
-the naturally occuring astragaloside IV molecule is less potent than the cycloastragenol (the material mentioned in TA Sciences patent application
-the dose of cycloastragenol is 1 to 5 mg per day; this is as potent by their tests as 50 to 100 mg per day of astragaloside IV; not a linear relationship, but it is what they claim
- cycloastragenol was not present in other astragalus extracts they tested (only Astragolide IV)

Based on the information in the patent application - not always the most reliable of sources, I know - one could expect that supplementation with Astragolide IV to be a reasonable substitute for administration of TA-65. One could also take Paul Wakfer up on his offer to obtain TA-65 synthesized from Astragolide IV (see the link I provided.) The current market price in China for AstragolideIV is around $9500/ kg. A daily dose would be around $5 to $10 a day.

I would like to see more studies, or even one study, showing this substance lengthens telomeres.

#57 niner

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 01:26 AM

Contacted TA. They wanted 25k. Read up on them on the internet, will post the articles as soon as I find them again. It would seem they are full of it and have no proof supporting their data. Trying to make a quick buck. Also, isn't TA65 just an herbal supplement?

There's been a lot of discussion on TA Sciences and the "Patton Protocol" on Imminst, mostly in this thread. You might want to take a look at it. One of the TA guys presented at SENS3, and is now reporting measured increases in telomere length. Supposedly the reason they aren't doing real experiments (i.e. blinded, etc) is that if things get "too scientific" (or something) the FDA will get on their case for developing drugs. They want it to stay in the "dietary supplement" netherworld. I'm not wowed by that state of affairs, but it at least has a whiff of reasonableness about it. As far as TA65 being "just an herbal supplement", I guess I'd say yeah, like Taxol. In other words, it's a natural product, but it's not just an extract. I think that it's highly purified and well characterized.

#58 niner

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 04:12 AM

There is some interesting discussion of the TA-65 compound here: http://www.groupsrv....bout281728.html

#59 craigb527

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 04:22 AM

I think they tried to use TA 65 as a cancer drug?, it failed so they rebounded with the youth movement.

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#60 niner

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 04:38 AM

I think they tried to use TA 65 as a cancer drug?, it failed so they rebounded with the youth movement.


Do you have a reference for this?




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