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Dopamine in Foods?


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#1 curiosity

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 09:15 AM


Firstly, this is frustrating. I have a defeciency in dopamine and im trying to bring it back to normal levels. Apparently, synthetic dopamine drugs (l-dopa) is unsafe, poorly abosorbed, (and im not sure but I think it wears off, and then you just go back to defeciency, like it doesnt fix the problem, it doesnt make your brain produce more in the future, it just band aids it, am i right?), the whole thing is sketchy.

So what about from natural sources? ok so herbs and stuff also seem to be sketchy...

What about food? I haven't found anything about dopamine in food, I know it comes in milk, protein, fish, nuts blah blah blah but I eat tons of that everyday. Does it matter how much dopamine (from food or drugs) i put in my body? how does it get used by the brain?

Now you see the frustrating part?

So the ultimate question, how to safely get dopamine into your brain, used by your brain, and fix the problem from the inside out eventually, so that you dont have to keep spoonfeeding the defenciency

radical ideas accepted.

#2 lumnar

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 05:12 PM

What makes you think you have a deficiency in dopamine?

#3 lumnar

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 05:20 PM

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand your situation more... saying you need more dopamine is kind of vague. Do you have Parkinson's Disease?

You could try an anti-depressant: Wellbutrin or Deprenyl. As I understand, food sources of dopamine don't cross the blood brain barrier and so have a negligible effect, at least on your levels of dopamine as a neurotransmitter, dopamine as a anti-oxidant is apparently quite potent: High content of dopamine, a strong antioxidant, in cavendish banana.

I'm not sure about supplements. Hydergine sometimes comes up. I'd strongly recommend using the search facility of this forum, a lot of good information has been posted in the past.

(Maybe someone should start a FAQ thread?)

Anyways, I think you're right to be wary of L-Dopa unless you have PD.

#4 Shepard

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 05:38 PM

saying you need more dopamine is kind of vague. Do you have Parkinson's Disease?


That's classic.

But, honestly, if you're familiar enough with neurochemistry to diagnose yourself with a dopamine deficiency, you should be well-read enough to figure out how to go about correcting it.

#5 curiosity

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 09:51 PM

what I don't know, and can't find answers using google or the search engine:

does taking l-dopa or any form of dopamine fix the actual problem, of not making enough nuero transmitters, or do you have to do it the rest of your life or a long time to stay on a balanced level.

is there any safer form of dopamine besides l-dopa that will fix the problem in the brain (wellbutrin and deprenyl, as far as I have read, use L-Dopa, so unless they are unique in thier form of L-Dopa, that makes it safer, that is out of the question.

Keep in mind im not taking dopamine as a enhancer to get an edge, all I want is to fix the defenciency to a normal level. I need to know if this makes it safer to take L-Dopa?

Is dopamine in an antioxidant get to your brain to fix the nuerotransmitters, or just another road to uselessness.

When I did a search for dopamine on the forum and internet, all I found was talk about L-Dopa.

As far as I can tell about Hydergine, is that it stimulates dopamine receptors. Does this help in a dopamine nuerotransmitter problem? Or does it fix only one side of the nuerotransmitter?

Shepard, I didn't diagnose my dopamine defenciency, like many other people, I went to see a doctor, I have aspergers syndrome and I took a test which suggested im dopamine defecient, also, the doctor told me the correlations between my behaviour and the symptoms of dopamine defenciency, then I went home and did research on the lot of information he gave me. I dont think its fair to assume people diagnosed themselves when they give no hint they did so. My doctor is unaviable for a few months, even by phone.

I find its easy for other people to help other people, sort of like the old saying giving advice is easy but taking it yourself is hard. When it comes to myself, I have a lot of trouble finding the right answer.

UPDATE:

I found this on google

Phenylalanine
to
Tyrosine
to
L-Dopa
to
Dopamine
to
Norepinephrine
to
Epinephrine

So would taking anything before L-Dopa synthetically actually make "good" dopamine eventually or does the brain control that, and since I have a defenciency, it would just choose "not" to make more? Does the brain choose how much Phenylalanine is converted to dopamine eventually? or does it use all that you put in?

#6 ajnast4r

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 10:57 PM

RHODIOLA

#7 curiosity

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 11:28 PM

RHODIOLA


thank you so much, im going to do some research on it, I hope it turns out to be safe :-)

edit: nevermind, a dead end:

Rhodiola...
"In the cerebral cortex and brain stem, levels of nor-epinephrine and dopamine decreased, while the amount of serotonin increased substantially. In the hypothalamus, the results were reversed with a 3-fold increase in the amount of norepinephrine and dopamine, and a trend toward reduced serotonin levels. "

This would just cause more problems right? Imbalancing where the dopamine is located.

#8 Shepard

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 12:56 AM

Shepard, I didn't diagnose my dopamine defenciency, like many other people, I went to see a doctor, I have aspergers syndrome and I took a test which suggested im dopamine defecient, also, the doctor told me the correlations between my behaviour and the symptoms of dopamine defenciency, then I went home and did research on the lot of information he gave me. I dont think its fair to assume people diagnosed themselves when they give no hint they did so. My doctor is unaviable for a few months, even by phone.


Sorry if my assumption upset you. I've probably just spent too much time with people trying to fix normal problems with drugs.

Okay, how does caffeine treat you? Any difference in your problems?

I'd try tyrosine before L-Dopa and see how it goes. And, your lifestyle is going to play a part in overcoming your issues.

#9 lumnar

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 12:56 AM

what I don't know, and can't find answers using google or the search engine:

does taking l-dopa or any form of dopamine fix the actual problem, of not making enough nuero transmitters, or do you have to do it the rest of your life or a long time to stay on a balanced level.


Levadopa only works as long as you take. There's also some worrisome characteristics about it like, "Levodopa itself accelerates the disease by producing oxygen free radicals, unstable particles that increase injuries to the brain and dopamine degradation."
Would it have that effect in you if you didn't have Parkinson's? I don't know.

is there any safer form of dopamine besides l-dopa that will fix the problem in the brain (wellbutrin and deprenyl, as far as I have read, use L-Dopa, so unless they are unique in thier form of L-Dopa, that makes it safer, that is out of the question.


Are you sure about the L-Dopa <-> Wellbutrin, Deprenyl connection? I mostly get my info off Wikipedia (yes I know... elephant populations haven't tripled in the last couple of months :)) and I haven't seen anything like that. Not saying you're wrong, just curious if you could link me with a source.

Anyways all these drugs are a little sketchy. When you come right down to it, there's just not been that many human trials, especially in people who are otherwise healthy. Of all the drugs mentioned, the most well tested and probably safest is Wellbutrin. It also has the added advantage that you could easily and legally obtain it from a variety of medical practitioners without much hassle.

Keep in mind im not taking dopamine as a enhancer to get an edge, all I want is to fix the defenciency to a normal level. I need to know if this makes it safer to take L-Dopa?


I don't know why you're so quick to say that you're not taking it receive an edge, I can't imagine you'd be taking it for any other reason. What's the difference between your normal and some else's edge? In any case this is the Immortality Institute web page (most discussion revolves around tweaking as opposed to fixing), if you want simple medical advice there's probably more appropriate fora available... but there's nothing wrong with improving yourself IMHO, it's an excellent impulse to cultivate (while retaining your humanity of course), so hopefully you find some of information here useful.

On the other hand, it might not give you the edge you're looking for or even take away some of the gifts you might take for granted. I mean it could make you more "normal" to have a "normal" balance of brain chemicals. But normalcy is... well by definition mediocre and not all that great of thing to aspire to.

Disclosure time: I'm a dopamine fiend, take 5 mg of deprenyl daily, eat kilos of chocolate, take lots of intestinal flora supplements (based on an unattributed line in wikipedia that microbial fermentation produces amines) and drink lots of tea. It might not sound like much, but with brain chemistry less is more, otherwise the vicious scythe of homeostasis comes down on you like the judgment of a 1000 gods. Plus a scatter shot approach seems to keep your body from building up a tolerance to the various chemicals too quickly.

Some other chemicals you might want to try (and I've been meaning to try myself).

*Amphetamines -- I'm surprised no one's mentioned it (or that your doctor didn't mention it). When I hear dopamine that's the first drug that comes to my mind. It's in medical usage and it's pretty safe at prescribed doses. Hell, if you're a child in America it's practically in the drinking water (or should be -- why should only the rich kids get to benefit from its use?).

*Nardil -- MOAI. It's metabolites include phenylethylamine (hence the name phenelzine, I think), and it also inhibits the breakdown of said metabolite. Seems like it would be an interesting combination. Has other miscellaneous effects (serotonin, what's that? :)), so who knows? Relatively inexpensive, I think, since it's so old, but I haven't been able to find it on any my regular prescription-free drug sites.

What's interesting is how this whole family of drugs is all so similar (from dopamine to amphetamine to phenylethylamine to methamphetamine to X): Phenethylamines (PEA) Maybe I'm just obsessed with them. It's probably a good thing, I got scared away from chemistry way early, or I'd totally waste hours synthesizing some of these chemicals...

Anyways, I'd hypothesize that anything you do to increase PEA will benefit you. Without knowing anything about you beyond your Asperger's syndrome diagnosis, I'd further hypothesize that given the "cold" nature of people with the disorder you probably don't experience "love" much. Love is very related to PEA. That is, a some of the subjective effects people ascribe to love can similarly be reproduced with a bump in PEA, and that you're simultaneously deficient in dopamine and diagnosed with Asperger's seems a pretty strong coincidence.

But... I'm simply a random drug abuser on the internet... so what do I know?

Is dopamine in an antioxidant get to your brain to fix the nuerotransmitters, or just another road to uselessness.


You cannot simply eat dopamine to increase the levels of dopamine in your brain. But orally ingested dopamine is still _very_ good for you was my only point.

When I did a search for dopamine on the forum and internet, all I found was talk about L-Dopa.


You could try a natural source: Mucuna Pruriens It contains the same chemical, but it's easier to obtain and "natural" (whatever that means). Also, putting that term into the search box here will return some very information dense threads with a lot more considered debate about the relative merits of levadopa in general and mucuna pruriens in particular.

As far as I can tell about Hydergine, is that it stimulates dopamine receptors. Does this help in a dopamine nuerotransmitter problem? Or does it fix only one side of the nuerotransmitter?

Shepard, I didn't diagnose my dopamine defenciency, like many other people, I went to see a doctor, I have aspergers syndrome and I took a test which suggested im dopamine defecient, also, the doctor told me the correlations between my behaviour and the symptoms of dopamine defenciency, then I went home and did research on the lot of information he gave me. I dont think its fair to assume people diagnosed themselves when they give no hint they did so. My doctor is unaviable for a few months, even by phone.

I find its easy for other people to help other people, sort of like the old saying giving advice is easy but taking it yourself is hard. When it comes to myself, I have a lot of trouble finding the right answer.

UPDATE:

I found this on google

Phenylalanine
to
Tyrosine
to
L-Dopa
to
Dopamine
to
Norepinephrine
to
Epinephrine

So would taking anything before L-Dopa synthetically actually make "good" dopamine eventually or does the brain control that, and since I have a defenciency, it would just choose "not" to make more? Does the brain choose how much Phenylalanine is converted to dopamine eventually? or does it use all that you put in?


It really all depends on _why_ you don't have enough dopamine to begin with. That's a huge chain of chemical reactions you just summarized there. There's probably hundreds of points of failure to consider. Many that aren't even known by human scientists owing to the largely inscrutable nature of our own bodies.

In the end, the only way you're going to know is just to try it. None of the chemicals mentioned are going to going to kill you if you use them for a short duration, and if one seems to work, tell your doctor, get checked out and move from there.

BTW, I feel bashful even typing this, but you are solid on the basics right? Getting enough protein (60+ grams), physical activity and mental stimulation. While not as easy as popping pills, they're definitely more effective. To put it another way, you're going to get crappy results regardless unless you cover those basics.

Asperger's I'm not too about sure though. I'd be curious what having Asperger's is like. My own personal demon that I've been trying to conquer is low-grade (but constant) migraines, which might be a little similar to Autism. I've noticed that a lot of the behavioral aspects of autistic people seem to be like people who are undergoing intense pain. (I know at my worst, rhythmic tapping of my head is great way to take my mind off the pain).

Anyways, good luck and be safe (especially when doing something as dangerous as using mind altering drugs... even supposedly safe ones... always make sure to have an second person to objectively provide their observations).

Edited by lumnar, 27 August 2007 - 01:51 AM.


#10 curiosity

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 02:04 AM

thanks for the help guys, I'm going to try a scatter-approach like you said and try everything, alternating substances every 3-4 weeks until I get a preferred result ( I think it takes that long to kick in sometimes ). I have already fixed my symptoms of serotonin defecency with experimentation but I don't know what kind of damage it did. Good news is I am completly off medication for that, and all my depression and half my anxiety is gone (Some is due to lifestyle changes). The dopamine problem is affecting my motivation, sleep, fatigue, and inner "will" I believe, as I have been hijacked by caffiene and other stimulants (I suspect). I had been in withdrawal from dropping them altogether for awhile, but I think I need some supplementation to get things back to normal. I will try to do all the little things as you suggested that "could" help.

Another note: Heres my full list symptoms of what I believe to be caused by dopamine defeciency
High Blood Pressure
Low Sex Drive
Joint Pain (only the knees, strangely, and very serious at certain times of the day, non existent most of the time)
Anger (at myself only)
Excessive sleep (and I still feel tired), or Insomnia, it changes alot
Mood swings
Slow thought processing feed (I know this because i have periods of what feels like extremely fast thought speed, and then it goes away, and I feel tired)
Forgetfullness (pretty bad)
Failure to Finish Tasks (really bad, and I WANT to, I have the time, i just cant make myself, its the same with starting tasks, although I usually like to jump back and forth from tasks to satisfy my mood swings)
Craving Caffiene
Difficulty making decisions
Mind wandering (cant concentrate unless its extremely interesting, which means no self discipline)


As far as the "basics" go I am very mentally stimulated, and physically underfit for my age, but probably active enough to be considered "healthy for the sake of health", I mean that im not building any muscle or burning too many calories, but I do get decent excercise daily. I am an introvert and that doesnt help, but I do have a entrance level job, although I don't consider it hard manual labor. I am young, but I do eat poorly in contrast to you guys, I eat healthy in contrast to the average american. Also, when I do eat, I usually dont eat much at all that day. Its not that im trying Calorie Restriction or to lose weight (im very skinny) i just dont feel hungry at all (thirsty constantly)

As a kid I ate very healthily and was extroverted socially, and very physically fit, genetic depression found its way to haunt me as I started puberty, and it went all chaotic.

As opposed to most people, I view the world in a mechanical, "we are made up of cells" technical view, but I'm very optimistic about life, which I have been informed is a wierd perspective lol. Big lifestyle changes, I suspect, will start to change If I can get my fatigue problem fixed first.

#11 bob_d

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 02:52 AM

What about food? I haven't found anything about dopamine in food, I know it comes in milk, protein, fish, nuts blah blah blah but I eat tons of that everyday. Does it matter how much dopamine (from food or drugs) i put in my body?

no. if you don't inject it's always coming out the hole oposite to the one you put it in. so you can basically eat as much dopamine as you want.

Another note: Heres my full list symptoms of what I believe to be caused by dopamine defeciency
High Blood Pressure
Low Sex Drive
Joint Pain (only the knees, strangely, and very serious at certain times of the day, non existent most of the time)
Anger (at myself only)
Excessive sleep (and I still feel tired), or Insomnia, it changes alot
Mood swings
Slow thought processing feed (I know this because i have periods of what feels like extremely fast thought speed, and then it goes away, and I feel tired)
Forgetfullness (pretty bad)
Failure to Finish Tasks (really bad, and I WANT to, I have the time, i just cant make myself, its the same with starting tasks, although I usually like to jump back and forth from tasks to satisfy my mood swings)
Craving Caffiene
Difficulty making decisions
Mind wandering (cant concentrate unless its extremely interesting, which means no self discipline)

That symptoms sound to me much like hiv. so get used to the idea of dying early and painful.

Edited by bob_d, 29 August 2007 - 03:12 AM.


#12 roidjoe

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 05:00 AM

Hyperkalemia and hyperdopaminemia induced by an obsessive eating of banana in an anorexia nervosa adolescent.

Banana is known as a dopamine-rich and potassium-rich food, however no previous data regarding biochemical or psychological alteration induced by excess intake of banana has been reported. We have experienced an adolescent female case of Anorexia nervosa (AN) who denied eating anything but maximum 20 bananas and less than 500 ml mineral water per day for more than two years. During the period of massive banana eating habit, she showed increase of serum potassium (from 4.7 mEq/l to 6.1 mEq/l) and whole blood dopamine (from 11 ng/ml to 210 ng/ml; normal range 0.5-6.2 ng/ml), and obvious dysthymia that is inexplicable only by the pathology of AN. When the patient resumed other food ingestion after 26 months of obsessive and restricted eating of banana, the abnormalities in her blood data and her psychological state were all corrected toward normal. We conclude that in this case, the obsessive and restricted habit of banana ingestion resulted in hyperkalemia, hyperdopaminemia, and psychological change.



High content of dopamine, a strong antioxidant, in Cavendish banana.

A strong water-soluble antioxidant was identified in the popular commercial banana Musa cavendishii. It is dopamine, one of the catecholamines. For suppressing the oxygen uptake of linoleic acid in an emulsion and scavenging a diphenylpicrylhydrazyl radical, dopamine had greater antioxidative potency than glutathione, food additives such as butylated hydroxyanisole and hydroxytoluene, flavone luteolin, flavonol quercetin, and catechin, and similar potency to the strongest antioxidants gallocatechin gallate and ascorbic acid. Banana contained dopamine at high levels in both the peel and pulp. Dopamine levels ranged from 80-560 mg per 100 g in peel and 2.5-10 mg in pulp, even in ripened bananas ready to eat. Banana is thus one of the antioxidative foods.

#13 bob_d

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 06:27 AM

Dopamine is already degraded while passing the gut walls and has a bioavailability near zero. the bit that makes it to the bloodstream falls prey to mao and comt which metabolize it away within a few minutes. furthermore dopamine can't cross the blood brain barrier.
=> Quote 2 is crap and considering quote 1: You can't get direct psychological changes - despite the ones you get from a racing heart - due to dopamine thats absorbed in your bloodstream because the bbb thing. I'd bet that woman had not only this two blood parameters screwed up after 26 months of eating only bananas. But the conclusion potassium and dopamine levels in bananas are high, so if you eat lots of them for a long time your body starts adapting to a more bananiesque composition and your p and d levels rise therefore is really nice.

#14 graatch

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 07:11 AM

>Many that aren't even known by human scientists owing to the largely inscrutable nature of our own bodies

Does this statement imply that the Martians know if it's superb DAT or impaired DA release that's behind my ADD-Pi? ;-)

Forreal, nice post lumnar.

#15

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 06:03 PM

thanks for the help guys, I'm going to try a scatter-approach like you said and try everything, alternating substances every 3-4 weeks until I get a preferred result ( I think it takes that long to kick in sometimes ). I have already fixed my symptoms of serotonin defecency with experimentation but I don't know what kind of damage it did. Good news is I am completly off medication for that, and all my depression and half my anxiety is gone (Some is due to lifestyle changes). The dopamine problem is affecting my motivation, sleep, fatigue, and inner "will" I believe, as I have been hijacked by caffiene and other stimulants (I suspect). I had been in withdrawal from dropping them altogether for awhile, but I think I need some supplementation to get things back to normal. I will try to do all the little things as you suggested that "could" help.

Another note: Heres my full list symptoms of what I believe to be caused by dopamine defeciency
High Blood Pressure
Low Sex Drive
Joint Pain (only the knees, strangely, and very serious at certain times of the day, non existent most of the time)
Anger (at myself only)
Excessive sleep (and I still feel tired), or Insomnia, it changes alot
Mood swings
Slow thought processing feed (I know this because i have periods of what feels like extremely fast thought speed, and then it goes away, and I feel tired)
Forgetfullness (pretty bad)
Failure to Finish Tasks (really bad, and I WANT to, I have the time, i just cant make myself, its the same with starting tasks, although I usually like to jump back and forth from tasks to satisfy my mood swings)
Craving Caffiene
Difficulty making decisions
Mind wandering (cant concentrate unless its extremely interesting, which means no self discipline)


As far as the "basics" go I am very mentally stimulated, and physically underfit for my age, but probably active enough to be considered "healthy for the sake of health", I mean that im not building any muscle or burning too many calories, but I do get decent excercise daily. I am an introvert and that doesnt help, but I do have a entrance level job, although I don't consider it hard manual labor. I am young, but I do eat poorly in contrast to you guys, I eat healthy in contrast to the average american. Also, when I do eat, I usually dont eat much at all that day. Its not that im trying Calorie Restriction or to lose weight (im very skinny) i just dont feel hungry at all (thirsty constantly)

As a kid I ate very healthily and was extroverted socially, and very physically fit, genetic depression found its way to haunt me as I started puberty, and it went all chaotic.

As opposed to most people, I view the world in a mechanical, "we are made up of cells" technical view, but I'm very optimistic about life, which I have been informed is a wierd perspective lol. Big lifestyle changes, I suspect, will start to change If I can get my fatigue problem fixed first.


Most people supplement with tyrosine or DLPA. I use DLPA. So any food containing protein would contain DLPA or tyrosine but that doesn't help with increasing neurotransmitters, really. But these neuros are so much harder to increase then say serotonin.

I take deprenyl which has been a great help to me. I am also taking some PEA (phenyethylamine) which is helpful too, the only problem is that if you take deprenyl with the PEA then you need to watch the dose of PEA. Unique Nutrition has one PEA supplement in 250 mg. that is too high for me with the deprenyl. They also (and other companies) sell PEA powder. I don't know how much of the PEA powder I take (about 1/4 capsule or 60 mg). PEA and phenylalanine are hydrophobic so the powders can be a problem in that they will not mix in any water based liquid. The powder just floats on the surface, so I just put that powder on my tongue (unpleasant taste though). I also find that with PEA and deprenyl I need less DLPA and so have to buy that in powder form or use this other product Phenocane (which contains DLPA and curcumin). I was getting headaches from 500 mg. of DLPA per day. I think i need about 250 mg. or maybe 300 mg. DLPA is not sold in those amounts but mostly 500 mg.

This site has an interesting approach that I am basically using with some minor modifications. This is where I got some ideas of the doses of DLPA, deprenyl and PEA.

http://www.patentsto...escription.html

Unique Nutrition also sells l-dopa. I may try that tomorrow, just got the stuff today. They sell a 250 mg. capsule but I have the powder.

I am glad you mentioned the difficulty making decisions. I think that is a symptom I have too, but wasn't sure since I am basically indecisive lately. I have movement problems like loss of fine motor skills in my hands, lack of coordination (in my hands mostly) and intention tremors. Of course I also have lots of other symptoms as well, but the movement problems can help you know that dopamine may be a factor.

I use an orthomolecular approach which means I take mega doses of nutritional supplements. My dopamine and serotonin levels are low because of my vitamin b6 dependency (pyroluria). Low dopamine levels may indicate some underlying problem perhaps. But if you use DLPA or tyrosine you will probably need to take some extra b6 and some other nutrients too.

Your symptoms, I think, could be low dopamine (DA) and low norepinephrine (NE). My main complaint is apathy and lethargy, which is consistent with low DA and NE levels. Or lack of motivation and lack of initiative; motivation I think is DA and initiative is NE, I think. When I do get my NE levels up I can get pretty cocky or controntational. Low NE levels induced in mice will cause the mice to not want to explore their environment which I take to mean as lack of initiative. I also find that my brain feels fried or shut down from any type of stress.

I can get really frustrated or angry when my hands don't seem to want to function properly for me.

I wish there were some food that would help me but it is so much more complicated than just changing your diet.

#16 shifter

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 08:14 AM

Blueberries may also help. Use google to read up info.

#17 versagus

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 01:52 AM

thanks for the help guys, I'm going to try a scatter-approach like you said and try everything, alternating substances every 3-4 weeks until I get a preferred result ( I think it takes that long to kick in sometimes ). I have already fixed my symptoms of serotonin defecency with experimentation but I don't know what kind of damage it did. Good news is I am completly off medication for that, and all my depression and half my anxiety is gone (Some is due to lifestyle changes). The dopamine problem is affecting my motivation, sleep, fatigue, and inner "will" I believe, as I have been hijacked by caffiene and other stimulants (I suspect). I had been in withdrawal from dropping them altogether for awhile, but I think I need some supplementation to get things back to normal. I will try to do all the little things as you suggested that "could" help.

Another note: Heres my full list symptoms of what I believe to be caused by dopamine defeciency
High Blood Pressure
Low Sex Drive
Joint Pain (only the knees, strangely, and very serious at certain times of the day, non existent most of the time)
Anger (at myself only)
Excessive sleep (and I still feel tired), or Insomnia, it changes alot
Mood swings
Slow thought processing feed (I know this because i have periods of what feels like extremely fast thought speed, and then it goes away, and I feel tired)
Forgetfullness (pretty bad)
Failure to Finish Tasks (really bad, and I WANT to, I have the time, i just cant make myself, its the same with starting tasks, although I usually like to jump back and forth from tasks to satisfy my mood swings)
Craving Caffiene
Difficulty making decisions
Mind wandering (cant concentrate unless its extremely interesting, which means no self discipline)


As far as the "basics" go I am very mentally stimulated, and physically underfit for my age, but probably active enough to be considered "healthy for the sake of health", I mean that im not building any muscle or burning too many calories, but I do get decent excercise daily. I am an introvert and that doesnt help, but I do have a entrance level job, although I don't consider it hard manual labor. I am young, but I do eat poorly in contrast to you guys, I eat healthy in contrast to the average american. Also, when I do eat, I usually dont eat much at all that day. Its not that im trying Calorie Restriction or to lose weight (im very skinny) i just dont feel hungry at all (thirsty constantly)

As a kid I ate very healthily and was extroverted socially, and very physically fit, genetic depression found its way to haunt me as I started puberty, and it went all chaotic.

As opposed to most people, I view the world in a mechanical, "we are made up of cells" technical view, but I'm very optimistic about life, which I have been informed is a wierd perspective lol. Big lifestyle changes, I suspect, will start to change If I can get my fatigue problem fixed first.


Most people supplement with tyrosine or DLPA. I use DLPA. So any food containing protein would contain DLPA or tyrosine but that doesn't help with increasing neurotransmitters, really. But these neuros are so much harder to increase then say serotonin.

I take deprenyl which has been a great help to me. I am also taking some PEA (phenyethylamine) which is helpful too, the only problem is that if you take deprenyl with the PEA then you need to watch the dose of PEA. Unique Nutrition has one PEA supplement in 250 mg. that is too high for me with the deprenyl. They also (and other companies) sell PEA powder. I don't know how much of the PEA powder I take (about 1/4 capsule or 60 mg). PEA and phenylalanine are hydrophobic so the powders can be a problem in that they will not mix in any water based liquid. The powder just floats on the surface, so I just put that powder on my tongue (unpleasant taste though). I also find that with PEA and deprenyl I need less DLPA and so have to buy that in powder form or use this other product Phenocane (which contains DLPA and curcumin). I was getting headaches from 500 mg. of DLPA per day. I think i need about 250 mg. or maybe 300 mg. DLPA is not sold in those amounts but mostly 500 mg.

This site has an interesting approach that I am basically using with some minor modifications. This is where I got some ideas of the doses of DLPA, deprenyl and PEA.

http://www.patentsto...escription.html

Unique Nutrition also sells l-dopa. I may try that tomorrow, just got the stuff today. They sell a 250 mg. capsule but I have the powder.

I am glad you mentioned the difficulty making decisions. I think that is a symptom I have too, but wasn't sure since I am basically indecisive lately. I have movement problems like loss of fine motor skills in my hands, lack of coordination (in my hands mostly) and intention tremors. Of course I also have lots of other symptoms as well, but the movement problems can help you know that dopamine may be a factor.

I use an orthomolecular approach which means I take mega doses of nutritional supplements. My dopamine and serotonin levels are low because of my vitamin b6 dependency (pyroluria). Low dopamine levels may indicate some underlying problem perhaps. But if you use DLPA or tyrosine you will probably need to take some extra b6 and some other nutrients too.

Your symptoms, I think, could be low dopamine (DA) and low norepinephrine (NE). My main complaint is apathy and lethargy, which is consistent with low DA and NE levels. Or lack of motivation and lack of initiative; motivation I think is DA and initiative is NE, I think. When I do get my NE levels up I can get pretty cocky or controntational. Low NE levels induced in mice will cause the mice to not want to explore their environment which I take to mean as lack of initiative. I also find that my brain feels fried or shut down from any type of stress.

I can get really frustrated or angry when my hands don't seem to want to function properly for me.

I wish there were some food that would help me but it is so much more complicated than just changing your diet.



Hey, I'm new to this website and I have simaler problems that you have been describing. I'm currently taking a treatment like yours for pyroluria and low dopamine problems. I'm just interested to know whethor or not you have recovered from your apathy and lethargy.

The best,

Versagus

#18 oregon

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 04:58 AM

How did you diagnosed with this deficiency?

Dopamin can be boosted, for example, with phenylalanine. However, I don't recommend taking amino acids. If you eat protein, you are getting a balanced set of amino acids, not just one in particular. Most amino acids do not exist in nature in their pure form at all.

I would recommend a high protein diet. But be careful because it has a few downsides. I suggest you to research it.




------
Checkout this thread: http://www.imminst.o...als-t20103.html

#19 Ghostrider

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 08:02 AM

How did you diagnosed with this deficiency?

Dopamin can be boosted, for example, with phenylalanine. However, I don't recommend taking amino acids. If you eat protein, you are getting a balanced set of amino acids, not just one in particular. Most amino acids do not exist in nature in their pure form at all.

I would recommend a high protein diet. But be careful because it has a few downsides. I suggest you to research it.




------
Checkout this thread: http://www.imminst.o...als-t20103.html


If you look on the side of a can of Pepsi, there is a warning that it contains phenylalanine. I wondered why this was...

#20 woly

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 08:36 AM

How did you diagnosed with this deficiency?

Dopamin can be boosted, for example, with phenylalanine. However, I don't recommend taking amino acids. If you eat protein, you are getting a balanced set of amino acids, not just one in particular. Most amino acids do not exist in nature in their pure form at all.

I would recommend a high protein diet. But be careful because it has a few downsides. I suggest you to research it.




------
Checkout this thread: http://www.imminst.o...als-t20103.html


If you look on the side of a can of Pepsi, there is a warning that it contains phenylalanine. I wondered why this was...


some people lack the enzyme that breaks down phenylalanine therefore making pepsi dangerous to drink for those people affected. its not relevent to most people.

#21 Ghostrider

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 02:17 PM

How did you diagnosed with this deficiency?

Dopamin can be boosted, for example, with phenylalanine. However, I don't recommend taking amino acids. If you eat protein, you are getting a balanced set of amino acids, not just one in particular. Most amino acids do not exist in nature in their pure form at all.

I would recommend a high protein diet. But be careful because it has a few downsides. I suggest you to research it.




------
Checkout this thread: http://www.imminst.o...als-t20103.html


If you look on the side of a can of Pepsi, there is a warning that it contains phenylalanine. I wondered why this was...


some people lack the enzyme that breaks down phenylalanine therefore making pepsi dangerous to drink for those people affected. its not relevent to most people.


But did they include it to boost dopamine?

#22 Shepard

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 04:59 PM

But did they include it to boost dopamine?


Phenylalanine is only in diet drinks. It's a component of aspartame.

#23

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 04:25 PM

thanks for the help guys, I'm going to try a scatter-approach like you said and try everything, alternating substances every 3-4 weeks until I get a preferred result ( I think it takes that long to kick in sometimes ). I have already fixed my symptoms of serotonin defecency with experimentation but I don't know what kind of damage it did. Good news is I am completly off medication for that, and all my depression and half my anxiety is gone (Some is due to lifestyle changes). The dopamine problem is affecting my motivation, sleep, fatigue, and inner "will" I believe, as I have been hijacked by caffiene and other stimulants (I suspect). I had been in withdrawal from dropping them altogether for awhile, but I think I need some supplementation to get things back to normal. I will try to do all the little things as you suggested that "could" help.

Another note: Heres my full list symptoms of what I believe to be caused by dopamine defeciency
High Blood Pressure
Low Sex Drive
Joint Pain (only the knees, strangely, and very serious at certain times of the day, non existent most of the time)
Anger (at myself only)
Excessive sleep (and I still feel tired), or Insomnia, it changes alot
Mood swings
Slow thought processing feed (I know this because i have periods of what feels like extremely fast thought speed, and then it goes away, and I feel tired)
Forgetfullness (pretty bad)
Failure to Finish Tasks (really bad, and I WANT to, I have the time, i just cant make myself, its the same with starting tasks, although I usually like to jump back and forth from tasks to satisfy my mood swings)
Craving Caffiene
Difficulty making decisions
Mind wandering (cant concentrate unless its extremely interesting, which means no self discipline)


As far as the "basics" go I am very mentally stimulated, and physically underfit for my age, but probably active enough to be considered "healthy for the sake of health", I mean that im not building any muscle or burning too many calories, but I do get decent excercise daily. I am an introvert and that doesnt help, but I do have a entrance level job, although I don't consider it hard manual labor. I am young, but I do eat poorly in contrast to you guys, I eat healthy in contrast to the average american. Also, when I do eat, I usually dont eat much at all that day. Its not that im trying Calorie Restriction or to lose weight (im very skinny) i just dont feel hungry at all (thirsty constantly)

As a kid I ate very healthily and was extroverted socially, and very physically fit, genetic depression found its way to haunt me as I started puberty, and it went all chaotic.

As opposed to most people, I view the world in a mechanical, "we are made up of cells" technical view, but I'm very optimistic about life, which I have been informed is a wierd perspective lol. Big lifestyle changes, I suspect, will start to change If I can get my fatigue problem fixed first.


Most people supplement with tyrosine or DLPA. I use DLPA. So any food containing protein would contain DLPA or tyrosine but that doesn't help with increasing neurotransmitters, really. But these neuros are so much harder to increase then say serotonin.

I take deprenyl which has been a great help to me. I am also taking some PEA (phenyethylamine) which is helpful too, the only problem is that if you take deprenyl with the PEA then you need to watch the dose of PEA. Unique Nutrition has one PEA supplement in 250 mg. that is too high for me with the deprenyl. They also (and other companies) sell PEA powder. I don't know how much of the PEA powder I take (about 1/4 capsule or 60 mg). PEA and phenylalanine are hydrophobic so the powders can be a problem in that they will not mix in any water based liquid. The powder just floats on the surface, so I just put that powder on my tongue (unpleasant taste though). I also find that with PEA and deprenyl I need less DLPA and so have to buy that in powder form or use this other product Phenocane (which contains DLPA and curcumin). I was getting headaches from 500 mg. of DLPA per day. I think i need about 250 mg. or maybe 300 mg. DLPA is not sold in those amounts but mostly 500 mg.

This site has an interesting approach that I am basically using with some minor modifications. This is where I got some ideas of the doses of DLPA, deprenyl and PEA.

http://www.patentsto...escription.html

Unique Nutrition also sells l-dopa. I may try that tomorrow, just got the stuff today. They sell a 250 mg. capsule but I have the powder.

I am glad you mentioned the difficulty making decisions. I think that is a symptom I have too, but wasn't sure since I am basically indecisive lately. I have movement problems like loss of fine motor skills in my hands, lack of coordination (in my hands mostly) and intention tremors. Of course I also have lots of other symptoms as well, but the movement problems can help you know that dopamine may be a factor.

I use an orthomolecular approach which means I take mega doses of nutritional supplements. My dopamine and serotonin levels are low because of my vitamin b6 dependency (pyroluria). Low dopamine levels may indicate some underlying problem perhaps. But if you use DLPA or tyrosine you will probably need to take some extra b6 and some other nutrients too.

Your symptoms, I think, could be low dopamine (DA) and low norepinephrine (NE). My main complaint is apathy and lethargy, which is consistent with low DA and NE levels. Or lack of motivation and lack of initiative; motivation I think is DA and initiative is NE, I think. When I do get my NE levels up I can get pretty cocky or controntational. Low NE levels induced in mice will cause the mice to not want to explore their environment which I take to mean as lack of initiative. I also find that my brain feels fried or shut down from any type of stress.

I can get really frustrated or angry when my hands don't seem to want to function properly for me.

I wish there were some food that would help me but it is so much more complicated than just changing your diet.



Hey, I'm new to this website and I have simaler problems that you have been describing. I'm currently taking a treatment like yours for pyroluria and low dopamine problems. I'm just interested to know whethor or not you have recovered from your apathy and lethargy.

The best,

Versagus


I had a urine analysis showing my neurotransmitters not too long ago. I was high in all neuros except for epinephrine (E) which was low (histamine was balanced but not surprising). I realized though that I was not taking enough pantothenic acid, which might explain why my E levels were low. My cortisol levels were low too, which is not surprising. I think some other steriod hormones, like testosterone were low too.

So mentally I am feeling much better, but I am not there yet physically because of the pantothenic acid deficiency. I was supplementing pantothenic acid all along but not enough apparently. Now I am taking really high doses of pantothenic acid, beta alanine, brewer's yeast and royal jelly. Some of the sypmptoms have improved (like bad insomnia problems and low blood sugar problems), but not all right now. It take times to correct any deficiency.

I also have histapenia, which is low histamine levels. I found balancing my histamine levels easy to do. When my histamine levels get too low or too high I can tell. There are signs for either imbalance that I easily correct. My homocysteine levels were good at 4.3 which is I thinkanother indication of balancing my histamine levels. Since the body gets rid of histamine through methylation balanced histamine levels can help you keep tabs on your methylation rates.

I am hoping that the pantothenic acid deficiency is the last problem I have. But the process has been one of elimination. When I have the most important deficiencies under control (like zinc & b6 and balanced histamine levels) then I get these new symptoms that indicate something else is missing. So I am hoping that my adrenals will be healthy (with cortisol levels in normal range) and won't have the low energy levels I am still dealing with now.

#24

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 03:00 PM

Broad Beans/Fava Beans(Vicia faba) are rich in L-dopa which is a precursor to Dopamine. The following clinical studies prove the bioavailability of L-dopa in broad beans.

Broad bean (Vicia faba) consumption and Parkinson's disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8420210

Improvement of parkinsonian features correlate with high plasma levodopa values after broad bean (Vicia faba) consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1527547

Broad bean (Vicia faba)--a natural source of L-dopa--prolongs "on" periods in patients with Parkinson's disease who have "on-off" fluctuations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10634260

Case of neuroleptic malignant-like syndrome precipitated by abrupt fava bean discontinuance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15719433

Edited by amara, 23 April 2008 - 03:01 PM.





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