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Astragalus, Astragaloside IV


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#2071 niner

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:51 AM

according to both Dr David Woynarowski and Ed Park TA65 is not an effective topical treatment. Considering AIV has an even greater molecular weight I wouldn't expect it to work either.


That's interesting. So what astragalus compounds do we think they they are using in this patent, assigned to Geron (which is the patent holder for TA65 as well)?

The patent includes extraction instructions (using 95% ethanol).

The present invention relates to formulations containing plant extracts, and in particular to formulations containing Astragalus extracts, and their use in skin conditioning, in protecting the skin from UV damage, and in inducing telomerase activity in cells.
http://patents.justi...ent/20070122501


Patents get loaded up with every conceivable application, in case any of them later turn out to work. The appearance of an application in a patent doesn't mean that it's actually been tried, or that it will work. If Ed Park, Doctor TA-65 Hype himself, says it's not an effective topical, it must really suck. Skin evolved to keep molecules out, not let them pass. It's pretty good at that.

#2072 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:30 AM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.

#2073 marcobjj

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:37 AM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.


has it been proven that TA65 can cross the blood brain barrier?

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#2074 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:08 AM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.


has it been proven that TA65 can cross the blood brain barrier?


I would say where else can the strange and outrageous dreaming come from with TA65. I have experienced as many others have. In no way do they seem like dreams but seem like they are real experiences while asleep, and another thing they may be flashes out of the distant past and that can be real nerve rattling. It is real hard to explain. I take it during the day normally to try and not have those dreams as much. I also take it every other day rather than every day.

Now unless you suppose some strange chemical is made in the body in reponse to it, and that crosses over into the brain, then I would say it has to be crossing it to get those dreams. Dreams don't bother me, but those do. I started taking it early in 2011 and have been taking it ever since even though I might lay off of it for months and usually in low dosages to save money. In early 2013 I took the last I had and started the C60, and yesterday started on it again. Each one has there positive effects and my very strong hunch is both together may be almost the perfect brew, especially if you are above 50.

Btw these dreams off it is one way they can tell it is getting absorbed and working.
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#2075 balance

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:01 AM

I've been taking 6-8 capsules daily of TA-65 for a few months now, never noticed anything different about dreams. In fact, hardly notice/remember any dreams at all.

#2076 GreenPower

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:37 AM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.


has it been proven that TA65 can cross the blood brain barrier?


I would say where else can the strange and outrageous dreaming come from with TA65. I have experienced as many others have. In no way do they seem like dreams but seem like they are real experiences while asleep, and another thing they may be flashes out of the distant past and that can be real nerve rattling. It is real hard to explain. I take it during the day normally to try and not have those dreams as much. I also take it every other day rather than every day.

Now unless you suppose some strange chemical is made in the body in reponse to it, and that crosses over into the brain, then I would say it has to be crossing it to get those dreams. Dreams don't bother me, but those do. I started taking it early in 2011 and have been taking it ever since even though I might lay off of it for months and usually in low dosages to save money. In early 2013 I took the last I had and started the C60, and yesterday started on it again. Each one has there positive effects and my very strong hunch is both together may be almost the perfect brew, especially if you are above 50.

Btw these dreams off it is one way they can tell it is getting absorbed and working.


Interesting, is it something like lucid dreaming?

Using different combinations of IV, Cyclo or St Astragalus I've not noticed an increase of strange dreams myself. However, as I've stated before, I have noticed effects on the nervous system similar to when using SSRI's - especially in the beginning of a regimen or when stepping up the dose. This includes the positive effects as well as the more adverse effects of dry mouth (including bad breath), drowsiness, headache (Cyclo only, but I seem to handle it better this time) and changes in sleep (wanting to sleep more) - and also recollection of distant memories you've not accessed in a long time.

I do note that "extremely vivid or strange dreams" is listed among the side effects of SSRI's.

This makes me wonder if several of the positive effects peope experience when taking Astragalus related extracts might not be attributed to SSRI-like effects on the nervous system rather than any rejuvenating effects it might have as well.
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#2077 GreenPower

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:01 AM

What's your opinion? Any experience with topical AS IV? I think the low bioavailability is less of an issue when applied topically, and I would also be interested in any effect on hair follicles.


Once upon a time (2009) I bought some "Astragaloside IV Cream". I don't think it did very much and I see the company making it has now switched it for something with Resveratrol/ L-Carnosine/CoEnzymeQ10.

I think L-carnosine absolutely makes sense. I don't know whether Resveratrol has any advantage over Pterostilbenes, are the any dermatologic studies? (getting off-topic here).

Back to AS IV: what was the concentration of the cream? did you exfoliate? How long did you use it?

Anyway, I don't think you would see any immediate change the way it's supposed to work. But skin should be a good target for telomerase activation due to the high replication rate.


I used up one package. The only noticable effect was a small wrinkle to the left of my left eye. It disappeared after a year or two.

I'm sorry to say I don't remember the concentration, but I found a reference on DuckDuckGo which states "1% (w/v)". I'm not sure what else they might have added.

#2078 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:12 AM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.


has it been proven that TA65 can cross the blood brain barrier?


I would say where else can the strange and outrageous dreaming come from with TA65. I have experienced as many others have. In no way do they seem like dreams but seem like they are real experiences while asleep, and another thing they may be flashes out of the distant past and that can be real nerve rattling. It is real hard to explain. I take it during the day normally to try and not have those dreams as much. I also take it every other day rather than every day.

Now unless you suppose some strange chemical is made in the body in reponse to it, and that crosses over into the brain, then I would say it has to be crossing it to get those dreams. Dreams don't bother me, but those do. I started taking it early in 2011 and have been taking it ever since even though I might lay off of it for months and usually in low dosages to save money. In early 2013 I took the last I had and started the C60, and yesterday started on it again. Each one has there positive effects and my very strong hunch is both together may be almost the perfect brew, especially if you are above 50.

Btw these dreams off it is one way they can tell it is getting absorbed and working.


Interesting, is it something like lucid dreaming?

Using different combinations of IV, Cyclo or St Astragalus I've not noticed an increase of strange dreams myself. However, as I've stated before, I have noticed effects on the nervous system similar to when using SSRI's - especially in the beginning of a regimen or when stepping up the dose. This includes the positive effects as well as the more adverse effects of dry mouth (including bad breath), drowsiness, headache (Cyclo only, but I seem to handle it better this time) and changes in sleep (wanting to sleep more) - and also recollection of distant memories you've not accessed in a long time.

I do note that "extremely vivid or strange dreams" is listed among the side effects of SSRI's.

This makes me wonder if several of the positive effects peope experience when taking Astragalus related extracts might not be attributed to SSRI-like effects on the nervous system rather than any rejuvenating effects it might have as well.



Well Astragalus is many molecules in small amounts and it probably varies from one type of plant or region it is grown in to another as far as make up, just a guess.

The dreams for me were like you took a recording of a every minute of your life, and then at random selected so many minutes of it to live again. In away, they seem very real like you are there and it is happening but also not very special kind of like most of the minutes of life.

Now I have a really crazy theory of why they are happening. Park says we grow or replace 15,000 neurons a night and what if our brains record everything we see and do without us being conscious of it, and what if with telomerase and its repair and enhancing replacement ability with the neurons our brain transfers memories to the new neurons, as those neurons containing them start to die out there by preserving them and that is replayed in the dreams for some reason. Like I said they seem totally real and from 10-30 years in the past and nothing like a dream.

Now Park calls it lucid dreaming, but mine do not seem like a dream, that seems real or vibrant. More normal real and nothing created, just played back. I am there and then I am not and awake. It gets hard to adjust to that kind of time shift LOL

Here is his youtube/podcast on dreams



I saw this article on the latest tech of super athletes today and they mention TA65, but not the dreaming

http://www.mensjourn...thlete-20130729

#2079 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:31 AM

I've been taking 6-8 capsules daily of TA-65 for a few months now, never noticed anything different about dreams. In fact, hardly notice/remember any dreams at all.



If you don't wake up in a dream you won't remember it. I think they say the average person has about 4 dreams a night. My sleep patterns can get strange at times with short naps and short sleep cycles at night, but as I said taking the TA65 in the morning or middle of the day seems to lesson the tendency to have those kind of dreams at night for me. Park seems to think it absorbs better with some fat. It is both fat and water soluble according to him. I have tried it with nothing, and with fat (milk, ice cream, and even poured the capsules on some bread and then put olive oil on the powder and let it soak for a few minutes), and I couldn't tell any difference for me in absorption. I even tried a little DMSO with it and didn't see a difference.

I have heard some are encapsulating it in lecithin like some are doing with C and getting better absorption, but haven't tried that yet.

#2080 balance

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:36 AM

I've been taking 6-8 capsules daily of TA-65 for a few months now, never noticed anything different about dreams. In fact, hardly notice/remember any dreams at all.



If you don't wake up in a dream you won't remember it. I think they say the average person has about 4 dreams a night. My sleep patterns can get strange at times with short naps and short sleep cycles at night, but as I said taking the TA65 in the morning or middle of the day seems to lesson the tendency to have those kind of dreams at night for me. Park seems to think it absorbs better with some fat. It is both fat and water soluble according to him. I have tried it with nothing, and with fat (milk, ice cream, and even poured the capsules on some bread and then put olive oil on the powder and let it soak for a few minutes), and I couldn't tell any difference for me in absorption. I even tried a little DMSO with it and didn't see a difference.

I have heard some are encapsulating it in lecithin like some are doing with C and getting better absorption, but haven't tried that yet.



I have very fragmented sleeping patterns also, waking up often. I'll try taking TA-65 at night with almond butter which is very fat and see if it makes any difference. If it does, I'll post so here.

Is TA-90 a product for telomeres as well or does it have a different function? I'm considering ordering a bottle to test it out.

#2081 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:43 AM

I've been taking 6-8 capsules daily of TA-65 for a few months now, never noticed anything different about dreams. In fact, hardly notice/remember any dreams at all.



If you don't wake up in a dream you won't remember it. I think they say the average person has about 4 dreams a night. My sleep patterns can get strange at times with short naps and short sleep cycles at night, but as I said taking the TA65 in the morning or middle of the day seems to lesson the tendency to have those kind of dreams at night for me. Park seems to think it absorbs better with some fat. It is both fat and water soluble according to him. I have tried it with nothing, and with fat (milk, ice cream, and even poured the capsules on some bread and then put olive oil on the powder and let it soak for a few minutes), and I couldn't tell any difference for me in absorption. I even tried a little DMSO with it and didn't see a difference.

I have heard some are encapsulating it in lecithin like some are doing with C and getting better absorption, but haven't tried that yet.



I have very fragmented sleeping patterns also, waking up often. I'll try taking TA-65 at night with almond butter which is very fat and see if it makes any difference. If it does, I'll post so here.

Is TA-90 a product for telomeres as well or does it have a different function? I'm considering ordering a bottle to test it out.



I don't know what TA90 is I don't think. Are you taking the C60oo too?? I think the combo with the TA65 is a pretty potent mix taken during the same periods. I have a theory once again that the C60oo may protect the telomeres for ROS and perhaps other types of free radical damage. And in my way of thinking a telomerase inducer would have less repairs to do daily with it. No proof, just pure imagination really on that concept. I just started back on inducing telomerase but on the C60oo still and I should know more in a few months, if the combo has legs or more so than each individually.

#2082 GreenPower

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:21 PM

Well Astragalus is many molecules in small amounts and it probably varies from one type of plant or region it is grown in to another as far as make up, just a guess.

The dreams for me were like you took a recording of a every minute of your life, and then at random selected so many minutes of it to live again. In away, they seem very real like you are there and it is happening but also not very special kind of like most of the minutes of life.

Now I have a really crazy theory of why they are happening. Park says we grow or replace 15,000 neurons a night and what if our brains record everything we see and do without us being conscious of it, and what if with telomerase and its repair and enhancing replacement ability with the neurons our brain transfers memories to the new neurons, as those neurons containing them start to die out there by preserving them and that is replayed in the dreams for some reason. Like I said they seem totally real and from 10-30 years in the past and nothing like a dream.

Now Park calls it lucid dreaming, but mine do not seem like a dream, that seems real or vibrant. More normal real and nothing created, just played back. I am there and then I am not and awake. It gets hard to adjust to that kind of time shift LOL


I had a look at Dr Parks Podcast. Quite interesting theories you have. A few thoughts.

1. Similarity in effects
Many of the effects he describe in the first slides are the same as can be experienced while using SSRI's. This include drowsiness, altered sleep patterns and also an "enhancement", although personally I only had them while awake and not while dreaming, of many of the senses. Examples of the latter are that colours may be experienced as more colourful, smell is much more pronounced and that food tastes much more than before.

My own alternate theory is therefore that Astragalus/Cyclo/TA-65 works in a similar fashion with regards to the central nervous system.

2. Old memories
Your theory is that the neurons of our brains transfers memories to the new neurons while they are replaced during sleep and that memories are then replayed. I don't think this would occur during the actual replication of "the memories", because it would be hard to put together a coherent dream before you knew exactly which neurons have been replaced. I think it might be more logical if the brain ran a control program afterwards - on the parts of the brain where neurons have been found to be replaced. This would be done in order to verify that memories which might have been affected are still intact, perhaps by verifying that the the memories "as a whole" seem to be logical and coherent. At least that's the way I would construct the system :-)

Personally I think the reason why SSRI's, and possible Astragalus, triggers old memories is that they affect the sensitivity of of neurotransmitters. By blocking the reuptake pumps of neurotransmitters they make it easier for neurons which have not been activated in a long time to be triggered. This also includes being triggered by mistake while the central nervous system recalibrates to a new baseline with a new higher level of serotonin/dopamine/etc present in the synaptic clefts, triggering old almost forgotten memories at the same time. If these memory recollections occur during daytime, why not during sleep?

Or this might be a combination. The playback of the memory replication might suddenly contain more distant memories which have suddenly come on-line again. The neurons which contained them might previously have been "cut off" from the network but are now on-line again due to some neurons newly increased sensitivity to the neurotransmitter substances which tries to trigger them.

3. Effects on parts of the brain
There are several different types of neurotransmitters, but if Astragalus/Cyclo/TA-65 should affect the Serotonin system, there are several interesting places where it can have an effect, maybe by simply enhancing the sensitivity of nerve cells in these places. You might note that the thalamus and hypothalamus are among these, which might affect consciousness, sleep and the circadian rhythm. It also includes the hippocampus which might affect the handling of the consolidation of short term memory to long term memory.

3. Lucid dreaming and meditation
I also had more lucid dreams while younger, but not that many lately. I note that lucid dreams seem to occur in the Beta 1 frequency band. This is just above the Alpha band where you most likely will be during meditation. If you want to experiment with measuring brain waves during meditation, I can recommend using a MindWave. It's a pretty good tool for learning to control your mind. I'm not sure how good it will be for measuring the activity during sleep though, because it will probably fall off if you move around a lot while sleeping. There are more game related headband variants of it which might work better for that purpose, but I don't have one, so I've not been able to try to pair it to a computer where you can measure your activity.

You might also try out a sleep phase alarm clock.You can upload the nights log to a computer where you will see approximations of your sleep phases. You need to do the uploads regularly, though. The clock doesn't have that much memory and then it will overwrite the logs.

Edited by GreenPower, 23 August 2013 - 12:32 PM.


#2083 marcobjj

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.


has it been proven that TA65 can cross the blood brain barrier?


I would say where else can the strange and outrageous dreaming come from with TA65. I have experienced as many others have. In no way do they seem like dreams but seem like they are real experiences while asleep, and another thing they may be flashes out of the distant past and that can be real nerve rattling. It is real hard to explain. I take it during the day normally to try and not have those dreams as much. I also take it every other day rather than every day.

Now unless you suppose some strange chemical is made in the body in reponse to it, and that crosses over into the brain, then I would say it has to be crossing it to get those dreams. Dreams don't bother me, but those do. I started taking it early in 2011 and have been taking it ever since even though I might lay off of it for months and usually in low dosages to save money. In early 2013 I took the last I had and started the C60, and yesterday started on it again. Each one has there positive effects and my very strong hunch is both together may be almost the perfect brew, especially if you are above 50.

Btw these dreams off it is one way they can tell it is getting absorbed and working.


those dreams could be the result of an overall improvement in your health and immune system caused by TA65 rather than telomerase activation on your brain though. Like for example when I'm too exausted or over exercised I don't have dreams or at least don't remember them.

#2084 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:17 PM

Taken internally the skin gets the telomerase inducement too and changes, along with the brain and body.


has it been proven that TA65 can cross the blood brain barrier?


I would say where else can the strange and outrageous dreaming come from with TA65. I have experienced as many others have. In no way do they seem like dreams but seem like they are real experiences while asleep, and another thing they may be flashes out of the distant past and that can be real nerve rattling. It is real hard to explain. I take it during the day normally to try and not have those dreams as much. I also take it every other day rather than every day.

Now unless you suppose some strange chemical is made in the body in reponse to it, and that crosses over into the brain, then I would say it has to be crossing it to get those dreams. Dreams don't bother me, but those do. I started taking it early in 2011 and have been taking it ever since even though I might lay off of it for months and usually in low dosages to save money. In early 2013 I took the last I had and started the C60, and yesterday started on it again. Each one has there positive effects and my very strong hunch is both together may be almost the perfect brew, especially if you are above 50.

Btw these dreams off it is one way they can tell it is getting absorbed and working.


those dreams could be the result of an overall improvement in your health and immune system caused by TA65 rather than telomerase activation on your brain though. Like for example when I'm too exausted or over exercised I don't have dreams or at least don't remember them.



I am 65 and have had improvements before i health and never dreams like this, which seem just like replays of my normal life but deep in the past. No sensation of dreaming, just waking up and knowing that didn't just happen, unless I am time travelling in my sleep LOL

Like I said too when taking it away from times I will sleep or when not taking it this won't happen. I may have an interesting dream dream but not those. I know some taking Epitalon report strange dreams as well. I don't know if they are the same type I have experienced but both seem to trigger changes in dreams, at least in some people.

I know some say they have sounder sleep, but for good sound sleep DHEA works pretty good especially for older people. Now why I have no clue, just call me clueless :-D

#2085 hav

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:37 PM

... I said taking the TA65 in the morning or middle of the day seems to lesson the tendency to have those kind of dreams at night for me. Park seems to think it absorbs better with some fat. It is both fat and water soluble according to him. I have tried it with nothing, and with fat (milk, ice cream, and even poured the capsules on some bread and then put olive oil on the powder and let it soak for a few minutes), and I couldn't tell any difference for me in absorption. I even tried a little DMSO with it and didn't see a difference.

I have heard some are encapsulating it in lecithin like some are doing with C and getting better absorption, but haven't tried that yet.


I always assumed it was strictly water soluble. Mainly because mixing it with chitosan enhances absorption. Chitosan is known to latch onto fats and prevent their absorption and eliminate them. Maybe something else is going on. Maybe chitosan grabs hold of fat molecules which some astragalus-contained molecules steal. Might explain allot if its both lipid and water soluble, because lipid solubility would suggest it can cross the BBB. Wonder if it might cross the blood retina barrier too.

If it wasn't so expensive, I'd be tempted to see if I could measure cycloastragenol solubility in olive oil myself.

There are other possibilities, however, that might also explain ssri-like effects. I've seen some mention that astragalus-containing molecules behave like anti-histamines, reducing microvascular permeability. Maybe those molecules also reduce the enhanced permeability of the BBB itself apparently caused by histamine in combo with serotonin... a repeat of a study like this one might be able to prove or disprove that. If they tested their spider venom in combo with astragalus molecules.

Howard

#2086 free10

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:04 PM

... I said taking the TA65 in the morning or middle of the day seems to lesson the tendency to have those kind of dreams at night for me. Park seems to think it absorbs better with some fat. It is both fat and water soluble according to him. I have tried it with nothing, and with fat (milk, ice cream, and even poured the capsules on some bread and then put olive oil on the powder and let it soak for a few minutes), and I couldn't tell any difference for me in absorption. I even tried a little DMSO with it and didn't see a difference.

I have heard some are encapsulating it in lecithin like some are doing with C and getting better absorption, but haven't tried that yet.


I always assumed it was strictly water soluble. Mainly because mixing it with chitosan enhances absorption. Chitosan is known to latch onto fats and prevent their absorption and eliminate them. Maybe something else is going on. Maybe chitosan grabs hold of fat molecules which some astragalus-contained molecules steal. Might explain allot if its both lipid and water soluble, because lipid solubility would suggest it can cross the BBB. Wonder if it might cross the blood retina barrier too.

If it wasn't so expensive, I'd be tempted to see if I could measure cycloastragenol solubility in olive oil myself.

There are other possibilities, however, that might also explain ssri-like effects. I've seen some mention that astragalus-containing molecules behave like anti-histamines, reducing microvascular permeability. Maybe those molecules also reduce the enhanced permeability of the BBB itself apparently caused by histamine in combo with serotonin... a repeat of a study like this one might be able to prove or disprove that. If they tested their spider venom in combo with astragalus molecules.

Howard


Well, good luck on trying to get it to dissolve in something. I have tried olive oil, DMSO and water a,d it sure doesn't seem to want to dissolve in them at least over several minutes. Definitely expensive but Crackaging's stuff is cheaper and I have a 10% off code for it (1346283137) and then you get another 10% off from them on reorders too plus another 10% for any orders done using your code they give you, but it is China and takes awhile to get here.

#2087 hav

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:36 PM

Just been hunting down any mention of cycloastragenol solubility and found this:

Solubility:Respectively soluble in Alcohol, Methanol, Acetone. Insoluble in Water, Ether



Looks like alcohol may be the best bet.

Howard

#2088 hav

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:54 PM

Still digging but I think I understand my error. I confused astragaloside iv and cycloastragenol which apparently have very different availability characteristics. Astragaloside iv is the one that the chitosan study dealt with:

Both chitosan and sodium deoxycholate can increase the permeation efficiency of astragaloside IV. This study indicated that astragaloside IV having a low fraction dose absorbed in humans mainly due to its poor intestinal permeability, high molecular weight, low lipophilicity as well as its paracelluar transport may directly result in the low permeability through its passive transport. Meanwhile, chitosan and sodium deoxycholate can be used as absorption enhancers based on its transport mechanism.


I'm now guessing that chisosan may in fact do nothing good for cycloastragenol. I think Astragaloside iv may also be the one with both lipid and water solubility. But according to this, it's low:

The absorption of astragaloside IV in the in vitro models of transport studied here was found to be low. This is probably due to its large molecular weight and poor solubility both in water (1 mg/ml) and in lipid.


I also came across something detailing the process often used for creating standardized astragalus extracts:

It is relatively easy to isolate polysaccharides by first using hot water extraction and then condensing these large molecules out of solution with alcohol. Commercial astragalus extracts have been standardized to 40-50% polysaccharides; some sources claim ability to provide 70-90% polysaccharides.


Which suggests that if cycloastragenol is insoluble in water but soluble in alcohol, the above process would result no cycloastragenol in the extract. Astragaloside iv might be present in small quantities, however, assuming its alcohol solubility is also low. I've found conflicting info on that detail, some saying its insoluble, others saying it is soluble in alcohol.

Howard

#2089 DorianGrey

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

I just happened to be reading up on dmso and what it can transport through the skin. One source says it can't transport insulin because its too large a molecule at 5808 da. Another source says it can transport molecules smaller than 1,000 da, if they dissolve. As4 at 788 should work but cycloastragenol at 491 should be even easier. Just don't know if dmso would be the best vehicle in this case.

Howard


The dermal barrier threshold is said to be 500 da, so AS IV at 788 da is wasted, Cyclo may work. I wouldn't apply DMSO on my skin, that's a solvent and makes proteins wobbly.
I read you can get bigger stuff down to the hair follicles, seems to be a mechanical mechanism of transport. Also I don't believe that you get a working SOD protein to the follicle, maybe a smaller protein like KGF.

If that's a cure for grey hair it would be nice cosmetics, but it's not something that improves the skin on a larger scale.

What's the experience with AS IV as a hair tonic?

#2090 hav

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

The dermal barrier threshold is said to be 500 da, so AS IV at 788 da is wasted, Cyclo may work. I wouldn't apply DMSO on my skin, that's a solvent and makes proteins wobbly.
I read you can get bigger stuff down to the hair follicles, seems to be a mechanical mechanism of transport. Also I don't believe that you get a working SOD protein to the follicle, maybe a smaller protein like KGF.

If that's a cure for grey hair it would be nice cosmetics, but it's not something that improves the skin on a larger scale.

What's the experience with AS IV as a hair tonic?


Found the reference to the 500 Dalton rule. And another one that says there's more to it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2835875/
... and seems to suggest trial and error over a general rule of thumb.

Howard

#2091 marcobjj

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:54 AM

According to Dr. Schultz in this video, exfoliation does not speed up replicative senescence because the hayflick limit is not applicable to the stem cells in the skin. I think it's been proven that stem cells do in fact go through replicative senescence as well?



#2092 GreenPower

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:42 PM

I am 65 and have had improvements before i health and never dreams like this, which seem just like replays of my normal life but deep in the past. No sensation of dreaming, just waking up and knowing that didn't just happen, unless I am time travelling in my sleep LOL

Like I said too when taking it away from times I will sleep or when not taking it this won't happen. I may have an interesting dream dream but not those. I know some taking Epitalon report strange dreams as well. I don't know if they are the same type I have experienced but both seem to trigger changes in dreams, at least in some people.

I know some say they have sounder sleep, but for good sound sleep DHEA works pretty good especially for older people. Now why I have no clue, just call me clueless :-D


I've gradually increased the dose in my daily regimen to: 2 x "Standardized Astragalus" (Solgar) and 2x10mg of Cycloastragenol. In the beginning I got the same type of headache that I reported on a few years back. But this time there's a slight difference in circumstances. Last time I had a limited amount of sleep due to hours and hours of working overtime, now I've been able to sleep more.

It would seem that this dose makes me need more sleep and if I'm not able to increase the number of hours I sleep I get a headache.

Regarding vivid dreams, I've always had rather clear and vivid dreams, so there's nothing much which could have changed there :-)

#2093 DorianGrey

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:35 PM

This Dr. Schultz isn't serious? You're skin is definitely not made of stem cells but differentiated cells, healing slows significantly down over time and about one third of skin cells become senescent in old skin, or where does he think the sagging and wrinkles come from?
At least excessive exfoliation is something you definitely want to avoid. I really don't see an good reason to remove a protective layer from your skin if you don't have skin issues due to that layer.

Edited by DorianGrey, 15 September 2013 - 02:35 PM.


#2094 marcobjj

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:40 PM

". I really don't see an good reason to remove a protective layer from your skin if you don't have skin issues due to that layer. "

getting rid of senescent cells improves aging markers:

http://mariakonovale...ed-pathologies/

#2095 DorianGrey

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 11:24 PM

". I really don't see an good reason to remove a protective layer from your skin if you don't have skin issues due to that layer. "

getting rid of senescent cells improves aging markers:

http://mariakonovale...ed-pathologies/

Interesting study, but the senescent cells were inside the body and not on an outer layer (I think the lens counts as "inside". Exfoliating helps to remove dead material. Sure you look younger immediately after and the skin rejuvenates a bit, but what is the long-term effect?

#2096 marcobjj

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:28 AM

I'm not sure what difference the placement of senescent cells make, whether their in or outer layer they're proven to be harmful.

The effect of exfoliation isn't just immediately after, exfoliating helps to erase scar tissue. one of my friends basically lost the left side of his face in a bicycle accident as kid, through laser exfoliation over the years the doctors were able to eliminate all scars and now he looks normal.

#2097 DorianGrey

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:47 PM

I'm not sure what difference the placement of senescent cells make, whether their in or outer layer they're proven to be harmful.

The effect of exfoliation isn't just immediately after, exfoliating helps to erase scar tissue. one of my friends basically lost the left side of his face in a bicycle accident as kid, through laser exfoliation over the years the doctors were able to eliminate all scars and now he looks normal.

Exfoliating scar tissue is a bit different than exfoliating more or less healthy skin every other day the rest of your life.


With skin, there's a one way direction to get rid of most senescent cells and junk. Now, by exfoliating you accelerate that process, but also make the skin more susceptible to outside harm (UV, airborn particles and free radicals, germs). You may be right about cytotoxins on the other hand, I find it hard to say if that's a huge factor for someone with a healthy life-style.

The question is: does that rejuvenation process that is initiated by exfoliating eventually run out of steam during a long life-span? Considering the fact there exists a Hayflick limit and telomers of differentiated skin cells usually get shorter, especially after the fifth decade in human, you come to the same trade off we see with tanning (looks good in your twenties but you have to deal with the aftermath at the end of the 30'ies). Maybe just a little later.

Please proof me wrong. I am talking about exfoliating frequently, at least weekly.

#2098 marcobjj

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:50 PM

laser scar exfoliation is in fact a much more intense process.

Terminally differentiated cells such as skin do not get shorter on telomeres as they don't undergo mitosis or replicative senescence for that matter. Rather they inherit the amount of telomeres from the stem cells that give them origin.

#2099 marcobjj

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:05 PM

Bill Andrews announced that Sierra Sciences has discovered 39 telomerase activators that at up to 100 times more potent than TA65 and Product B. Trials to begin in 3 years.


Edited by marcobjj, 16 September 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#2100 DorianGrey

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:18 PM

laser scar exfoliation is in fact a much more intense process.

Terminally differentiated cells such as skin do not get shorter on telomeres as they don't undergo mitosis or replicative senescence for that matter. Rather they inherit the amount of telomeres from the stem cells that give them origin.

I've done some research on Google because I came along the exfoliation idea in one of the books I recently read and the dermatologist strongly advised. More often than not, I learned M.D.'s have very little scientific background (biology, chemistry, biochemistry, physics). Even if these guys may be great in treating a fungus or cutting out a mole or prescribing you an ointment, empiric or outdated knowledge doesn't trump Medline or scientific reasoning.

Apart from ther Hayflick limit, there's another good reason to limit your exfoliation practice:

http://www.bienetres...liation-part-2/
If we over-exfoliate our epidermis, we are sending an emergency message to our skin to send up extra nutrients form the dermis in order to repair damage. The dermis thins with age at a rate of 1% per year in healthy skin (more in inflamed or damaged skin). Due to its job as “protector”, the epidermis is not allowed to thin – so…when we over exfoliate, nutrients from the dermis are sent up to the epidermis, an act that starves our precious dermis of nutrition.

There are many similar entries. It's also more or less a myth that differentiated cells wouldn't divide (although there are some that don't):
http://www.researchg...an_cells_divide




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