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Ketogenic diets


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#391 Schnurbi

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 07:06 AM

Hey edward, if you really want to get into this, start listening to the bulletproofexec podcast. It got me started- especially the first 10 episodes or so really go deep on ketosis, high fat, etc. Don't consume too much protein though ;)



#392 mikeinnaples

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:17 PM

Hi Mike. Good info. Are you saying that once you are keto adapted, that you then drop out of ketosis? If so, do you keep limiting carbs?

 

No that is not what I am saying.

 

To stay in keto, you have to keep limiting carbs. However, the amount of ketones you excrete in urine will change during the process.


My fats are mainly Avocado, Fish, Olive Oil,  (some) Cheese, and Nuts fwiw.



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#393 Heisok

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 05:15 AM

i wonder how probiotics manage on restricted fat diets. not sure how bacterias will use fat as energy...

 

That's a good question. I do not have a firm answer, but I think that not all "prebiotic" foods are high in starches/carbs.

 

Dr. Perlmutter lists some at the following link. Personally, I eat a lot of greens, broccoli, cauliflower, avocado, celery,  some carrots and even some cooked and chilled rice. Just not too much at any one meal.

 

As far as constipation, I have not had a problem as the fats might help.

 

 

http://www.drperlmut...in-maker-foods/

 

The bulletproof diet book, and the Wahls Protocol (Dr. Terry Wahls) book, in addition to Dr. Perlmutters work discuss the issues.

 

Thanks for the clarification Mike.


Edited by Heisok, 29 June 2016 - 05:21 AM.

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#394 playground

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 10:13 PM

As for the constipation... my top tip... is to drink a 1/3 teaspoon

of epsom salt (magnesium sulphate) in a glass of water.

 

This does 2 things.

1.  it increases your bodily magnesium levels  (low magnesium levels can cause constipation)

2.  It will have a laxative effect and help you go to the loo.

 

Get into the habit of doing it every day.. say 1 hour after a specific meal.

And you should find it restores your regularity.

 

If there's no 'action' within 60 minutes, take another 1/3rd teaspoon dose of epsom salt.

 

 



#395 playground

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 12:38 PM

I have question.

 

First, a little preamble.

We know that being keto adapted means that your body will jealously guard it's current

levels of vitamins.   So, for example, the Inuit can spend 9 months of the year eating only

fat and meat (but no veggies... so no vitamin C)... and remain perfectly healthy. 

This 9 months without veggies was  enough to make lots of sailors very ill during long

sea voyages... (ill with scurvy).

 

So we know human bodies process vitamins more efficiently when keto adapted.

 

Here's my question.

Vitamin A and Vitamin D can be toxic if taken to excess.

I'm currently taking 20,000 IUs per week of Vitamin D3. 

Will my keto adapted body be saving up all this D3 ?  

Might i end up with toxic levels ?

 



#396 platypus

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 01:32 PM

I have question.

 

First, a little preamble.

We know that being keto adapted means that your body will jealously guard it's current

levels of vitamins.   So, for example, the Inuit can spend 9 months of the year eating only

fat and meat (but no veggies... so no vitamin C)... and remain perfectly healthy. 

Wikipedia says:

 

 Vitamin C is obtained through sources such as caribou liver, kelpwhale skin, and seal brain; because these foods are typically eaten raw or frozen, the vitamin C they contain, which would be destroyed by cooking, is instead preserved.[31]

 


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#397 playground

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Posted 10 August 2016 - 11:53 AM

Kelp is seaweed.  So it's a vegetable.

Your argument seems to be that there's vitamin C in caribou liver and whale skin.

 

Is there vitamin C in fish ?

In seal blubber ? 

In walrus meat ?

 

Human bodies jealously guard their vitamins from excretion when on a ketogenic diet.

 

The Inuit (many other peoples of the artic) would all get scurvy if this were not so,

because the length of the Arctic winter means no access to plants and fruits for

9 months of the year.


Edited by playground, 10 August 2016 - 11:53 AM.

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#398 aza

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 08:44 AM

Not showing signs of scurvy is not the same thing as having optimal vitamin c status.

Also, i found two interesting things.

http://www.unhcr.org/4cbef0599.pdf

"In 1953, the British Medical Research Council reviewed previous experimental studies and concluded that healthy men have stores of vitamin C sufficient to enable them to remain on deficient diets for periods

ranging from 160–200 days without developing overt scurvy (Hodges et al., 1971). It was also stated that a daily dose of 10 mg of vitamin C was sufficient to prevent scurvy for as long as

424 days and that the same dose was enough to cure scurvy once it had appeared"

And this, http://pubs.aina.uca...tic32-2-135.pdf

Basically, if raw fish/ringed seal liver/whale epidermis is available its easy to get more then enough vitamin c. Once cooked however, it becomes much more difficult to obtain.

Plus, the Inuit would have access to partially digested plant matter from the stomachs of caribou.

Also poor vitamin c status seemed to be very common


Edited by aza, 12 August 2016 - 08:49 AM.


#399 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 03:11 AM

I supplement C in my stack. 4.000 iu daily.   I eat high nutrient density greens for my carbs and a keto diet can be very healthy in every way.  I eat 50 - 75n grams of protein from nutrient rich sources.  Yes fat is a major source of energy not carbs.  I am no longer diabetic and my doctor said my last blood panel most people would die for. (No pun intended. :) )



#400 normalizing

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 01:48 PM

i believe this guy, he has -267 reputation


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#401 shadowhawk

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 06:25 PM

i believe this guy, he has -267

You don't have a clue how this happened. Off topic, ad hominen comment and non responsive to what was said.  Do you have anything meaningful to say?  :)  A low carb high fat diet can cure diabetes and be healthful.Respond to that if you can.


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#402 normalizing

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 06:27 PM

well, all i need is references, thats what i put now


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#403 playground

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 09:48 AM

Human bodies, that have undergone keto-adaption,

retain vitamins much better than non-keto-adapted bodies.

 

Ordinarily, if you go without fruit and veggies for 3 months

you can expect the symptoms of scurvy to appear.

This is what routinely happened to sailors doing long

sea voyages in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

The important point is: It just takes three 3 months to run

out of vitamin C -- if you are  NOT keto-adapted.

 

However, if you are keto-adapted you can go over 12 months

without suffering scurvy.

 

Here is some evidence to support this:

 

Some quotes:

 

Harvard-trained anthropologist named Vilhjalmur Stefansson entered the Arctic with the purpose of studying the Inuit language and culture. ... when separated from his expedition and thus his source of [food] supply over the winter of 1906–7, Stefansson was taken in by a group of Inuit on the Canadian Arctic coast. With the arrival of spring in June of 1907, he both spoke their language and had acquired their skill of living and traveling by dogsled on a hunter's diet.
 For the next decade, Stefansson traveled extensively over the arctic mainland and among the islands to the north. During this period, he was away from the outposts of European settlement for periods of up to 18 months at a time, and in the remote regions of the Canadian Arctic he lived with groups of Inuit for whom he was the first European they had met.
 Stefansson wrote extensively about these experiences in both the scientific literature and in books for the lay public [7]. One of the main themes of his writing was the adaptation of the Inuit culture to survive as nomadic groups in the arctic on a diet consisting solely of the products of hunting and fishing. Coming as it did in the same time period that the science of nutrition was blossoming with the discovery and characterization of vitamins (eg, the first vitamin to be chemically defined was thiamin by Funk in 1911), Stefansson's claim that one could live and function well on the products of just one food group caused tremendous controversy.
 Subjected to great criticism and even scorn, Stefansson agreed to recreate the Inuit diet under scientific observation. Therefore, for the calendar year of 1929 he and a colleague from his arctic explorations ate a diet consisting of meat and fat for 12 months. This experiment, supervised by Dr. Eugene DuBois, was conducted at Bellevue Hospital in New York. For the first 3 months of this study, the two explorers were under constant observation to guarantee dietary compliance, after which they were allowed more freedom of movement but with frequent tests to document that they remained in ketosis. This study was reported in multiple peer-reviewed publications, the primary reports being published in the Journal of Biological Chemistry in 1930 [9,10], As noted by DuBois [8], the study results were essentially "negative", in that both subjects survived the 12 months in apparent good health, having no signs of scurvy (which was predicted to occur within the first 3 months) or other deficiency diseases.

 

Source:  Ketogenic diets and physical performance

( http://www.ncbi.nlm....43-7075-1-2.pdf )

 

 

So there you have it.  In a nut shell:

These two men, lived for 12 months on nothing but meat and fat.

They did so under supervised conditions in Bellevue Hospital in New York

(Which was at that time a lunatic asylum.. i.e.  with locked doors, like a prison).

 

They were expected to suffer scurvy in 3 months.

They failed to show scurvy after 12 months.

 

(Note:  Obviously, the Inuit (and other groups) have survived for

thousands of years trekking across the Arctic living almost entirely

on fat and meat.)

 

Human bodies behave very differently on a ketogenic diet.

with respect to vitamin excretion.

 

Some have speculated that a ketogenic diet might actually have been our

original ancestral diet during the autumn and winter months of the year.

And might have been the predominate diet for groups living on marine

resources during all times of the year.


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#404 playground

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:16 AM

Back to my original question:

 

Premise1:  We know human bodies process vitamins more efficiently when keto-adapted.

Premise2:  Vitamin A and Vitamin D can be toxic if taken to excess.

 

Question:  I'm currently taking 20,000 IUs per week of Vitamin D3. 

Will my keto adapted body be saving up all this D3 ?  

Might i end up with toxic levels ?



#405 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 09:09 PM

I take 14,000 a day and have done this for some time.  Had no problems.  My blood tests as of early July were great.  There are many reasons to have a good D level.  It is hard to become toxic.  I take all my supplements including KETO ESTERS, twice a day.

 


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#406 playground

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 10:14 PM

I take 14,000 a day and have done this for some time.  Had no problems.  My blood tests as of early July were great.  There are many reasons to have a good D level.  It is hard to become toxic.  I take all my supplements including KETO ESTERS, twice a day.

 

I presume you mean 1,400 per day.

Or... are you really taking 14K IUs of vitamin D3 per day ?

If you are... then... i recommend you stop.

Because you must be taking 7 X 14 = 98,000 IUs per week.


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#407 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:11 PM

7,000 IU in the morning plus 7,000 IU in the evening.  I fast 36 hours twice a week and 18 hours twice a week.  I an KETO  adapted  high fat moderate protein, low carb.  I take other supplement twice a day.  I do HIT exercises twice a week.  You will get far more D in a short time in the sun than I take.  Twice a year I take a full blood panel with custom tests I am watching.  D is no problem in the doses I am taking.


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#408 aza

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 09:25 AM

Back to my original question:

 

Premise1:  We know human bodies process vitamins more efficiently when keto-adapted.

Premise2:  Vitamin A and Vitamin D can be toxic if taken to excess.

 

Question:  I'm currently taking 20,000 IUs per week of Vitamin D3. 

Will my keto adapted body be saving up all this D3 ?  

Might i end up with toxic levels ?

 

I dont think your first premise is a given. Here is something i posted in another topic

really interesting two part article here. http://freetheanimal...prebiotics.html http://freetheanimal...prebiotics.html

Basically, the inuit ate some carbs from freshly killed animals and did eat some plant foods. They also got prebiotics in the form of glycans, which degrade with time and cooking. Seriously interesting stuff.

 

"In addition to the high glycogen content of the fresh postmortem skin, few people seem to be aware that blubber isn't just fat. It tends to have significant levels of carbohydrates. For instance, the posterior, dorsal blubber of a sperm whale is 25% carbohydrates."

"Internal organs are rich in glycogen and skin and gut epithelium are composed largely of glycoproteins."

 

"The Inuit ate plants as well, when they were available. As Tim Steele will tell you firsthand, Alaska is not a barren wasteland devoid of plants. Berries, seaweed, nuts, corms, and tubers are found everywhere in Alaska.

They also ate lots of "mouse food" (see photo), which are caches of seeds and roots and foods that mice gathered for the Winter. This would including "Yupik potatoes" which were gathered in the Fall and consumed by the Inuit over the Winter."

http://ajcn.nutritio.../8/737.full.pdf

"Approximately 50% of the calories were derived from fat and 30 to 35% from protein. Carbohydrate accounted for only 15 to 20% of their calories, largely in the form of glycogen from the meat they consumed."

"the Eskimo practice of preserving a whole seal or bird carcass under an intact whole skin with a thick layer of blubber also permits some proteins to degrade into carbohydrates."

 

Average total daily caloric intake was approximately 3,000 kcal per person, ranging from 2,300 to 4,500 kcal, which means they averaged around 115-150g carbs, ate a minimum of 85g and a maximum of 225g. Plus the protien, and they did not seem to be in ketosis most of the time,

"Each Eskimo’s serum was tested for the presence of ketone bodies by the strip paper technique (18), which is sensitive to concentrations of 1 mg/ 100 ml or greater and all serums were negative."

 

This probably means that other hunter gatherers would also eat slightly more carbohydrates then they seem. http://www.nrjournal...0091-1/abstract

"Hunter-gatherer diets were characterized by an identical carbohydrate intake (30%-35% of the total energy)"

It could very well be slightly higher, such as 35%-40%. This all taken together suggests that the normal range of carbs for hunter gatherers is 20-40%.


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#409 aza

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:23 AM

As for vitamin d, "The aggregation of published data revealed that 2909 IU of vitamin D per day is needed to achieve serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D) concentrations of 50 nmol/L or more in 97.5% of healthy individuals. For normal weight, overweight and obese program participants this was 3094, 4450 and 7248 IU respectively.". So, 3000iu for the vast majority people of a normal weight to get it over 20ng/ml, although most would be much higher then 20ng/dl by this point. Considering that benefits past 35ng/ml are mainly theoretical i dont think there is much of a reason to supplement with more if levels are already around there. Although, two hunter gatherer populations have been found to have an average of 43-48. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22264449 . Additionally, i think getting vitamin d from the sun is generally preferable, due to what little is known about vitamin D3 sulfate from sunlight. One other benefit is its effects on circadian rhythms.

 

Also "Several human skin diseases, like psoriasis, vitiligo, atopic dermatitis and localized scleroderma, can be treated with solar radiation (heliotherapy) or artificial UV radiation (phototherapy). UV exposure can suppress the clinical symptoms of multiple sclerosis independently of vitamin D synthesis. Furthermore, UV generates nitric oxide (NO), which may reduce blood pressure and generally improve cardiovascular health. UVA-induced NO may also have antimicrobial effects and furthermore, act as a neurotransmitter. Finally, UV exposure may improve mood through the release of endorphins."http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3427189/

 

Plus red and near infared (plus many other wavelengths of light) good article on their benefits. http://valtsus.blogs...d-and-near.html


Edited by aza, 21 August 2016 - 10:25 AM.

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#410 aza

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:39 AM


So there you have it.  In a nut shell:

These two men, lived for 12 months on nothing but meat and fat.

They did so under supervised conditions in Bellevue Hospital in New York

(Which was at that time a lunatic asylum.. i.e.  with locked doors, like a prison).

 

They were expected to suffer scurvy in 3 months.

They failed to show scurvy after 12 months.

 

From what i said earlier "It was also stated that a daily dose of 10 mg of vitamin C was sufficient to prevent scurvy for as long as

424 days and that the same dose was enough to cure scurvy once it had appeared" If they were managing to hit 10mg or even a little bit lower, they would not develop scurvy in that amount of time.

Its probable that they reached that threshold, particularly if they were eating  organs/raw meat. That does not mean that human bodies process vitamins more efficiently when keto-adapted. Especially considering that the inuit did not seem to go into ketosis often.
 


Edited by aza, 21 August 2016 - 10:40 AM.

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#411 aza

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:44 AM

Sorry for the spam, last point. The expected time to develop scurvy was probably based on sailors. Who had a very vitamin low vitamin c diet and what little vitamin c they did consume degraded as time passed. They mainly ate salted meat, hardtack (It's a cracker made from flour, water, and sometimes salt.) and alcohol (which may increase vitamin c requirements as well).






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