12 replies to this topic

[tarbtl]

I've been taking Adderall on and off for a few months now, and since starting school in February, I take it daily. From 20-30mg a day or so. It's the only thing keeping me through school.

I've read just like everyone the conjecture and such but has there recently been any studies or new info? I'm only asking because I came across a random quote which kind of scared me and made me post this lol FWIW, I take lots of antioxidants, ALCAR, rala, the works..


From what we've discussed briefly in neuro, abuse of stimulant amphetamines results in permanent damage to structures in the brain caused by overheating from firing so much. The brain comes along and patches these cells up but they will never be able to fire again like they used to, sort of like skin healing up after a cut but having scar tissue. Your brain is physically altered, so no matter what you take you probably wont be able to get the effects you used to.

Its why amphetamines scare me so much.

[Rags847]

I've been taking Adderall on and off for a few months now, and since starting school in February, I take it daily. From 20-30mg a day or so. It's the only thing keeping me through school.

I've read just like everyone the conjecture and such but has there recently been any studies or new info? I'm only asking because I came across a random quote which kind of scared me and made me post this lol FWIW, I take lots of antioxidants, ALCAR, rala, the works..


From what we've discussed briefly in neuro, abuse of stimulant amphetamines results in permanent damage to structures in the brain caused by overheating from firing so much. The brain comes along and patches these cells up but they will never be able to fire again like they used to, sort of like skin healing up after a cut but having scar tissue. Your brain is physically altered, so no matter what you take you probably wont be able to get the effects you used to.

Its why amphetamines scare me so much.

This is a topic that interests me a great deal.
I'm going back to school next Fall after being in the workplace for a long time.
Piracetam has been working great for me. I love the brain-forward, mind-racing, fast-processing of the Piracetam effect. If intelligence is measured by brain processing speed, then Piracetam really does seem like an intelligence boster and enhancer to me.
But I've been thinking of trying to get a Ritilan or Adderall prescription so that I'd have access to these drugs in case of a crunch - perhaps not for daily use, but for special occassions when I really need a push.
Being a life extentionalist, an immortalist and a transhumanist, I'm of course concerned about damaging my hardware and I wonder if I should take these drugs at all.
But I must kick-ass in school next Fall.
Any good scientific info or theories on the long-term effects of ADHD drugs (or Piracetam for that matter) would be greatly appreciated.

Tarblt, have you posted this question at ADD Forums site, as well?
ADD Forums

Edited by Rags847, 08 March 2008 - 06:43 AM.

[maxwatt]

I've been taking Adderall on and off for a few months now, and since starting school in February, I take it daily. From 20-30mg a day or so. It's the only thing keeping me through school.

I've read just like everyone the conjecture and such but has there recently been any studies or new info? I'm only asking because I came across a random quote which kind of scared me and made me post this lol FWIW, I take lots of antioxidants, ALCAR, rala, the works..


From what we've discussed briefly in neuro, abuse of stimulant amphetamines results in permanent damage to structures in the brain caused by overheating from firing so much. The brain comes along and patches these cells up but they will never be able to fire again like they used to, sort of like skin healing up after a cut but having scar tissue. Your brain is physically altered, so no matter what you take you probably wont be able to get the effects you used to.

Its why amphetamines scare me so much.

This may be the study they were thinking of, or one like it, see below.

50 years ago, students were using Dexedrine and Benzedrine as study drugs. Ask your doctor what he used to get through med school. The dose makes the poison. This doesn't mean there won't be changes with chronic use of moderate amounts used for ADHD; they will be less severe than heavy recreational use causes and may not impair function, or might even improve it. Like many things, there is an inverted dose-response curve. Using more than is needed makes performance worse, not better. You're not trying to get high from this, just improve your performance a little.

This really belongs in the Nootropics forum.

1: Neuropsychopharmacology. 2006 May;31(5):1036-47.
Profile of executive and memory function associated with amphetamine and opiate dependence.Ersche KD, Clark L, London M, Robbins TW, Sahakian BJ.
Department of Psychiatry, School of Clinical Medicine, University of Cambridge, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.

Cognitive function was assessed in chronic drug users on neurocognitive measures of executive and memory function. Current amphetamine users were contrasted with current opiate users, and these two groups were compared with former users of these substances (abstinent for at least one year). Four groups of participants were recruited: amphetamine-dependent individuals, opiate-dependent individuals, former users of amphetamines, and/or opiates and healthy non-drug taking controls. Participants were administered the Tower of London (TOL) planning task and the 3D-IDED attentional set-shifting task to assess executive function, and Paired Associates Learning and Delayed Pattern Recognition Memory tasks to assess visual memory function. The three groups of substance users showed significant impairments on TOL planning, Pattern Recognition Memory and Paired Associates Learning. Current amphetamine users displayed a greater degree of impairment than current opiate users. Consistent with previous research showing that healthy men are performing better on visuo-spatial tests than women, our male controls remembered significantly more paired associates than their female counterparts. This relationship was reversed in drug users. While performance of female drug users was normal, male drug users showed significant impairment compared to both their female counterparts and male controls. There was no difference in performance between current and former drug users. Neither years of drug abuse nor years of drug abstinence were associated with performance. Chronic drug users display pronounced neuropsychological impairment in the domains of executive and memory function. Impairment persists after several years of drug abstinence and may reflect neuropathology in frontal and temporal cortices.

[tarbtl]

On the other hand, there is a definitive trade-off as well.

Since being on Adderall, my productivity has skyrocketed and I've learned more new things and gained more valuable insight through practice and repetition than I ever have before. It is only fair to assume that some of these positives changes will be lasting, and despite some neurotoxicity, there must be some kind of brain growth, as long as you're using it to do something productive like improving a skillset, instead of going out and partying or whatever.

[InquilineKea]

Meh, I'd use adderall selectively if I could get it. TOLERANCE is what's dangerous. DON'T take it for several days at a time.

Just use pill cutters to see when you start getting diminishing return with increased dosage.

[OneScrewLoose]

You have to eventually just go for something instead of living completely for the future. You can live to improve tomorrow more and more, never enjoy a day, and then die with it all in vein. I'm not saying you should necessarily take it, but consider how much it helps you now vs. the future potential damages and try to balance it out.

[dprice218]

You have to eventually just go for something instead of living completely for the future. You can live to improve tomorrow more and more, never enjoy a day, and then die with it all in vein. I'm not saying you should necessarily take it, but consider how much it helps you now vs. the future potential damages and try to balance it out.

I agree completely. I've been on stimulants mostly for the past 7 years, after a battery of cognitive tests indicated a rather marked difference in my short-term memory (27th percentile) vs. long term (99th percentile). The idea was that I was inattentive most of the time, but once I could attend, I'd remember anything.

In any event, for the first two years or so I was on ritalin and then generic adderall. They both immediately helped me, but ritalin made me feel like a zombie emotionally. Adderall, and subsequently Adderall XR, sparked a several year period of immense intellectual curiosity. That has not diminished but the I have to take vacations from Adderall because I can feel myself becoming psychologically addicted to it. I'm a graduate student and freelance writer and writing on adderall was simply necessary for me, having done it for the past several years. It's very hard for me to sit down and write unless I'm on some kind of stimulant (legal stimulant)

Anyway, the point is, Adderall is effective for the initial boost but utlimately you need to pour yourself, or let yourself be moved by, something quite independent of psychoactive substances.

I go off Adderall XR now every 3 or so months and I try to remain off for at least a month to a month and a half. It's really hard, and often times I need to take adranafil and/or wellbutrin to feel like I can access my productive and intelligent self. Again, this is all psychological, not physical.

Anyway, I hope that proved insightful for you or someone else. I'm 23 years old, hopefully at some point (when I'm no longer a student, lol) I can taper off permanently.

Edited by dprice218, 11 March 2008 - 12:32 PM.

[dprice218]

Also to get back to your original question about neurotoxicity, I'd have to say that from my experience and given what I know and have learned about long-term studies, there is a general lack of a good answer.

I'll to dig up a slide show presented by one of my undergraduate professors about this. In general I remember that a) there are hardly enough long-term, well-controlled studies involving adults with adhd and long-term amphetamine (or any other ADHD medication) use.

What I do remember is that in terms of efficacy, amphetamine (either salt or as dextro) didn't do any better than methylphenidate and/or wellbutrin. Also, long term users of ritalin reported having had their last job for a significantly less duration than non-users. I find this interesting but it has nothing to do with long-term health effects.

If I were you, I'd be skeptical of a study purporting to show that adderall or any other psychoactive substance doesn't exert a significant neurological effect. Especially given what you ought to know about receptor down regulation and the only partial recovery from it.

However, the more essential question for me is whether I'm willing to live with it. You can still be healthy with nerve damage from adderall use. I suppose it ultimately comes down to therapeutic benefit vs. long-term therapeutic benefit. It's a tough question and one that certainly no peer reviewed study can show.

[Rags847]

Especially given what you ought to know about receptor down regulation and the only partial recovery from it.

However, the more essential question for me is whether I'm willing to live with it. You can still be healthy with nerve damage from adderall use. I suppose it ultimately comes down to therapeutic benefit vs. long-term therapeutic benefit. It's a tough question and one that certainly no peer reviewed study can show.

Excellent posts, dprice.
Can you expand on "what you ought to know about receptor down regulation and the only partial recovery from it"?
I'd like to learn more about down regulation and it's mechanisms.
Is it always and necessarily a partial recovery?

[graatch]

From what we've discussed briefly in neuro, abuse of stimulant amphetamines results in permanent damage to structures in the brain caused by overheating from firing so much.

Hyperthermia has not been shown to occur at anything close to therapeutic amphetamine doses in humans. So, this mechanism is right out.

[Sirach]

My own reading and subsequent personal take on this is that speed should be approached with caution. both isomers of amphetmaine are toxic - harmful if ingested or even left on skin. Neurotoxic- in that unlike ritalin which blocks dopamine reuptake, it promotes efflux in the dopa transporter, this depletes DA tissue content (seen far more rapidly in users of methamphetamine). Take in small amounts and leave large holidays. Ritalin has to produce far greater electric signalling in the brain in order to exert its stimulatory effect which is why its 'crashes' can seem unfairly brutal as well as its tendency to induce anxiety and antisocial behaviour. Given the choice though, your brain would take the R hands down.

[Agarikon]

I was on adderall for about 2 years. I was going to a very well regarded psychiatrist who teaches at UCLA and he said there has been no proof of any long term damage using the drug. I don't know if he's biased because he prescribes the stuff, but that's what he told me.

The stuff really works, I ended up stopping because my parents wanted me to at the time, but lately I've been thinking about going back. The synergism with the right nootropics must be out of this world.

[mentatpsi]

This is the type of medical bias i've been talking about that bothers me. I am wondering why they don't make more of an effort to extensively study these therapeutic drugs... it bothers me that the best reassurance the doctors can come up with is that there isn't enough evidence to prove damaging effects... How is that any different than the type of propaganda tobacco companies used to sell. If there isn't enough evidence to demonstrate harmful effects, why not limit the amount of prescribed amphetamines to severe cases, develop more research, and personalize it to limit the intake in moderate cases of ADHD. And then they sell parents on the concept that it limits the risk of drug abuse within a child... since when is daily amphetamine intake not abuse? Just the hypocrisy alone within this society gets to me. If people are happy taking them and feel more productive i don't see the problem, but people shouldn't distinguish adderall from drugs, it's not medicine in the strictest sense of the word, just a controlled drug.

With that being said, i myself take these medications for my own ADD Inattentive type (though i do take breaks to remember my creativity and "soul"; i suppose i'm one of the few that feel zombie like when taking adderall), the problem is that there isn't an alternative... it's as though there's a monopoly on ADHD that they don't want to break. This is why i wait for the day for more extensive health care diagnostics, the day when they can pinpoint the neurological causes of any disease and can implement more personalized care. It's sad but capitalism has a progressive and regressive effect on life; once one develops a monopoly they can hinder scientific progress if it doesn't suite their desires; for this cause i'm saddened, i suppose idealistic dreams are always shattered by harsh realities -.-".