12 replies to this topic

[luv2increase]

Out of all the supplements we here at Imminst consume, which do you believe would have negative, non-lethal interactions and/or negative, lethal interactions with kratom and/or poppy pod tea?

[FunkOdyssey]

If you consider a fully functional and unmolested brain reward / pleasure system as a "supplement" to a good life, then that is incompatible with kratom/poppy pod/any other opiate use. There is little distinction to be made, if you are hitting those mu opiate receptors with anything but your body's own endorphins, you are hijacking and throwing a monkey wrench into the system that provides you the motivation and capacity to enjoy life. I advise strongly against meddling with it and I am speaking from personal experience with both substances as well as others.

[kevinr]

If you consider a fully functional and unmolested brain reward / pleasure system as a "supplement" to a good life, then that is incompatible with kratom/poppy pod/any other opiate use. There is little distinction to be made, if you are hitting those mu opiate receptors with anything but your body's own endorphins, you are hijacking and throwing a monkey wrench into the system that provides you the motivation and capacity to enjoy life. I advise strongly against meddling with it and I am speaking from personal experience with both substances as well as others.

Do you have any any studies of Kratom that show these brain molesting effects? Kratom is an mu-opioid antagonist, not an opiate, so I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page. I am very curious about this as I've heard a lot being touted in favor of kratom. Not so much the positive effects on the brain but the positive effects on other parts of the body.

Here is an quote from wikipedia:

"Kratom also contains alkaloids found in uña de gato, which are thought to play a beneficial role on the immune system and lower blood pressure, as well as epicatechin, a powerful antioxidant also found in dark chocolate and closely related to the EGCG that gives green tea its beneficial effects."

I've also read about anti carcinogenic properties as well as many other potential positives.

The real question is that is this a positive natural alternative to pain management? Not, "is this a drug that can be freely abused". Everyone knows that using something in excess typically has a negative cumulative effect.

[FunkOdyssey]

Kratom is an mu-opioid antagonist, not an opiate, so I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page.

Opioid receptors and legal highs: Salvia divinorum and Kratom.
Babu KM, McCurdy CR, Boyer EW.

Division of Medical Toxicology, Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Massachusetts Medical School, Worcester, Massachusetts 01655, USA. kavita_babu@yahoo.com

Salvia divinorum and Mitragyna speciosa ("Kratom"), two unscheduled dietary supplements whose active agents are opioid receptor agonists, have discrete psychoactive effects that have contributed to their increasing popularity. Salvia divinorum contains the highly selective kappa- opioid receptor agonist salvinorin A; this compound produces visual hallucinations and synesthesia. Mitragynine, the major alkaloid identified from Kratom, has been reported as a partial opioid agonist producing similar effects to morphine. An interesting minor alkaloid of Kratom, 7-hydroxymitragynine, has been reported to be more potent than morphine. Both Kratom alkaloids are reported to activate supraspinal mu- and delta- opioid receptors, explaining their use by chronic narcotics users to ameliorate opioid withdrawal symptoms. Despite their widespread Internet availability, use of Salvia divinorum and Kratom represents an emerging trend that escapes traditional methods of toxicologic monitoring. The purpose of this article is to familiarize toxicologists and poison control specialists with these emerging psychoactive dietary supplements.

Kratom is reinforcing due to its action on the opiate receptors and produces physical and psychological dependence, head over to kratomforum.com if you have any doubts, specifically the Overcoming Addiction subforum dedicated to both traditional opiate drug and kratom addiction & withdrawal (again there is little distinction except with regard to relative potency).

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 08 April 2008 - 02:08 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

The real question is that is this a positive natural alternative to pain management?

Quite possibly, yes. It is a lesser evil (emphasis on evil) than oxycodone or hydrocodone if you suffer from chronic pain. My advice against it is directed toward the potential recreational user.

With regard to poppy pods, that's honest to goodness opium (or at least, a natural combination of morphine and codeine, close enough) with a very long half-life. Few man-made opiate drugs will produce an addiction faster.

To answer the OP's question, I'm not aware of any negative interactions between commonly used supplements and the aforementioned substances.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 08 April 2008 - 02:26 PM.

[ajnast4r]

If you consider a fully functional and unmolested brain reward / pleasure system as a "supplement" to a good life, then that is incompatible with kratom/poppy pod/any other opiate use. There is little distinction to be made, if you are hitting those mu opiate receptors with anything but your body's own endorphins, you are hijacking and throwing a monkey wrench into the system that provides you the motivation and capacity to enjoy life. I advise strongly against meddling with it and I am speaking from personal experience with both substances as well as others.

that blew my mind

[kevinr]

Kratom is reinforcing due to its action on the opiate receptors and produces physical and psychological dependence, head over to kratomforum.com if you have any doubts, specifically the Overcoming Addiction subforum dedicated to both traditional opiate drug and kratom addiction & withdrawal (again there is little distinction except with regard to relative potency).

I understand what you are saying, I was just clarifying that 'opiates' refers specifically to the type of alkaloid (ie the alkaloid found in opium poppies), not the receptors. Opiates by definition are not the same thing as opioids. Here is a link about analgesics that clarifies (somewhat).

I guess this is my concern... There are people out there who believe that nootropics are 'brain molesting' as well. That the brain is a perfect system and any outside interference through supplements or nootropic drugs creates a destructive imbalance. But many of us on this forum believe that there are substances that can be taken through supplementation that are beneficial. The distinction of what is good and what is bad for us needs to come from scientific research and understanding of the specific substance itself, not through preconceived notions or personal belief of what makes 'logical' sense. Just as easy as cannabis was taken away from the recreational user, racetams could be stripped away from the nootropic user, as typically it's not physical evidence that gets things controlled, but 'popular belief'. To dismiss something or consider it bad because a few people have to propensity for abuse, is a slippery slope.

If a substance causes brain damage, I'd like to know the details. The fact that a substance holds recreational value, does not necessarily mean it causes brain damage. Plenty of drugs (prescription) can be abused or used recreationally. This doesn't mean they don't provide a very important or even necessary benefit for someone who is using them medically.

I think the OPs question is valid, I don't have an answer other than the study of of oxiracetam protecting against barbiturate damage, but it's not the same thing. Recreational drug use is a touchy subject for some, however it's something that an overwhelming number of people do. Alcohol seems to be pretty socially acceptable. So these type of questions are important, as recreational use is something is practiced and a part of every day life. Opinion is one thing, misinformation is another, whether it's in the form perceived negatives or positives; imho the latter being more dangerous, but the former could be bad as well.

[FunkOdyssey]

Kratom is reinforcing due to its action on the opiate receptors and produces physical and psychological dependence, head over to kratomforum.com if you have any doubts, specifically the Overcoming Addiction subforum dedicated to both traditional opiate drug and kratom addiction & withdrawal (again there is little distinction except with regard to relative potency).

I understand what you are saying, I was just clarifying that 'opiates' refers specifically to the type of alkaloid (ie the alkaloid found in opium poppies), not the receptors. Opiates by definition are not the same thing as opioids. Here is a link about analgesics that clarifies (somewhat).

I guess this is my concern... There are people out there who believe that nootropics are 'brain molesting' as well. That the brain is a perfect system and any outside interference through supplements or nootropic drugs creates a destructive imbalance. But many of us on this forum believe that there are substances that can be taken through supplementation that are beneficial. The distinction of what is good and what is bad for us needs to come from scientific research and understanding of the specific substance itself, not through preconceived notions or personal belief of what makes 'logical' sense. Just as easy as cannabis was taken away from the recreational user, racetams could be stripped away from the nootropic user, as typically it's not physical evidence that gets things controlled, but 'popular belief'. To dismiss something or consider it bad because a few people have to propensity for abuse, is a slippery slope.

If a substance causes brain damage, I'd like to know the details. The fact that a substance holds recreational value, does not necessarily mean it causes brain damage. Plenty of drugs (prescription) can be abused or used recreationally. This doesn't mean they don't provide a very important or even necessary benefit for someone who is using them medically.

I think the OPs question is valid, I don't have an answer other than the study of of oxiracetam protecting against barbiturate damage, but it's not the same thing. Recreational drug use is a touchy subject for some, however it's something that an overwhelming number of people do. Alcohol seems to be pretty socially acceptable. So these type of questions are important, as recreational use is something is practiced and a part of every day life. Opinion is one thing, misinformation is another, whether it's in the form perceived negatives or positives; imho the latter being more dangerous, but the former could be bad as well.

When I talk about "molesting" your reward system here, I'm not talking about actual brain damage and there is certainly no evidence of that. I probably should have been more clear. I'm talking about receptor desensitization and the negative influence of these drugs (drug-induced plastic changes) on the midbrain reward circuits. When you begin using a reinforcing, euphoric substance like kratom, poppy pods, oxycodone, etc, I unscientifically call that molesting your reward system. Their pain-killing properties, which cannot be divorced from the aforementioned negative properties, do provide "very important or even necessary benefits" for someone suffering from chronic pain. Again, my advice is directed specifically to the potential recreational user.

There is little/no scientific research on the effects of kratom on humans that I am aware of. Where do you turn for "the distinction of what is good and bad for us" in its absence? It would make logical sense (and since when is that frowned upon) to compare it to other substances that also agonize the mu receptors. Additionally, the experiences of others can be instructional, hence my suggestion to visit kratomforum.com. I am of the strong opinion, based on my own experiences and what I have seen, that the use of these substances can impair your ability to enjoy the everyday pleasures of life as well as the motivation to seek them out. Stated in this manner I trust you will not construe it as misinformation.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 08 April 2008 - 04:31 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

I also want to add that the OP's question is a valuable one to answer and I hope no one interpreted my going off on a reward system tangent as implying otherwise. If anyone knows of negative interactions between dietary supplements and kratom or poppy pods (I do not) please share them. The only interaction that comes to mind is with DLPA which will potentiate their effects to a degree by inhibiting enzymes that break down the body's own endorphins.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 08 April 2008 - 04:49 PM.

[luv2increase]

Thanks for the reply guys. I just didn't want anything to interact. The ones that I were afraid of were huperzine, deprenyl, lithium orotate, and centrophenoxine. I put alcohol and weed to the side for now; therefore, I am experimenting with kratom as a twice or thrice weekly high to keep things from getting too mundane. I may experiment with poppy pod tea in the future but am not quite certain it is a wise idea due to my addictive personality.

Edited by luv2increase, 09 April 2008 - 04:16 AM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Wise decision to avoid the poppy pods. I predict you will begin to notice dsythmia or mild depression creep in on the days in between your kratom doses, subtle at first and then more pronounced as you continue.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 09 April 2008 - 12:11 PM.

[Mixter]

Hm. Taking anything regularly that interferes with any opioid receptors
still seems unwise and habit forming to me. Other than aerobic exercise.
And at least poppy tea/seeds/anything may give you a (false) positive drug score IIRC.

If you want to quit that opioid stuff cold turkey, consider a low one-time dose
of Ibogaine, an habit-breaking
nicotine and opioid antagonist. Oh, or not, in case you're in the only place
where it is scheduled, the US (where I am not ).

If you want to relax and feel good use Omega3 and ashwagandha. Recent studies
suggest that omega3 increase feelings of well-being (PMID: 17267927). Without
having any opiate experience, when I take sufficient adaptogens and a 2-3 gram dose
of EPA/DHA Omega 3's, I can easily lie down, listen to music and just relax very
deeply, think of nothing and feel good. And iIf you want to feel something special in
life try personal rituals, meditation, incense, whaever... it becomes non-mundane
when you're open to perceive it as such. I find that recreation should be a natural
thing, especially for youthful immortalists.. but this is just my opinion.

[ajnast4r]

high to keep things from getting too mundane

you should really, really meditate on this... that type of thinking is a little flame in a firework factory... waiting to explode.


if you know you have an addictive personality, why would you even taunt the beast by playing with one of the most addictive substances known to man?

Edited by ajnast4r, 09 April 2008 - 01:58 PM.