137 replies to this topic

[edward]

On another subjects.

Anyone have any new ideas about what supplements to take during the fasting period of IF?

A lot of what we take is to stimulate longevity genes (hopefully), minimize damage (in part caused by ingestion and break down of food), clear out junk/prevent junk build up etc. So during the fasting period, the fasting in and of itself is not causing as much damage and may be reversing some of it so I think that the supplements taken during this time should be different than during the eat period.

I think things like Cinnulin/Cinnamon are not needed, Lipoic Acid may not be needed, Resveratrol dosage could be lowered, Multi Vit. eliminated or lowered, Oils not taken etc. etc.

Any thoughts?

[Shepard]

I'll throw this out here for anyone interested.

For a few months, I've been wondering about benefits regarding random hunger vs. set intermittent fasting. Ghrelin is an interesting hormone that has actions on NOS, hippocampus, GH, and some other things. But, ghrelin may adapt to feeding schedules. So, I've wondered whether we may be neglecting some other benefits by setting strict times. Any ideas/opinions?

[edward]

I'll throw this out here for anyone interested.

For a few months, I've been wondering about benefits regarding random hunger vs. set intermittent fasting. Ghrelin is an interesting hormone that has actions on NOS, hippocampus, GH, and some other things. But, ghrelin may adapt to feeding schedules. So, I've wondered whether we may be neglecting some other benefits by setting strict times. Any ideas/opinions?

I thought about this especially with regards to the warrior diet 20 hour fast 4 hour eat schedule. This is a very easy schedule for your body to keep track of, after a day of working, activity lessens, the sun begins to go down and the eating begins, and each day following the same thing occurs. Very quickly on this plan hunger is eliminated, probably because your body adapts to the new feeding cycle. So perhaps less hormeosis? Less of a "shock to the system" , and thus less activation of the longevity genes.

Paleo speaking, early humans never knew when their next meal was so their IF was truly random

The 24 eat 24 fast only appears like a set schedule to our higher mind. Biologically from a circadian rhythm standpoint it actually looks much more random. One day you will be eating late meals and early meals but the next day you fast for the late meal times and the early meal times, therefore you are not eating at the same time every day. Seems to me a harder "schedule" for the reptilian brain to keep track of.

I agree that perhaps truly random fasts may be even better but for me personally I like some degree of a schedule, I think the 24/24 is random enough, especially if you throw in an Eat all day once a week, which I am toying with as I am trying to do IF on low carbs (I need the extra calories of an eat all day once or twice a week), not as extremely low as previously as fasting is a pretty good way to go right into ketosis if glycogen is already low.

Just a thought, the 36 hr fast followed by 12 hour eat or every other day fasting may confuse your body even more (maybe why its harder for at least me to follow, not to mention a 36 hr fast may be a little to long in a catabolic state for my taste)

Edited by edward, 12 June 2008 - 04:11 AM.

[eldar]

I would like to suggest those of you who are doing IF to post your calories. It would be interesting to see how much it varies from one person to another.

I've rarely seen any real discussion of how much calories people consume when they are doing IF. I tend to think that the amount of calories would have a very important effect. For example if you are following the 20/4 routine, it would be easy to be doing a form of CR without knowing it, since it isn't that easy to eat e.g. 2200-2500 calories in 4 hours (of course depending on what you eat).

Personally I only started keeping detailed log of my calories after I stopped IF. That was a big mistake that I would not do, if I were to start IF now.

So...out of all the people here who do IF, none of you have any idea how many calories you eat? C'mon guys! This is a major factor. For example, those doing 24/24 schedule, do you follow the mouse model and eat twice the normal amount on feeding days(ie. around 5000 calories)? Or do you just consume the normal amount? Then for those following 20/4 schedule, are you actually doing CR by eating only 1800-2000 or so calories? These are important questions! There surely will be a big difference, e.g. between consuming 5000 and 2500 calories on feeding days, and we cannot start to compare our results if we have no idea how much each person is eating.

If everyone would just measure, or even guestimate, their calories for one day, it would help to see where most people are regarding calories and whether or not the different experiences from IF might have something to do with that. Seriously, it isn't that hard! In fact I will start.

When I was doing 24/24, I believe I was eating close to 5000 calories during the 24 hour eating period. That was divided to around 2500 during the first 8 hours, follower by 8 hours sleep, after which 2500 calories during the last 8 hours.

During the 20/4 (sometimes 18/6), I was eating 2600-3000 calories depending whether I trained that day.

Now both of these were way too much. I felt quite stuffed and generally not so good during the eating periods. My rationale was that I didn't wan't to lose any muscle (which I know realize would not have probably happened even if I ate less). I did actually manage to still lose weight with the 5000 calorie 24/24 schedule though.

Now, who's next?

[edward]

...snip...
Now, who's next?

2000-3000 per day on low carb ketogenic <--- 30 grams of carbs

2000-2200 with narrowed eating window (20-4 IF) <--- very full basically force myself to eat enough, have to push my carb intake up to 100 ish grams to eat enough

3000-6000 during eat period of (24/24 IF) <--- extreme variability depending on activity level time etc. 30-50 grams of carbs

adf (36-12) didnt count for this one only did it a few days dont like it

edit: once I settle on a schedule I don't intend to count calories, my goal is to each day: A. Eat enough protein (meat, eggs, and yes my paleo exception dairy*), B. Eat the right mix of fatty acids, C. Eat enough Vegetables D. Eat a serving of Berries F. Eat a serving of Nuts.... Calories will take care of themselves, that one of the beauties of IF, if you get your nutritional needs met in my opinion A-F then the calories are there already

*my argument for dairy in moderation to be included in a paleo diet: 1. all mammals consume dairy as infants (thus we are able to deal with it) 2. Europeans and other Ethnic groups have evolved to secrete lactase and can easily digest dairy as adults (we all have the ability its just some lose it after childhood) 3. The bioavailability of milk and whey proteins is excellent, even better in many cases than meat and eggs

Edited by edward, 12 June 2008 - 06:34 PM.

[edward]

... Anyone with any thoughts on supplementation during fasting period vs. eating periods?, come on I know you guys have thought about this...

[Shepard]

... Anyone with any thoughts on supplementation during fasting period vs. eating periods?, come on I know you guys have thought about this...

I have and I'm pretty sure I've posted about it before. I don't really see any reason to supplement during the fasting period. It's a gamble that could possibly negate the benefits you're trying to get from fasting. I certainly wouldn't do any antioxidant supplementation.

[eldar]

... Anyone with any thoughts on supplementation during fasting period vs. eating periods?, come on I know you guys have thought about this...

I have and I'm pretty sure I've posted about it before. I don't really see any reason to supplement during the fasting period. It's a gamble that could possibly negate the benefits you're trying to get from fasting. I certainly wouldn't do any antioxidant supplementation.

Care to elaborate why? I was thinking that taking vitamin c might be a good call, but I'm open to change my mind on this. Fish oil and anything else with calories is obviously not a good idea.

Edited by ceth, 12 June 2008 - 07:20 PM.

[Shepard]

Care to elaborate why?

If you're hoping to get a hormetic response, you don't negate the initial trauma that leads to eventual adaptation.

[edward]

... Anyone with any thoughts on supplementation during fasting period vs. eating periods?, come on I know you guys have thought about this...

I have and I'm pretty sure I've posted about it before. I don't really see any reason to supplement during the fasting period. It's a gamble that could possibly negate the benefits you're trying to get from fasting. I certainly wouldn't do any antioxidant supplementation.

What about phytochemicals, grape seed, milk thistle, pomegrante, turmeric, resveratrol etc etc. Contemporary hunter gatherers munch on leaves, "herbs", berries, bark and the like while hunting and foraging supplying them with a steady supply of phytochemicals and very little calories. Absorption and utilization of such chemicals on an empty stomach may have benefits. I know when I take such things while fasting it enhances the energy and clarity I get from a fasted state.

[edward]

perhaps only take supplements with the intention of boosting the hormetic response, resveratrol, turmeric, even alpha lipoic acid some think actually works by this mechanism?

[Shepard]

Back when I followed a strict IF regimen, I chose to take all my "empty stomach supplements" between meals during my eating period. I don't think there is a lot of evidence on way or the other on this. But, I know which one I think is the safer bet.

[Shepard]

perhaps only take supplements with the intention of boosting the hormetic response, resveratrol, turmeric, even alpha lipoic acid some think actually works by this mechanism?

There are multiple hormetic pathways, and I'd be lying if I claimed to have eliminated my ignorance of all of them. But, 1+1 doesn't always equal 3. Sometimes it just equals 1.

[JLL]

I've finally jumped on the IF bandwagon and so far it's been quite good. I'm doing the 24/24 thing right now, since the 4 hour eating window seems like a very short period to cram all the calories in (and also that one negative study mentioned earlier had me worried).

I'm going to start tracking calorie intake in the future, but right now I'm just eating as much as I can during the 24 hours of eating. Still, I think I'm involuntarily doing some kind of CR as well.

Anyone else still going at this? Any positive/negative experiences?

[Entropy]

Hi all,

This is my first post. I have been reading for a while, and I decided to do the IF about a month ago. Some months back I did the master cleanse (10 day fast). I felt fantastic after the first 3 days, and I lost about 13 pounds. (I am 35 Male, 5'10", was 182lbs before cleanse.) I weighed 169 after the cleanse. I gained about 5lbs back gradually and then stayed at about 173-5 for the last 4-5 months. I started the IF about 4 weeks ago and I have lost another 8lbs or so, am now at about 166. I have found the fast to be very easy to do, I do xpm to xpm (usually 8-8) 1 day eating next fasting. I do cheat on my fast days with a little low fat cream and natural sugar with my coffee, for a total of about 60cal. I usually work out every day (5-6 days a week,) doing weights on my eat days and cardio on my fast days. I ran a mile this morning in 6:40, then rowed 2000 meters on a rowing machine. Usually I just row and not run, but row for 5000 meters. I have never felt out of energy or lightheaded. I do eat quite a bit on my eat days, but I haven't counted the calories. I have a feeling they are a little lighter than I would normally intake if I ate every day. I will try to take some measurements, the only thing I have done is measure my body fat% at the gym after 3 weeks of IF. It was 17% which I think is pretty normal. I also take Resveratrol daily, with quercetin and lecithin. I take multivites, ginkgo biloba, complete EFA (borage, flax, and fish oils - 400mg ea,) and msm with food. To be honest, I haven't noticed much difference since I started except for weight loss, a little extra energy, need less sleep, but that is about it. Any comments / suggestions / questions are welcome.

Edited by Entropy, 17 August 2008 - 10:27 PM.

[lucid]

Hi all,

This is my first post. I have been reading for a while, and I decided to do the IF about a month ago. Some months back I did the master cleanse (10 day fast). I felt fantastic after the first 3 days, and I lost about 13 pounds. (I am 35 Male, 5'10", was 182lbs before cleanse.) I weighed 169 after the cleanse. I gained about 5lbs back gradually and then stayed at about 173-5 for the last 4-5 months. I started the IF about 4 weeks ago and I have lost another 8lbs or so, am now at about 166. I have found the fast to be very easy to do, I do xpm to xpm (usually 8-8) 1 day eating next fasting. I do cheat on my fast days with a little low fat cream and natural sugar with my coffee, for a total of about 60cal. I usually work out every day (5-6 days a week,) doing weights on my eat days and cardio on my fast days. I ran a mile this morning in 6:40, then rowed 2000 meters on a rowing machine. Usually I just row and not run, but row for 5000 meters. I have never felt out of energy or lightheaded. I do eat quite a bit on my eat days, but I haven't counted the calories. I have a feeling they are a little lighter than I would normally intake if I ate every day. I will try to take some measurements, the only thing I have done is measure my body fat% at the gym after 3 weeks of IF. It was 17% which I think is pretty normal. I also take Resveratrol daily, with quercetin and lecithin. I take multivites, ginkgo biloba, complete EFA (borage, flax, and fish oils - 400mg ea,) and msm with food. To be honest, I haven't noticed much difference since I started except for weight loss, a little extra energy, need less sleep, but that is about it. Any comments / suggestions / questions are welcome.

Great to hear about your experiece. I stopped doing IF about 2 months ago, I was doing 36 hour fasts twice a week which was a reflectively a little tough. During that time I lost about 10lbs and kept a detailed log of when i ran, worked out and fasted. Since, I have stopped because i really like eating and got lazy. I think I'm going to pick it back up though. I'm not sure how people feel about I.F. with resveratrol, I know the consensus is no-go with CR and resv. Did you experience any lowering of body temperature? Again good to hear about your experience.

Edited by lucid, 18 August 2008 - 02:30 AM.

[lucid]

Well figure that I would check back in.
I have been doing IF again for about a month now. I fast probably about 2.5 times a week on average and do about a 32 hour fast each day that I fast. I have had tons of energy lately and have been running about 18 miles a week (I run a little over 3 miles 6 days a week). I usually run even on fasting days, I find I normally have lots of energy by the end of the fasting day: I explain this to myself as my metabolism has shifted into fasting mode and is now processing fat reserves and amino acids from the liver. At any rate by about hour 19 of the fast I have plenty of energy and normally enjoy running. Perhaps running while fasting isnt a great idea though. My shins are also starting to get sore so I think that I'm going to have to mix up running with a little swimming. I have also been working out from 10-40 minutes each day.

Over the past month being back on IF and having a significantly increased workout load, I have not shed a pound. I'm sure that I have put on some more muscle but we will see what I'm looking like in a couple months.

Getting started again on IF was pretty tough, but now fasts are no big deal. As I may have said before, Its actually nice having that extra couple hours a day that I normally spend eating to do something else. I will be getting my blood work done in a month or two so hopefully I will see some improvement in my bio-markers.

As for getting cold, I just make sure to bundle up under like 3 blankets at night and I'm good to go on fast days. I suppose that the most surprising development is that I haven't lost any weight this go round, but I suppose that that is good news. I haven't actually been eating that much more on off days. I probably eat like 20% more than I normally would, but I try to make it nutritious.

I take my Resv+ETOH+Miralax elixir ussually one of the days in between fasts. I take a glass of fiber the night starting the fast to shoot all the food left in me through (If I don't it has a tendency to stay put). I take my potassium, magnesium, fish oil, and vit D supplement every day whether I am fasting or not. I eat about 140 calories of pure cocoa on fasting days compared to the 280 calories of it on normal days (I don't have cocoa powder anymore since trader joes only carries the bars, the difference is the bars have cocoa butter in there which has lots of calories). I also drink white tea everyday. And I will usually have a little v8 when I fast too. I figure between the fish oil, cocoa and v8 I probably get around 250 calories on my IF days which is kind of a lot.

Glad to be back in business.

Edited by lucid, 17 September 2008 - 04:07 AM.

[JLL]

I tried the 32 hour fast as well but found it quite difficult. 24/24 is much easier for me.

[edDe]

As for getting cold, I just make sure to bundle up under like 3 blankets at night and I'm good to go on fast days. I suppose that the most surprising development is that I haven't lost any weight this go round, but I suppose that that is good news. I haven't actually been eating that much more on off days. I probably eat like 20% more than I normally would, but I try to make it nutritious.

I don't have the references handy, but I know that in CR body temperature decreases. But, in
experiments on rodents, if the room temperature is increased to off-set the drop in body temperature,
it cancels out any increased life span due to the CR. The warmed up CR rodents live about as long as the ad-lib
controls.

I don't know if this is applicable to IF - but if your are doing CR, I don't think that it is a good idea to 'bundle up' or
turn up the heating. You just have to get used to feeling a little chilly.

[JLL]

Huh, I haven't heard anything like that. Interesting, though. References would be appreciated.

Wouldn't that mean you could just turn the temperature down so you'd be chilly all the time and live longer?

[forever freedom]

As for getting cold, I just make sure to bundle up under like 3 blankets at night and I'm good to go on fast days. I suppose that the most surprising development is that I haven't lost any weight this go round, but I suppose that that is good news. I haven't actually been eating that much more on off days. I probably eat like 20% more than I normally would, but I try to make it nutritious.

I don't have the references handy, but I know that in CR body temperature decreases. But, in
experiments on rodents, if the room temperature is increased to off-set the drop in body temperature,
it cancels out any increased life span due to the CR. The warmed up CR rodents live about as long as the ad-lib
controls.

I don't know if this is applicable to IF - but if your are doing CR, I don't think that it is a good idea to 'bundle up' or
turn up the heating. You just have to get used to feeling a little chilly.

Huh, I haven't heard anything like that. Interesting, though. References would be appreciated.

Wouldn't that mean you could just turn the temperature down so you'd be chilly all the time and live longer?

Yes, this is weird. Sounds like a myth, this room temperature thing. Unless some evidence/reference is shown..

[Michael]

As for getting cold, I just make sure to bundle up under like 3 blankets at night and I'm good to go on fast days. I suppose that the most surprising development is that I haven't lost any weight this go round, but I suppose that that is good news.

No, it's bad news: it shows that you're not actually reducing your net Calorie intake. As previously discussed in some detail, the recent resveratrol ± EOD study clearly showed that intermittent fasting without concomitant CR does not slow aging or extend lifespan. This is as one would have predicted from previous research, which had shown that Calories -- not meal spacing -- determined the anti-aging effects of CR (1-3). (1) does seem to suggest a teensy-tiny benefit to eating the same number of Calories once a day vs 6 times (see Figure 3), but only in a single outlier, which could just be statistical noise.

I don't have the references handy, but I know that in CR body temperature decreases. But, in
experiments on rodents, if the room temperature is increased to off-set the drop in body temperature,
it cancels out any increased life span due to the CR. The warmed up CR rodents live about as long as the ad-lib
controls.

I don't know if this is applicable to IF - but if your are doing CR, I don't think that it is a good idea to 'bundle up' or
turn up the heating. You just have to get used to feeling a little chilly.

Huh, I haven't heard anything like that. Interesting, though. References would be appreciated.

edDe has both the evidence and the practical implications correct. See this post.

Wouldn't that mean you could just turn the temperature down so you'd be chilly all the time and live longer?

No, because (a) just turning down the temperature won't alter your core body temp much on an AL diet (you'll largely just increase thermogenesis), and (b) this only shows that nixing lower body temp limits the benefits of CR -- not that the CR effect is caused by the reduced body temp.

References
1. Nelson W, Halberg F. Meal-timing, circadian rhythms and life span ofmice. J Nutr. 1986 Nov;116(11):2244-53. PMID: 3794831; UI: 87085847

2. Nelson W. Food restriction, circadian disorder and longevity of rats and mice. J Nutr. 1988 Mar;118(3):286-9. Review. PMID: 3280755; UI: 88171757

3. Masoro EJ, Shimokawa I, Higami Y, McMahan CA, Yu BP. Temporal pattern of food intake not a factor in the retardation of aging processes by dietary restriction. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1995
Jan;50A(1):B48-53. PMID: 7814779; UI: 95114284

Edited by Michael, 19 September 2008 - 12:11 PM.

[Mind]

Just another person's blog/experience with IF

[sthira]

So, if you're practicing CR or IF with CR, you get skinny and cold, then bundle up to stay warm, then you're losing the benefits of CR?

[Esoparagon]

I'm doing a 30 day intermittent fasting trial to see what happens!

My calculations are that I lose around 1kg a week. I'll be doing walking for 60 minutes everyday if I can with a minimum of 3 times a week.

I'm going to document it on youtube and via my blog at aeoniverse.com

If all goes well I'll continue for 4 months or until such time as I lose enough weight.

[Beerbelly]

About a year ago I was fasting every other day. I have started again but this time I am fasting only 24 hours x 2 per week. I break the fast with a piece of fruit and gently ease into food the following day. I do have a problem thought (and now I remember why I stopped)!!

For some reason - on the days when I fast - I have problems getting to sleep that night. If/when I do get to sleep I often wake up!! I don't know why this is happening or what is causing it.

I would be very glad if someone might know why this might be!!

[Matt]

So, if you're practicing CR or IF with CR, you get skinny and cold, then bundle up to stay warm, then you're losing the benefits of CR?

Yes... Reason why I try stay on the cool side, but avoiding shivering. I usually always wear t shirts and don't try stay warm. Staying cold is probably best. You do get used to it though and adjust.

[Sillewater]

About a year ago I was fasting every other day. I have started again but this time I am fasting only 24 hours x 2 per week. I break the fast with a piece of fruit and gently ease into food the following day. I do have a problem thought (and now I remember why I stopped)!!

For some reason - on the days when I fast - I have problems getting to sleep that night. If/when I do get to sleep I often wake up!! I don't know why this is happening or what is causing it.

I would be very glad if someone might know why this might be!!

It may be because your in ketosis. Since your brain is being fed ketones you may not be used to it and can't get to sleep. Try eating a small amount of fruit or starchy vegetable. It just takes time to adapt to, I fall asleep pretty easy on fasting days, been doing IF for 1 year now.

Also this article and video may be of interest:
How to beat jet lag: Don't eat
Clocks & Rhythms with Clifford Saper interviewed by Jan Witkowski

Basically, we've evolved to not sleep when hungry because we should be foraging instead to find food.

Edit: add links

Edited by Sillewater, 04 August 2009 - 12:00 AM.

[VidX]

So IF from time to time with some cardio (to induce lack of oxygen) but without CR isn't beneficial afterall?

[ginkeq]

I looked at this study which was done on humans and it says BDNF is reduced in alternate day caloric restriction:
http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1859864

Shouldn't it be increasing BDNF? Not sure how to interpret that study (it also says BDNF is a sign of inflammation). At least that is what I saw in the studies done on rodents etc.