137 replies to this topic

[xEva]

Thanks for the link. But I believe you are conflating CMA (Chaperone mediated Autophagy) with Autophagy in general. CMA is just a very small subset of Autophagy. I think it probable that CMA is just increased concurrent with Ketosis while general autophagy drops significantly. Quoting from page 11 of the study report: "The effects of ketone bodies have been extensively studied on tissues that utilize them for energy, such as skeletal muscle and brain. The use of ketone bodies as an energy source prevents the catabolism of essential proteins and preserves amino acid pools within the cell during time of nutritional stress (4 citations are given including, http://diabetes.diab...pe2=tf_ipsecsha ).

You're the one who's mistaken:

1.http://en.wikipedia....agy_(cellular):

During nutrient starvation, increased levels of autophagy lead to the breakdown of non-vital components and the release of nutrients, ensuring that vital processes can continue.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis:

During prolonged fasting or starvation, acetyl-CoA in the liver is used to produce ketone bodies instead, leading to a state of ketosis.

You cannot separate starvation from ketosis. It's one and the same process.

Edited by xEva, 29 November 2010 - 09:43 PM.

[JohnD60]

conflate what you want, it doesn't matter to me.

[Donnie]

Justify

You must have reached that conclusion from some sort of literature. Can't you point towards that literature?

Edit (found the study):
Not exactly what I said but here's the study:

Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2008 Feb 15;366(3):786-92. Epub 2007 Dec 17.


In vivo effect of an antilipolytic drug (3,5'-dimethylpyrazole) on autophagic proteolysis and autophagy-related gene expression in rat liver.
Donati A, Ventruti A, Cavallini G, Masini M, Vittorini S, Chantret I, Codogno P, Bergamini E.

Sillewater, could you elaborate on this: Glucose treatment rescued the effects caused by DMP on glucose and insulin plasma levels and negatively affected the rate of autophagic proteolysis

Do we want the rate of autophagic proteolysis to decrease? Otherwise I fail to see where it says ketones will inhibit autophagy. Rather, it states that glucose didn't surpress the effect on the LC3 gene, not that dimethylpyrazole works solely with glucose.

Edited by Donnie, 17 December 2010 - 01:48 PM.

[sthira]

xEva: What do you make of the idea expressed in this thread that the effects of fasting or CR may be diminished if you seek to warm your skinny body while cold? For example, by using extra blankets at night or by wearing added clothing layers?

[Sith]

What does everyone think of the 16/8 IF? I feel like it's good but I don't feel any difference ever... 

[aza]

I dont think think the benefits of IF are overtly felt, the main thing i notice is that food is much more delicious. :p

[tunt01]

What does everyone think of the 16/8 IF? I feel like it's good but I don't feel any difference ever...

I don't seem to produce adequate ketones on it. I think I need to get my carbs down still.

Those of you doing IF what kind of blood diurnal ketones are you seeing?

[lucid]

When I did a ketogenic diet for 5 months (zero carb) and was also doing IF. It took 3 days still to get into ketosis.

 

I would hardly have any ketones if i had 50g of carbs a day. Highly doubt you will get any ketones from short 16/8 IF. You would have to be <50g carb per day. Ketosis in IF is only relavant for much longer fasts.

 

The only way to short circuit that long fast would be to drain the liver of glycogen stores by going on a long run (maybe 5 miles) ~3-4 hours after starting the fast. This could possibly allow you to go ketogenic on a 16/8 regimen with significant carb intake.

[Sith]

Should you fast everyday on the 16/8 diet? Could your body actually get used to the effects of fasting and negate the hormone changes? 

[aza]

maybe, although i would think that autophagy wouldnt stop. What i generally do is mix it up, 3 meals once a week. 16/8 on gym days and a 24 hour fast on my break day

[sthira]

And fasting gets easier as you do it more often. I just eat one meal a day now and I'm rarely hungry or weak after 24 to 30 hours without food. The body adjusts quite nicely to even daily fasting without the strict no carb ketogenic aspect. To get deeper into ketosis I just do longer fasts -- 3 to 10 days once per month, and each prolonged water only fast gets a little easier. My only problem is weight loss -- which I really don't want

[Sith]

maybe, although i would think that autophagy wouldnt stop. What i generally do is mix it up, 3 meals once a week. 16/8 on gym days and a 24 hour fast on my break day

 

Oh wow! So you do a whole day of fasting? Do you make up for the lost calories? Or is this a form of calorie restriction as well. Enlighten me please. 

 

And fasting gets easier as you do it more often. I just eat one meal a day now and I'm rarely hungry or weak after 24 to 30 hours without food. The body adjusts quite nicely to even daily fasting without the strict no carb ketogenic aspect. To get deeper into ketosis I just do longer fasts -- 3 to 10 days once per month, and each prolonged water only fast gets a little easier. My only problem is weight loss -- which I really don't want

 

That is an extreme form of fasting if I'm honest. I certainly do rate you for that, well done! I would like to start a water only fast a few days a month. Do you feel any benefits? Is muscle mass or fat lost?

 

I agree, 16/8 doesn't feel like fasting anymore. I'm decreasing the eating window to around 5 hours. 

[sthira]

And fasting gets easier as you do it more often. I just eat one meal a day now and I'm rarely hungry or weak after 24 to 30 hours without food. The body adjusts quite nicely to even daily fasting without the strict no carb ketogenic aspect. To get deeper into ketosis I just do longer fasts -- 3 to 10 days once per month, and each prolonged water only fast gets a little easier. My only problem is weight loss -- which I really don't want

That is an extreme form of fasting if I'm honest. I certainly do rate you for that, well done! I would like to start a water only fast a few days a month. Do you feel any benefits? Is muscle mass or fat lost?

I agree, 16/8 doesn't feel like fasting anymore. I'm decreasing the eating window to around 5 hours.

"Extreme" is a funny word, isn't it? Most mammals are wandering around the leafy earth in various stages of "hunger" -- just about all are adapted to "Am I gonna eat you or are you gonna eat me?" Nature is sorta extreme -- living creatures are struggling to survive, to make a living in the wild, court, copulate, reproduce, raise hungry mouths . And for us we existed in hungry little tribes right at the edges of our species's near-extinction for millions of years. We evolved right out of our hunger and so it's a nice discovery how easily we adjust to depletion.

If anything, I'd say our modern access to bad nutrition 24/7 around the globe is extreme.

Give longer fasts a go -- nothing much to lose if you're conscious. I'm very very thin, living in a culture plagued by an obesity epidemic, but muscle loss from fasting? In my N=1 I've found that fasting increases "lean gains" more than my muscles wasting away, but you may be different.

[Sith]

 

 

And fasting gets easier as you do it more often. I just eat one meal a day now and I'm rarely hungry or weak after 24 to 30 hours without food. The body adjusts quite nicely to even daily fasting without the strict no carb ketogenic aspect. To get deeper into ketosis I just do longer fasts -- 3 to 10 days once per month, and each prolonged water only fast gets a little easier. My only problem is weight loss -- which I really don't want

That is an extreme form of fasting if I'm honest. I certainly do rate you for that, well done! I would like to start a water only fast a few days a month. Do you feel any benefits? Is muscle mass or fat lost?

I agree, 16/8 doesn't feel like fasting anymore. I'm decreasing the eating window to around 5 hours.

"Extreme" is a funny word, isn't it? Most mammals are wandering around the leafy earth in various stages of "hunger" -- just about all are adapted to "Am I gonna eat you or are you gonna eat me?" Nature is sorta extreme -- living creatures are struggling to survive, to make a living in the wild, court, copulate, reproduce, raise hungry mouths . And for us we existed in hungry little tribes right at the edges of our species's near-extinction for millions of years. We evolved right out of our hunger and so it's a nice discovery how easily we adjust to depletion.

If anything, I'd say our modern access to bad nutrition 24/7 around the globe is extreme.

Give longer fasts a go -- nothing much to lose if you're conscious. I'm very very thin, living in a culture plagued by an obesity epidemic, but muscle loss from fasting? In my N=1 I've found that fasting increases "lean gains" more than my muscles wasting away, but you may be different.

 

 

I must admit, I still hold on to my analysis of "extreme" but I do admire your poetic explanation. It was quite nice reading it  . I was thinking perhaps a 4 day water-only fast one a month. 

 

What do you mean it increases "lean gains"? Do you weight train during the fasting period? Or is it just a noticeable effect from fat loss?

 

By the way, have you got any sites where I could do further reading into this? I see a lot on calorie restriction and intermittent fasting but not prolonged fasting for days.

[sthira]

Four day water only fasts once monthly will be a fun challenge for you. I started fasting a little more humbly, though, working my way up to longer fasts as they feel right.

For inspiration, I like Dr. Mattson's take on fasting for brain health here:



And Dr. Goldhamer at the True North fasting clinic in Santa Rosa, California, is very entertaining and insightful:



Dr. Valter Longo (USC) has been studying fasting for decades and has important insights into some biomarkers that may be affected to promote longevity:



This one in italiano:

https://youtu.be/EN9aXwvJ78A

Lauren Lockman is good:

https://youtu.be/6Krab2ij8YY

The best sites for prolonged water only fasting are probably in Russian.

[sthira]

What do you mean it increases "lean gains"? Do you weight train during the fasting period? Or is it just a noticeable effect from fat loss?

I don't do much of anything after about day two or three of a water only fast. Days one and two are tolerable, then I lose hunger, blood pressure and glucose drops, ketosis is king.

I fast to heal, rest, and recover -- do nothing -- sleep, drink water, relax, read, meditate, soak in some sunshine. I don't lift weights or work out at all when prolonged fasting -- although sometimes I've energy that's off the chain for exercise. But me, I'd rather use the monthly fast to attempt longevity rejuvenation. Others are different, and have different health fitness goals.

During a ten day fast my body is losing water weight. Upon refeeding that water weight returns. The body is smarter than we imagine, and I doubt we impact muscle mass during a short ten day denial. This may be controversial, muscle mass, I don't know, but my body after recovering from a fast seems much stronger and more efficient. YM definitely may V.

[Sith]

Four day water only fasts once monthly will be a fun challenge for you. I started fasting a little more humbly, though, working my way up to longer fasts as they feel right.

For inspiration, I like Dr. Mattson's take on fasting for brain health here:



And Dr. Goldhamer at the True North fasting clinic in Santa Rosa, California, is very entertaining and insightful:



Dr. Valter Longo (USC) has been studying fasting for decades and has important insights into some biomarkers that may be affected to promote longevity:



This one in italiano:

https://youtu.be/EN9aXwvJ78A

Lauren Lockman is good:

https://youtu.be/6Krab2ij8YY

The best sites for prolonged water only fasting are probably in Russian.

 

 

 

What do you mean it increases "lean gains"? Do you weight train during the fasting period? Or is it just a noticeable effect from fat loss?

I don't do much of anything after about day two or three of a water only fast. Days one and two are tolerable, then I lose hunger, blood pressure and glucose drops, ketosis is king.

I fast to heal, rest, and recover -- do nothing -- sleep, drink water, relax, read, meditate, soak in some sunshine. I don't lift weights or work out at all when prolonged fasting -- although sometimes I've energy that's off the chain for exercise. But me, I'd rather use the monthly fast to attempt longevity rejuvenation. Others are different, and have different health fitness goals.

During a ten day fast my body is losing water weight. Upon refeeding that water weight returns. The body is smarter than we imagine, and I doubt we impact muscle mass during a short ten day denial. This may be controversial, muscle mass, I don't know, but my body after recovering from a fast seems much stronger and more efficient. YM definitely may V.

 

 

 

Thank you for all this information, will certainly take a good look at it.

 

I do like the sounds of that. Those few days of fasting do seem very enjoyable. Random question, are you a yogi? Do you fast for the yogic aspect as well?

 

Thanks again! 

[aza]

for a 24 hour fast i eat dinner  then  i dont eat again until dinner the next day. I looked into fasting and muscle loss a while ago, from what i recall muscle loss starts kicking in after 24 hours and it really starts to kick in after 36-48 hours. Generally it wouldn't be that noticeable. But i generally keep my fasts to 24 hours because of that, although i was thinking of having a 36 hour fast once a month.

Edited by aza, 04 June 2016 - 04:21 AM.