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Sirtuins come under fire


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#1 VP.

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 03:42 AM


Ouroburos writes about a new article in Nature Biotechnology that sheds doubt about the resveratrol-sirtiun story as told by Dr. Sinclair. If anyone has access to the original Nature article please pass on the highlights. Excerpt:

… But there is another sirtuin narrative that has received much less attention. To begin with, there is no published evidence that resveratrol or sirtuin activators can extend lifespan in normal mammals. Calorie restriction does extend lifespan in many organisms (though not all), but its effects in mammals may have little to do with the sirtuins: other pathways may be more important. And resveratrol may not be a general sirtuin activator in the first place—the compound’s beneficial effects may arise from completely different mechanisms. Finally, credible research in yeast suggests that sirtuins may actually function to limit chronological lifespan, not increase it.


Chris Patil (ouroboros) had this comment:

The piece summarizes, thoroughly and fairly, the arguments for and against the competing narratives regarding sirtuins’ importance; in the process, it gives a nice historical overview of the evolution of the sirtuin field since its foundations in yeast.

By pointing out the importance of narrative, Garber reminds us that sometimes we tend to preferentially remember facts that improve the consistency of a story, and conversely, to preferentially forget completely valid observations that add rough edges and sharp corners to a favored view. This field is rife with examples. Here, we are reminded of some of the prima facie weaknesses of some of founding studies, including ones that led to such fundamental beliefs as the idea that resveratrol activates sirtuins. We’re also pointed toward the work of dissenting scholars who find that sirtuin mutations and resveratrol have minimal, if any, effect on lifespan — raising the possibility that any such effects observed in other studies are sensitively dependent on the choice of culture conditions and the genetic backgrounds of the animals used.

On the balance, the piece doesn’t argue that sirtuins aren’t involved in aging or that they’re not worth further study — but after reading it, I found myself realizing that some of the parts of the big machine don’t fit together as smoothly as I thought they had. Especially when a theory is widely accepted — and widely used as an inspiration for future studies — it’s crucial to be regularly reminded of what we know for sure, why we think we know it, and (most importantly) of the magnitude of what we don’t yet know.


http://ouroboros.wor...ome-under-fire/

#2 niner

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 05:01 AM

Ouroboros never fails to impress me. That's a good point about the power of narrative. It's a substitute for thinking, and a very powerful one at that. Shhh! Don't tell GSK!

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#3 maxwatt

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 01:19 PM

Ouroboros never fails to impress me. That's a good point about the power of narrative. It's a substitute for thinking, and a very powerful one at that. Shhh! Don't tell GSK!


I think Glaxo are pretty sure they can get a marketable drug out of the deal.

This does seem to be the week for doubting sirtuins: THIS at the Methuselah Foundation.

#4 eternaltraveler

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 04:39 PM

Ouroboros never fails to impress me. That's a good point about the power of narrative. It's a substitute for thinking, and a very powerful one at that. Shhh! Don't tell GSK!


I think Glaxo are pretty sure they can get a marketable drug out of the deal.

This does seem to be the week for doubting sirtuins: THIS at the Methuselah Foundation.


Even if a substance is completely proven to do what it is supposed to do in model organisms (which resveratrol is not conclusively proven to do in animal studies). The smart money is always on this beneficial effect not carrying over to humans. By far, most drugs pharmaceutical companies invest big money in do not pan out.

And yes, resveratrol is found in things humans typically ingest. But thats got nothing at all to do with how safe it is in quantities thousands of times higher than would ever be found in a bottle of wine.

The train of thought of resveratrol has gone something like this. People who drink red wine seem to be healthier, red wine has resveratrol, therefore resveratrol helps you live longer (oh yah, forget that it doesn't seem to do anything when given in quantities similar to those found in red wine which thereby almost precludes it as the substance in wine which makes you live longer....). I think we can all see the problem here.

Mind you. I am not at all suggesting that resveratrol will not do humans good or be harmful. I am suggesting that we don't know this because the data does not exist (and the kind of anecdotal accounts found here are all but completely useless).

Edited by elrond, 12 June 2008 - 04:39 PM.


#5 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 05:21 PM

Ouroboros never fails to impress me. That's a good point about the power of narrative. It's a substitute for thinking, and a very powerful one at that. Shhh! Don't tell GSK!


I think Glaxo are pretty sure they can get a marketable drug out of the deal.

This does seem to be the week for doubting sirtuins: THIS at the Methuselah Foundation.


Even if a substance is completely proven to do what it is supposed to do in model organisms (which resveratrol is not conclusively proven to do in animal studies). The smart money is always on this beneficial effect not carrying over to humans. By far, most drugs pharmaceutical companies invest big money in do not pan out.

And yes, resveratrol is found in things humans typically ingest. But thats got nothing at all to do with how safe it is in quantities thousands of times higher than would ever be found in a bottle of wine.

The train of thought of resveratrol has gone something like this. People who drink red wine seem to be healthier, red wine has resveratrol, therefore resveratrol helps you live longer (oh yah, forget that it doesn't seem to do anything when given in quantities similar to those found in red wine which thereby almost precludes it as the substance in wine which makes you live longer....). I think we can all see the problem here.

Mind you. I am not at all suggesting that resveratrol will not do humans good or be harmful. I am suggesting that we don't know this because the data does not exist (and the kind of anecdotal accounts found here are all but completely useless).


I don't think it's the wine thing at all. The big thing around here (and I presume around the world,) that got many taking t-res is when it became known that Sinclair, his family and co-workers were taking it. If I recall correctly, Sincalir himself was taking 500 mg a day.

#6 Mind

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 05:53 PM

I see this happen every year with the latest supplement test results. It was the same way with the research team that found dramatic cognitive effects when mice were given blueberry extracts. It was reported that the researchers started eating blueberries every day. When Sinclair observed the dramatic effect resv had on mice, he started taking it himself.

Many people are willing to experiment with supplements, even when the data is incomplete.

#7 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:30 PM

I see this happen every year with the latest supplement test results. It was the same way with the research team that found dramatic cognitive effects when mice were given blueberry extracts. It was reported that the researchers started eating blueberries every day. When Sinclair observed the dramatic effect resv had on mice, he started taking it himself.

Many people are willing to experiment with supplements, even when the data is incomplete.


Are you implying that 500 mg/day t-res is as safe as eating blueberries? :~

#8 tintinet

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:54 PM

I see this happen every year with the latest supplement test results. It was the same way with the research team that found dramatic cognitive effects when mice were given blueberry extracts. It was reported that the researchers started eating blueberries every day. When Sinclair observed the dramatic effect resv had on mice, he started taking it himself.

Many people are willing to experiment with supplements, even when the data is incomplete.


Are you implying that 500 mg/day t-res is as safe as eating blueberries? :)


Nah. He's implying Sinclair is a mouse! :~

#9 Shepard

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:58 PM

And did I miss the part where Sinclair stunned everyone with his brilliance? I have been unimpressed with the interviews I've seen with him. Unless he's dumbing everything down to make his billions.

#10 maxwatt

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 08:34 PM

And did I miss the part where Sinclair stunned everyone with his brilliance? I have been unimpressed with the interviews I've seen with him. Unless he's dumbing everything down to make his billions.


Ahem.

No one ever lost money under-estimating the intelligence of the American public.

-- P.T. Barnum

Even though Sinclair was reported to be taking resveratrol, others in the lab were not.

I think it was the athletic mouse studies, showing more miotochondria in muscle tissue, that did it for most people. No deleterious effects noted, some results that would be consistent with improved health if not life-extension, and a dose that was do-able.

#11 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 08:40 PM

And did I miss the part where Sinclair stunned everyone with his brilliance? I have been unimpressed with the interviews I've seen with him. Unless he's dumbing everything down to make his billions.


Ahem.

No one ever lost money under-estimating the intelligence of the American public.

-- P.T. Barnum

Even though Sinclair was reported to be taking resveratrol, others in the lab were not.

I think it was the athletic mouse studies, showing more miotochondria in muscle tissue, that did it for most people. No deleterious effects noted, some results that would be consistent with improved health if not life-extension, and a dose that was do-able.



He did mention his family and in-laws were taking t-res.

#12 maxwatt

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 09:29 PM

And did I miss the part where Sinclair stunned everyone with his brilliance? I have been unimpressed with the interviews I've seen with him. Unless he's dumbing everything down to make his billions.


Ahem.

No one ever lost money under-estimating the intelligence of the American public.

-- P.T. Barnum

Even though Sinclair was reported to be taking resveratrol, others in the lab were not.

I think it was the athletic mouse studies, showing more miotochondria in muscle tissue, that did it for most people. No deleterious effects noted, some results that would be consistent with improved health if not life-extension, and a dose that was do-able.



He did mention his family and in-laws were taking t-res.


"My son David, the biologist, he said these resveratrol pills are good for me so I took one. I feel so much better."

#13 Shepard

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 09:30 PM

-- P.T. Barnum


Don't think Barnum said that, but the point is still valid. You couldn't get people to go for a jog if you showed it turned them into Clark Kent, but promise a pill that lets them stay lazy...

#14 sUper GeNius

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 11:56 PM

And did I miss the part where Sinclair stunned everyone with his brilliance? I have been unimpressed with the interviews I've seen with him. Unless he's dumbing everything down to make his billions.


Ahem.

No one ever lost money under-estimating the intelligence of the American public.

-- P.T. Barnum


I think it was the athletic mouse studies, showing more miotochondria in muscle tissue, that did it for most people. No deleterious effects noted, some results that would be consistent with improved health if not life-extension, and a dose that was do-able.


Even though Sinclair was reported to be taking resveratrol, others in the lab were not.


He did mention his family and in-laws were taking t-res.




"My son David, the biologist, he said these resveratrol pills are good for me so I took one. I feel so much better."



No, I was thinking that Sinclair felt confident enough to recommend the substance to close loved ones. It's one thing to experiment on ones self, quite another to tell others, others that have no expertise and are not capable of making a well-informed decision.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 12 June 2008 - 11:59 PM.


#15 maxwatt

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 01:29 AM

-- P.T. Barnum


Don't think Barnum said that, but the point is still valid. You couldn't get people to go for a jog if you showed it turned them into Clark Kent, but promise a pill that lets them stay lazy...


You're right. It was taste, not intelligence, Barnum said couldn't be underestimated. Bush's election to a second term is a case in point for both.

Edited by maxwatt, 13 June 2008 - 10:21 AM.


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#16 rhc124

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 03:58 AM

I research things for a living and I have been very impressed with this forum. Despite other areas of ImmInst, this forum has stayed very professional. The commentary made by people that are much more knowlegable than I, and within the biotech industry, has been very informative. We all know that resveratrol research is in is eary stages yet the research so far is significant compared to many other supplements.

A debate of resvearatol's actions and effectiveness is very healthly. Yet I have recently seen many people from other ImmInst forums join our group that seem to have other agendas. Mind's comparison of the one study of blueberry extract is laughable compared to the millions of dollars that have gone into resveratrol research. Maybe next we are going to see a LEF advertisment on our cherished forum (because they are on our side). Yes, it is unclear how resveratrol works and we do not know if it really extends the life of higher mammals but taking the supplement has made a significant contribution to my life. I have been able to drop zoloft and I have more energy than I have in years.

As many of you know, I have been very forthright about my perceived side effects and I believe this is very important in the discovery process, despite some using this imformation for their own sales agenda. All of these side effects have passed over time execpt for the rash on my hands, which is very mild and I have had severe allergies most of my adult life( actually it only pops up when I work outside and it is really very mild).

All I can say is I invest for a living and I believe that we are on the right track with resveratrol. Do I think it is the life extension solution, No. But I do think it is the first step outside of CR, yes. Only time will tell but I am willing to take the bet right now. Thanks




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