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What to look for when buying a sunscreen


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#1 Eva Victoria

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 07:51 PM


What is important when buying sunscreen from the formulator's point of view?

The checklist:

1. High UVA protection.

2. Photostable sunscreen!

3. Formulation that will stay on the surface of the skin rather than sink in.

4. And a formulation that is pleasant to use.

1.UV Rays

It has been stated that UVA protection is equally important as UVB protection.


Let me explain a bit about UV rays. UV rays can be grouped into 3 subcategories:

UVC (up to 290nm) filtered out by the Ozon-layer. Highly cancerous.

UVB (290-320nm) which are high energy rays. Only 5% of all rays reaching the surface of the Earth are UVB rays.

UVA (320-400nm) which are low energy rays. 95% of all rays reaching the surface of the Earth are UVA rays. They are almost constant all year around. They weaken our immunsystem.

UVA rays can be grouped into to subcategories:

UVA2 (320-360 nm) or short UVA.

UVA1(360-400nm) or long UVA.

What do these rays do to our skin?

UVB makes our skin burn (B for burning), makes our body produce melanin (our natural protection against UVB-rays). It has an equivalent of SPF4 in a white person which is a very low protection. It will still allow the skin to let 25% of UVB rays pass through our "natural" protection.

Since they are short waves they do not penetrate deep in the skin. It reaches mostly our Epidermis.

They are dangerous because they can increase the chances to have skin cancer especially if one burns before the age of 18: AC and SCC, BCC.

UVA rays are even more dangerous than UVB. (A for Aging)

It is very recent that it has been generally acknowledged that UVA rays are dangerous.

It has been widely believed that UVA rays were harmless and there was no need to protect the skin against them.

We now know better than that.

For years it has been only necessary to produce sunscreens that protected against UVB rays. Hence the SPF marking on the sunscreen-bottle will refer to its protection against UVB rays.

(The higher the number the better the protection).

What is not universally agreed (yet) is how to define UVA protection of a sunscreen?
How do I know as a costumer that the sunscreen actually protects against UVA?
There is no law that will determine that a sunscreen should protect against UVA rays (except in Japan and in Australia, though not the whole UVA range).

What we know today about UVA rays is that they penetrate much deeper in the skin (Dermis). They are the main cause of a wrinkled, photo-aged appearance.

They destroy our precious collagen and elastin fibbers which give our skin its support and suppleness.
We also know that while UVB rays cause direct damage to our DNA, UVA causes indirect damage to our DNA. Which is believed today to be the main cause of Malignant Melanoma, the deadliest from of skin cancers.

So when we buy a sunscreen it is equally important that it has a high protection against both UVA and UVB rays.

Ideally a sunscreen should have the same protection value against UVA as against UVB.

To be able to achieve this a formulator has to have good UVA sunscreening agents (that are only available in the EU, partially in AU and JP). OR: formulating a bad sunscreen that will have high UVA protection because the agents low reflective index in the UVB-zone. (Like ZnO alone).

It is crucial to use good UVA filters that also filter in the UVA1 area (360-400nm).

Let me say some words about regulations of sunscreens in the World:

EU: it is only a recommendation: Sunscreens should provide protection both in the UVB and UVA field. The value of the UVA protection of a sunscreen should be at least 1/3 of the SPF (UVB protection). The critical wavelength of the UVA protection should be min.370nm.
AU: Sunscreens must protect in the UVA range of 320-360 with a maximum transmission of 10%.

US: Sunscreens can be formulated as Broadband protection. No specifications are given about neither what Broadband protection is nor how much of the SPF value the UVA protection should be.

The second problem is that not all UVA filters are available/allowed by the law of the region everywhere.

While in the EU one can formulate a good and photostable sunscreen with very high UVA protection without the need of using a lot of chemicals it is considerably more difficult elsewhere.

And in my opinion it is impossible in the US given the allowed UVfilters and their combination possibilities. (AVO cannot be combined with inorganic filters).

One also has to think of that these organic filters should be compatible with each other and have a synergetic effect and be photostable. So one can use the minimum amount of chemicals for greater effect!

2.Photostable sunscreens

The composition has to be photostable giving a real protection for up to 2 hours in sunlight.

So as you can already see it is not an easy job!

What one should look for on the label is UVA filters:

AVO (has to be combined with either OCR, Polysilicone-15** or TinosorbM* or S** to be able to stabilize it!)

TinosorbS** and/or M* (they are UVB, UVA2 and UVA1 filters)

Mexoryl XS (UVA2)

Mexoryl XL* (UVA1)

ZnO (UVA2+1) but it should be combined with either TiO2 and preferably with other UVA+UVB filters!

*available in the EU, partially in AU, JP; not at all in the US!

** Available only in the EU.

In short: one has to buy a sunscreen that is sold in the EU. And preferably that contains Tinosorb S (and M).

Tinosorb filters have much greater filtering abilities than the patented Mexoryl filters! And freely available for any formulator in the World! (Mexoryl was patented by L'Oreal 1993 and 1998).

Tinosorb M and S are products of the Swiss based Ciba Speciality Chemicals that created these filters in 2005.

Today they are used in countless brands in the EU, like Nivea and Avène.

When combined with AVO (which is stabilized by them) and other UVB filters: TiO2 and/or OMC one can achieve a well balanced sunscreen that will protect both in the UVB and UVA2 and 1 range.(OMC also gets stabilized by these filters and its destabilizing effect on AVO disappears).

3. The Base

Many sunscreens unfortunately are poorly formulated even though they contain very good UVA filters.

There is a rule in formulating topical products that the size of the molecule should be smaller than 500Dalton to be able to penetrate into the Epidermis.

And it is a great rule! As long as the aim is to transport active ingredients into the Epidermis ( VitE) or deeper (Tretinoin).

But sunscreens should not be transported anywhere in the skin! They should remain on the surface of the skin to be able to protect fully.

If they penetrate in the skin then they will not scatter UV light away from the skin but within the skin hence doing more harm than good!

Today there are many scientists that believe that we should not follow the 500Dalton rule when it comes to sunscreens.

To be able to achieve a film on the surface of the skin rather within the skin (like a good moisturizer should) it is essential to use big molecules like silicones.

Dimethicone, Simethicone, Cyclomethicone; siloxanes etc should be high on the ingredients list to be able to make that the sunscreening agents will stay on the surface of the skin.

One could of course formulate with MicroBeads (AVO+OMC in dimethicone) tha will also make it possible to have a film like effect on the skin.

4. Pleasure

It is still not enough to have achieved all this: good UVA protection, photostability and a film on the surface of the skin.

The product has to be pleasant on the skin. It should not sting the skin (Mexoryl SX, XL and OCR tends to sting the eyes and the skin especially if one is on Acne treatments like Tretinoin or Azaleic Acid).

It should not make the skin greasy or shiny exaggerating pores and inperfections. (Mexoryl SX, XL, OCR and TinosorbM tends to do all this).

A good sunscreen should be matte hence minimizing the size of pores and imperfections (Silicone will do all this! If ZnO or TiO2 in higher amount is added the effect will be even greater and will last the whole day.)

List to remember:

Full UVA protection (EU filters preferably TinosorbS,M) (High SPF better chance to have higher UVA protection)

Silicone

TiO2 and /or ZnO

Photostable

Remember to reapply your sunscreen every 2h throughout the day!


One more advice:

Find out where you can check the daily UV-index for the area you live in. Remember the UV index applies for UVB rays (UVA is always higher!)

Avoid sun exposure all times as long as it is possible!
Avoidance is crutial
Cover your skin with thickly woven coloured clothes
Wear a broad rimmed hat and big sunglasses
Use a sunscreen all exposed skin


5.Sunscreens in the Future

All sunscreens will be like what I described now! J

With enhanced UVA protection by naturally occurring substances (Antioxidants).

On the package you will be able to see the performance graph of the sunscreen and the transmission graph so you'll be able to see how much UV rays the sunscreen allows to reach your skin in each spectrum.

6. Numbers

We should not think in numbers when it comes to sunscreens. Like an SPF 15 filters 93% of all UVB rays, or SPF20 filters 95% etc. Instead we should think like an SPF 15 allows 7% of the UVB rays to reach my skin, SPF 20 will let 5% of UVB rays reach my skin!

I should use a sunscreen that will protect my skin the most! That will allow very little light through (like an SPF50/50+ UVA 35+).



For further reading please see:

On silicones:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone

On sunscreens:

http://en.wikipedia....een_controversy

http://en.wikipedia....nning_activator

Attached Files


Edited by Eva Victoria, 29 June 2008 - 08:13 PM.


#2 Brainbox

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:01 PM

Thanks for this great overview! ;)

Btw,. how is your own sunscreen development proceeding?

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#3 Eva Victoria

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:14 PM

Thanks for this great overview! ;)

Btw,. how is your own sunscreen development proceeding?


Its production has stagnated a bit :(

#4 Brainbox

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:29 PM

I'd like to try it when it becomes available. For now, I found a sunscreen that probably is sufficient (Nivea DNAge spf50) but it's probably only sub-optimal. And it's very frustrating that the ingredient amounts are not available. The information websites for these products are just pathetic in case you want to find more elaborate information.

The alternatives I tried were to shiny...

#5 sdxl

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 05:08 AM

AVO (has to be combined with either OCR, Polysilicone-15** or TinosorbM* or S** to be able to stabilize it!)

There are other stabilizers as well.

TinosorbS** and/or M* (they are UVB, UVA2 and UVA1 filters)

Mexoryl XS (UVA2)

Mexoryl XL* (UVA1)

ZnO (UVA2+1) but it should be combined with either TiO2 and preferably with other UVA+UVB filters!

*available in the EU, partially in AU, JP; not at all in the US!

** Available only in the EU.

It's Mexoryl SX. And Mexoryl XL is just like the Tinosorbs a broad spectrum filter, though it is far less efficient.
Attached File  12.jpg   94.5KB   46 downloads

And sunscreens with Tinosorb S are not only available in the EU!

(Mexoryl was patented by L'Oreal 1993 and 1998)

Incorrect.
Attached File  10.jpg   81.38KB   51 downloads

Tinosorb M and S are products of the Swiss based Ciba Speciality Chemicals that created these filters in 2005.

Also incorrect. They were approved in 2000, so developed earlier.
http://www.springerl...myjq6qa8l52cegv

Why didn't you mention Neo Heliopan AP and Uvinul A Plus?
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#6 Eva Victoria

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 03:18 PM

Hi SDXL!

I did mix it up with the approval of TinosorbM in JP. Tinosorb was indeed approved in 2000 in the EU.

Sorry, my mistake! TinosorbS is available in the EU and AU.
Tinosorb M is av. EU, AU, JP.

"Why didn't you mention Neo Heliopan AP and Uvinul A Plus?"

I did not mention them because in my opinion in the EU we have better sunscreen agents. And they are not as broad-band as Tinosorb or Mexoryl.
But I would welcome an essay on these filters from you. It would be nice to read something else than critics from you. :-D Are you not French by any chance? ;) LOVE the French, they are always complaining :-D Vive la France :~

And I also stated that Mexoryl XS and XL are very good fotostable filters with weaker absorbtion spectrum than the Tinosorb filters.

Here is some documentation about Tinosorb S+M.

Remember it is not only about wearing sunscreen everyday but it is also about positive attitude! :-D

Attached Files


Edited by Eva Victoria, 30 June 2008 - 03:32 PM.

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#7 Eva Victoria

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 03:22 PM

I'd like to try it when it becomes available. For now, I found a sunscreen that probably is sufficient (Nivea DNAge spf50) but it's probably only sub-optimal. And it's very frustrating that the ingredient amounts are not available. The information websites for these products are just pathetic in case you want to find more elaborate information.

The alternatives I tried were to shiny...


Nivea DNAge is not a bad sunscreen at all in my opinion!
And I agree it has a very nice finish on the skin!

And it would be nice to have the active ingredients listed with the correct amount on the package not only 4* UVA protection (which surely is not correct).

Edited by Eva Victoria, 30 June 2008 - 03:23 PM.


#8 sdxl

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:38 PM

"Why didn't you mention Neo Heliopan AP and Uvinul A Plus?"

I did not mention them because in my opinion in the EU we have better sunscreen agents. And they are not as broad-band as Tinosorb or Mexoryl.

Define better. They provide photostable UVA protection. And very likely have synergistic effects with combinations like Tinosorb M+S.

But I would welcome an essay on these filters from you. It would be nice to read something else than critics from you. :-D

No, thanks. BASF has some nice promotional stuff on their site on Uvinul A Plus. Haven't seen much on Neo Heliopan AP and it looks like it isn't that popular after 8 years of approval. And all my criticism is justified IMO.

Are you not French by any chance? ;) LOVE the French, they are always complaining :-D Vive la France :~

No, and I'm not complaining either. Without the French there would be less sunscreen. Oui à l'été, non au vieillissement de ma peau!

Remember it is not only about wearing sunscreen everyday but it is also about positive attitude! :-D

Where can I buy that?

#9 zoolander

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:56 PM

Eva,

You have made your own sunscreen and from what I have read you plan to sell it to the members here. Hence, I ask that you declare this when posting recommendations for sunscreens. Whilst you have stated previously that you do not plan to make any profit from the sunscreen you plan to sell a conflict of interest still exists even if you do not believe so. For you to judge whether it's a conflict of interest is another conflict of interest all together.

If you do not post a disclaimer outlining the conflict of interest in your post I will look at the post as viral marketing and act accordingly. Do you understand?

#10 Ben

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 11:51 PM

Zoolander,

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Eva discussing sunscreens *other* than her own? And has she not been making suggestions for sunscreens from what would now be rival companies?

I have read every post eva has made on this board and nothing she has posted has suggested to me that she trying to market her product. She simply knows a lot about sunscreens and is trying to inform people.

I know there has been some tension between you and Eva recently over her clash with frederick and while I too believe frederick is in the right and that eva acted inappropriately, attacking her here, on this issue, is in my mind an injustice.

I don't think that eva and the phrase "viral marketer" should be used in the same sentence.

#11 spacey

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 11:55 PM

Zoolander,

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Eva discussing sunscreens *other* than her own? And has she not been making suggestions for sunscreens from what would now be rival companies?

I have read every post eva has made on this board and nothing she has posted has suggested to me that she trying to market her product. She simply knows a lot about sunscreens and is trying to inform people.

I know there has been some tension between you and Eva recently over her clash with frederick and while I too believe frederick is in the right and that eva acted inappropriately, attacking her here, on this issue, is in my mind an injustice.

I don't think that eva and the phrase "viral marketer" should be used in the same sentence.



I'm going to have to say that I second that.

#12 Brafarality

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 02:43 AM

What about a mask, personalized for each person's face, that is membranously thin, partially opaque, and likely tinted somewhat to filter out those UVAs on the threshold of the visual spectrum, and unobtrusive to the point where an onlooker 20 feet away would barely notice it?

Does something like this exist?
If not, are there any development plans?

And what about that spacesuit-looking NASA fabric outfit especially made for sufferers of Xeroderma Pigmentosum?
Might a marketable version be released someday?
I actually emailed the XP society about it a few years ago and they replied that the suits were not available for the general public, but rather only for children suffering from XP. And, furthermore, they are supposedly very hot and uncomfortable and are, thus, not the answer for daily use.

I personally love physical sunblocks like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide, but many will always find them messy and sticky. In order for the entire populace to embrace heliophobia, an effortless means of sunblocking must be made available for all.
A breathable, nearly transparent, light, conforming mask or shield for the face and perhaps the neck and shoulders should be developed and might be the solution, the answer. I would be one happy selenophile if it were.

I am wholly incapable of working with fabrics and materials, so I cannot develop it myself. I just have to wait and hope! ;)

Any information or updates on any of this would be great.

Thanks.

Edited by paulthekind, 01 July 2008 - 02:46 AM.


#13 ajnast4r

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 03:12 AM

actually wearing one is probably the most important thing.. oops

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#14 Eva Victoria

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:25 AM

Eva,

You have made your own sunscreen and from what I have read you plan to sell it to the members here. Hence, I ask that you declare this when posting recommendations for sunscreens. Whilst you have stated previously that you do not plan to make any profit from the sunscreen you plan to sell a conflict of interest still exists even if you do not believe so. For you to judge whether it's a conflict of interest is another conflict of interest all together.

If you do not post a disclaimer outlining the conflict of interest in your post I will look at the post as viral marketing and act accordingly. Do you understand?



Hi Zoolander!

There is a bit of a misunderstanding here, I am afraid.
I did make my sunscreen at a chemical company in Switzerland.
I do not plan what so ever to sell it through the internet yet.
The reason for this is that my site is not up and running before the end of summer and the second reason which is even more important is that the company that makes the sunscreen do not priority me. I am a very little fish in the big ocean.

I wrote this post because I get a lot of questions about what sunscreen people should buy.
So setting up a quick guideline could be helpful, I thought.

I did not write any sunscreen name in this little article because I did not want to mention Beiersdorf AG owned Nivea
(Light Feeling Sensation and DNAge EU sunscreens). They are the only manufacturers per se that understand these basic oulines of making good new-type of sunscreens (except the added fragrance and Coumarin).

If you wish you can of course remove all my posts.

Best regards

Eva Victoria

PS: I did make my Sunscreen based on these guidelines and did not make this article to fit my sunscreen. I truly believe in what most scientists now start to grasp that sunscreen agent can be very dangerous chemicals (even toxic for the cells) and one with so much responsibility to formulate products based on these chemicals should do a better job).
And I also truly believe that people without being a bio-chemist should have the right to know what might be the best for them at this moment of writing.

Edited by Eva Victoria, 01 July 2008 - 07:35 AM.


#15 Eva Victoria

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:40 AM

Thank you Ben and all of you who sent me PM now and in the past! :)

People like you give reason and meaning to my existence! Thank you, Ben!

I only want to help people and I don't have much to help with other than my education in a field which seemed quite useless for this purpose (eg. helping others through bio-chemistry).


Zoolander,

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Eva discussing sunscreens *other* than her own? And has she not been making suggestions for sunscreens from what would now be rival companies?

I have read every post eva has made on this board and nothing she has posted has suggested to me that she trying to market her product. She simply knows a lot about sunscreens and is trying to inform people.

I know there has been some tension between you and Eva recently over her clash with frederick and while I too believe frederick is in the right and that eva acted inappropriately, attacking her here, on this issue, is in my mind an injustice.

I don't think that eva and the phrase "viral marketer" should be used in the same sentence.



#16 Eva Victoria

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:52 AM

I never have heard of any mask for the purpose of protection against UVR in our age and on our Planet. I have had the same thoughts for decades though as you. A mask would be PERFECT! No chemicals on your skin needed, full 100% protection could be achieved that could not be done by chemical agents (nor physical ones).

The reason for not developing such a mask might be that in our society we are defined as individuals and this is connected to our faces. Covering your face up might apply your non-existence?
If this is true then I think it is even more important to keep your "original" contours of your face for your own sake to be able to keep your identity (at least in your own head). It looks like a Devilish-circle because achieving this without UV-protection cannot be done.

This is my personal opinion and might be as far from reality as ever.

I do love phisical blocks myself and do not mind to have my face painted white. Au contraire, I miss it and don't feel protected if there is not a visible white-cast to my face.

BTW, I found a sunscreen which I have ordered and are excited as a kid before Xmas to get it delivered:

Photoderm MINERAL SPF 50+ - UVA 22

http://www.bioderma....action/594.html

Has anybody tried this? Does it have a light non-greasy consistency?



What about a mask, personalized for each person's face, that is membranously thin, partially opaque, and likely tinted somewhat to filter out those UVAs on the threshold of the visual spectrum, and unobtrusive to the point where an onlooker 20 feet away would barely notice it?

Does something like this exist?
If not, are there any development plans?

And what about that spacesuit-looking NASA fabric outfit especially made for sufferers of Xeroderma Pigmentosum?
Might a marketable version be released someday?
I actually emailed the XP society about it a few years ago and they replied that the suits were not available for the general public, but rather only for children suffering from XP. And, furthermore, they are supposedly very hot and uncomfortable and are, thus, not the answer for daily use.

I personally love physical sunblocks like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide, but many will always find them messy and sticky. In order for the entire populace to embrace heliophobia, an effortless means of sunblocking must be made available for all.
A breathable, nearly transparent, light, conforming mask or shield for the face and perhaps the neck and shoulders should be developed and might be the solution, the answer. I would be one happy selenophile if it were.

I am wholly incapable of working with fabrics and materials, so I cannot develop it myself. I just have to wait and hope! :)

Any information or updates on any of this would be great.

Thanks.



#17 zoolander

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:57 AM

Eva has discussed her sunscreen in other threads. People have asked if she is going to sell it. She has stated previously that she would at a small cost.

Discussing sunscreens, regardless of whether they are hers or not, keeps the topic of sunscreens alive. I'm playing the devils advocate and keeping people honest

#18 Ben

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Ben and all of you who sent me PM now and in the past! :)

People like you give reason and meaning to my existence! Thank you, Ben!


My, and I'm sure our, complete and absolute pleasure. And you can put that in your frivolous post pipe and smoke it.

#19 Ben

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:11 AM

The reason for not developing such a mask might be that in our society we are defined as individuals and this is connected to our faces. Covering your face up might apply your non-existence?



I think paul, and this is really is a great idea, was talking about a mask that would be completely transparent and thin enough not to be noticed. I believe he was suggesting such an idea as an alternative to sunscreens.

I have to say what a fantastic idea, if it were possible it would remove the hassle of applying sunscreen and worrying about whether or not it was evenly distributed. What an idea!

Edit: double post and my dun work so good today.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 01 July 2008 - 08:20 AM.


#20 Ben

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:16 AM

I'm playing the devils advocate and keeping people honest



As you should continue to do. The devils advocate is an extremely important role.

I think it's plain though that eva has not yet engaged in any dishonest acts. Playing the devil's advocate is one thing, semi-attacking her in public is an entirely different matter and is perhaps counterproductive to your devil's advocacy as, while you are focusing on eva, there could be other miscreants out there on the forum being naughty.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 01 July 2008 - 08:18 AM.


#21 zoolander

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:53 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Eva discussing sunscreens *other* than her own? And has she not been making suggestions for sunscreens from what would now be rival companies?

I have read every post eva has made on this board and nothing she has posted has suggested to me that she trying to market her product. She simply knows a lot about sunscreens and is trying to inform people.


Then I will refer you to a topic titled "My SUNSCREEN launched" authored by Eva. In this topic Eva introduced her sunscreen and members essentially started placing orders. It's comments like

I'll let you know asap when we have enough in stock!!!

Unfortunately we are too small to be prioritized by our manufacturer in Switzerland to have enough of it at the moment :(

Working already on a website where I can make it available for everybody in the world!

Will keep you, guys posted!!!

And THANK YOU! (for those as well who wrote to me what they wanted from a sunscreen, it was very useful!)


and

Hope that my sunscreen will be available for the general public very soon. Working on it! smile.gif
The price will be what it cost to produce it, no revenue or profit on it! I want it to be affordable for everyone and be used in large quantities as a sunscreen suppossed to be.

I'll let you all know asap it is possible to buy it over the internet.


and

My sunscreen have been tried by some dermatologists and fully tested in the lab in vivo according to Colipa guidlines.
It truly has a high UVA protection in UVA2-1 (320-400nm). smile.gif
Higher than any sunscreen on the EU market (EU sunscreens have the highest UVA protection in the world).


that spark my interest in EVA as a viral marketer. The above quotes are unedited and how I read them. It appears that 1) conversations were had in private about what should be put in the sunscreen, 2) the sunscreen was ready for sales and ready for ordering, and 3) marketed as being superior to other products.

I think it's plain though that Eva has not yet engaged in any dishonest acts. Playing the devil's advocate is one thing, semi-attacking her in public is an entirely different matter and is perhaps counterproductive to your devil's advocacy as, while you are focusing on Eva, there could be other miscreants out there on the forum being naughty.


Until the dishonesty is out in the open there's very few ways to tell who is upfront and who is not hence, judgments are made. Attacking/warning her in a public forum was deliberate and I admit I have been hard on Eva because I have suspected foul play. I made these judgments before about other members and it doesn't really do anything for my image here at the institute, which is important if I am to act as a role model and influence people. However, the amount of traffic we receive makes us a prime target for viral marketing and I have zero tolerance. At the moment I do not care how "I" look and am more concerned about my role as a navigator.

If Eva is not a viral Marketer I sincerely apologize. As it stands I am not sure
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#22 Eva Victoria

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:03 AM

"Why didn't you mention Neo Heliopan AP and Uvinul A Plus?"

I did not mention them because in my opinion in the EU we have better sunscreen agents. And they are not as broad-band as Tinosorb or Mexoryl.

Define better. They provide photostable UVA protection. And very likely have synergistic effects with combinations like Tinosorb M+S.





But I would welcome an essay on these filters from you. It would be nice to read something else than critics from you. :)

No, thanks. BASF has some nice promotional stuff on their site on Uvinul A Plus. Haven't seen much on Neo Heliopan AP and it looks like it isn't that popular after 8 years of approval. And all my criticism is justified IMO.

Are you not French by any chance? :) LOVE the French, they are always complaining :) Vive la France ;)

No, and I'm not complaining either. Without the French there would be less sunscreen. Oui à l'été, non au vieillissement de ma peau!

Remember it is not only about wearing sunscreen everyday but it is also about positive attitude! :)

Where can I buy that?

When you find the place let me know, I will need it as well. I live with a French man myself :)


Post the profiles of Mexoryl SX 10% +XL 15% (Max possible concentration) and Tinosorb S 10%+M 10% (Max. allowed conc.)

Attached Files


Edited by Eva Victoria, 01 July 2008 - 09:03 AM.


#23 Fredrik

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:55 AM

What about a mask, personalized for each person's face, that is membranously thin, partially opaque, and likely tinted somewhat to filter out those UVAs on the threshold of the visual spectrum, and unobtrusive to the point where an onlooker 20 feet away would barely notice it?

Does something like this exist?
If not, are there any development plans?


I´ve seen a plastic face mask sold online, used after laser procedures to shield the face 100%. It´s clear plastic. I just can´t find it now when I did a search. But I found patents on it though.

Myself I use a Panama hat from coolibar, UPF 50. I would never use a "wielders mask" style thingy. A mans gotta keep some sense of style, even if sun phobic =)

This is a sun visor you can turn down to shield your face:

http://www.axtionsystems.com/sovis.htm

Edited by Fredrik, 01 July 2008 - 10:00 AM.


#24 Brafarality

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:16 AM

If Eva is not a viral Marketer I sincerely apologize. As it stands I am not sure



'Paul has cause, and he is not that subtle!' - Loose paraphrase of Walsingham's underling in Elizabeth.

I kind of wish I was subtle enough to launch something resembling a viral marketing campaign. :)
The first one I clearly remember via the web was for The Blair Witch Project. I am sure there are prior examples, but I cannot think of any at this early AM moment in New Jersey.

And, I am so partial here, being a person who is always seeking a better sunscreen, that I read Eva's posts specifically for information regarding release dates, availability, etc., of her sunscreens, and the info is very scarce.

I fully and completely respect the forum rules (being an unproven newbie at this time who could quickly wear out his welcome otherwise ;) ), though they are making me weep for the moment by making a 20% zinc oxide sunblock (is that awesome or what?!) more difficult to obtain. :)

Edited by paulthekind, 01 July 2008 - 11:17 AM.


#25 Ben

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:28 AM

This is a sun visor you can turn down to shield your face:

http://www.axtionsystems.com/sovis.htm


Wow now that's style! It's like a reverse legionnaire's hat! And I never thought those hats could be made any more dorky than they are. It hurts to be proven incorrect. Hurts.

#26 Eva Victoria

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:44 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Eva discussing sunscreens *other* than her own? And has she not been making suggestions for sunscreens from what would now be rival companies?

I have read every post eva has made on this board and nothing she has posted has suggested to me that she trying to market her product. She simply knows a lot about sunscreens and is trying to inform people.


Then I will refer you to a topic titled "My SUNSCREEN launched" authored by Eva. In this topic Eva introduced her sunscreen and members essentially started placing orders. It's comments like

I'll let you know asap when we have enough in stock!!!

Unfortunately we are too small to be prioritized by our manufacturer in Switzerland to have enough of it at the moment :(

Working already on a website where I can make it available for everybody in the world!

Will keep you, guys posted!!!

And THANK YOU! (for those as well who wrote to me what they wanted from a sunscreen, it was very useful!)


and

Hope that my sunscreen will be available for the general public very soon. Working on it! smile.gif
The price will be what it cost to produce it, no revenue or profit on it! I want it to be affordable for everyone and be used in large quantities as a sunscreen suppossed to be.

I'll let you all know asap it is possible to buy it over the internet.


and

My sunscreen have been tried by some dermatologists and fully tested in the lab in vivo according to Colipa guidlines.
It truly has a high UVA protection in UVA2-1 (320-400nm). smile.gif
Higher than any sunscreen on the EU market (EU sunscreens have the highest UVA protection in the world).


that spark my interest in EVA as a viral marketer. The above quotes are unedited and how I read them. It appears that 1) conversations were had in private about what should be put in the sunscreen, 2) the sunscreen was ready for sales and ready for ordering, and 3) marketed as being superior to other products.

I think it's plain though that Eva has not yet engaged in any dishonest acts. Playing the devil's advocate is one thing, semi-attacking her in public is an entirely different matter and is perhaps counterproductive to your devil's advocacy as, while you are focusing on Eva, there could be other miscreants out there on the forum being naughty.


Until the dishonesty is out in the open there's very few ways to tell who is upfront and who is not hence, judgments are made. Attacking/warning her in a public forum was deliberate and I admit I have been hard on Eva because I have suspected foul play. I made these judgments before about other members and it doesn't really do anything for my image here at the institute, which is important if I am to act as a role model and influence people. However, the amount of traffic we receive makes us a prime target for viral marketing and I have zero tolerance. At the moment I do not care how "I" look and am more concerned about my role as a navigator.

If Eva is not a viral Marketer I sincerely apologize. As it stands I am not sure


It makes me sad that after the private mails we had this morning you are not sure that I am not a "viral marketer".
I also asked you the delete my topic "My sunscreen launched" for any further misunderstanding. Please do that!

I would also like to state for everybody that:
I never planned selling my sunscreen anywhere else than through clinics of dermatologists in Oslo, at the most in Norway. Which is what I did. The sunscreen bottles were gone in just a few days and everybody loved it in Oslo.
I thought people could purchase it through these derm's offices from Oslo so I did not have to be involved either.
I never sold one bottle to anybody either on this forum or anywhere else!
I don't even have more than a few bottles myself of which I offered one to be send to free of charge to one person for trial. The person did not respond.

My only conditions for my sunscreen has always been that it should not be sold above the actual production cost per bottle.

To have a deal like this had to be compensated with a line of dermatologist's products that my father (also a bio-chemist) put together and are now sold for several 100$/jar. Manufactured in Oslo at a chemical lab for almost nothing. So the dermatologists can make their profit and the people of the street shall be able to afford a good sunscreen as well. A deal I could at least settle for.

You should know that in Scandinavia (ask Fredrik or others here from Scandinavia) cosmetic companies do not priority high SPF marketed even though they produce it and market it widely in the rest of the EU).
The affordable sunscreens stop at SPF20 (UVA rarely more than 8).
La Roche-Posay is the only line that you can get hold of that has SPF50+ for face, SPF20 for body and SPF40 fro kids :( Though LRP is conciderably more expensive than Garnier and the filters are exactly the same (except the concentration is higher for UVA in LRP).

It should be a law in my opinion to have the right for every one of us to use sunscreen excessively every day without driving oneself into bankruptcy! It should be a human right to be able to protect oneself!

I have worked with educating people in my spare time about the importance of every day usage of sunscreen; worked closely together with the Norwegian Health authorities since 1996 for having higher SPFs and equally high UVA protection in every sunscreen that can be obtained in the EU.

The result is that the Norwegian Health authorities together with L'Oreal (France) after many years of hard working finally got one thing through that the UVA value of a sunscreen (intended to be sold in the EU) should be 1/3 of the value of the SPF on the bottle.
It is not much but it is a beginning!

And if I can enlighten more people about sunscreens I'll use any means to do that. Like this wonderful forum! :)

I truly believe in the importance of educating people about their skin protection against the Sun. It is not only a cosmetic issue it is mostly a health issue.

I never intended to have nor ever had any financial benefit from doing this job.

I should have stick to writing only about sunscreen and related subjects that I know about. I did posted comments in topics that I probably should not have. I got carried away by all these interesting things people write about here! I am only human, after all!

So please I would really like you to remove my topic "My sunscreen launched" asap for further misunderstanding!
Thank you for taking your time reading this long post.

And thank you all of you who stood up for me! And all the mails you have written to me!

If I could help just one person here then my stay has been worth it!

#27 zoolander

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:37 PM

Once a topic has been posted into a public forum we are not supposed to delete it.

I believe that the last post that you made in this forum is a decent disclaimer. That is all I asked for. That changes my view somewhat about your intentions here. Thank you

#28 Brainbox

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 10:58 PM

Zoo, there are probably more forum contributors that have the same suspicion attached to them. Anyway, it's good to be on top of things using subtle approaches.......

I value the contributions of Eva a lot!

It's quite difficult to find a balance in judgement between negative effects of supposedly viral marketing and proven posting of sufficient high quality contributions by the same person. For that matter, anyone that is enthusiastic about a certain product or substance will potentially increase sales.

I also agree with you that it is the intention that counts.

Edited by brainbox, 01 July 2008 - 11:27 PM.


#29 Benae

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:33 PM

I second that!!!! Indeed, I too value her contribution!

Barbara

#30 Fredrik

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 12:04 AM

I think your intentions are good Eva. Your enthusiastic and keen on educating people. But I find to many incorrect statements and exaggerations to be able to trust your posts. You´ve been wrong about vitamin C, E, FDA-regulations, UV-filters, retinoids, synthetic antioxidants and stuff like availability/laws/timetables. I haven´t even felt like pointing it all out. It´s not my job. But I see that others here have also corrected your posts recently.

It´s like you´re in a hurry to post. Don´t be. It´ll just result in sloppy posts. Advice? Take your time and double check your sources before you post.

I know the above may sound harsh, but there´s no other way for me to say it. I don´t like to sugarcoat things. I want these forums to be a place of good science and sound advice.

Edited by Fredrik, 02 July 2008 - 12:19 AM.





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