73 replies to this topic

[PWAIN]

maxwatt, on 20-May 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

For that matter, speaking of resveratrol analogues, polydatin is promising and available if you know where to look.  Some Japanese researchers have reported on its metabolites, and it results in high blood levels of resveratrol, higher than one gets by taking resveratrol.  It seems to bypass intestinal glucoronidation and first pass liver metabolism, giving quite a spike.

In another thread, Maxwatt posted the above. It didn't seem to get any notice. The highlighted really got my attention.

I thought that polydatin was the stuff that made up a fair bit of the 50% powders. Does anyone have any more about this and where can I get it in a fairly high concentration?

Sounds like something we should be persueing.

Resvhead

[SearchHorizon]

maxwatt, on 20-May 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

Some Japanese researchers have reported on [polydatin] metabolites, and it results in high blood levels of resveratrol, higher than one gets by taking resveratrol.  It seems to bypass intestinal glucoronidation and first pass liver metabolism, giving quite a spike.

I just looked it up, and a polydatin molecule seems like a resveratrol molecule plus some attachment.

Whatever that is attached to resveratrol may be protecting it from glucoronidation.

Pretty interesting.

Pricing?

Edited by Michael, 15 July 2009 - 12:03 PM.

[PWAIN]

MaxWatt,

Any indication of availability and pricing on this?

resvhead

[maxwatt]

resvhead, on 18-Aug 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

MaxWatt,

Any indication of availability and pricing on this?

resvhead

There is polydatin available from a large Chinese extract supplier.  I have a fair amount of this left I could share, but there is more than a trace of resveratrol in the kilo I purchased, and the anthocyanins give it a bitter taste.  The heavy metal content was sufficiently low for human consumption.  It is acceptable for encapsulating, but it ruins the taste of Jack Daniels.  You can PM me if you want to know more.  Market price for polydatin tends to run 50% more than for resveratrol, but it is probably double now that the resveratrol price has been dropping.

If there were sufficient interest, I could look into a custom extraction by another lab I use that has produced a few hundred grams for me of much higher quality polydatin.  No significant amount of resveratrol (not that it matters) but more importantly, the anthocyanin content was so low there is not a bitter taste to it.  This may be academic, because I think the minimum amount they would want to make is at least 10 kilos.  They are happier with 100 kilo batches  

I am also not certain there is an advantage to using polydatin vs. using a larger dose of resveratrol. Hedgehog measured results in a limited number of subjects indicating a higher serum level of resveratrol after taking polydatin vs. taking resveratrol.  (Polydatin is metabolized to resveratrol.)   Whether this would hold up with a larger sample is an open question.

[renwosing]

I have a chinese source too.

5kg for 1800USD.

PM me if interested.

Renwosing

[maxwatt]

renwosing, on 2-Sep 2008, 01:52 PM, said:

I have a chinese source too.

5kg for 1800USD.

PM me if interested.

Renwosing

Lead, mercury, cadmium and content?  Independently verified, or from a COA from the manufacturer or dealer?

[renwosing]

COA means nothing. Anybody can photoshop a COA and post it but I would think anyone who really would think of purchasing would consider the reputation and integrity of the supplier foremost over any paper that can be doctored if ever truly desired.

A. Sigma does not as a rule supply the COA, but many 'dubious' institutions may tend to as what else do they have to convey integrity, ...

Renwosing

[Anthony_Loera]

renwosing, on 2-Sep 2008, 11:20 PM, said:

COA means nothing. Anybody can photoshop a COA and post it but I would think anyone who really would think of purchasing would consider the reputation and integrity of the supplier foremost over any paper that can be doctored if ever truly desired.

A. Sigma does not as a rule supply the COA, but many 'dubious' institutions may tend to as what else do they have to convey integrity, ...

Renwosing

I believe most people here would prefer a COA from an independent lab... as most people do not personally know you. And who knows, maybe you will be duped into buying a bad batch...

Surely you have seen the bad COA's I have provided the forum for crap that the Chinese have tried to pass on as clean and safe? At least one of them would be completely illegal and harmful to take, so you really need to test the powder when it get's into the USA.  Don't get me wrong, there are alot of good suppliers, but if you don't test... you simply may not get what you pay for, or maybe even... get someone hurt.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 03 September 2008 - 03:45 AM.

[renwosing]

You have your way of doing business, I have mine.

COA is nothing espcially when you are talking about anything from China.

It's the source. Everything starts from the first deal.
One can get a sample size order and do whatever tests they want in their own countries.

Renwosing

[smithx]

Sample sized orders are useless because the supplier could send good material for the sample, then bad material for the full shipment.

The best way to deal with new suppliers is to use an escrow service like escrow.com. That way, you can get ALL the material in house, test some using the independent testing facility of your own choice, and either accept or reject the shipment, with no risk to the supplier.

Anything else is taking a big risk.

renwosing, on 9-Sep 2008, 11:59 PM, said:

You have your way of doing business, I have mine.

COA is nothing espcially when you are talking about anything from China.

It's the source. Everything starts from the first deal.
One can get a sample size order and do whatever tests they want in their own countries.

Renwosing

[Anthony_Loera]

Renwosing,

We do our tests here in the good ol' USA when we get our batches from overseas. It's part of the GMP procedure we follow for safety and purity. But unlike others, we do it for every batch In an independent lab that is not associated with us...

That is what I am suggesting for you to do, that's all.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 10 September 2008 - 04:45 PM.

[renwosing]

Smithx,

What you suggested is acceptable.

And who will pay for the escrow fee? And both agreed on the reputation of the escrow?


Anthony,

You got your point. Just that in China, the so called 'independent labs' are still associated somehow.
I cannot comment about labs in the US, however.


Renwosing

[Anthony_Loera]

Renwosing,

What part of "We do our tests here in the good ol' USA" did you not read? The independent lab we use is in the United States:

Look at this COA and tell me where in China it comes from:
http://www.revgeneti...ol_Analysis.pdf

I don't think they have a city called Illinois in China my friend.  

Since you are stating that this lab maybe "associated", why in the heck would they send us bad COAs and still charge us?
Why do others use this lab, including some competitors?

Not understanding these details worries me about what you are trying to do, not for your sake, but for those that buy from you.

A

[renwosing]

I will be even more worried when you use AAC lab services:

http://www.consumerl...rmed/12_5_2005/

http://brainmeta.com...showtopic=17063

Renwosing

[maxwatt]

renwosing, on 10-Sep 2008, 11:02 PM, said:

I will be even more worried when you use AAC lab services:

http://www.consumerl...rmed/12_5_2005/

http://brainmeta.com...showtopic=17063

Renwosing

This was six years ago, and the deviation from required standards and procedures appears to have been corrected, according tot he latter of the links you provided:

Quote

... The promised corrective actions appear to adequately address the deviations observed and maybe referenced in your response to this letter.

[niner]

renwosing, on 10-Sep 2008, 10:02 PM, said:

I will be even more worried when you use AAC lab services:

http://www.consumerl...rmed/12_5_2005/

http://brainmeta.com...showtopic=17063

Renwosing

This means little or nothing.  Both links refer to the same letter, which was issued February 6, 2003.  It related to inadequate recordkeeping as required by cGMP for work done in 2002.  The FDA said in the letter: "We acknowledge receipt of your response dated November 20, 2002, to the Form FDA 483 issued at the close of the inspection. The promised corrective actions appear to adequately address the deviations observed and maybe referenced in your response to this letter."  There have been no further regulatory actions against AACL, so I think it's safe to assume that their recordkeeping and SOP has been up to cGMP snuff for the past half decade.

The first lab is from consumerlab.com; aren't they a competitor of AACL?  The link from brainmeta is from LifeMirage, an infamous ex-member of ImmInst.  His infamy relates to being, shall we say, "less than truthful".
edit:  Maxwatt beat me to it while I was writing this.

Edited by niner, 11 September 2008 - 04:04 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

We are considering Consumer Labs testing purely for marketing. Their
tests run about $3,200 each and are 5-6 times the amount most U.S.
certified labs charge, as they are used to garner attention to
products and are not used for actual manufacturers GMP processes. They
are simply too expensive, and are only used once a year for marketing,
not for ongoing safety and purity testing.

It is interesting, as there was a "ConsumerLabs issue" regarding the
TrimSpa product and AACL that was cleared up below:
This actually mentions both ConsumerLabs and AACL. I have to say this
one is an interesting read regarding claims, and notes that
ConsumerLabs testing is basically outsourced:
http://www.prweb.com...prweb319528.htm

ConsumerLabs is not like Consumer Reports, which is a non-profit.
ConsumerLabs hires 3rd party laboratories to do testing. They are not
actually a lab, but a more of a for profit PR Firm.

[edward]

renwosing, on 2-Sep 2008, 10:20 PM, said:

COA means nothing. Anybody can photoshop a COA and post it but I would think anyone who really would think of purchasing would consider the reputation and integrity of the supplier foremost over any paper that can be doctored if ever truly desired.

A. Sigma does not as a rule supply the COA, but many 'dubious' institutions may tend to as what else do they have to convey integrity, ...

Renwosing

I disagree, a COA with a phone number/ address to the lab and follow up with that lab on the details and authenticity is very valuable

[renwosing]

Smithx's suggestion sofar is the best.

I will checkout some escrows around.

Meanwhile, those looking for COA, they will know other sources, I am sure.

Renwosing

[drmz]

SearchHorizon, on Aug 15 2008, 03:57 AM, said:

maxwatt, on 20-May 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

Some Japanese researchers have reported on [polydatin] metabolites, and it results in high blood levels of resveratrol, higher than one gets by taking resveratrol.  It seems to bypass intestinal glucoronidation and first pass liver metabolism, giving quite a spike.

I just looked it up, and a polydatin molecule seems like a resveratrol molecule plus some attachment.

Whatever that is attached to resveratrol may be protecting it from glucoronidation.

Pretty interesting.

Pricing?

$125 / 100 gr http://www.kingherbs.com/prod03.htm

[Anthony_Loera]

Capsules are being made soon, testing is being done at the facility with the poly material in caps...

Cheers
A

[Ringostarr]

Anthony_Loera, on Jan 3 2010, 11:57 AM, said:

Capsules are being made soon, testing is being done at the facility with the poly material in caps...

Cheers
A

What is the price difference to resveratrol? How are you going to market it? As resveratrol? Just interested.

[niner]

Polydatin (aka Piceid) is resveratrol with a sugar molecule bound to one of the hydroxyl groups.  It has a molecular weight of 390.4, while resveratrol is 228.2, reflecting the extra mass of the sugar.  The sugar is cleaved off in vivo, releasing a free resveratrol, although it is conjugated in the same fashion, if not at the same rate as ordinary resveratrol.  Although I haven't seen any data showing that polydatin produces a higher plasma level of free resveratrol than an equivalent dose of plain resveratrol, we can at least describe what an equivalent dose would be:

1 gram res * (390.4g polydatin/228.2g res) = 1.71g polydatin

So you'll need to take 71% more polydatin than resveratrol for an equivalent dose, all else being equal.

[Ringostarr]

niner, on Jan 3 2010, 11:42 PM, said:

Polydatin (aka Piceid) is resveratrol with a sugar molecule bound to one of the hydroxyl groups. It has a molecular weight of 390.4, while resveratrol is 228.2, reflecting the extra mass of the sugar. The sugar is cleaved off in vivo, releasing a free resveratrol, although it is conjugated in the same fashion, if not at the same rate as ordinary resveratrol. Although I haven't seen any data showing that polydatin produces a higher plasma level of free resveratrol than an equivalent dose of plain resveratrol, we can at least describe what an equivalent dose would be:

1 gram res * (390.4g polydatin/228.2g res) = 1.71g polydatin

So you'll need to take 71% more polydatin than resveratrol for an equivalent dose, all else being equal.

Thanks niner.

Maybe Piceid is cheaper to produce while it results in higher plasma levels? I assume Anthony has a business/scientific reason for pursuing this? Is SRT501 this?

[niner]

Ringostarr, on Jan 4 2010, 06:08 AM, said:

Maybe Piceid is cheaper to produce while it results in higher plasma levels? I assume Anthony has a business/scientific reason for pursuing this? Is SRT501 this?

I don't know.  All I can say for sure is that SRT501 is not this.  SRT501 is micronized resveratrol suspended in an emulsion.

[Ringostarr]

niner, on Jan 4 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

Ringostarr, on Jan 4 2010, 06:08 AM, said:

Maybe Piceid is cheaper to produce while it results in higher plasma levels? I assume Anthony has a business/scientific reason for pursuing this? Is SRT501 this?

I don't know. All I can say for sure is that SRT501 is not this. SRT501 is micronized resveratrol suspended in an emulsion.

Got it niner. Thanks.

Anthony is usually ahead of the curve in introducing products.  I am guessing he has a good reason for this product. Maybe he can give us some data?

[Anthony_Loera]

Ringostarr,

I appreciate the interest, let me get closer to the product launch before letting you in on our thoughts concerning this new product with polydatin. Also, unfortunately the new material is not cheaper to make. Since the demand for this material is low, folks tend to not produce it in quantities. This is currently keeping it's price high. (It is actually more expensive than Resveratrol as of this post)

Cheers
A

[Ringostarr]

Anthony_Loera, on Jan 4 2010, 08:26 AM, said:

Ringostarr,

I appreciate the interest, let me get closer to the product launch before letting you in on our thoughts concerning this new product with polydatin. Also, unfortunately the new material is not cheaper to make. Since the demand for this material is low, folks tend to not produce it in quantities. This is currently keeping it's price high. (It is actually more expensive than Resveratrol as of this post)

Cheers
A

Got it A.  Thanks.

[maxwatt]

There are some papers mentioned by hedgehog in this POST.  Polydatin does metabolize to resveratrol in significant amounts.

[malbecman]

maxwatt, on Jan 4 2010, 07:24 AM, said:

There are some papers mentioned by hedgehog in this POST.  Polydatin does metabolize to resveratrol in significant amounts.

Right, I am not sure of the benefits of taking polydatin.  Yes, it does absorb much better (and dissolves easier, of course) but as niner mentioned, its pretty quickly metabolized to resveratrol in the liver and then glucuronidated just like resveratrol.
The main thing would be if the AUCs and T1/2s were better for an equivalent dose of the two........



edit for typos

Edited by malbecman, 04 January 2010 - 07:17 PM.