28 replies to this topic

[Rotty]

There the only bone supplement I could find that contain BMP's(Bone Morphogenetic Protein) I dont know what to think about it yet though. It could be a great product but I havnt heard much infact I have not heard anything about about the effects of BMP's consumed oraly on the human body yet.


Anyways I would like to hear yoru opinions on it?

I would also like to know what you would think about it for a person whos 19 and a former meth addict with not the best bone health?

I like to provide people with the full resources to answer my questions rather then just assume they will dot that work for me so ive included some links

this is the link to there homepage below
http://www.zycalbio.com/index.htm

And this is the link to the page with the ingredaints there product contains
http://www.zycalbio....ience.htm<br />
Heres the wikipedia for Bone Morphogenetic Protein

http://en.wikipedia....genetic_protein

[renwosing]

AOR's Ortho-Bone would be a better product.

[Bio-jack]

Acutally, Ostinol with its BMP is the only product that is osteoinductive - it can activate stem cells to grow bone tissue. The AOR's Ortho-Bone, while a good calcium source, contains no BMPs and can not stimulate cells to grow bone... or cartilage for that matter.

AOR's Ortho-Bone would be a better product.

[renwosing]

Overhyped product.

Renwosing

[Bio-jack]

Shallow that you should call a product and science "overhyped" when there are 40 years of medical research behind it, 20 years of clinical use - consider some of the reserach before casting trival comments on an area that is clearly unfamiliar to you. There are many solid medical journals that one could recommend.

Edited by Bio-jack, 11 December 2008 - 02:28 AM.

[niner]

Shallow that you should call a product and science "overhyped" when there are 40 years of medical research behind it, 20 years of clinical use - consider some of the reserach before casting trival comments on an area that is clearly unfamiliar to you. There are many solid medical journals that one could recommend.

Bio-jack, I'm afraid that I agree with renwosing. This product has some scammish hallmarks. I can't find a list of ingredients, I can't find any clinical trials, and it's only sold through "professional" middlemen, Naturopaths and the like, who are getting a cut for selling it. They talk about BMPs, but they don't say where they come from. Do they come from the same bone hydrolysates that are the main component of bone formulations from responsible vendors like AOR and Jarrow? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. I have osteopenia, so I've set up a bone health program for myself. Although the AOR product is great, I went with Jarrow Bone Up because it costs a lot less. In order to meet or exceed the quality of ingredients in AOR Ortho Bone, I add BioSil (choline stabilized silicic acid) and 90 mcg Jarrow MK7 to the regimen. Another key item for bone health, perhaps the most important one, is vitamin D3. The one I like is a 2000 IU gelcap from NOW. I get it at iherb.com. Other things: Don't drink colas. Also, do you know if there is anything wrong with your bones? Get a dexascan measurement if you think you have reason to have a problem.

[Bio-jack]

Niner,
Thanks for the reply, however after reviewing the medical literature more closely collagen hydroylsates do not provide osteoinductive capabilities to mesenchymal stem cells. There is a considerable amount of studies on Bone Morphogenetic Proteins over the last four decades with new reserach revealing their fundamental need in both bone and joint formation and homeostasis - review J. of Arthri Res and Ther. 2006 and Oct 2008 for BMPs use in cartilage and J Am Clin Nutr 2006 for BMP 2 as osteoporosis. Reserach now indicates that these key proteins can help protect bone and cartilage even without a DXA or in the absence of disease, something calcium based products have not demonstrated (NEJM - 2006), even with vitamin D-3.

Edited by Bio-jack, 12 December 2008 - 06:49 AM.

[niner]

Thanks for the reply, however after reviewing the medical literature more closely collagen hydroylsates do not provide osteoinductive capabilities to mesenchymal stem cells. There is a considerable amount of studies on Bone Morphogenetic Proteins over the last four decades with new reserach revealing their fundamental need in both bone and joint formation and homeostasis - review J. of Arthri Res and Ther. 2006 and Oct 2008 for BMPs use in cartilage and J Am Clin Nutr 2006 for BMP 2 as osteoporosis. Reserach now indicates that these key proteins can help protect bone and cartilage even without a DXA or in the absence of disease, something calcium based products have not demonstrated (NEJM - 2006), even with vitamin D-3.

The substances I'm talking about aren't collagen hydrolysates. In fact, they aren't hydrolysates at all; I misspoke above. They are lyophilized bone extracts. From the AOR site, they are described as "ossein microcrystalline hydroxyapatite complex (MCHC), a lyophilized extract of bovine bone, which retains the intact microcrystalline structure of whole bone." Ossein apparently does contain BMPs, according to http://pmid.us/11483152 , although whether it is present in MCHC is a question. I'm still dubious about Ostinol; it's just entirely unclear how much if any BMP is present there, and from where it's derived. If Ostinol is just a more expensive version of Jarrow Bone Up with lower quality ingredients, then it's not a very good deal. If it's something better, then what's the evidence of that?

[Bio-jack]

Unfortunately you are reading marketing material over science - MCHA is by definition calcium and phosphate and there are no proteins in it - that is why it is a good substrate for protein purication in a column extraction. The reference you provided was an old 2001 paper that mentioned a BMP-like protein - which is not BMP. Moreover, BMPs are extracted from bone material via removing all calcium - which is the definition of demineralized bone matrix. The products you mentioned are common consumer products - Ostinol™ is sold to healthcare professionals and supported by considerable reserach.

[niner]

Unfortunately you are reading marketing material over science - MCHA is by definition calcium and phosphate and there are no proteins in it - that is why it is a good substrate for protein purication in a column extraction. The reference you provided was an old 2001 paper that mentioned a BMP-like protein - which is not BMP. Moreover, BMPs are extracted from bone material via removing all calcium - which is the definition of demineralized bone matrix. The products you mentioned are common consumer products - Ostinol™ is sold to healthcare professionals and supported by considerable reserach.

I know the difference between marketing material and science, and all I can find at the Ostinol site is marketing material. So where's the science that supports Ostinol as being good for anything besides enriching the makers and sellers of Ostinol? Don't point me to papers about BMPs, because we have no evidence that Ostinol contains any BMPs. Being sold to "healthcare professionals", ie naturopaths, chiropractors, and witch doctors is not impressive.

[xztop12]

I think this supplement deserves revisiting, as Bone Morphogenic Proteins have been implicated in a variety of dieseases.

Does anyone have any ancedotal evidence in support for Ostinol? Anything regarding the BMP content?

I can purchase a pound of Deer Antler Velvet which is reported to be high in Bone Morphogenic Protein for the same price as a month supply of Ostinol.


And would oral preperations be useless?

"Antler growth represents possibly the most rapid example of bone formation in the animal kingdom," said Dr. Mundy. "During growth, antler cells express a wide range of growth regulatory peptides that are incorporated into the antler bone matrix. Some of these peptides are present in normal human and bovine bone." He said bone morphogenetic proteins (BMPs) have powerful effects on bone formation. Fibroblast growth factors (FGFs) stimulate bone formation systemically, restore trabecular bone microarchitecture, and enhance fracture repair. But he pointed out that neither peptide could be used as systemic therapeutic agents because they will not survive the digestion process."

[xztop12]

There is also an injectable form of Deer Antler Extract called Pantocrine. Although marketed as more of a physical strength enhancer, it may be of some interest here, in regard to its Bone Morphogenic Protein content.

[bigsend]

But he pointed out that neither peptide could be used as systemic therapeutic agents because they will not survive the digestion process."

Then how does taking melatonin capsules work?

[doc3osh]

Bio-Jack:
I contacted James Scaffidi, CEO of ZyCal Bioceuticals, the makers (or at least the sellers) of Ostinol. He has not yet sent me any link to any paper in any journal that supports the oral absorption of BMPs and subsequent improvement in any measure of bone mineral density by serum markers, DXA scan, or any other means.

By contrast, here are 2 papers showing studies done in humans with oral dosing of ch-OSA as sold in Biosil by Jarrow or now in RegeneMax by Xymogen:

From 2008, showing improvement in BMD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18547426

From 2005, showing improvement in skin/hair/nails and good safety profile:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16205932

That's all we are asking of ZyCal: show some proof. There is a full-page advertisement in a supplement magazine that I am looking at now from Ostinol stating that Pro-Stiminol "is 3 times more effective than Calcium/Vitamin D" in increasing bone density by DXA scan-- with no link to any paper, just the statement.

It does not inspire confidence.

Josh Trutt, MD

Thanks for the reply, however after reviewing the medical literature more closely collagen hydroylsates do not provide osteoinductive capabilities to mesenchymal stem cells. There is a considerable amount of studies on Bone Morphogenetic Proteins over the last four decades with new reserach revealing their fundamental need in both bone and joint formation and homeostasis - review J. of Arthri Res and Ther. 2006 and Oct 2008 for BMPs use in cartilage and J Am Clin Nutr 2006 for BMP 2 as osteoporosis. Reserach now indicates that these key proteins can help protect bone and cartilage even without a DXA or in the absence of disease, something calcium based products have not demonstrated (NEJM - 2006), even with vitamin D-3.

The substances I'm talking about aren't collagen hydrolysates. In fact, they aren't hydrolysates at all; I misspoke above. They are lyophilized bone extracts. From the AOR site, they are described as "ossein microcrystalline hydroxyapatite complex (MCHC), a lyophilized extract of bovine bone, which retains the intact microcrystalline structure of whole bone." Ossein apparently does contain BMPs, according to http://pmid.us/11483152 , although whether it is present in MCHC is a question. I'm still dubious about Ostinol; it's just entirely unclear how much if any BMP is present there, and from where it's derived. If Ostinol is just a more expensive version of Jarrow Bone Up with lower quality ingredients, then it's not a very good deal. If it's something better, then what's the evidence of that?

[kimrick]

It's now five years later and studies pretty much confirm what Bio-Jack asserted in 2008.

renwosing and niner (no caps) took a clearly hostile stance from the get go. The last five years have pretty much demolished their irrational objections. Remember when neurogenesis was laughed at? Ridiculed?

Best price on Ostinol BMPs seems to be at camformulas.com.

Edited by kimrick, 07 July 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[niner]

It's now five years later and studies pretty much confirm what Bio-Jack asserted in 2008.

renwosing and niner (no caps) took a clearly hostile stance from the get go. The last five years have pretty much demolished their irrational objections. Remember when neurogenesis was laughed at? Ridiculed?

Yeah, asking for evidence is clearly "irrational". Show me the data that "demolishes" my objections.

[maggie67]

Niner can I ask if you have improved your osteopenia? And if so,have you added anything to your regime or changed any supplements?

[kimrick]

My Cerebral Palsy sister (61 years) has Rheumatoid Arthritis and therefore brittle bones. She fractured (vertical, lenthwise fracture > 6" long) ler lower leg bone (name?).  Her orthopedic surgeon, at my urging and despite her - the surgeon's - skepticism, had a lenghty phone conversation with the CEO/scientist who discovered, manufactures, and markets Ostinol and Tricalcidin (both are needed together). He is quite accessable by phone.

 

After their conversation the surgeon (a scientist in her own right IMO) recommended Ostinol + Tricalcidin for my sister, a 180 degree reversal from her original opposition.  Approximately one year later the fracture is indeed healed, and instead of above-the-knee amputation from the fracture complications (gangrene is very common in these cases) she survived, leg intact.

 

This is our experience with Ostinol + Tricalcidin.  I believe Ostinal is very much for real, and there is no known competitive product that I am aware of....  too bad because it is not cheap. We are bearing the $100/month cost of the 450mg capsules in stride and will continue with the 175mg capsules after about 18 months, indefinitely, always with Tricalcidin.

[niner]

mckimrick, do you have a financial stake in Ostinol?  Does Bio-jack?  This thread sure has a lot of marketing and puffery, and not a shred of evidence.  I think Ostinol is a scam.  Prove me wrong.

[sthira]

Ostinol:
Active Ingredients: Collagen Cyplexinol (containing collagen and bone morphogenic proteins) Hydrolyzed Collagen Peptides

Tricalcidin-3:
Active Ingredients: Calcium Calcium (ascorbate) Calcium (citrate) Magnesium Silicon Vitamin C Vitamin D Vitamin D-3 (cholecalciferol) Inactive Ingredients: Cellulose, Magnesium stearate, Microcrystalline cellulose, Silicon dioxide, Stearic acid

[Luminosity]

There are currently at least two other sources of Bone Morphogenic Protein supplements marketed in the US besides Ostinol.  Bone Morphogenic Proteins do work for most people who need them and can be absorbed orally, if they are formulated properly.  They can cost a dollar a day, but I haven't seen cheaper than that.  Don't buy raw materials from China because it's too risky; you wouldn't know what you were really getting.

[ironfistx]

These may not be that harmless:

 

http://www.aaos.org/...8/research7.asp

 

According to the paper they may promote tumor formation

Edited by ironfistx, 27 March 2015 - 11:00 PM.

[ironfistx]

Actually that may be for implants.

[Luminosity]

Those are implants and bone grafts, and the paper says they possibly inhibit some cancers and haven't been proven to cause any cancers, so, yeah, you got that very wrong.  

[niner]

I found a study of "cyplexinol" (active ingredient in Ostinol) 150mg daily, for osteoarthritis.  It's supported by the company that makes Ostinol, authored by a chiropractor and the company president.  They claim significant improvements in pain and function scores.   So there is actually some evidence now.  It's in an Integrative Med journal, and is peer reviewed. 

 

Here's a Swanson product containing 150mg "cyplexinol".  It's a buck a day.

[motorcitykid]

 

Shallow that you should call a product and science "overhyped" when there are 40 years of medical research behind it, 20 years of clinical use - consider some of the reserach before casting trival comments on an area that is clearly unfamiliar to you. There are many solid medical journals that one could recommend.

Bio-jack, I'm afraid that I agree with renwosing. This product has some scammish hallmarks. I can't find a list of ingredients, I can't find any clinical trials, and it's only sold through "professional" middlemen, Naturopaths and the like, who are getting a cut for selling it. They talk about BMPs, but they don't say where they come from. Do they come from the same bone hydrolysates that are the main component of bone formulations from responsible vendors like AOR and Jarrow? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. I have osteopenia, so I've set up a bone health program for myself. Although the AOR product is great, I went with Jarrow Bone Up because it costs a lot less. In order to meet or exceed the quality of ingredients in AOR Ortho Bone, I add BioSil (choline stabilized silicic acid) and 90 mcg Jarrow MK7 to the regimen. Another key item for bone health, perhaps the most important one, is vitamin D3. The one I like is a 2000 IU gelcap from NOW. I get it at iherb.com. Other things: Don't drink colas. Also, do you know if there is anything wrong with your bones? Get a dexascan measurement if you think you have reason to have a problem.

 

 

Hey Niner in regard to the BioSilk, this company claims that ioncic silica delivers 20x absorbtion.
https://positivepowe...s/super-silica/

 

This is interesting:

http://onlinelibrary....35412/abstract
 

[Michael]

As Niner indicates, the website of this company looks shady, and old archived versions look shadier still. User Bio-Jack makes a lot of assertions, but provides zero evidence in support. All of Bio-Jack's posts on Longecity advocate this product, suggesting that he is unusually motivated about this one supplement  for some reason

[Adaptogen]

I've been seeing this product pop up on Amazon and came across this 2023 study:

The dietary supplement Cyplexinol® alleviates joint pain in men and women