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Indium Use


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#1 manx

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 01:16 AM


Hello

I've used Indium on and off for about 3 years. My longest stint so far has been Sept 08 to date, regular intake. I love the supplement as it appears to reduce my need for sleep, my hairs regrowing (really) and I generally feel more energized on it. Wondered if anyone has taken this for a more considerable period, what their experiences have been over a longer time-frame?

Regards

Manx
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#2 Thorsten2

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 11:21 PM

Hey

I have started taking Indium. I think it's amazing. For years I've experimented with so much supplements. I became obsessed at balancing my neurotransmitter levels. I took things to boost production of dopamine, serotonin and gaba. In all honesty looking back this was all completely uneccessary.
My experience taking Indium has brought me to realise that it was my hormones whch were inbalanced. Now I feel young and alive with so much energy. Taking too much indium can also bring about quite deep weird medative states which are beautiful in my opinion. Obviously this option is for people who have too much money though as this mineral is extrememly expensive. Now, I'm usually very good at hunting down the best deals when it comes to supplementing but Ive had no luck with indium. Indium XL appears to be the only decent source. I've found one site that exclusively deals in indium but they practically admit to watering down the concentration for 'dosing reasons' (obviously nothing to do with the fact that they're getting more for their money!!). The reason this bothers me is because the dosing with XL is one drop per day (this has little effect). Only when I dose at 4/5 drops daily + do I experience the reported benefits (surging hormones, increased energy, socialibility, better cognitive performance, etc, etc). And for a 6ml bottle that is supposed to last 6 months, this actually lasts under 1 month. Can anybody help??? Does anyone know a decent source? (high concentration and reasonable pricing)
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#3 VespeneGas

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:39 AM

Seriously? I can't find any credible references for Indium being nutritionally essential, or even safe. It appears to dangerously elevate the concentration of trace minerals in the cell. The only pubmed abstracts I could find suggest that it's bad for you:

See pubmed entries 12187935 and 5718188 .

Any evidence that you're not just hurting yourselves? :p
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#4 Lufega

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:53 AM

Indium is also used as a contrast agent for imaging studies. This should imply that it's relatively safe, right?
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#5 abelard lindsay

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 04:32 AM

I tried Indium today. Wow! I would put it in a class all by itself among supplements. I really can't compare it to anything else. It had a really pronounced mood and nootropic effect on me. Much different from any other nootropic I have tried. I used the IndiumEase product. There aren't any pubmed studies on it at all except some old toxicity studies, so if you're looking for something that is widely used and has a long safety track record I would not recommend it.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 10 May 2009 - 04:33 AM.

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#6 synaesthetic

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 10:10 AM

It might just be me but I tried indium a few months ago one morning and later that day had coffee, I got really really bad anxiety when I had this combination. I have not taken it since since I do not know enough about what it is really doing or how it works.
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#7 Lufega

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 12:57 PM

Abelard, thanks for the update. Keep us posted on this!
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#8 abelard lindsay

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 03:00 PM

Hmm... This patent claims Indium Sulfate can be used to strengthen teeth.

http://www.patentsto...escription.html

...

The resulting precipitate is a calcium phosphate or hydroxylapatite, the natural constituent of tooth enamel, with incorporated indium and fluoride ions. Not only does this process result in remineralized enamel, but the remineralized enamel is more resistant to subsequent demineralization than was the original enamel.

Soluble fluoride and indium salts which are suitable for use in solutions of the present invention include, but are not limited to, sodium fluoride, zinc fluoride, betaine fluoride, alanine stannous fluoride, hexylamine fluoride, indium chloride, indium sulfate, and indium nitrate. Suitable salts for other desired cations and anions would be obvious to one skilled in the art.

...

The many different cations and anions with which one could remineralize tooth enamel combine to form many different precipitates. Most preferred precipitates are calcium phosphate compounds with small amounts of indium and fluoride incorporated therein.

...


I find it interesting that fluoride and indium salts have similar chemical properties in this application.
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#9 4eva

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 04:22 PM

It might just be me but I tried indium a few months ago one morning and later that day had coffee, I got really really bad anxiety when I had this combination. I have not taken it since since I do not know enough about what it is really doing or how it works.


I read on some website that if you're under 30 you may not benefit from it.
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#10 zawy

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 06:40 PM

Indium is a rare metal and these are not generally safe. Have we evolved to deal with it? How much is in the average person? What, if any, proteins in the animal kingdom have indium as a constituent? I would consider it like cadmium and mercury, until a lot of research has proven otherwise. I'm sure there is not a lot toxicity research on it. It sounds like it is having a stimulant effect which is not necessarily a good sign for the long term health of the brain. It's used in the surface of most LCD products and has been made famous by nanosolar for CIGS solar cells. The primary industrial source is from zinc production where it is found at only 150 ppm.
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#11 niner

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:03 PM

Indium is a rare metal and these are not generally safe. Have we evolved to deal with it? How much is in the average person? What, if any, proteins in the animal kingdom have indium as a constituent? I would consider it like cadmium and mercury, until a lot of research has proven otherwise. I'm sure there is not a lot toxicity research on it. It sounds like it is having a stimulant effect which is not necessarily a good sign for the long term health of the brain. It's used in the surface of most LCD products and has been made famous by nanosolar for CIGS solar cells. The primary industrial source is from zinc production where it is found at only 150 ppm.

Yeah, my feelings as well. What I'd like to know is, who is the first guy who said, "hmm... I wonder what would happen if I ate some Indium?" Was this a suicide attempt gone wrong?
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#12 Lufega

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 03:35 AM

Other minerals like Iodine, lithium, boron, silica were once considered to be unimportant to human health. Now we know different. The last two still don't have daily recommended values established for them. The truth is no one knew anything about them just as no one knows what indium does in the body. Anytime now we'll have studies coming out as more people generate interest in it. The toxicity reports don't completely rule out it's usefulness, if any. Silica is essential for life, but if you breathe it in, it will create lung problems. You don't need a lot of manganese to reach toxicity. What we need to figure out is how much indium is safe and what amount is toxic.

I do not know of any toxic metals that produce positive effects in people. That said, I've never taken this before but I've been eyeing the anecdotal reports for sometime. I, myself am waiting for those studies to confirm that this is safe.

Is there any way to figure out what foods, if any, contain indium? Is this found is grey salt???

Edited by Lufega, 16 May 2009 - 03:38 AM.

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#13 4eva

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 03:41 AM

Its not water soluable and that is why it is not found in food.

http://www.indiumfor....com/indium.htm
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#14 zawy

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 10:13 AM

Other minerals like Iodine, lithium, boron, silica were once considered to be unimportant to human health. Now we know different.

The 3 elements you list are known to exist in the body, but indium is not:

http://www.foresight...ine/Ch03_1.html

If it's not found in food, then we better not take it because it's not something we've evolved to ingest nor evolved to benefit from if it's not normally in us. From this perspective, indium is a little like a pharmaceutical, except that at least someone is trying to design pharmaceuticals to be less toxic based on past experience and theory. If it can't be made at low temps and low pressure by DNA-based systems, nor otherwise normally encountered in our environment like a common mineral or element, then you can be 95% sure it's toxic.

Edited by zawy, 16 May 2009 - 10:14 AM.

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#15 Lufega

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 12:31 AM

Other minerals like Iodine, lithium, boron, silica were once considered to be unimportant to human health. Now we know different.

The 3 elements you list are known to exist in the body, but indium is not:

http://www.foresight...ine/Ch03_1.html

If it's not found in food, then we better not take it because it's not something we've evolved to ingest nor evolved to benefit from if it's not normally in us. From this perspective, indium is a little like a pharmaceutical, except that at least someone is trying to design pharmaceuticals to be less toxic based on past experience and theory. If it can't be made at low temps and low pressure by DNA-based systems, nor otherwise normally encountered in our environment like a common mineral or element, then you can be 95% sure it's toxic.


Thank you for that site! Your argument makes perfect logical sense and I agree wholeheartedly. I do remember from chemistry class or maybe organic chemistry, trying to figure out the composition of the human body and we never reached a full 100%. The difference was a fraction of a % (I think) but it was interesting nonetheless.

Are there other substances that are toxic to the body but make people feel better? (serious question!)
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#16 Thorsten2

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 11:19 PM

I suppose it's never going to be fully accepted in any sort of suplemental sense until there is concrete proof of its claims. All I know is I can't live without it. It's not addictive in any way but I notice if I don't take it for a few days it makes me feel more sluggish, less fitter (I am undoubtably a lot more fitter on indium). It doesn't really have an effect on me mentally like it did initially but that's mainly because I eat so well now. I've eliminated any mental disorders through diet alone (rich in fruits,nuts and wholesome foods) so menatlly I feel good each day anyway. I just use indium sparingly now just to give me that slight edge. Especially for exercise. Like everthing in life, everything to do with health can have a dominos like effect. I'd rather this dominos effect working in a positive way for me as opposed to me getting unfitter, fat and lazy and eating worthless foods that do nothing for my body but I still crave them (due to my brain chemistry being off balance probably through lack of exercise, poor diet and no indium lol). Indium positives are felt through good nutrition and diet. If you eat pizza whilst taking indium each day you will still see benefits but I suppose you would be wasting your money to some degree. So with Indium giving me that boost this impacts on the fact that I've got far more endurance, strength (how this works i'm not sure but it's apparantly due to the return of your raging youthful hormones, more libido too lol) which in turn increases my mental state and gives me more sense of achievement with how much I do.
Indium is not something you take to get high (although you probably can get high if you are a new user to its effects - why you want to do this though is beyond me as it wouldn't be like taking coke or anything). You take it as a lifestyle choice. You research it and decide whether you want to take it. I personally have taken the choice to take it and it benefits me. People will always hate it and back it up their superior claims of 'scientific proof'. It's a toxic metal apparantly yet people have taken it for decades in its sulphate form (proven fit for human consumption and very untoxic) and it has been proven to extend life not destroy it. Surely if it was that toxic there would be some serious health complaints even within a relatively short period of time for a person. Something that is poisoning you (apparantly) would have some kind of tell-tell signals or signs even within a short time frame really. The body is clever in the way that it can tell us that something isn't right. If I've got aids my symptons are going to manifest themself at some point? My body will be telling me in some way that something isn't right for instance I will be feeling a bit rough maybe for a period of time. You know, you would notice something not being right. You might start getting pains in your lower regions. Or you might start feeling a bit strange and not in a good way. You would the start to think to yourself what this could be related to. There is nothing of any literature I know of with human beings suffering health consequences through Indium supplementation. Show this to me and I will think differently but for now there is nothing. I have searched the internet extensively for any proof of this. I suppose it's one of those things with this supplement due to it not being widely known of.
Of course if you need definitive proof of it being safe then maybe there are other supplements you should be taking. It's all about what you as an individual decides to put in your body. I cannot even remember the research I done that brought me to the conclusion to take this supplement but I remember the pro's def outweighed the con's. Do your own research. Maybe in time it will be proved as the ultimate anti-aging supplement.
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#17 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 04:47 AM

So I'm back. After playing around with Indium for a few weeks this is what I have to report:

First of all Indium is not likely to be very toxic, given the MSDS's I've looked at:

According to:

http://www.chemcas.c.../13464-82-9.asp

LDLO - Lowest Possible Amount Needed To kill a mouse: 1200mg/kg.

The bottle says 1/2 oz is 90 days supply for 150lb.
Thus .5 oz= 14174 mg

14174/90 = 155 mg a day for

150lb = 68kg

155mg/68kg= 2mg/kg.

So you're taking 1/600th of the lowest known lethal dose if you're taking the full dose.

The LDLO for Caffiene by comparison is 192mg/kg



Secondly, the effects. Definitely NOT for everyone, IMHO:

The Good:

Sensory perception becomes more sensitive.
More observant.
More imaginative.
More in the moment.
Reading is more interesting and easier.
More coordinated and in touch with my body.
Skin seems to heal faster.

The Bad:

Causeless anxiety, dread, and fear -- even at low doses. Of course, I am more anxiety prone than the average person.
Vivid complicated nightmares.

The Ugly:

Scaling up to the recommended dose, I get a bit of a return of mild OCD symptoms that I used to have in the past when under extreme stress.
One of my moles started to peel -- which may be a good thing -- or not. This stopped after I stopped taking Indium. It just looked like my body was working hard to try to clean up the mole or something. I just put it down in "ugly" secion because it was just something I thought was sort of bizarre.

So I only take 1/4 the recommended dose once a week now -- mainly just because I'm curious. I make sure to take a lot of tryptophan and other things beneficial to my serotonin system to help ward off the anxiety side effects. The effects seem to linger for a day or two afterwards. Indium is a weird supplement. I would definitely put it in a class all by itself.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 June 2009 - 05:12 AM.

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#18 k10

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:56 AM

Indium compounds are encountered rarely by most people. All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic.

http://www.lenntech....e...0JFn7Q7VB


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#19 k10

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 12:08 PM

“To the best of our knowledge the acute and chronic toxicity of indium is not fully known. Exposure to indium compounds may cause pain in the joints and bones, tooth decay, nervous and gastrointestinal disorders, heart pain and general debility. Experiments with animals also indicate that indium may cause reduced food and water consumption with weight loss, pulmonary edema, pneumonia, blood, liver and kidney damage, leg paralysis and damage to the brain, heart, adrenals and spleen.”


http://www.espi-meta...diumsulfate.pdf
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#20 abelard lindsay

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 01:34 AM

“To the best of our knowledge the acute and chronic toxicity of indium is not fully known. Exposure to indium compounds may cause pain in the joints and bones, tooth decay, nervous and gastrointestinal disorders, heart pain and general debility. Experiments with animals also indicate that indium may cause reduced food and water consumption with weight loss, pulmonary edema, pneumonia, blood, liver and kidney damage, leg paralysis and damage to the brain, heart, adrenals and spleen.”


http://www.espi-meta...diumsulfate.pdf


Well it's all a matter of dosage and these are very small doses, 1/600th the Lowest lethal dose. For instance, tylenol is an effective and safe pain reliever but 15 tylenol taken all at once will cause fatal liver damage. Anyway, if any of you have reservations about taking Indium, then don't take it. The anxiety side effects are pretty strong, at least for me, and probably enough to write it off for most people.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 24 June 2009 - 01:36 AM.

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#21 k10

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 02:14 AM

What dosage are you taking? Have you tried taking less to see if you can still reap benefits without the side effect of anxiety?
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#22 Thorsten2

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 12:19 PM

Do you notice your anxiety gets better when you stop taking Indium? I never noticed any anxiety issues myself with it. I thought by balancing your hormones it would make you more centred? If your hormones are balaced and functioning as they should this will level out neurotransmitter levels too. That's how I feel on it anyway.
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#23 What'sAllThisThen

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 04:51 AM

There's a lot of controversy with the safety of this element it seems, but some of the reports on this forum are interesting. The studies that say it's dangerous don't seem to apply to ingestion though, and when it does it's in doses 1000's of times larger than supplemented. At the same time the positive studies never seem to be successfully sourced.

In this and other threads I see Abelard Lindsay and HyperHydrosis both now say it causes them anxiety. That's a shame considering the opposite is the common for earlier reports. I wonder why this is? If it supposedly causes increased mineral absorption, is there a mineral that could be causing anxiety? Or if it's affects on hormones is true, I guess it could be doing more than "balancing" them. Or age and additional supplements.
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#24 Thorsten

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 02:04 PM

There's a lot of controversy with the safety of this element it seems, but some of the reports on this forum are interesting. The studies that say it's dangerous don't seem to apply to ingestion though, and when it does it's in doses 1000's of times larger than supplemented. At the same time the positive studies never seem to be successfully sourced.

In this and other threads I see Abelard Lindsay and HyperHydrosis both now say it causes them anxiety. That's a shame considering the opposite is the common for earlier reports. I wonder why this is? If it supposedly causes increased mineral absorption, is there a mineral that could be causing anxiety? Or if it's affects on hormones is true, I guess it could be doing more than "balancing" them. Or age and additional supplements.


Did you get around to trying this?

I know it gets shot at quite often but I have taken this supplement on and off for at least two years. When I take it, it definitely improves my quality of life.

Due to my horrendous quality of sleep that my body seems to be enduring lately I decided to bring Indium back in and this has sorted my sleep out straight away.

There are a multitude of observable benefits for myself whilst taking this but I never stay on it. I'm just trying to think why that is? I think it might be the stimulant type properties, maybe it could increase anxiety? It's bad that I can't remember.. I might give this a long term trial to assess the effect (I am currently on day three)

Edited by Thorsten, 01 January 2011 - 02:05 PM.

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#25 aaron_e

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 04:27 PM

So I'm back. After playing around with Indium for a few weeks this is what I have to report:

First of all Indium is not likely to be very toxic, given the MSDS's I've looked at:

According to:

http://www.chemcas.c.../13464-82-9.asp

LDLO - Lowest Possible Amount Needed To kill a mouse: 1200mg/kg.

The bottle says 1/2 oz is 90 days supply for 150lb.
Thus .5 oz= 14174 mg

14174/90 = 155 mg a day for

150lb = 68kg

155mg/68kg= 2mg/kg.

So you're taking 1/600th of the lowest known lethal dose if you're taking the full dose.

The LDLO for Caffiene by comparison is 192mg/kg



Secondly, the effects. Definitely NOT for everyone, IMHO:

The Good:

Sensory perception becomes more sensitive.
More observant.
More imaginative.
More in the moment.
Reading is more interesting and easier.
More coordinated and in touch with my body.
Skin seems to heal faster.

The Bad:

Causeless anxiety, dread, and fear -- even at low doses. Of course, I am more anxiety prone than the average person.
Vivid complicated nightmares.

The Ugly:

Scaling up to the recommended dose, I get a bit of a return of mild OCD symptoms that I used to have in the past when under extreme stress.
One of my moles started to peel -- which may be a good thing -- or not. This stopped after I stopped taking Indium. It just looked like my body was working hard to try to clean up the mole or something. I just put it down in "ugly" secion because it was just something I thought was sort of bizarre.

So I only take 1/4 the recommended dose once a week now -- mainly just because I'm curious. I make sure to take a lot of tryptophan and other things beneficial to my serotonin system to help ward off the anxiety side effects. The effects seem to linger for a day or two afterwards. Indium is a weird supplement. I would definitely put it in a class all by itself.


i'd be curious to know what the effects on cortisol are. i have low cortisol and sometimes get nightmares. perhaps indium lowers cortisol?
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#26 Thorsten

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 04:37 PM

It works by regulating hormones via the hypothalamus. I'm going to update with my trial as I go along if anyone is interested about the effects.

I can confirm its energizing aspects it gives you a slightly nostalgic type of feeling where you do feel young inside. Things appear more colourful. There are benefits with energy, sleep and mood.

It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea and there is an army of critics but I happen like it, it feels right on my body.

Edited by Thorsten, 01 January 2011 - 04:38 PM.

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#27 aaron_e

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:04 PM

It works by regulating hormones via the hypothalamus.


that is vague to the point of not being useful information. one person's "regulation" could be excessive to another person. if indium is going to be taken seriously we need specifics on what hormones it is effecting with lab tests on multiple volunteers.
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#28 Thorsten

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:18 PM


It works by regulating hormones via the hypothalamus.


that is vague to the point of not being useful information. one person's "regulation" could be excessive to another person. if indium is going to be taken seriously we need specifics on what hormones it is effecting with lab tests on multiple volunteers.


Yeah sorry about that I had a heavy night last night. Here's what I know about it:

It works directly by its interaction on the 'master gland' or the hypophysis (pituitary gland). The hypothesis produces eight hormones (growth hormone, thyroid stimulating hormone, adrenocotropic hormone, prolactin, luteinizing, follicle-stmulating,antidiuretic, oxytocin) which impact metabolism, growth, sleep, sexual activity, emotions and body temperature. This results in its interaction with the hypothalamus as well.

I don't claim to be a neuroscientist so whether cortisol is implicated I wouldn't know. I know I feel a lot calmer on it.

I agree about the need for lab testing on actual volunteers. Perhaps we could try paedophiles? :-D

As an aside I'm not what you mean by the regulation thing. You seem to be confusing yourself? The level of severity with regulation isn't that relevant really - if its balancing its balancing.

Edited by Thorsten, 01 January 2011 - 05:28 PM.

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#29 smithx

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 10:25 AM

There are a number of toxic compounds which have been promoted as tonics.

Radium, for example., and arsenic.

What people failed to realize is that these substances tend to accumulate in the body. I think some people on this thread are also failing to realize this.

So sure, you may be taking 1/600th of the toxic dose per day, but what happens if 20% of that stays in your body? After 10 years or so, it kills you.

IMHO, it's a good idea to stay away from poorly-researched metals.
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#30 aaron_e

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 10:26 PM

As an aside I'm not what you mean by the regulation thing. You seem to be confusing yourself? The level of severity with regulation isn't that relevant really - if its balancing its balancing.


what is regulating for you is not necessarily regulating for everyone. i have tried indium before and it was not exactly beneficial, for me it was overstimulating. if we had more specific data on what it is actually doing then we can better use it where appropriate.

so no, i'm not confusing myself. these broad statements that are made about "balancing" and "regulating" implying indium is a magic cure all that just knows what exactly to do in every situation is simply not accurate. it works for you. good. that doesn't mean it will give the same results to everyone.
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