56 replies to this topic

[Thorsten3]

As an aside I'm not what you mean by the regulation thing. You seem to be confusing yourself? The level of severity with regulation isn't that relevant really - if its balancing its balancing.

what is regulating for you is not necessarily regulating for everyone. i have tried indium before and it was not exactly beneficial, for me it was overstimulating. if we had more specific data on what it is actually doing then we can better use it where appropriate.

so no, i'm not confusing myself. these broad statements that are made about "balancing" and "regulating" implying indium is a magic cure all that just knows what exactly to do in every situation is simply not accurate. it works for you. good. that doesn't mean it will give the same results to everyone.

I think we are at crossed wires here aaron. What I meant was that Indium apparantly works by targeting the hypotheisis/hypothalumus feedback loop. These control many of your hormones so if you are abundant in 'x' or deficient in 'y' it works by smoothing things out. So if person a) has high level of HGH and person b) has too little HGH then even if they are taking the same amount of Indium the compound would work by increasing or decreasing levels of HGH appropriately.

[Thorsten3]

There are a number of toxic compounds which have been promoted as tonics.

Radium, for example., and arsenic.

What people failed to realize is that these substances tend to accumulate in the body. I think some people on this thread are also failing to realize this.

So sure, you may be taking 1/600th of the toxic dose per day, but what happens if 20% of that stays in your body? After 10 years or so, it kills you.

IMHO, it's a good idea to stay away from poorly-researched metals.

I actually agree with you.

I only use this very sporadically. Once evry few months or so. If I notice that I need a boost in endurance or my sleep is terrbile (it has been lately) then I will perhaps take this for a few days. There are a lot of other benefits I could mention but don't worry I am aware of how 'anti-indium' this forum is lol

The way I see it, if you are happy about the studies that were done on rats then cool you might decide to take the risk with this one. The lack of human test subjects though is I very much agree a very significant concern. Perhaps one day this might happen. I am currently reading a book on Indium Sulphate and it is very interesting, entertaining if nothing else.

[adamh]

I decided to give it a try. I saw this thread a year or two ago and wasn't that interested. I reread it and the part about helping sleep caught my eye since I've had a lot of trouble with that lately. I started with 1 drop which is 1 mg per day. On the fifth day i forgot to take it and had great sleep that night. It was like better than in years. Next day I didn't take it again but did not get a repeat of the great sleep. I went back on 1 drop a day and it seemed to help with the sleep but not dramatically. I had a few really good nights sleep but I would not say it was a miracle cure.

When I first took a drop, the taste was kind of nasty. Within an hour I could feel something which I thought was placebo. By the end of the day it was a definite feeling but hard to describe. My mood has been good but not perfect. I'd say it's kind of a stimulant in effect but does not hurt sleeping. I went to 2 drops a day a couple days ago to see what would happen. Should I take some time off from it? Do the benefits continue or what?

I was put off by the "heavy metal" talk. But the ld50 in animals is several grams per kilo of body weight and a year at 2 mg a day is less than 1 gm total. I would expect it to be excreted as fast as it comes in. If not, plants and animals would accumulate it and it would work its way up the food chain. That does not seem to have happened so I'm not worried about toxicity at these doses.

How long has anyone kept using it and at what dosage? Why did you discontinue and for how long? What's a good on/off cycle to use with it or should one stay on it?

[maxwatt]

This is a scam.

Read it and throw away the bottle. Preferably on a toxic waste dump.

[adamh]

Is that the best you got? The article rambles on and notes that indium is in the same part of the periodic table as boron, aluminum and thulium and aluminum isn't good for you. I guess he told me! That reminds me of a preacher that said pot starts with p which rhymes with t which stands for trouble.

It mentions that a researcher apparently found that animals raised with indium supplements had fewer cancers but then rambles on about lead. Lead? I thought we were talking about indium? It's a metal and lead is a metal so i guess case closed.

Yes, I know that large amounts are toxic. I mentioned that in my post. Does anyone have anything solid like personal experience or a link to studies? I haven't heard of minute amounts being toxic or building up in the body. It has a definite effect and people claim they lose weight on it as well as other benefits.

[maxwatt]

Is that the best you got? The article rambles on and notes that indium is in the same part of the periodic table as boron, aluminum and thulium and aluminum isn't good for you. I guess he told me! That reminds me of a preacher that said pot starts with p which rhymes with t which stands for trouble.

It mentions that a researcher apparently found that animals raised with indium supplements had fewer cancers but then rambles on about lead. Lead? I thought we were talking about indium? It's a metal and lead is a metal so i guess case closed.

Yes, I know that large amounts are toxic. I mentioned that in my post. Does anyone have anything solid like personal experience or a link to studies? I haven't heard of minute amounts being toxic or building up in the body. It has a definite effect and people claim they lose weight on it as well as other benefits.

The hype for indium came originated with a particular website run by people selling it. In support of their claims hey cited Dr. Schroeder, as the man who "took the lead out of Gasoline", which is silly and obvious misrepresentation. That's rambling about lead? Bradley at Sciencebase blog debunked their claims pretty thoroughly. The element partakes of no known enzymatic or other activity in the body, and due to its periodic table position would have similarities with the ther elements sharing its position, potentially inducing toxicity by displacement or by similar mechanisms. The reason no one has linked to any supportive studies is they don't exist. At best it's a placebo. If you think that somehow ingesting this magical untested compound will resolve your problems, remember: the pioneers are known by the arrows in their back.

[niner]

Bradley didn't link to or reference anything, but speaking of Schroeder, there's this...

J Nutr. 1976 Feb;106(2):198-203. Free Full Text, WooHoo!
Interactions of trace metals in mouse and rat tissues; zinc, chromium, copper, and manganese with 13 other elements.

Schroeder HA, Nason AP.

Tissues of rats and mice fed a nonessential metal in drinking water for life were analyzed for the essential metals chromium, copper, manganese and zinc. The study involved 505 rats and 843 mice. Livers, lungs, hearts, kidneys and spleens were pooled in groups according to age at death, averaging 5 for rats and 8 for mice, in order to provide adequate sample weight. Copper was significantly higher in livers of rats fed tin, germanium, niobium and zirconium than in controls. Similarly, niobium was associated with deposition of manganese in heart and zinc deposition in liver. Chromium levels were depressed in heart, kidney and spleen by germanium. In mice the greatest effects occurred when indium and rhodium were fed, all four essential trace metals exhibiting raised levels principally in kidney but also in heart and spleen. Chromium levels were raised in all organs but heart when hexavalent chromium was fed. From these data it is apparent that the ingestion of a nonessential metal can enhance the retention of an essential trace metal, perhaps thus avoiding toxicity from the nonessential one.

PMID: 1249646

Here's a tox paper. Nothing really jumped out at me.

[adamh]

remember: the pioneers are known by the arrows in their back.

Yes, I've seen a few flying by already. It's no placebo though the jury is out far as I'm concerned about many of the benefits. My sleep seems better and I'll take any improvement no matter the cause. "doc, give me another bottle of that placebo, it's the only thing that works" I do feel some sensation on it even at 1 mg. I couldn't tell you if it was pleasant or unpleasant. It's a little like the sensation you get on piracetam. You just feel a little differently.

niner, that verifies the part about it helping you absorb trace minerals. Gold is totally non essential but has been used in arthritis treatment. Is that quackery too? Some doctors use it and I haven't heard any big controversy over it even though it's a heavy metal.

In the past 2 weeks I've had 2 of the best nights sleep I've had in years including one that was perhaps the best in 20 years in terms of feeling better the next morning. Unfortunately it doesn't do that every night. Where is the placebo effect when you need it? But I am sleeping a little better and at 10 or 20 cents a day, I will at least keep using it and may buy more.

No one is going to do the studies because there is no way to patent and make a billion dollars off it. It's an orphan mineral or treatment. With no evidence of toxicity at reasonable doses, all we are risking is a little bit of money. It cost me about $24 with shipping and should last a few months or more. They say 3 months at 3 drops a day.

[smithx]

I do not know of any toxic metals that produce positive effects in people.

Do a little research on arsenic. It used to be sold in lozenges and it was highly praised for its stimulant qualities. A lot of people were poisoned by using too much of it, as a tonic.

Here's one mention:
http://en.wikipedia....nic#Medical_use

It was also promoted for use by women, to produce a clear complexion:
http://www.choosingv...oebuck-catalog/

Edited by smithx, 17 December 2011 - 10:58 AM.

[Reid1801]

I tried indium for my insomnia, each night for five days. On the first night, it seemed to make me tired, but maybe I just was tired, and the resulting sleep seemed shallow. On the second morning, I took an additional dose, and felt horrible until mid afternoon. Thereafter, I wasn't convinced that the evening doses were having much effect. It was an interesting experiment, but in a way I am glad it didn't seem to work. I'm not sure that I'd want to take it long term anyway, given that we don't know much about the effects of long term ingestion.

I'm hoping UCM765 will be the answer to insomnia, but it is clearly some years away from release. Sigh!

[Turnbuckle]

As to the safety of indium, this paper. For the longevity of mice, indium was a wash, while for tumors, there was a significant decline--45% fewer tumors overall and fewer malignant tumors. All the other heavy metals produced a higher malignancy rate. See the chart below--

Attached Files

•  Indium.JPG   108.28KB   149 downloads

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 May 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[niner]

Interesting. Palladium significantly extends life in males. Something is weird, though; Chromium VI reduces the number of tumors to about the same extent as Indium, but Chromium VI is a known human carcinogen. A hormetic effect from hexavalent chromium's production of hydroxyl radicals? I don't think I'll start taking chromium VI on this basis... We tend to read too much into single-species results- I'd like to see some of this transition metal work done in other species. Indium is doing something in humans.

[Turnbuckle]

Interesting. Palladium significantly extends life in males. Something is weird, though; Chromium VI reduces the number of tumors to about the same extent as Indium, but Chromium VI is a known human carcinogen. A hormetic effect from hexavalent chromium's production of hydroxyl radicals? I don't think I'll start taking chromium VI on this basis... We tend to read too much into single-species results- I'd like to see some of this transition metal work done in other species. Indium is doing something in humans.

Look at the percentage of tumors that were malignant in the chromium mice. It was twice that for the controls. So the tumor rate was decreased but the rate of dangerous tumors was increased.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 May 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[8bitmore]

As to the safety of indium, this paper. For the longevity of mice, indium was a wash, while for tumors, there was a significant decline--45% fewer tumors overall and fewer malignant tumors. All the other heavy metals produced a higher malignancy rate. See the chart below--

Very good vintage find there, inspired me to dabble a bit and found this 2012 paper that demonstrates differing toxicity in a number of rare metal compounds, including indium, based on their particle size. Might be very important aspect when it comes to potential supplementation and its effects in men and mice alike!

[Turnbuckle]

As to the safety of indium, this paper. For the longevity of mice, indium was a wash, while for tumors, there was a significant decline--45% fewer tumors overall and fewer malignant tumors. All the other heavy metals produced a higher malignancy rate. See the chart below--

Very good vintage find there, inspired me to dabble a bit and found this 2012 paper that demonstrates differing toxicity in a number of rare metal compounds, including indium, based on their particle size. Might be very important aspect when it comes to potential supplementation and its effects in men and mice alike!

Particles won't be relevant to the indium being sold as "The Silver Bullet," which is indium sulfate. The sulfate is highly soluble, and according to the patent, is generally recognized as safe.

Indium sulfate is the only indium compound presently listed as Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS list) by the FDA. The Index Medicus, MEDLINE (National Cancer Institute) indicates that the toxicity for rabbits (Lethal Dose Lowest--LDC, oral) was 1,300 mg/kg a day and rats 1,200 mg/kg. That dosage is about 20,000 times the usage (on a weight basis) of the nutritional supplement of the present invention. Indium appears in food substantially only as a complex trace contaminant which is not usable nutritionally.

http://patft.uspto.g...7&RS=PN/6007847

The patent claims are very poor, essentially non-enforceable.

[8bitmore]

As to the safety of indium, this paper. For the longevity of mice, indium was a wash, while for tumors, there was a significant decline--45% fewer tumors overall and fewer malignant tumors. All the other heavy metals produced a higher malignancy rate. See the chart below--

Very good vintage find there, inspired me to dabble a bit and found this 2012 paper that demonstrates differing toxicity in a number of rare metal compounds, including indium, based on their particle size. Might be very important aspect when it comes to potential supplementation and its effects in men and mice alike!

Particles won't be relevant to the indium being sold as "The Silver Bullet," which is indium sulfate. The sulfate is highly soluble, and according to the patent, is generally recognized as safe.

That's nice.. raises the question as to which form of indium was used the the original mice study you linked, does not seem immediately apparent to me.

[Turnbuckle]

That's nice.. raises the question as to which form of indium was used the the original mice study you linked, does not seem immediately apparent to me.

Indium chloride.

To [the drinking water] was added 5 ppm as metal of scandium oxide dissolved in l N HC1 and diluted, gallium metal dissolved in concentrated HC1 and HNO3 and diluted, rhodium chloride, indium chloride, palladous chloride, yttrium nitrate, or potassium chromate. The mice were given these waters from weaning until natural death.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 May 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[8bitmore]

That's nice.. raises the question as to which form of indium was used the the original mice study you linked, does not seem immediately apparent to me.

Indium chloride.

To [the drinking water] was added 5 ppm as metal of scandium oxide dissolved in l N HC1 and diluted, gallium metal dissolved in concentrated HC1 and HNO3 and diluted, rhodium chloride, indium chloride, palladous chloride, yttrium nitrate, or potassium chromate. The mice were given these waters from weaning until natural death.

Thank you (my search-fu must be severely under the weather for me to miss that). Next question on the list is more personal; have/are you taking the 'Silver Bullet' supplement and if yes, is there anything to report?

[niner]

Interesting. Palladium significantly extends life in males. Something is weird, though; Chromium VI reduces the number of tumors to about the same extent as Indium, but Chromium VI is a known human carcinogen. A hormetic effect from hexavalent chromium's production of hydroxyl radicals? I don't think I'll start taking chromium VI on this basis... We tend to read too much into single-species results- I'd like to see some of this transition metal work done in other species. Indium is doing something in humans.

Look at the percentage of tumors that were malignant in the chromium mice. It was twice that for the controls. So the tumor rate was decreased but the rate of dangerous tumors was increased.

Oh, sorry- I looked at control A. Should have been B.

The % malignant can be driven down just by having more benign tumors. In the case of Chromium VI, it seems to have suppressed benign tumors more than it increased malignant ones. There was, however, a small increase compared to control- 6 malignant tumors for control B, and 8 from Chromium VI. That doesn't exactly make it look like the bad thing it is in humans.

[Turnbuckle]

Interesting. Palladium significantly extends life in males. Something is weird, though; Chromium VI reduces the number of tumors to about the same extent as Indium, but Chromium VI is a known human carcinogen. A hormetic effect from hexavalent chromium's production of hydroxyl radicals? I don't think I'll start taking chromium VI on this basis... We tend to read too much into single-species results- I'd like to see some of this transition metal work done in other species. Indium is doing something in humans.

Look at the percentage of tumors that were malignant in the chromium mice. It was twice that for the controls. So the tumor rate was decreased but the rate of dangerous tumors was increased.

Oh, sorry- I looked at control A. Should have been B.

The % malignant can be driven down just by having more benign tumors. In the case of Chromium VI, it seems to have suppressed benign tumors more than it increased malignant ones. There was, however, a small increase compared to control- 6 malignant tumors for control B, and 8 from Chromium VI. That doesn't exactly make it look like the bad thing it is in humans.

Looks to me they're expressing the malignant tumor percentage as the percentage of all those they sectioned that were malignant, not just those with tumors, so increasing the number of benign tumors would not change the malignant percentage. Unfortunately, not all were sectioned due to decomposition, thus not all malignant tumors appear in the chart, especially for the chromium fed animals.

In addition, there were many gross tumors
which were not sectioned because of
autolysis postmortem: 5 in the control-A
groups, 4 in the scandium, 13 in the gallium,
21 in the rhodium, 9 in the palladium,
10 in the indium, 4 in the control-B,
9 in the yttrium and 36 in the
chromium groups. That some of these
gross tumors may have been malignant is
suggested by the fact that multiple tumors
were found in many mice which were not
sectioned: 14 in the chromium group, 3
in the gallium group, 5 in the yttrium
group, 2 in the rhodium group and 1 in the
control-A, indium and palladium groups.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 19 May 2013 - 12:10 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Next question on the list is more personal; have/are you taking the 'Silver Bullet' supplement and if yes, is there anything to report?

Based on this thread I decided to try it. I've taken it for two days now and have noticed no effects whatsoever.

[abelard lindsay]

I tried this stuff a while back. At first it was kind of good but then it got weird. I personally would throw it in the pile of "results too inconsistent and odd to use long term".

Edited by abelard lindsay, 19 May 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[8bitmore]

I tried this stuff a while back. At first it was kind of good but then it got weird. I personally would throw it in the pile of "results too inconsistent and odd to use long term".

Can you expand on the "weird" just in case in correlates with other people's experience?

[abelard lindsay]

I tried this stuff a while back. At first it was kind of good but then it got weird. I personally would throw it in the pile of "results too inconsistent and odd to use long term".

Can you expand on the "weird" just in case in correlates with other people's experience?

It was a few years ago, so I don't remember the whole experience in great detail. It made me feel very anxious and made my days feel annoyingly dreamy. It also had a bit of a hangover.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 19 May 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[8bitmore]

Can you expand on the "weird" just in case in correlates with other people's experience?

It was a few years ago, so I don't remember the whole experience in great detail. It made me feel very anxious and made my days feel annoyingly dreamy. It also had a bit of a hangover.

Thanks, appreciated; especially since I was personally wanting to give it a try but anxiety is one thing I can definitely do without, will look out for that effects if I do take the plunge into exotic metal eating sub-genre of life.

[waliwaliwali]

I came across this forum/thread on a google search.

 

I have had a really strange reaction to indium. I last used it in April 2015, and I feel as though it has altered and changed my personality permanently. 

 

I mainly used it for its purported sleep enhancing capabilities. I used it for the space of around 2 weeks. 

 

Unfortunately, I haven't been the same since. I have developed a horrific anxiety/ocd symptom that doesn't seem to diminish no matter what I do. 

 

I have this horrible crippling anxiety and ocd that developed after I used indium. I only took around 5/6 drops a day. on the back of the bottle it had stated to take 10 a day, so I wasnt taking the recommended dose. 

 

but this anxiety has become a living nightmare, and the ocd coupled with it is even worse. 

 

the first few days i used it, i felt really calm and serene and almost like I was in a dream state. but then i started to notice that when a stressful situation presented itself, my mind started to blow things way out of proportion. this wasnt like me. 

 

then the ocd started to develop, especially about me being single!? I have developed an EXTREME amount of anxiety, and ive become obsessed with people and trying to find a partner. I joined a dating website, and went on a few dates, and when some dates didnt work out, i would lament and ponder and become extremely anxious as to why it didnt, and then the negative self talk and self doubt crept in. 

 

this isnt who i am. or who i was. i dont know where this has come from. i dont know whether the indium has released a surge of pent up emotions over the years, but whatever it has done, i cant be dealing with it in my life right now. I have so many other important issues to be dealing with, but the ocd is getting the better of me. 

 

the anxiety is just as horrible. its like my brain has changed or my thought process has changed. 

 

i am currently trying a heavy metal detox (chlorella, modified citrus pectin, nac, coriander, zeolite), as it feels like i have been poisoned. 

 

can anyone shed light on this? 

 

keep in mind, before my indium use, i had zero levels of anxiety and no ocd at all. 

 

indium was the only supplement i introduced into my diet, as a friend recommended it. yet they take it daily and they are fine?

 

i do not know what is going on

[sativa]

Every morning, for at least 8 months, I have been taking a drop of the Silver Bullet Indiumease product (Indium Sulphate) sublingually, after breakfast.

Whilst I have probably now become accustomed to it's beneficial effects, at the beginning I did notice increased overall "bodily performance", notably cognition, energy, vitality and awareness.

I see no reason to increase the dose as suggested on the bottle.

My "daily stack" includes vitamins and minerals. I do not take any pharmaceuticals or nootropics.

I will stop taking my daily drop for an indefinite amount of time and see what happens.

All in all, my personal experience with Indium Sulphate has been positive.

A site I found with some information about indium's [supposed] biological properties.

It is believed that indium may provide aid to the hypothalamus and pituitary glands. These two master hormone producers have the job of maintaining optimal output of hormones for the body. Once this stasis is achieved, a great many other hormone-producers become stimulated, causing a domino effect and helping retard aging and various health problems.

https://blissreturne...-of-our-bodies/

Dr. Henry Schroeder, author of "The Trace Elements and Man", found in his early studies that Indium supplementation increased the utilisation of trace elements by whopping 142%.

http://www.resources...r=cms&id_lang=1

Edited by sativa, 13 February 2016 - 10:25 AM.