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pycnogenol vs grapeseed

pycnogenol grapeseed

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54 replies to this topic

#1 ajnast4r

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 11 May 2009 - 06:17 PM


pycnogenol is useful for asthma & allergies @ 1mg/lb/daily(without exceeding 200mg)... does the same hold true for grapeseed? pycnogenol is just so expensive.

Edited by ajnast4r, 11 May 2009 - 06:17 PM.

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#2 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 11 May 2009 - 07:35 PM

Grapeseed should have the same benefits, although since the OPCs aren't identical, I suppose it's possible pynogenol has some asthma/allergies benefits on its own.

Grapeseed & allergies: (Failed)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11926620

I also recall reading a grapeseed/asthma study that failed (forget the link).

Although subjective and a trial of one, I didn't notice any improvements for asthma or allergies using either. Could have been time of year though, or some other factor. Or the fact my allergies are just too bad to be helped by either.

As for grapeseed, we'd need to find a study somewhere showing it decreasing leukotrienes. I think there are some mast cell/grapeseed studies out there somewhere, although perhaps I just read that in an article instead of a study.

I'm interested if the type of grapeseed may matter. I've been considering switching to Masquellier's, as it has some studies and a long safety record. It may have a different OPC profile compared to other grapeseed extracts (at least according to the companies that sell Masquellier's OPCs). Could be worth trying to just see if I notice any allergy or asthma benefits over a Polyphenolics extract.
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#3 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:11 AM

yea, everything i read showed that grapeseed wasnt effective at managing allergies/asthma... but pycnogenol is. pycnogenol is only 65-75% OPC, so perhaps its another complonent that is lowering leukotrienes. i ended up picking up some pycnogenol to try before resorting to singulair, which seems to have a ton of side effects.

Edited by ajnast4r, 15 May 2009 - 12:16 AM.

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#4 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:25 AM

yea, everything i read showed that grapeseed wasnt effective at managing allergies/asthma... but pycnogenol is. pycnogenol is only 65-75% OPC, so perhaps its another complonent that is lowering leukotrienes. i ended up picking up some pycnogenol to try before resorting to singulair.

Please post back if you find it effective, as I'm curious. I used the same product as above, but for only 2 months -- I didn't feel like going bankrupt taking it forever. So maybe it needs to be taken for several months to be effective.

What I did find somewhat effective maybe was a combination of Ester C + grapeseed, which I took at different times of the day. I say maybe, as I didn't really notice a major improvement at the time, but my allergies did seem slightly improved.

And for the last several weeks I haven't taken any Ester C, and noticed my allergies have been a little bit worse. It could be a complete coincidence, or due to the bioflavanoids in Ester C (which is the main reason I tried it, as its one of the few supplement sources without grapefruit).

I think it's worth trying again, and seeing if my nose/breathing improves at all.

Singulair should help too, although I couldn't take it very long due to being allergic to it (bad sign when you are allergic to your allergy medicine).
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#5 adamh Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:31 AM

I take both of them just to be safe. I also take resveratrol and astragalus. I switched over recently to pine bark extract rather than pycnogenol which is a name brand product and therefore extra expensive. Pine bark extract from the maritime pine should be the same as extract with the name on it. Why pay double or triple for the same stuff?
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#6 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:33 AM

I take both of them just to be safe. I also take resveratrol and astragalus. I switched over recently to pine bark extract rather than pycnogenol which is a name brand product and therefore extra expensive. Pine bark extract from the maritime pine should be the same as extract with the name on it. Why pay double or triple for the same stuff?

I'd worry about the extraction methods used, solvents and possible residue in a non-patented pine bark extract. And depending on manufacturer, if there was even pine bark in the capsule.
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#7 spaceistheplace Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento

Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:17 AM

allergies suck!!!
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#8 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 15 May 2009 - 04:33 AM

What type of allergies do you have? I don't get runny nose or anything, Its constricting my breathing... Allergy induced asthma. Pycnogenol was tested for asthma, not rhinitis.


yea, everything i read showed that grapeseed wasnt effective at managing allergies/asthma... but pycnogenol is. pycnogenol is only 65-75% OPC, so perhaps its another complonent that is lowering leukotrienes. i ended up picking up some pycnogenol to try before resorting to singulair.

Please post back if you find it effective, as I'm curious. I used the same product as above, but for only 2 months -- I didn't feel like going bankrupt taking it forever. So maybe it needs to be taken for several months to be effective.

What I did find somewhat effective maybe was a combination of Ester C + grapeseed, which I took at different times of the day. I say maybe, as I didn't really notice a major improvement at the time, but my allergies did seem slightly improved.

And for the last several weeks I haven't taken any Ester C, and noticed my allergies have been a little bit worse. It could be a complete coincidence, or due to the bioflavanoids in Ester C (which is the main reason I tried it, as its one of the few supplement sources without grapefruit).

I think it's worth trying again, and seeing if my nose/breathing improves at all.

Singulair should help too, although I couldn't take it very long due to being allergic to it (bad sign when you are allergic to your allergy medicine).


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#9 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 15 May 2009 - 05:34 AM

I have both nasal allergies and asthma. Allergic to... well, just about anything outdoors, I guess. And even though Pycnogenol was tested for asthma, the leukotriene reduction and effects on mast cells should improve overall allergies too (ideally).

Singulair works that way, as well. Even though it's mostly marketed for asthma, it can also help allergies.
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#10 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 21 May 2009 - 06:37 PM

i've only been using the pycnogenol about a week, but its made a market difference in my breathing.
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#11 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 21 May 2009 - 06:44 PM

What dosage are you using? 200mg/daily?

And did you previously try grapeseed? I'm interested if you used both, as then you can clearly say pynogenol provided benefits grapeseed didn't.

Pynogneol didn't help me, or if it did, it wasn't enough for me to notice. I have some other health issues going on, so perhaps that may be why, or maybe I just need higher amounts of leukotriene reduction to notice anything.
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#12 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 21 May 2009 - 07:00 PM

What dosage are you using? 200mg/daily?

And did you previously try grapeseed? I'm interested if you used both, as then you can clearly say pynogenol provided benefits grapeseed didn't.

Pynogneol didn't help me, or if it did, it wasn't enough for me to notice. I have some other health issues going on, so perhaps that may be why, or maybe I just need higher amounts of leukotriene reduction to notice anything.


200mg daily yes, and no i haven't used grapeseed for this issue...according to the studies i read, significant leukotriene reduction didnt happen until 4 weeks with the most significant reductions at the 3 month mark. it COULD simply be that the pollen has lessened, or the humidity is easing my allergies... but it would be very coincidental for some other factor to kick in 2 days after i start using pycnogenol, which is where i really felt the difference.

i also believe it improved my mood and energy levels... possibly from a reduction in inflammation?
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#13 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 21 May 2009 - 07:13 PM

Aww... you would have made a good guinea pig. Maybe one day try the grapeseed as an experiment...

And yeah, can't be leukotriene related then. Maybe mast cells/histamine?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12557250

Or it is coincidental. The mood and energy improvment... no idea there. Only benefit I remember reading about pynogenol and brains related to ADD. Reduction in inflammation could make sense, by it improving your breathing, which would improve your mood and energy.

Edited by nameless, 21 May 2009 - 07:13 PM.

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#14 FunkOdyssey Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 21 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

I really really want to get to the bottom of the grapeseed vs. pycnogenol thing, whether they are basically equivalent or if pycnogenol is somehow better.
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#15 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 21 May 2009 - 08:13 PM

I really really want to get to the bottom of the grapeseed vs. pycnogenol thing, whether they are basically equivalent or if pycnogenol is somehow better.

I was under the impression grapeseed was better, as it contains more gallic esters and generally a higher proanthocyanidins percentage. I guess if there is a difference, we'd need to figure out what the 10% difference consists of (pynogenol 85% vs grapeseed 95% OPCs).

By the way (although semi-unrelated) is there any relationship between asthma and Lyme? Or other tickly diseases? Maybe by sort of messing up the immune system, it can worsen asthma?

Edited by nameless, 21 May 2009 - 08:16 PM.

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#16 FunkOdyssey Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 21 May 2009 - 08:55 PM

Yes, although I haven't mastered the details of the relationship, it is referred to vaguely as "immune dysregulation"
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#17 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 21 May 2009 - 11:24 PM

Thanks for the Lyme/asthma info.

I found the following grape seed & pine bark info, and thought it was sort of interesting:

http://ntp.niehs.nih...ds_PineBark.pdf

From a chemical breakdown standpoint, the article states:

Chemical Composition: Standardized grape seed extracts are reported to contain 92-95%
OPCs (Wholehealthmd.com, 2000). The second highest concentration of OPCs, 80-85%, is
found in pine bark (Wellness Web, 2000).

Although the chemical composition has not been elucidated completely, the main
constituents of grape seed and pine bark extracts are phenolic compounds, broadly divided
into monomers (catechin, epicatechin, and taxifolin) and condensed flavonoids of various
chain lengths that release anthocyanins when heated in acidic conditions. Pine bark extract
also contains phenolic acids (such as caffeic, ferulic, and p-hydroxybenzoic acids) as minor
constituents and glycosylation products, i.e., glucopyranosyl derivatives of either flavanols
or phenolic acids as minute constituents (Anon.,1998; Packer et al., 1999).
The cocktail of flavanoids varies from one species to another. The pine possesses a high
level of monomers of the catechin type. The grape contains more oligomers, and the
predominant monomer is epicatechin (Healthysource, 1999)

So.... which of the differences could account for histamine/leukotriene or inflammation benefits in one, while not the other? Any chemist/biology people here?
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#18 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 21 May 2009 - 11:47 PM

I really really want to get to the bottom of the grapeseed vs. pycnogenol thing, whether they are basically equivalent or if pycnogenol is somehow better.


i do believe pycnogenol is fairly different.. a read a study on grapeseed where it failed to help asthmatics. pycnogenol seems to do a lot of things that grapeseed doesnt. also pycnogenol is only ~65% OPC, so we have another 35% phenols, organic acids, other things etc that arent in the grapeseed.
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#19 adamh Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 22 May 2009 - 05:47 PM

Why does everyone assume that pcynogenol is better than generic pine bark extract? Is it a matter of faith? Does paying more guarantee that you get your moneys worth?
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#20 FunkOdyssey Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 22 May 2009 - 05:53 PM

I think its because all of (or the vast majority) the positive studies for pine bark extract were conducted specifically with pycnogenol, and people want the product with clinical evidence supporting it. So as far as matters of faith are involved, people do NOT want to "take it on faith" that the generic pine bark extract, which has not been proven, will produce the same results.
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#21 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 22 May 2009 - 06:00 PM

Why does everyone assume that pcynogenol is better than generic pine bark extract? Is it a matter of faith? Does paying more guarantee that you get your moneys worth?


exactly what funk said... paying more guarantees you're getting the same substance, with the same composition, as what has been used in the clinical studies. you dont have to take pycnogenol on faith, it has the science backing it up... you would be taking the 'pine bark extact' on faith, hoping that it would function the same way as pycnogenol.

also the composition of pycnogenol is different in standardization percentages and pine species compared to 'pine bark extracts' which tend to be std to much higher OPC levels. pycnogenol is much more complex than just being a source of OPC. also OPC is just not a single molecule... its a variety of molecules of different lengths and compositions. i believe horphage is very careful about what chain lengths and molecular weights make up pycnogenol.

Edited by ajnast4r, 22 May 2009 - 06:06 PM.

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#22 lacura Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 23 May 2009 - 12:10 PM

i taking the grapeseed extract 100mg and don't notice any difference for ADD. i wondering if be any better trying the pycnogenol and if it is effective at the common 30mg dose.

Edited by lacura, 23 May 2009 - 12:16 PM.

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#23 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 24 May 2009 - 12:46 AM

I contacted the manufacturer of Enzogenol (New Zealand pine bark) regarding this topic and received some interesting replies. I considered asking Horphag instead, but they can be slow to respond if contacting their scientist/support people. I thought maybe others would find it interesting, and was given permission to post the conversation here.

And there are differences between pine barks regarding OPC content. So generic pine barks may be less effective. For asthma/allergy benefits and differences between pine bark and grapeseed, Taxifolin or Piceatannol (found in pine bark) could play a role, or hydrolysable tannins from grapeseed causing a pro-oxidant effect could be a reason.

Here are the questions I asked:

Q: Can you tell me what the difference is between Enzogenol and Pycnogenol (besides obvious pine bark sourcing differences)?

A: Regarding Enzogenol v’s Pycnogenol, there are differences in both the pine tree type as well as the extraction process. The crude pinus radiata extract does not need as much fractionation to obtain the high antioxidant fractions compared to pinus pinaster.This is a species specific difference.Thus pycnogenol undergoes a chemical fractionation process, by contrast we use a mechanical fractionation process which means we do not discard as much from the bark. This results in Enzogenol having a slightly more diverse range of compounds compared to Pycnogenol and a higher in-vitro antioxidant activity.However there are no side by side in-vivo comparisons to say which is better. In fact both extracts are very good.

Q: And what are the OPC differences between Enzogenol and Grape Seed extract?

A: Grape seed extract ( which we also have manufactured ) has a much more variable raw material source due to different grape varieties, seasonal effects and storage of the seeds prior to processing.It’s therefore more difficult to make the extract consistent on a batch to batch basis. There is a lot of variation in quality between producers.GSE contains hydrolysable tannins as well as condensed tannins ( OPC’s)It’s possible that the hydrolysable tannins cause a pro-oxidant effect in higher doses which may explain the negative results obtained in some clinical trials using GSE.By contrast the pine bark extracts seem to show greater benefits with greater dose. We do not have a full breakdown of theOPC’s- we do not have the reference standards necessary to analyze this in detail.The OPC’s are not absorbed directly, they are first broken down by gut microflora and it is the metabolites that are actually the active compounds.There are also non-OPC actives in both Pycnogenol & Enzogenol.

Health Benefits Pine Bark v’s Grape Seed: Yes there are differences between the different procyanidin rich extracts available in the marketplace but at the moment there is no science to elucidate the reason for these differences. It’s is possible that some compounds in the various extracts become pro-oxidants above a certain dose level .

A study by Kirin (the Japanese beverage company) is the only study I can find which actually does a comparison between a range of high quality procyanidin rich ,commercially available extracts. They used a mouse auto-immune disease model in the study.

In this study they compared Pine Bark extract v’s Jatoba v’s Grape Seed v’s Cranberry v’s Applephenon v’s Cocoa v’s green tea v’s cinnamon. These are all refined extracts and the pine bark extract used was pycnogenol.

In order of effectiveness Pycnogenol came out top and was the only one to completely suppress the disease. Then cranberry , cinnamon, &Jatoba were next with approx equal effects. Then Grape Seed with approx 50% suppression.Interestingly the apple skin extract,cocoa extract and green tea were worse than the controls, and were actually proinflammatory. The Japanese researchers observed that the amount of disease suppression was related to the degree of polymerization of the procyanidins.The higher the better.


Q: I was not aware that hydrosoluble tannins could cause a pro-oxidant affect. I'll assume these do not exist in Enzogenol/Pynogenol?

A: The tannins present in Enzo/Pycno are condensed tannins. All grapeseed will contain gallic acid esters- this is a good compound in low doses but there is some evidence around to show that it can become a prooxidant.

Megagold is one of the best GSE products.Just because a compound can become a pro-oxidant it does not mean it is automatically “bad”. It may mean that it is not good for ameliorating asthma/allergies, but on the otherhand it could be good for fighting cancer.The bottom line is that we do not know what combination is best.

The original idea of taking both PBE &GSE came from Masquellier.His rationale was the that GSE contains compounds not present in PBE (such as Gallic acid esters) and PBE contains compounds not present in GSE ( such as taxifolin & piceatannol-a resveratrol analogue).However a more logical combination would be PBE plus Green Tea since the green tea also has the gallic esters, but also has the more powerful EGCG that is not present in GSE.

Q: Taxifolin perhaps could explain the asthma benefits in pine bark --
http://www.sciencedi...58c388db77bacec
Or maybe even Piceatannol too?
http://www.sciencedi...fe13a849201f8a4
Pine bark only contains a small percentage of either (I think), but it's one of the differentiating factors between grape seen and pine bark extracts.

A: Actually Pycnogenol is quite high in Taxifolin- I think it’s around 3%- (but don’t quote me on that) which is about twice as much as Enzogenol.On the other hand Enzogenol contains the Piceatannol which is not present in Pycnogenol.

Another factor to consider is that these various OPC extracts have varying ratios of catechin to epicatechin. Some recent research shows that catechin has quite a good prebiotic effect whereas epicatechin does not.The catechin appears to selectively stimulate growth of good bacteria & inhibit growth of bad bacteria in your gut.The OPC’s in PBE are primarily composed of catechin and at the other end of the spectrum is coca OPCs which are mostly epicatechin.Since some studies have shown positive benefits for pro/pre- biotics fo asthma & allergies, this could explain some of the positive benefits of pycnogenol compared to grape seed ( which has higher levels of epicatechin)

Edited by nameless, 24 May 2009 - 12:49 AM.

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#24 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 24 May 2009 - 05:26 AM

...



nice... pretty much confirms that pycnogenol > *
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#25 hullcrush Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 24 May 2009 - 08:41 PM

Um... I'm just posting a new study. Sorry if it's been posted before... about pycno and IgE mechanism. Doesn't really say much, but it's convinced me to try it.

I'm also posting the rebuttal to the grapeseed extract trial:

blahblahblah....

Grapeseed extract, in addition to be being used as a hand-cleaning material,5 has also been reported to have antioxidant activity.6 The center of attention of this antioxidant activity is on the red grapeseed extract that contains proanthocyanidins. These and other antioxidants are being used as nutritional supplements by many health-conscious individuals. The lay literature and the Internet continue to perpetuate the perception that natural products such as herbs and other “dietary supplements” tend to be safer than conventional medicines. Even the placement of these items in pharmacy and on supermarket shelves prompts the idea that these items are safe. This has been fueled by the103rd Congress passage of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (Pub. Law 103-417. 108 Stat. 4325. 1994) that deregulated the industry by limiting the role of the Food and Drug Administration.

In vivo studies in animal models and clinical reports have indeed shown that grapeseed extract generated beneficial effects in the chemoprevention of cellular damage, ameliorated chemotherapy-induced toxic effects of anthracyclines,7 decreased tissue damage in acute and chronic pancreatitis,8 provided some protection against acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity,9 and had some cardioprotective effect with red wine consumption.10 Further investigations into the biochemical and physiologic changes that occur after a diet of grapeseed extract include the inhibition of proapoptotic transcription factor and gene, JNK-1 and c-Jun,10 interference with endonuclease activity,11 antioxidant effect,12 and inhibition of the microsomal drug metabolizing enzymes (CYP-4502E1).13

Grapeseed oil is also know for its high content of n-6 fatty acids. In a diet formulation studied in animal models, grapeseed extract was associated with increased ability to acclimate to cold environments.14

Grapeseed extract and grapeseed oil were implicated in the toxic-oil syndrome that occurred in epidemic form in Spain in 1981.15 In a followup animal study, grapeseed oil only appeared to be a carrier of the toxic agent, but did not in itself cause the syndrome.16 It has also been used as a control in aromatherapy trials for alopecia areata.17

The pilot study by Bernstein et al 18 as reported in this issue of the Annals is a placebo-controlled study that gave a practical duration of time for the initial effects of a major antioxidant to take a prophylactic effect, ie, allowing 2 to 4 weeks before the initiation of the pollen season for the antioxidant properties to become active over an additional 8 weeks of treatment at a specific dose of 100 mg twice daily. However, it is not clear from any of the literature what dose should have been used. The authors strengthen their “negative” study by using softer subjective measures as their primary endpoint, ie, a quality of life instrument, symptoms, and antihistamine use. If a positive result was to be found, it would have been seen with these less sensitive subjective measures. However, examination of more objective tests are justified to determine whether grapeseed extract antioxidant effect has any effect on the inflammatory response in seasonal allergic rhinitis. Thus, additional scientific studies are clearly required to support any indications for the use of grapeseed extract in allergic disorders.

It is important that publication of scientific studies with negative as well as positive outcomes be added to the ever growing medical literature exploring the complementary and alternative medicine interventions.19 The benefit to our patients is clear, by replacing myth and prejudice with scientific facts about complementary and alternative medicine in the treatment of patients with allergies.


Kind of a crackhead. I have no idea what he's talking about.

Edited by hullcrush, 24 May 2009 - 08:43 PM.

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#26 brotherx Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Europe

Posted 10 June 2009 - 12:19 AM

I have been using Pycnogenol the last 2 weeks on a dosage range between 160mg - 300mg against my seasonal allergy (end of May - middle of July).
I have pretty strong reactions with rye, etc. with the usual symptoms like a runny nose, itching eyes, skin reactions.
With Pycnogenol I have no signs of allergic symptoms or reactions at all! This is pretty much unbelievable for me - but it works.
So I've you have asthma or an allergy - you should try Pycnogenol!
And no - I am not related in any form to the company which produces Pycnogenol ;-)

I have attached the following paper: "Pycnogenol® Inhibits Immunoglobulin E-Mediated Allergic Response in Mast Cells".


Cheers

Alex

pycnogenol is useful for asthma & allergies @ 1mg/lb/daily(without exceeding 200mg)... does the same hold true for grapeseed? pycnogenol is just so expensive.

Attached Files


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#27 nameless Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:51 PM

I have been using Pycnogenol the last 2 weeks on a dosage range between 160mg - 300mg against my seasonal allergy (end of May - middle of July).
I have pretty strong reactions with rye, etc. with the usual symptoms like a runny nose, itching eyes, skin reactions.
With Pycnogenol I have no signs of allergic symptoms or reactions at all! This is pretty much unbelievable for me - but it works.
So I've you have asthma or an allergy - you should try Pycnogenol!

Thanks for the article. Do you happen to have any asthma too, or just allergies? Although an allergy improvement alone is impressive.

I'm going to do my own trial soon. The Enzogenol people supposedly are going to give me a sample to try first -- it's free, so I figure why not try it. If no effect there, going to start on Pycnogenol again. I am hoping my past lack of benefit was from too low a dose (generally took 100mg/day).

Have you noticed any differences between your dosing range as to allergy benefits? Higher = better, or no difference? I wonder if an IGE blood test could be used to gauge potential benefits/effects, or would pycnogenol simply reduct mast cell activity, yet keep IGE numbers the same? Hmm... anyway, if it did in fact lower IGE via blood testing, it may be an easy way to tell it was reducing allergies.
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#28 brotherx Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Europe

Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:13 PM

I usually just had the allergy.
But I started to develop - about 5 years ago - the very first signs of asthma - and this only in summer during my allergy time.
During this time, my breathing sounds a bit different, a slightly different sound from the lungs (only in the morning and in the evening).
After end of July it usually disappears.
This summer time - since taking Pycnogenol - it is totally different - absolutely no allergies and no special breathing sound!

A friend of mind - who has asthma - started taking Pycnogenol a couple of days ago - and he will check his values with a peak flow meter - I get back to you on this one when I have news.

My experience is that the effects are dose dependent - and this seems to be underlined by the study I have posted.
Take a look on page 3, on the lower left - the table "Inhibitory effect of Pycnogenol® on anti-DNP IgEmediated passive cutaneous anaphylaxis in rats" also shows that the inhibitory effect is dose depended.
It might be a good idea to start high - maybe around 240mg - and give it week - and check if you get results. But I assume you will get good results!

I was riding today 2 hours along rye fields (June is here the month with the most pollen activity for rye) - and I had zero allergic reaction. Usually it wouldn't be possible to be near rye fields during this time of the year.
This is far beyond placebo!

I keep my thumbs pressed for your trial!

Cheers

I have been using Pycnogenol the last 2 weeks on a dosage range between 160mg - 300mg against my seasonal allergy (end of May - middle of July).
I have pretty strong reactions with rye, etc. with the usual symptoms like a runny nose, itching eyes, skin reactions.
With Pycnogenol I have no signs of allergic symptoms or reactions at all! This is pretty much unbelievable for me - but it works.
So I've you have asthma or an allergy - you should try Pycnogenol!

Thanks for the article. Do you happen to have any asthma too, or just allergies? Although an allergy improvement alone is impressive.


Alex

I'm going to do my own trial soon. The Enzogenol people supposedly are going to give me a sample to try first -- it's free, so I figure why not try it. If no effect there, going to start on Pycnogenol again. I am hoping my past lack of benefit was from too low a dose (generally took 100mg/day).

Have you noticed any differences between your dosing range as to allergy benefits? Higher = better, or no difference? I wonder if an IGE blood test could be used to gauge potential benefits/effects, or would pycnogenol simply reduct mast cell activity, yet keep IGE numbers the same? Hmm... anyway, if it did in fact lower IGE via blood testing, it may be an easy way to tell it was reducing allergies.


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#29 ajnast4r Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

  • Location:Sacramento, California

Posted 11 June 2009 - 05:23 PM

maybe around 240mg


none of the studies ever went above 200mg total daily intake


and give it week -


i did see improvement in my asthma within 2 weeks, but keep in mind that in these studies **, significant reduction of leukotrienes wasnt seen until the 2nd month. so it may be prudent to actually plan out your pycnogenol dosing and start taking it 2 months before allergy season.

inhibition of histamine release from mast cells is dose dependant, -59% @ 80ug/ml & -72% @ 160ug/ml. im not sure what this translated to dose wise, but id be interested to know if anyone has any ideas.


**
Grimm T et al. Inhibition of NF-kB activation and MMP-9 secretion by plasma of human volunteers after ingestion of maritime
pine bark extract (Pycnogenol®). J Inflamm 3: 1-15, 2006.
Hosseini S et al. Pycnogenol® in the management of asthma. Journal of Medicinal Food, 4: 201-209, 2001.
Lau BHS et al. Pycnogenol® as an adjunct in the management of childhood asthma. J Asthma 41: 825-832, 2004.
Rohdewald P. A review of the French maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol®), an herbal medication with a diverse pharmacology.
Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther 40(4): 158-168, 2002.
Sharma SC et al. Pycnogenol® inhibits the release of histamine from mast cells. Phythother. Res. 17: 66-69, 2003.

Edited by ajnast4r, 11 June 2009 - 05:27 PM.

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#30 TianZi Re: pycnogenol vs grapeseed

Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:02 PM

I use Isotonix OPC-3, a powder that combines pine bark extract and grape seed (and a few other things--bilberry, red wine, and citrus extract bioflavonoids). The best choice might be not choosing between the two!
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