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pycnogenol vs grapeseed

pycnogenol grapeseed

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#31 nameless

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 06:12 PM

Isotonix OPC-3 is incredibly overpriced for what you get, and the pycnogenol dose isn't enough to really benefit asthma.

I can say that 200mg grapeseed seemingly has done nothing (or at least nothing I notice) for my allergies + asthma. You'd probably be better off just buying grapeseed + pycnogenol supplements separately (if you want both), as compared to OPC-3 -- save some money.

Edited by nameless, 11 June 2009 - 06:15 PM.

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#32 TianZi

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:45 AM

I don't have any known allergies or asthma, and that's not why I take Isotonix; rather for its other (supposed) broad spectrum health benefits.

Each capful contains 125 mg of bioflavonoids, w/ 75 mg of that being OPC's. I take 2 capfuls twice daily (right after my resveratrol powder). What dose (assuming a 150 lb. average human body weight) has been found to have the optimal effects from a general health perspective?
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#33 nameless

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:52 PM

Dosage-wise, for general health... I suppose somewhere around 100mg daily would be considered a decent amount. It will vary based on your general health and what diseases you are hoping to prevent.

According to the label, you are getting 25mg grapeseed, 25 mg pycnogenol, 25mg red wine extract, 25mg Bilberry, and 25mg citrus bioflavanoids. And the website I visited listed it at $70 for a 90 serving supply.

So you know, you can put together your own OPC-3 type product via separate supplements a lot cheaper than what you probably are paying now. And with higher doses too.

Edited by nameless, 12 June 2009 - 05:53 PM.

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#34 adamh

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 10:17 PM

But nameless, it's a name brand and that makes it worth whatever they ask.
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#35 nameless

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 10:21 PM

But nameless, it's a name brand and that makes it worth whatever they ask.

Huh?
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#36 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:05 AM

He was attempting to compare the OPC-3 product to pycnogenol, however pycnogenol has over 230 clinical studies and they are not remotely in the same league.
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#37 nameless

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:22 AM

Actually, I now remember now what he is referring to... kinda. I think he was the one promoting generic pine bark in this thread --

http://www.imminst.o...neric pine bark

But comparing generic supplements to generic drugs doesn't really make much sense... anyway...

I just wanted to point out to the Isotonix person that there are cheaper alternatives, for the same exact thing. The 25mg Pycnogenol in Opc-3 can be purchased from Swanson's, or Healthy Origins, much cheaper per dosing, and it is the same patented ingredient. Swanson's also carries Meganatural grape seed too -- super cheap.

Edited by nameless, 13 June 2009 - 12:25 AM.

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#38 brotherx

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:41 PM

There are several studies which went to 300mg/day and above - see google scholar:

- http://scholar.googl...a...G=Suche&lr=
- http://scholar.googl...a...G=Suche&lr=

An example of 300mg/day used for Anti-inflammatory effects can be found here :
Antiinflammatory effects and pharmakokinetic of a standardized pine bark extract" - http://www.opus-baye...exte/2005/1487/

The pdf. (Pycnogenol® inhibits the release of histamine from mast cells) I have posted a few days ago demonstrates that the effects are dose dependent. Another study shows that the effects of Pycnogenol is related to body weight - so the more you weigh - the more Pycnogenol you need.
Several studies indicate that Pycnogenol is non-toxic and do no induce negative side effects even in high doses.

I personally prefer to take a high dose of Pycnogenol instead of taking common anti-allergic remedies due to the low risk profile. My personal experience is that when I take a high dose of Pycnogenol at one (for example 120mg-160mg) - allergic symptoms disappear completely within 60 minutes.

Cheers

Alex

maybe around 240mg


none of the studies ever went above 200mg total daily intake


and give it week -


i did see improvement in my asthma within 2 weeks, but keep in mind that in these studies **, significant reduction of leukotrienes wasnt seen until the 2nd month. so it may be prudent to actually plan out your pycnogenol dosing and start taking it 2 months before allergy season.

inhibition of histamine release from mast cells is dose dependant, -59% @ 80ug/ml & -72% @ 160ug/ml. im not sure what this translated to dose wise, but id be interested to know if anyone has any ideas.


**
Grimm T et al. Inhibition of NF-kB activation and MMP-9 secretion by plasma of human volunteers after ingestion of maritime
pine bark extract (Pycnogenol®). J Inflamm 3: 1-15, 2006.
Hosseini S et al. Pycnogenol® in the management of asthma. Journal of Medicinal Food, 4: 201-209, 2001.
Lau BHS et al. Pycnogenol® as an adjunct in the management of childhood asthma. J Asthma 41: 825-832, 2004.
Rohdewald P. A review of the French maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol®), an herbal medication with a diverse pharmacology.
Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther 40(4): 158-168, 2002.
Sharma SC et al. Pycnogenol® inhibits the release of histamine from mast cells. Phythother. Res. 17: 66-69, 2003.


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#39 TianZi

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 04:56 AM

He was attempting to compare the OPC-3 product to pycnogenol, however pycnogenol has over 230 clinical studies and they are not remotely in the same league.


According to the label, Isotonix does contain pycnogenol. The terms "pine bark extract" and pycnogenol are used interchangeably in the product description. I deduce from that the extract is taken from the French Pine.

Look, I receive my Isontonix for free, and I have a crate filled with bottles of the stuff; my girlfriend's aunt buys it in bulk and gives us a box every so often. I spend a small fortune on my other supplements, and so see no need to pay more to buy separate sources of grape seed and pine bark extract. 4 caps daily seems to put me at 100 mg daily for both grape seed and pycnogenol, although this may not be an optimal dose. However, I don't regard this is one of the most important supplements I take, just a nice ancillary supplement that may provide significant benefits at a negligible risk factor.

If there is any reason I should be wary of Isotonix as a brand, please let me know. I don't think there is. However, I notice people in this thread and elsewhere here promoting ALCOR, and I definitely would not buy any ALCOR product, since the last independent study I recall of any of their products (about 2 years ago?) found one of their supplements (resveratrol, I think) not to have anywhere close to the content per dose claimed on the label.
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#40 nameless

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 05:08 AM

Nothing wrong with the brand that I am aware of. And if it's free, go for it. Can't beat that price. :|w

And yep, it does appear to contain Pycnogenol, just at a somewhat low dose. I didn't mean to infer it wouldn't work, or you were wrong to take it (sorry if it came across that way). I just wanted to point out the pricing/dosing issue, but since it's free for you, that isn't an issue. That assumes they are labeling correctly. I think most official Pycnogenol supplements have little Horphag labels on the bottle. If it's there somewhere, you are fine.

Edited by nameless, 14 June 2009 - 05:11 AM.

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#41 TianZi

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 05:10 AM

Nothing wrong with the brand that I am aware of. And if it's free, go for it. Can't beat that price. :|w

And yep, it does appear to contain Pycnogenol, just at a somewhat low dose. I didn't mean to infer it wouldn't work, or you were wrong to take it (sorry if it came across that way). I just wanted to point out the pricing/dosing issue, but since it's free for you, that isn't an issue.


Not at all. Thank you for your advice. Those comments were directed primarily at FunkOdyssey.
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#42 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 07:16 AM

If there is any reason I should be wary of Isotonix as a brand, please let me know. I don't think there is. However, I notice people in this thread and elsewhere here promoting ALCOR, and I definitely would not buy any ALCOR product, since the last independent study I recall of any of their products (about 2 years ago?) found one of their supplements (resveratrol, I think) not to have anywhere close to the content per dose claimed on the label.


Alcor is a cryonics organization, I think you are confused.
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#43 TianZi

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 05:44 AM

If there is any reason I should be wary of Isotonix as a brand, please let me know. I don't think there is. However, I notice people in this thread and elsewhere here promoting ALCOR, and I definitely would not buy any ALCOR product, since the last independent study I recall of any of their products (about 2 years ago?) found one of their supplements (resveratrol, I think) not to have anywhere close to the content per dose claimed on the label.


Alcor is a cryonics organization, I think you are confused.


Hmm, I think you are right. It seems I'm confusing it with a life extension organization that directly markets fairly expensive anti-aging supplements, whose name I have apparently mislaid in my mind somewhere...
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#44 TianZi

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 07:42 AM

If there is any reason I should be wary of Isotonix as a brand, please let me know. I don't think there is. However, I notice people in this thread and elsewhere here promoting ALCOR, and I definitely would not buy any ALCOR product, since the last independent study I recall of any of their products (about 2 years ago?) found one of their supplements (resveratrol, I think) not to have anywhere close to the content per dose claimed on the label.


Alcor is a cryonics organization, I think you are confused.


Hmm, I think you are right. It seems I'm confusing it with a life extension organization that directly markets fairly expensive anti-aging supplements, whose name I have apparently mislaid in my mind somewhere...


Ah, I somehow confused LEF (Life Extension Foundation) with ALCOR, mistakenly believing the two were affiliated. Sigh, note to self: increase dose of Gingko.

My apologies to ALCOR!
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#45 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:50 PM

Does anyone have an educated opinion as to whether pycnogenol is better taken with food or on an empty stomach (or if it does not matter either way)?
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#46 nameless

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:23 PM

Does anyone have an educated opinion as to whether pycnogenol is better taken with food or on an empty stomach (or if it does not matter either way)?

Good question, and I don't know... but am now curious. So I sent off an email to Horphag, as if anyone knows, I figure they should. If they respond, I'll post here with answer.
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#47 ajnast4r

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:02 PM

Does anyone have an educated opinion as to whether pycnogenol is better taken with food or on an empty stomach (or if it does not matter either way)?


i think it as with most water soluble pigments, it would be absorbed better on an empty stomach. i'm not sure HOW much better... when i was using it i took 100mg am on an empty stomach and 100mg pm with food and still got the effects.

Edited by ajnast4r, 20 October 2009 - 09:09 PM.

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#48 nameless

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:09 PM

i think it as with most water soluble pigments, it would be absorbed better on an empty stomach. i'm not sure HOW much better... when i was using it i took 10mg am on an empty stomach and 100mg pm with food and still got the effects.

Are you still using it and getting a benefit? The past tense sounds like you dropped it.
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#49 ajnast4r

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:13 PM

i think it as with most water soluble pigments, it would be absorbed better on an empty stomach. i'm not sure HOW much better... when i was using it i took 10mg am on an empty stomach and 100mg pm with food and still got the effects.

Are you still using it and getting a benefit? The past tense sounds like you dropped it.


i had allergic asthma, allergy season is over... although ive recently started to have some symptoms again.

i've been using moducare to try to switch back to a th1 dominant immune response... it seems to be working pretty well. i think th2 dominance is probably at the root of allergies.

Edited by ajnast4r, 20 October 2009 - 09:14 PM.

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#50 nameless

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:17 PM

i think it as with most water soluble pigments, it would be absorbed better on an empty stomach. i'm not sure HOW much better... when i was using it i took 10mg am on an empty stomach and 100mg pm with food and still got the effects.

Are you still using it and getting a benefit? The past tense sounds like you dropped it.


i had allergic asthma, allergy season is over... although ive recently started to have some symptoms again.

i've been using moducare to try to switch back to a th1 dominant immune response... it seems to be working pretty well. i think th2 dominance is probably at the root of allergies.

Interesting. I looked at moducare briefly... I think it is pine sterols? I assumed pycnogenol would be similar enough to have the same benefits.

I have year round allergies, so sort of forget the allergy season ends. Although fall (hayfever), spring and summer I am at my worst.
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#51 ajnast4r

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:38 PM

sterols are fats, pycnogenol is mostly water soluble plant pigments called anthocyanidins
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#52 nameless

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:59 PM

How long before you noticed a benefit from Moducare, and how would you rate it in comparison to pycnogenol? I realize allergy season ended so you quit taking it, but if it was working, why switch to Moducare? I suppose price could be one reason, pycnogenol isn't exactly cheap.

I wonder if any of those same sterols are in pycnogenol though... I know it's primarily made up of OPCs, but not entirely. I think about 35% of pycnogenol is made up of 'something else'.

Edited by nameless, 20 October 2009 - 10:00 PM.

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#53 ajnast4r

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:08 PM

How long before you noticed a benefit from Moducare, and how would you rate it in comparison to pycnogenol? I realize allergy season ended so you quit taking it, but if it was working, why switch to Moducare? I suppose price could be one reason, pycnogenol isn't exactly cheap.

I wonder if any of those same sterols are in pycnogenol though... I know it's primarily made up of OPCs, but not entirely. I think about 35% of pycnogenol is made up of 'something else'.


its hard to say... when i was using pycnogenol i had asthma, tightness in the chest etc etc. it worked great for that. now i have itchyness, not so much tightness. the moducare seemed to kick in after about a week but its hard to say if its that or just the allergen being gone. after 4 weeks im going to take 2 weeks off to see if the symptoms come back.

i switched to moducare because the effects take effect within weeks vs pycnogenols effects happening within months.
also i've become more interested in cellular vs humeral immunity (th1/th2) balance and its implications in allergies and immune system over reactivity in general. i never in my life had allergies until a recent bout with mono. pycnogenol as far as i know, does not effect immune balance.

its unlikely the sterols are in pycnogenol in significant amounts, the other 35% is likely ash. moducare is an specific ratio of sterols to sterol glucosides(sterolins).

Edited by ajnast4r, 20 October 2009 - 10:11 PM.

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#54 nameless

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 06:50 AM

I wonder if pycnogenol could modulate the immune system too. Found this on grapeseed, for instance --

Grape Seed Extract Activates Th1 Cells In Vitro
http://www.ncbi.nlm....report=abstract

I never really thought of the Th1/Th2 issue before in much detail. Also, ran across this site with some info on supplements, which could possibly influence Th1/Th2 balance --

http://www.digitalna...nd/C104673.html

Lists IP6, which I have been considering trying. I read some reports that people have used it for improving allergies.

Have you ever had IGE testing, or Immunocap tests done? It'd be interesting to see if Moducare reduced your IGE numbers.
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#55 nameless

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:50 PM

Does anyone have an educated opinion as to whether pycnogenol is better taken with food or on an empty stomach (or if it does not matter either way)?

Good question, and I don't know... but am now curious. So I sent off an email to Horphag, as if anyone knows, I figure they should. If they respond, I'll post here with answer.

I just received this response today from Horphag:

Pycnogenol has been tested in studies with human volunteers to trace the absorption. These studies do not suggest that it makes a relevant difference whether Pycnogenol is taken on an empty stomach or with/after meals.

We usually suggest to take Pycnogenol with meals or after meals as the astringency of the procyanidins in Pycnogenol may cause stomach discomfort in some particularly sensitive individuals.
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#56 chipdouglas

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 05:42 PM

Have any one of you ever noticed restlessness or increased agitation taking pycnogenol ? I've been researching this topic, but to no avail. 


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#57 krillin

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 07:17 PM

Have any one of you ever noticed restlessness or increased agitation taking pycnogenol ? I've been researching this topic, but to no avail. 

 

Pycnogenol is a beta agonist. PMID: 17078108


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