95 replies to this topic

[Centurion]

Ok guys, as you may have noticed in the prostatitis thread I unscrupulously hijacked - I took some cipro recently and got my ass kicked. Tiredness, sore tendons, general feeling of apathy, mental tiredness, the lot, my usual aggressive mental approach at work seems to have subsided into a general sense of detachment or meh, hell my typing speed has even slowed down!

I have decided to throw myself together a supplement list before all of this gets ontop of me. Right now it consists of

My Protein Mega Cissus - 6 caps daily
Milk of magnesia - two 5ml servings daily
Berocca multivitamin - twice daily
Whey protein - 30g twice daily

Considering adding

Myprotein mega green tea - 2x daily
loose leaf green tea - as many cups as I can stomach!

Criticism, additions, haikus welcome

Ed

[Matt]

I think you should add

Ortho Eyes - N-acetyl-L-carnosine from AOR (rational for this one is that lots of people tend to get eye damage (blurred vision, flashes, floaters, poor night vision, glare problems, poor adjusting from light to dark)
Lutein (suppoor the eye?)
Vitamin C - 2000mg at least
Large doses of Probiotics
Silicon (usually in some multi's)
Sublingual Methylcobalamin (b12)
Omega 3
Lots of Blueberries!

Edited by Matt, 02 June 2009 - 09:19 PM.

[niner]

Silicon (usually in some multi's)

If silicon is important here, then I would not rely on the probably-lousy form found in a multi. Get some BioSil. It is choline-stabilized silicic acid, and has published research behind it. I started using this as part of my osteopenia regimen (which has been extraordinarily successful; I'll report on this at a later date) and I've since seen improvements in skin, hair, joints, and tendons. I use 5 or six drops/day of the liquid form, which is pretty cheap on a per day basis.

[VespeneGas]

If silicon is important here, then I would not rely on the probably-lousy form found in a multi. Get some BioSil. It is choline-stabilized silicic acid, and has published research behind it. I started using this as part of my osteopenia regimen (which has been extraordinarily successful; I'll report on this at a later date) and I've since seen improvements in skin, hair, joints, and tendons. I use 5 or six drops/day of the liquid form, which is pretty cheap on a per day basis.

I would be very interested to read your extended commentary on your experience with BioSil. As someone with a lot of connective tissue problems stemming from cipro toxicity, I'm always looking for supplements/drugs which can help - especially on the tendon front, on which there is a great paucity of real solutions.

Also, @Matt, have there been anecdotal reports of floxies benefiting from silicon supplementation?

[Matt]

A lot of them seem to be scared to take supplements... and think that supplements cause their flare ups, so they tend to avoid them, and I think I recomended silicon to them a while back but no one bothered to try it. Everytime I thought that a supplement caused an increase in symptoms I would just continue with that supplement, and no surprise to me that everytime the symptoms would pass anyway. The feedback I'm getting from floxies is that if they get any hint of increase symptoms from any supplement they usually stop it without actually seeing if the symptoms would pass within a few days. I think I'm only one of a very small handful that took quite a number of supplements after floxing, and I seem to have very good recovery.

[Matt]

Heres a site with benefits of bromelaine. I haven't tried it myself but you should be careful if you're taking any other meds because blocks some major P450 enzymes. This one is going to be totally anecdotal but I felt a lot better starting from January when I started drinking about 50 ounces of green smoothies every day, just see my blog on that. It might be that it was a coincidence, but lots of good things happened.

anyway back to bromelaine.

http://bouldernatura...-pineapple.html

"the most significant property of Bromelain is it's ability to reduce
inflammation, pain, swelling and speed healing from injuries, trauma and
surgery(2,3,7,8,9,11,13,14,15,16,19,22,24,25,26,28,34,36).

Some examples of it's effectiveness include the following.

* In studies of Bromelain's anti-inflammatory power it has been found as or
more effective and much better tolerated by patients than the following drugs;
Naproxen (Aleve), Piroxicam (Feldene), Ketoprofen (Oruvail), Indomethacin
(Indocin), Etodolac (Lodine), Diclofenac (Voltaren)(34,36).
* In a 1995 German study(14) of people with strains and torn ligaments
researchers found that bromelain caused a significant reduction in swelling,
tenderness, and pain, both at rest and during movement.
* Supplementation of bromelain reduced the average number of days after
surgery for complete disappearance of pain from 3.5 to 1.5, and disappearance of
inflammation from 6.9 to 2.0 days, as compared with controls receiving no
bromelain(24).
* A clinical study of boxers with bruises on the face and hematomas of the
orbits, lips, ears, chest and arms reported complete disappearance for 80.6% of
those taking Bromelain in 4 days vs. only 13.8% of those in the placebo
group(20)."

[Centurion]

Heres a site with benefits of bromelaine. I haven't tried it myself but you should be careful if you're taking any other meds because blocks some major P450 enzymes. This one is going to be totally anecdotal but I felt a lot better starting from January when I started drinking about 50 ounces of green smoothies every day, just see my blog on that. It might be that it was a coincidence, but lots of good things happened.

anyway back to bromelaine.

http://bouldernatura...-pineapple.html

"the most significant property of Bromelain is it's ability to reduce
inflammation, pain, swelling and speed healing from injuries, trauma and
surgery(2,3,7,8,9,11,13,14,15,16,19,22,24,25,26,28,34,36).

Some examples of it's effectiveness include the following.

* In studies of Bromelain's anti-inflammatory power it has been found as or
more effective and much better tolerated by patients than the following drugs;
Naproxen (Aleve), Piroxicam (Feldene), Ketoprofen (Oruvail), Indomethacin
(Indocin), Etodolac (Lodine), Diclofenac (Voltaren)(34,36).
* In a 1995 German study(14) of people with strains and torn ligaments
researchers found that bromelain caused a significant reduction in swelling,
tenderness, and pain, both at rest and during movement.
* Supplementation of bromelain reduced the average number of days after
surgery for complete disappearance of pain from 3.5 to 1.5, and disappearance of
inflammation from 6.9 to 2.0 days, as compared with controls receiving no
bromelain(24).
* A clinical study of boxers with bruises on the face and hematomas of the
orbits, lips, ears, chest and arms reported complete disappearance for 80.6% of
those taking Bromelain in 4 days vs. only 13.8% of those in the placebo
group(20)."

Im all over the bromelain. Whats the recommended dose / max safe dose?

[Centurion]

Went to the health store during my lunch break - newly amended list

My Protein Mega Cissus - 6 caps daily
Magnesium oxide - 500mg
Berocca multivitamin - once daily
Whey protein - 30g twice daily
Boron - 3mg
Acidophillus - 250mg
Bromelain - 1000mg
Vitamin C - 3000mg

Going to start working on protecting the nervous system in light of recent symptoms - hand shaking, interfering with typing speed!

[lynx]

Went to the health store during my lunch break - newly amended list

My Protein Mega Cissus - 6 caps daily
Magnesium oxide - 500mg
Berocca multivitamin - once daily
Whey protein - 30g twice daily
Boron - 3mg
Acidophillus - 250mg
Bromelain - 1000mg
Vitamin C - 3000mg

Going to start working on protecting the nervous system in light of recent symptoms - hand shaking, interfering with typing speed!

Blueberries!!!

[Centurion]

Went to the health store during my lunch break - newly amended list

My Protein Mega Cissus - 6 caps daily
Magnesium oxide - 500mg
Berocca multivitamin - once daily
Whey protein - 30g twice daily
Boron - 3mg
Acidophillus - 250mg
Bromelain - 1000mg
Vitamin C - 3000mg

Going to start working on protecting the nervous system in light of recent symptoms - hand shaking, interfering with typing speed!

Blueberries!!!

Been considering getting a juicer when my next pay comes in - to start making juices in the morning with blueberries etc. Matt, what kind of fruit and veg have you been using?
Will def be getting some blueberries

[Matt]

Protection from nerve damage is the biggest issue in my opinon. Remember that chemotherapy, radiation and certain toxic compounds can cause neuropathy that doesn't show up until weeks, months or even years later. I don't see why quinolones are much different. And indeed, people report that neuropathy not showing up until months later... The large majority of symptoms people get from being floxed I think is related to neuropathy so good choice in going after this. I had a mild case of neuropathy, including autonomic so I think I did something alright, but it cycled for over a year. Meaning each flare up would be shorter and less severe than the previous. See all the symptoms here http://www.patient.c...owdoc/40000795/ Almost all floxed people report at least 60% of more of these symptoms. You won't know what kind of reaction you've had until about 6 months either.

[Matt]

Well although I don't juice, I make smoothies using a blender. Keeps the fibre in that way.

http://matts-cr.blog...-ate-today.html

http://matts-cr.blog...i-love-raw.html

If you were to make smoothies I wouldnt recommend using kale at first, starting with spinach is a really good idea cos it blends well, very easy for fruit to ovepower the taste and its very smooth. A very simple smoothie to try out would be something like 100g Banana, 100g Apple, 100g blueberries, 100g Spinach. with about 200,300,400 ml water depending on how thick you want it. Too water is not that good so try get it just right. If I make bigger smoothies sometimes I end up with aroudn 800ml and drink 400ml in morning and 400ml after work in the evening. The thing about blending spinach it makes some comounds far more bioavailable. Such as beta carotene and lutein, Ithink around 90% absorption.

[Centurion]

Protection from nerve damage is the biggest issue in my opinon. Remember that chemotherapy, radiation and certain toxic compounds can cause neuropathy that doesn't show up until weeks, months or even years later. I don't see why quinolones are much different. And indeed, people report that neuropathy not showing up until months later... The large majority of symptoms people get from being floxed I think is related to neuropathy so good choice in going after this. I had a mild case of neuropathy, including autonomic so I think I did something alright, but it cycled for over a year. Meaning each flare up would be shorter and less severe than the previous. See all the symptoms here http://www.patient.c...owdoc/40000795/ Almost all floxed people report at least 60% of more of these symptoms. You won't know what kind of reaction you've had until about 6 months either.

That's quite a scary outlook Matt! I was hoping to be rid of everything by then (or sooner!)
Do you know of any other supplements I could use to knock the neuropathy on the head?

As regards green tea, are you not concerned about the high fluoride content? I could go out today and buy a loose leaf teapot and a few hundred grams of green tea if I thought it would be beneficial in fighting this.

[Matt]

I was just drinking 5-10 cups of green tea a day. Though if you have a caffeine problem? then this is not possible, unless its decaf. I couldn't tolerate caffeine for 4 months. I'll look into what i recommended before, its been so long now. There must be others here that know quite a few supps for neuropathy. I had to use decaf at first...

Edited by Matt, 03 June 2009 - 03:46 PM.

[Centurion]

Went out tonight, second date with a girl I met in a bar a few weeks ago.
Other than the shaking of the hands, once ive had a few drinks nothing really seemed to be noticeable. Although on the walk home I definitely felt like it was hard to stand up straight. Now very conscious of potential impacts on my social / love life of this stuff, I remember in the past feeling indestructable while drunk!

[Centurion]

Noticing definite CNS symptoms. Fatigue, anxiety, the shakes (exacerbated greatly by attempted fine motor movement) General feeling of being unsure of myself, in addition to a rubbery feeling in my legs, not unlike how you might feel if you were extremely nervous about something.

Seriously hoping this is the extent of my CNS symptoms and I do not have worse to come - and that theyll lessen! typing on the keyboard has been seriously affected, as has my social interaction (already)

Considering: http://www.aidsmap.c...2BAFD0745E5.asp
http://www.asco.org/...abstractID=2807

ALCAR to increase NGF. Camomile tea if I can find any proof it actually helps calm the nerves

Edited by Centurion, 05 June 2009 - 04:25 PM.

[VespeneGas]

http://het.sagepub.c...tract/21/12/635

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1803142

If I knew what would help with the neurological stuff, I'd be taking it. My sleep is still f***ed.

Good luck man, I hope things don't deteriorate, and that yours is a milder reaction than matt's or mine.

[Matt]

the tiredness and insomnia started to get better after about 4 months, but things were very slow from there. I also had the shaking, but mine was like full body tremors that lasted all day every day for a few weeks. When I lay down at night it felt like I was moving all over the place, like the bed was shaking. Freaky stuff

Edited by Matt, 05 June 2009 - 08:19 PM.

[Centurion]

ok first of all, I love you guys, thanks for the support. My shakes are definitely milder, but my legs do feel very rubbery and I feel an overall unsteadiness of the body. For a guy who used to feel rock solid at 5ft 7 and 180lbs thats a pretty bad feeling. Im really hoping though with some supps and dietary change itll settle down.

Got a really nice girl interested in me at the minute, keeping my distance and meeting as little as possible because of how im feeling right now - for now the whole hard to get thing is working in my favour, lets hope I recover some strength before its time for bedroom acrobatics lol. If the nerves affect me in *that* way I'm reaching for a rope no kiddin!

Matt I took a leaf from your green leafy book and made a fruit smoothie just now. Damn is it expensive tho to buy decent food, £15 for a supply that will probably last the weekend. I had bananas, apples, cashew nuts (i love them!) peach and blueberries. It wasnt what I would call smooth, infact rather lumpy, but I got it into me anyway, id imagine under normal circumstances id be feeling quite good right about now!

Incidentally, an update. Unbeknownst to me, my course of metronidazole also included a 2 weeks course of ofloxacin, although I noticed zero tendon issues during that course, it wasnt until the cipro I felt problems. Is it possible im fine on ofloxacin but react to cipro, or has one perhaps activated the other? Either way my hopes of "small dose = brief symptoms are somewhat dashed"

Edited by Centurion, 05 June 2009 - 09:12 PM.

[Centurion]

Something just occurred to me. Ever since tendon issues showed up, ive been megadosing on cissus (mega cissus myprotein.co.uk) to the order of 10-15 caps a day, to fight the damage. I wonder if I am actually experiencing anxiety, tremors etc due to cipro or if large doses of cissus has that effect? Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part ;-)

[k10]

Iodine to detox the flouride poisoning from cipro.

[Centurion]

Will do.
http://www.curezone....asp?i=1174424#i I know this reeks of potential web quackery, but may check it out also.

[Matt]

It's nothing to do with fluoride The 1st generation of quinolones without fluoride did the same damage... I'm not sure where the idea that is was the fluoride came from =/

Edited by Matt, 06 June 2009 - 12:48 PM.

[JoL]

Iodine to detox the flouride poisoning from cipro.

It's impossible to get fluoride poisoning from cipro.

[Centurion]

Wish I knew that before I spent £10 on iodine tablets, though I'm sure they'll be useful in some way nonetheless. Fatigue today was quite marked, despite having slept from midnight to 12 noon. I have absolutely no idea how I'm going to hold down a 9-5 job, a social life and find time for a relationship with all this going on. All from an antibiotic, this is crazy!

[lynx]

Something just occurred to me. Ever since tendon issues showed up, ive been megadosing on cissus (mega cissus myprotein.co.uk) to the order of 10-15 caps a day, to fight the damage. I wonder if I am actually experiencing anxiety, tremors etc due to cipro or if large doses of cissus has that effect? Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part ;-)

Cissus could be the culprit. Cissus messes with cortisol levels and all the symptoms you are listing could easily come from LOW cortisol.

Good luck.

[Centurion]

Something just occurred to me. Ever since tendon issues showed up, ive been megadosing on cissus (mega cissus myprotein.co.uk) to the order of 10-15 caps a day, to fight the damage. I wonder if I am actually experiencing anxiety, tremors etc due to cipro or if large doses of cissus has that effect? Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part ;-)

Cissus could be the culprit. Cissus messes with cortisol levels and all the symptoms you are listing could easily come from LOW cortisol.

Good luck.

Lynx thank you. I had read this before but failed to make the connection. I have now dropped cissus completely, though will keep an eye on the tendons. It may be a mix of tendon symptoms and anxiety due to cipro and fatigue due to low cortisol - heres hoping anyway. The one thing that raises doubt in my mind is that surely I wouldnt have the anxiety symptoms if my cortisol was extremely low. Time will tell!

[Matt]

I haven't got access to the paper so just going by the abstract here. I think theres definitely a way for you to mitigate some of the damage from cipro, I hope you succeed better than I.

Nutraceuticals synergistically promote proliferation of human stem cells.
Bickford PC, Tan J, Shytle RD, Sanberg CD, El-Badri N, Sanberg PR.

Center of Excellence for Aging and Brain Repair, University of South Florida
College of Medicine, Tampa, FL 33612, USA. pbickfor@...

A viable alternative to stem cell transplantation is to design approaches that
stimulate endogenous stem cells to promote healing and regenerative medicine.
Many natural compounds have been shown to promote healing; however, the effects
of these compounds on stem cells have not been investigated. We report here the
effects of several natural compounds on the proliferation of human bone marrow
and human CD34(+) and CD133(+) cells. A dose-related effect of blueberry, green
tea, catechin, carnosine, and vitamin D(3) was observed on proliferation with
human bone marrow as compared with human granulocyte-macrophage
colony-stimulating factor (hGM-CSF). We further show that combinations of
nutrients produce a synergistic effect to promote proliferation of human
hematopoietic progenitors. This demonstrates that nutrients can act to promote
healing via an interaction with stem cell populations.

Edited by Matt, 06 June 2009 - 05:50 PM.

[Centurion]

Oh yeah! time to break out those blueberries! Cheers Matt.

Re: Cissus I have found this: http://www.mindandmu...php/t22629.html

Ive been taking between 8-15 of MP 50% ketosterone mega cissus a day all week, perhaps I have low cortisol. Now I shall proceed to make a pineapple blueberry smoothie

[Centurion]

Off cissus one day now, no real improvement in symptoms. Slept for a full 12 hours and still remain fatigued. Not certain whether or not this is something that would take time to fix.
Out into the sun for now to attempt to increase cortisol. Wary of using other methods such as caffeine etc, as I am in a rather sticky situation, if the cissus is causing my weakness and tremors (due to adrenal fatigue) higher cortisol is good, if this is all due to cipro induced neuropathy, higher cortisol is very, very bad.