95 replies to this topic

[Centurion]

VespeneGas,

How did your fatigue symptoms progress, Matt's 3 month doesn't look too bad on the surface, although considering I've already gotten a whole bunch of slating performance reviews at work from just a week of symptoms, I'm not sure I can last that long!

Matt was your reaction severe, is 3 months typical or rather favourable?

Ed

[Kutta]

VespeneGas,

How did your fatigue symptoms progress, Matt's 3 month doesn't look too bad on the surface, although considering I've already gotten a whole bunch of slating performance reviews at work from just a week of symptoms, I'm not sure I can last that long!

Matt was your reaction severe, is 3 months typical or rather favourable?

Ed

3 months is indeed favorable. Most floxed people don't get away with 3 months. Matt's reaction was not quite severe; e.g. he said he did not have chronic pains. A severe reaction would mean a high dose (1+gramm) and multi week cipro therapy and multiple years of severe ADR's, and possibly some lifetime debiliations (lifetime in the classic sense of course).

[Centurion]

VespeneGas,

How did your fatigue symptoms progress, Matt's 3 month doesn't look too bad on the surface, although considering I've already gotten a whole bunch of slating performance reviews at work from just a week of symptoms, I'm not sure I can last that long!

Matt was your reaction severe, is 3 months typical or rather favourable?

Ed

3 months is indeed favorable. Most floxed people don't get away with 3 months. Matt's reaction was not quite severe; e.g. he said he did not have chronic pains. A severe reaction would mean a high dose (1+gramm) and multi week cipro therapy and multiple years of severe ADR's, and possibly some lifetime debiliations (lifetime in the classic sense of course).

I am not noticing extreme pain either, my tendon pain has also settled considerably. I do continue to experience however, tremors and anxiety and extreme fatigue, theres are pretty much my sole symptoms at present. That said however new ones could well arise, I have only been experiencing symptoms for less than a week now.

I had a 2 week course of oflaxacin, 250mg twice daily in conjunction with metronidazole. I noticed no symptoms during or even after this course. About 3 weeks afterward I was put on a course of ciprofloxacin. I took this for 3 days before noticing extreme tendon swelling - ceased taking this medication. No other symptoms arised until around 2 weeks later, when the fatigue began to kick in. This is my current situation. I know it may be futile to second guess things and try to place myself this early, but right now my entire life has been turned upside down and I feel the need to try to act.

Ed

Edited by Centurion, 08 June 2009 - 08:15 AM.

[Matt]

I took metronidazole a few months before cipro and developed mild tingling in hands and feet from that also. Only that lasted 2 weeks at moderate level and then very mild and went away completely within 2 months. It was nothing in comparison to cipro though. Maybe it set me up for the cipro reaction because of already existing damage to the nerves. It's interesting you say that you took that antibiotic because we have a few people that also took it prior to their reaction. I had already taken a course of metronidazole a year or so before that, back in 2006 I think because of a dental infection, and had no problems the first time.

Edited by Matt, 08 June 2009 - 11:28 AM.

[Centurion]

I took metronidazole a few months before cipro and developed mild tingling in hands and feet from that also. Only that lasted 2 weeks at moderate level and then very mild and went away completely within 2 months. It was nothing in comparison to cipro though. Maybe it set me up for the cipro reaction because of already existing damage to the nerves. It's interesting you say that you took that antibiotic because we have a few people that also took it prior to their reaction. I had already taken a course of metronidazole a year or so before that, back in 2006 I think because of a dental infection, and had no problems the first time.

That is interesting. The metronidazole did induce extreme fatigue in me (or perhaps that was the ofloxacin with which it is stacked)
There is a small possibility I havent been floxed at all. Have you any idea how long it would take for the adrenals to recover upon cessation of intake, were my cortisol levels battered by megadosing cissus?

I dont want to jinx myself here but I have noticed quite a reduction in fatigue today, though far from optimal. Perhaps im just having a good day. Here's hoping my symptoms are short lived. Considering whey protein / NAC in addition to my alpha lipoic acid to increase gluthianone levels. Ive heard good things about infusions of this stuff also, though dont know how I would find a practitioner.

[Centurion]

Something just occurred to me. Ever since tendon issues showed up, ive been megadosing on cissus (mega cissus myprotein.co.uk) to the order of 10-15 caps a day, to fight the damage. I wonder if I am actually experiencing anxiety, tremors etc due to cipro or if large doses of cissus has that effect? Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part ;-)

Cissus could be the culprit. Cissus messes with cortisol levels and all the symptoms you are listing could easily come from LOW cortisol.

Good luck.

Im beginning to think that at the very least what you have mentioned is contributing to my symptoms.
I counted from the bottle and from around saturday the 30th to friday the 12th I had taken roughly 55 myprotein mega cissus capsules standardized at 400mg ketosterone each. Fingers crossed as I stay off these I will steadily improve.

[lynx]

I am glad that dropping cissus seems to be helping. Have you been able to exercise at all? I know that fatigue <> exercise, but it will definitely kickstart all your hormonal systems.

[Centurion]

I am glad that dropping cissus seems to be helping. Have you been able to exercise at all? I know that fatigue <> exercise, but it will definitely kickstart all your hormonal systems.

Not just yet, I want to wait and see how the tendons fare first. Girlfriend is dropping by later this week, thatll kickstart the hormonal systems!
It would seem I probably had low cortisol, though I do have some of the symptoms of floxing, mild shakes, muscle pains etc. I believe these should hopefully be short lived however.

[VespeneGas]

At the three month mark, my symptoms were more or less comparable to how they are now:

-Sleep is worthless, wake to soon, wake multiple times per night, exhausted all day

-Mild tinnitus present whenever ambient background noise is low

-Joint and tendon pain mostly dormant until I do something (e.g. walk, peel carrots, etc) when it gets progressively worse until I know I can't continue without rupturing one (usually about a quarter mile of walking for the achilles's)

-Can no longer tolerate caffeine or metabolize it properly, it makes me anxious and keeps me up all night. Used to drink coffee/tea all day.

-Don't feel qualified to say if depression is pain related (previous back injury giving me a lot of grief because I can't exercise), sleep related, life related, or cipro related. A lot of floxies report depression/dysphoria/anhedonia, which is frequently confounded by the above factors too

I took cipro for 10 days for my "prostatitis" (turned out to be interstitial cystitis) and developed some mild-moderate tendon problems, but my doctor hadn't told me about side effects, so I assumed I was overtraining. I then took 4 more pills (500 mg) a month later, when severe tinnitus and tendon pain caused me to discontinue. Who knows how many more pills I would have taken had I not read about cipro toxicity on this forum.

Good luck, man. I hope your reaction is mild and transient. I feel like mine is here to stay.

[Centurion]

At the three month mark, my symptoms were more or less comparable to how they are now:

-Sleep is worthless, wake to soon, wake multiple times per night, exhausted all day

-Mild tinnitus present whenever ambient background noise is low

-Joint and tendon pain mostly dormant until I do something (e.g. walk, peel carrots, etc) when it gets progressively worse until I know I can't continue without rupturing one (usually about a quarter mile of walking for the achilles's)

-Can no longer tolerate caffeine or metabolize it properly, it makes me anxious and keeps me up all night. Used to drink coffee/tea all day.

-Don't feel qualified to say if depression is pain related (previous back injury giving me a lot of grief because I can't exercise), sleep related, life related, or cipro related. A lot of floxies report depression/dysphoria/anhedonia, which is frequently confounded by the above factors too

I took cipro for 10 days for my "prostatitis" (turned out to be interstitial cystitis) and developed some mild-moderate tendon problems, but my doctor hadn't told me about side effects, so I assumed I was overtraining. I then took 4 more pills (500 mg) a month later, when severe tinnitus and tendon pain caused me to discontinue. Who knows how many more pills I would have taken had I not read about cipro toxicity on this forum.

Good luck, man. I hope your reaction is mild and transient. I feel like mine is here to stay.

Vespene, that is really awful :-( Have you caused any tendon ruptures yet? Have you tried cissus for the tendons?

I have been off cissus for a few days now and my fatigue has improved, however im going to need to resume at a small dose as I am developing tendon soreness in my elbows knees and ankles.

[VespeneGas]

Vespene, that is really awful :-( Have you caused any tendon ruptures yet? Have you tried cissus for the tendons?

I have been off cissus for a few days now and my fatigue has improved, however im going to need to resume at a small dose as I am developing tendon soreness in my elbows knees and ankles.

Yeah, I've got some cissus lying around, I didn't notice any immediate effects, and couldn't afford to buy enough to megadose for a while and see what happened, so I just kinda gave up. If you get good results I might try again more seriously.

No tendon ruptures yet! I don't need painful/expensive physical therapy. I'm careful

FWIW no performance issues in the bedroom, so don't worry on that front.

[Centurion]

Vespene, that is really awful :-( Have you caused any tendon ruptures yet? Have you tried cissus for the tendons?

I have been off cissus for a few days now and my fatigue has improved, however im going to need to resume at a small dose as I am developing tendon soreness in my elbows knees and ankles.

Yeah, I've got some cissus lying around, I didn't notice any immediate effects, and couldn't afford to buy enough to megadose for a while and see what happened, so I just kinda gave up. If you get good results I might try again more seriously.

No tendon ruptures yet! I don't need painful/expensive physical therapy. I'm careful

FWIW no performance issues in the bedroom, so don't worry on that front.

Surely anything that reduces physical endurance causes bedroom problems though? For the record Im a 90 minute man (2 or 3 times over in the night if im keen) I cant see 180 minutes of aerobic exercise being easy on the tendons!

I think this whole thing about poultry being raised on quinolone antibiotics has some truth to it also. I just ate two cheap department store chicken fillets just now and feel truly awful. Looks like I will need to cut out meat for a few months. I dont mind this so much, it will probably have a very positive effect on my body composition.

[VespeneGas]

Surely anything that reduces physical endurance causes bedroom problems though? For the record Im a 90 minute man (2 or 3 times over in the night if im keen) I cant see 180 minutes of aerobic exercise being easy on the tendons!

I think this whole thing about poultry being raised on quinolone antibiotics has some truth to it also. I just ate two cheap department store chicken fillets just now and feel truly awful. Looks like I will need to cut out meat for a few months. I dont mind this so much, it will probably have a very positive effect on my body composition.

I know it seems surprising, but just review the most common sexual positions in your head. Most of the work is being done in the hip/abdominal region, which doesn't seem too tendon-dependent. I can do crunches till the cows come home with no issues. Forearm tendons get a bit tired in elevated missionary position, but you can always give her a turn if you get tired

FWIW, my ex-GF and I went for 3 hours the other night.

[Centurion]

Surely anything that reduces physical endurance causes bedroom problems though? For the record Im a 90 minute man (2 or 3 times over in the night if im keen) I cant see 180 minutes of aerobic exercise being easy on the tendons!

I think this whole thing about poultry being raised on quinolone antibiotics has some truth to it also. I just ate two cheap department store chicken fillets just now and feel truly awful. Looks like I will need to cut out meat for a few months. I dont mind this so much, it will probably have a very positive effect on my body composition.

I know it seems surprising, but just review the most common sexual positions in your head. Most of the work is being done in the hip/abdominal region, which doesn't seem too tendon-dependent. I can do crunches till the cows come home with no issues. Forearm tendons get a bit tired in elevated missionary position, but you can always give her a turn if you get tired

FWIW, my ex-GF and I went for 3 hours the other night.

Well at least theres some good we can find in all of this! Make love not tendon ruptures!

[Matt]

Make sure you do this

Yellow card to report ADR's
http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

and also contact Bayer or whoever made the drug.

http://www.bayer.co...._care/index.php email is on the right. They'll send you out a form. This only takes 5 minutes,, please try do it.

Edited by Matt, 10 June 2009 - 01:29 AM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Hey Matt and anyone else familiar with quinolone toxicity: what have you heard about gemifloxacin (brand name Factive)? Its one of the newer quinolones out there and is supposed to be great for Lyme, with very low MIC and MBC values. Some Lyme MD's are using five day "pulses" of the drug, either once or twice monthly. Its apparently so effective that continuous dosing is unnecessary.

I am tempted to try it but I thought I'd ask how it fares compared to cipro and levofloxacin as far as incidence rates of "quinolone toxicity" or whatever you term the unique adverse reaction that some people have. I haven't heard of any problems in the Lyme community.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 June 2009 - 04:13 PM.

[Matt]

I don't know many that have taken that one, but all quinolones seem to be capable of the same damage, with cipro being the least toxic and least likely to cause CNS effects. I understand your situation, and its tempting to just go for it. I knew the consequences before I took cipro, in fact I had the prescription for 1 week before I actually took the thing, just had a strong gut feeling I would be the one that would have a bad reaction. And I wasn't scared to take antibiotics, I mean I even been on trimethoprim for 3 months straight without ANY side effects whatsoever for something that was constantly midiagnosed for years (chronic bacterial prostatitis), and it's still there to a more milder degree (might just be symptoms without bacteria now, can happen). If it comes back I might even have to take long term low dose for like 6 months or a year. It's like almost impossible to cure the thing. Quinolones because of the tissue penetration are an obvious choice for you, but I guess only you can decide whether its worth the risks. To be honet I don't know the true ADR rate of these things, neither do I believe the FDA or drug companies know it because people don't associate these kind of long term problems with abx. In saying that it's odd that I've had several people on this forum, that have been on here for long time also message me about their side effects from quinolones. Some have shared privately by PM with me, and some have shared with the forum like in this thread.

Problem with Lyme is that most quinolone symptoms also mimic lyme symptoms, and as with other drugs like chemotherapy, radiation, toxic compounds, quinolones seem to be able to induce some delayed neuropathy.... so if you complete the drug with no side effects this doesn't really mean much until at least a few months out when you know you're clear. If you do decide you take the stuff then first things you watch out for is

In the absence of anxiety or racing thoughts when trying to sleep you experience insomnia
You develop some feeling of stiffness in the joints, especially knees
You develop mild transient tingling sensations of the feet.
Achlles soreness or any other tendon in your body

If you had a sinus infection I would say that no you shouldn't take a quinolone in my opinion. For something like Lyme which can be quite a difficult disease to deal with then I would be more in favour of treatment. What are your chances of getting a reaction like me and others, no one knows. I only took 250mg as my first dose as a precatuion and still developed tendinitis within hours. There could be genetic reasons, gene expression changes that predispose one to reactions, drug interaction with food and supplements, deficiency in Vitamin E and Magnesium. For some reason I always tend to run into some mild magneisum deficency symptoms if I'm not supplementing it (even though I get above RDA in my diet)

Is the tetracycline not working for you?

Edited by Matt, 12 June 2009 - 06:28 PM.

[Centurion]

Matt in your experience can symptoms be transient? Last week I felt kinda rough. All week this week I have felt great, until today, when im walking around with sore muscles like ive done an intense all body workout or something (except I havent) have the symptoms been known to come and go like this? I know symptoms do cycle in floxed individuals, but surely after two weeks from appearance of symptoms, its a little early for me to be "cycling"

Ed

Edited by Centurion, 20 June 2009 - 04:03 PM.

[Matt]

Well yeah a lot of the symptoms were transient for me during the beginning. A lot of others they say their symptoms just get progressively worse. At no point (other than insomnia) was I overwhelmed with symptoms. Just different ones at different times. To properly evaluate your type of reaction you'd have to wait until at least 6 months. When someone looks at the huge amount of symptoms I had, they would probably think I was either paranoid or about to die anyday. However this wasn't the case, no more than 4-5 symptoms at a time and other people would not realize what had happened. Other than I couldn't run or do other stuff for quite a while.

And cycling can start very early on yeah.

Edited by Matt, 20 June 2009 - 04:32 PM.

[Centurion]

Getting some melanotan II based on its recent neurprotection against cisplatin:

http://www.narcis.in...id=pk1arp381yx9

My brother took cisplatin and can attest to its severely neurodestructive effects. If this stuff can battle that, it could be of benefit to me.

[Centurion]

I took metronidazole a few months before cipro and developed mild tingling in hands and feet from that also. Only that lasted 2 weeks at moderate level and then very mild and went away completely within 2 months. It was nothing in comparison to cipro though. Maybe it set me up for the cipro reaction because of already existing damage to the nerves. It's interesting you say that you took that antibiotic because we have a few people that also took it prior to their reaction. I had already taken a course of metronidazole a year or so before that, back in 2006 I think because of a dental infection, and had no problems the first time.

Matt I have found a few references online to metronidazole induced neuropathy which may support your experience. I will follow up with the actual links later (closed browser, need to relocate them)

[Centurion]

VespeneGas,

How did your fatigue symptoms progress, Matt's 3 month doesn't look too bad on the surface, although considering I've already gotten a whole bunch of slating performance reviews at work from just a week of symptoms, I'm not sure I can last that long!

Matt was your reaction severe, is 3 months typical or rather favourable?

Ed

3 months is indeed favorable. Most floxed people don't get away with 3 months. Matt's reaction was not quite severe; e.g. he said he did not have chronic pains. A severe reaction would mean a high dose (1+gramm) and multi week cipro therapy and multiple years of severe ADR's, and possibly some lifetime debiliations (lifetime in the classic sense of course).

Unfortunately I was mistaken when I was under the original impression all I took was 3 cipro pills. Previously, with my metronidazole I was on 1 gram daily of ofloxacin for two weeks. Noticed absolutely no side effects at the time, but then ofloxacin is known for being insidiously delayed. This puts me square in the crosshairs of a severe reaction (tiredness, losing my job, being housebound the whole nine yards) so I'm taking what steps I can and hoping I dodge this bullet.

Getting some melatonin this week since Scott mentioned its a brain antioxidant.

[Centurion]

Another ADR I have noticed - itchy skin, my skin is constantly itchy these days for some reason and reddens easily. Odd!

[Matt]

I experienced the skin easily going red during the early months. Some people notice their skin becomes thinner and trasnparent, so maybe its some inflammatory reaction in the skin, breaking down of collagen. Who knows

I'm surprised not many people here are offering any suggesions for you. But then this type of reaction is hard to believe (people think you're nuts, and by being polite don't comment), or they have no idea how to help.

At some point you might notice some changes in your veins in your palms of your hands, your wrists, and other spider veins and other abnormalities will likely show up over a period of time for most people who are floxed. One of my obvious ones was a vein appearing under my right eye, which I have to get lasered someday.


I think Quinolones are a good Pro Aging drug lol. Even at normal doses in animals there is toxicity to many tissues. Its stupid how these are widely used.

Edited by Matt, 22 June 2009 - 02:19 PM.

[Centurion]

I experienced the skin easily going red during the early months. Some people notice their skin becomes thinner and trasnparent, so maybe its some inflammatory reaction in the skin, breaking down of collagen. Who knows

I'm surprised not many people here are offering any suggesions for you. But then this type of reaction is hard to believe (people think you're nuts, and by being polite don't comment), or they have no idea how to help.

At some point you might notice some changes in your veins in your palms of your hands, your wrists, and other spider veins and other abnormalities will likely show up over a period of time for most people who are floxed. One of my obvious ones was a vein appearing under my right eye, which I have to get lasered someday.


I think Quinolones are a good Pro Aging drug lol. Even at normal doses in animals there is toxicity to many tissues. Its stupid how these are widely used.

Thinner and transparent? eugh! Im hoping I dont get bitten by that one. The pain in the knees and ankles right now is noticeable but manageable, it hasnt (yet) interfered with normal day to day activities, with the exception of cessation of exercise. I havent noticed vein changes, but an increased suceptibility to the cold. I used to be unbelievably resilient to the cold, would often be very warm despite cold temperatures, whereas now I actually feel it as much as anyone else, perhaps more. Really rather depressing that!

Ive ordered some melanotan, due to its neuroprotective properties. Lets hope the thinning of my skin doesnt cause some problems with its use.

[Centurion]

http://www.circ.ahaj...ull/111/20/2662

These findings implicate microvascular damage as the basis for toxic neuropathy induced by cisplatin and suggest that local angiogenic gene therapy may constitute a novel prevention or treatment for this disorder without augmenting tumor growth or vascularization.

Given the observations that cipro reactions cause vascular damage, this may be an option in the future.

Edited by Centurion, 22 June 2009 - 04:11 PM.

[Centurion]

http://www.cumc.colu...7/mid/mid22.pdf

"Active Efflux System: low level of resistance is acquired by the induction of
efflux pumps to remove quinolones from the cell. Present in Gram +/-"

Certain bacteria (both gram neg and pos) use efflux pumps to remove quinolones from cells. This may be of interest. Im not saying im going to seek out the necessary bacteria and then deliberately infect myself, but this may be worth looking into further.

[Centurion]

http://www.tendinosis.org/future.html - Future methods for healing tendinosis. Interesting info on Nitric Oxide

[Centurion]

http://www.springerl...1g434v74203337/ High dose Vit C may be of help in accelerating tendon healing.

[FunkOdyssey]

http://www.cumc.colu...7/mid/mid22.pdf

"Active Efflux System: low level of resistance is acquired by the induction of
efflux pumps to remove quinolones from the cell. Present in Gram +/-"

Certain bacteria (both gram neg and pos) use efflux pumps to remove quinolones from cells. This may be of interest. Im not saying im going to seek out the necessary bacteria and then deliberately infect myself, but this may be worth looking into further.

Why would bacterial resistance to quinolones be of interest? The efflux pumps expel the quinolone from the bacteria's cell, not your own cells. Has no implications for humans aside from the fact that your infection won't go away if you attempt to treat a resistant strain with a quinolone.