22 replies to this topic

[rwac]

http://www.news-medi...2/11/33410.aspx

So guess what the conclusion they come to is ?

"The researchers believe the antibiotic possibly hinders the action of an enzyme that destroys certain cells in the nervous system."

This would be funny if it wasn't so stupid. Talk about avoiding the obvious conclusion.

For a four month period the patients were given a 100mg a day of doxycycline, a member of the tetracycline family of antibiotics, to take in addition to their regular dose of interferon. The patients underwent monthly neurological examinations, MRI's to detect brain lesions and blood tests to monitor their safety.

At the end of this period brain scans revealed that brain tissue damage was reduced by at least 25% in nine of the patients and there were also signs that disability levels had improved.

[FunkOdyssey]

Imagine if they took a real dose of doxycycline.... *gasp*

[niner]

What's the thinking on bacterial etiology in MS? Is it thought to be caused by infection with a specific bug, or is it more a problem with inappropriate immune response to bacteria in general, or maybe certain bacteria; sort of like reactive arthritis except directed at neural tissue? (i.e. bacterial proteins look like body protein, and antibodies to bacteria hit something in the body as well) I know nothing about it.

[Blue]

A small, open study without control so not worth very much. Could have been the placebo effect, increasing sunlight if it was done in the spring (MS seems related to D-vitamin), or Doxycykline's own rather good anti-inflammatory effect, you can use it to treat asthma for example:
http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=15748522

Kind of impressive that a not obscure journal accepted this study for publication.

Edited by Blue, 18 October 2009 - 06:06 AM.

[rwac]

What's the thinking on bacterial etiology in MS? Is it thought to be caused by infection with a specific bug, or is it more a problem with inappropriate immune response to bacteria in general, or maybe certain bacteria; sort of like reactive arthritis except directed at neural tissue? (i.e. bacterial proteins look like body protein, and antibodies to bacteria hit something in the body as well) I know nothing about it.

This is the one I heard. Sorry I don't have a reference.

Certain bacteria infect neurons, and induce them to malfunction (Generate ROS ?).

The Immune system notices the neurons malfunctioning, and proceeds to attack the infected cells.

[kismet]

A small, open study without control so not worth very much. Could have been the placebo effect, increasing sunlight if it was done in the spring (MS seems related to D-vitamin), or Doxycykline's own rather good anti-inflammatory effect, you can use it to treat asthma for example:

It could not just be the unspecific "anti-inflammatory" effect, that's what the authors actually suggest. The inhibition of MMPs is part of its anti-inflammatory effect, the others are, I think, effects on chemotaxis and T-cell modulation. The effect on asthma is very likely due to broad inhibtion of MMPs, which AFAIK mediate asthmatic damage and inflammation via elastolysis.
All those effects may be involved whether the etiology is bacterial or not. Your wild, baseless speculations notwithstanding, rwac. Your conclusion is not obvious from the data; there is no more evidence for bacterial origin than bona fide auto-immunity and I fear I'm still overstating the case for bacterial involvement.
This is but one study on tetracyclines and MS. While the data is promising, too many compounds die in phase III due to lack of efficacy.

Edited by kismet, 21 October 2009 - 07:51 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

more

Mult Scler. 2009 Sep 23. [Epub ahead of print]
Glatiramer Acetate in Combination with Minocycline in Patients with Relapsing-Remitting Multiple Sclerosis: Results of a Canadian, Multicenter, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial.
Metz LM, Li D, Traboulsee A, Myles ML, Duquette P, Godin J, Constantin M, Yong VW.

University of Calgary.

Minocycline is proposed as an add-on therapy to improve the efficacy of glatiramer acetate in relapsing-remitting multiple sclerosis. The effect of minocycline plus glatiramer acetate was evaluated in this double-blind, placebo-controlled study by determining the total number of T1 gadolinium-enhanced lesions at months 8 and 9 in patients who were starting glatiramer acetate and had at least one T1 gadolinium-enhanced lesion on screening magnetic resonance imaging. Forty-four participants were randomized to either minocycline 100 mg twice daily or matching placebo for 9 months as add-on therapy. They were assessed at screening and months 1, 3, 6, 8 and 9. Forty participants completed the study. Compared with glatiramer acetate/placebo, glatiramer acetate/minocycline reduced the total number of T1 gadolinium-enhanced lesions by 63% (mean 1.47 versus 2.95; p = 0.08), the total number of new and enlarging T2 lesions by 65% (mean 1.84 versus 5.14; p = 0.06), and the total T2 disease burden (p = 0.10). A higher number of gadolinium-enhanced lesions were present in the glatiramer acetate/minocycline group at baseline; this was incorporated into the analysis of the primary endpoint but makes interpretation of the data more challenging. The risk of relapse tended to be lower in the combination group (0.19 versus 0.41; p = NS). Treatment was safe and well tolerated. We conclude that efficacy endpoints showed a consistent trend favoring combination treatment. As minocycline is a relatively safe oral therapy, further study of this combination is warranted in relapsing-remitting multiple sclerosis.

PMID: 19776092

[rwac]

Don't really know if this means all that much.

Antibiotic use and risk of multiple sclerosis. Alonso A, Jick SS, Jick H, Hernán MA. Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115, USA. aalogut@alumni.unav.es

Some reports suggest that bacteria, including Chlamydophila pneumoniae, could be involved in the etiology of multiple sclerosis. If that is true, persons who used antibiotics active against these bacteria, compared with nonusers, might be at lower risk of multiple sclerosis. Using a 1993-2000 case-control study nested in the United Kingdom-based General Practice Research Database cohort, the authors identified 163 multiple sclerosis cases who were followed up for at least 3 years before their first symptoms (the index date). Up to 10 controls matched to the cases by age, sex, general practice, and time in the cohort were selected. Exposure to antibiotics was assessed through computerized medical records. Overall antibiotic use or use of antibiotics against C. pneumoniae was not associated with multiple sclerosis risk. However, use of penicillins in the 3 years before the index date decreased the risk of developing a first attack of multiple sclerosis (odds ratio=0.5, 95% confidence interval: 0.3, 0.9 for those who used penicillins for >or=15 days compared with no use). In conclusion, use of antibiotics active against C. pneumoniae was not associated with a decreased risk of short-term multiple sclerosis. The observed lower risk of multiple sclerosis for penicillin users needs to be confirmed in other populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16597708

[Mian Ali Ismail]

Has anyone tried Doxycycline and has it helped for any neurodegenerative disease ?

 

Edited by Mian Ali Ismail, 17 May 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Psilociraptor1]

Has anyone tried Doxycycline and has it helped for any neurodegenerative disease ?

 

I wouldn't recommend playing with it loosely. Chronic infections like this are notriously refractory to antibiotics and they can sometimes make the condition worse. A prime example you can read on is lyme disease. I haven't used doxycycline myself but I have messed around with some herbal antibiotics (berberine, cryptolepsis, etc) and after a few painful weeks of brutal herxheimer reactions generated new neurological symptoms which have persisted for months. I'm not sure it's quite clear why this happens, but many stealth pathogens exhibit astounding genetic flexibility and it's possible that stress may encourage migration into new tissues and increased virulence. I'm not saying that antibiotics are totally useless but you have to be really smart about it. Try and get the most accurate diagnosis you can. Searching for common viruses and tickborne infections is a great start. Bartonella, borrelia, babesia, ehrlichia, mycoplasma, anaplasma, rickettsia, chlamydia, etc (those are not necessarily all MS specific). Then know your pathogen the best you can. They will inhabit difference compartments of the intracellular and extracellular environments, they will infect different tissues and respond to different antibiotics. Some will require 3 different types of antibiotics because they will infect multiple places which can not be reached by one antibiotics. Then consider the roles of altered morphologies. What we're learning about microbes is that our old view of point-mutation based, antibiotic driven resistance is not entirely correct. In fact these classical resistance pathways are not even the biggest problem. Many if not all microorganisms including fungi can form persister cells and biofilms. Persister cells are metabolically inert dormant cells. Since our antibiotics are largely bacteriostatic and not bacteriocidal a lot of them are not so useful against them giving them innate tolerance. Usually a small portion of a population will always be in persister morphological forms, often times in biofilms. You will then hit the active population with antibiotics, feel a lot better, stop the antibiotics and then relapse because the persister cells start dividing. The immune system can deal with persisters usually, but not so well when they occupy biofilms. So this is where we're at these days, wondering how to get rid of these damned biofilms. There are a number of suggestions you can read in to but very little indication of in vivo efficacy. Furthermore, biofilms are not all identical and treatment protocols may not work for every type of infection.
 

[rwac]

I haven't used doxycycline myself but I have messed around with some herbal antibiotics (berberine, cryptolepsis, etc) and after a few painful weeks of brutal herxheimer reactions generated new neurological symptoms which have persisted for months.

If you want an antibiotic, use an antibiotic, rather than some unknown dose of a "herbal antibiotic". Minocycline for instance is used for acne for crying out loud. Also avoid those herxheimer reactions, they are bad.

[Psilociraptor1]

 

I haven't used doxycycline myself but I have messed around with some herbal antibiotics (berberine, cryptolepsis, etc) and after a few painful weeks of brutal herxheimer reactions generated new neurological symptoms which have persisted for months.

If you want an antibiotic, use an antibiotic, rather than some unknown dose of a "herbal antibiotic". Minocycline for instance is used for acne for crying out loud. Also avoid those herxheimer reactions, they are bad.

 

 

Cryptolepsis isn't an unknown antibiotic nor is berberine nor is there a "known dose" for treating this stuff. I was recommended berberine before the lyme diagnosis by my old doctor because I had some e coli overgrowth. Cryptolepsis is used for malaria treatment I have coinfections with a related protozoal infection called Babesia which lacks any standard efficacious treatment. I stand by what I did, both are POTENT. They are no more prone to failure than pharmaceutical antibiotics and at least may have a smaller chance of driving resistance. I don't know where your bias is coming from but many herbs are incredibly powerful antimicrobials and the fact you put them in quotes as if its not a real thing is a little concerning. And in doing so you're distracting from the main part of my post which is that monotherapy with any antibiotic against an established infection of this sort is almost useless

Edited by Psilociraptor1, 30 June 2016 - 04:02 PM.

[rwac]

Cryptolepsis isn't an unknown antibiotic nor is berberine nor is there a "known dose" for treating this stuff. I was recommended berberine before the lyme diagnosis by my old doctor because I had some e coli overgrowth. Cryptolepsis is used for malaria treatment I have coinfections with a related protozoal infection called Babesia which lacks any standard efficacious treatment. I stand by what I did, both are POTENT. They are no more prone to failure than pharmaceutical antibiotics and at least may have a smaller chance of driving resistance. I don't know where your bias is coming from but many herbs are incredibly powerful antimicrobials and the fact you put them in quotes as if its not a real thing is a little concerning. And in doing so you're distracting from the main part of my post which is that monotherapy with any antibiotic against an established infection of this sort is almost useless

I did a lot of things for my lyme and the herbs didn't do much IMO. Bacterial resistance is mostly driven by overuse in hospitals and feedlots.

[Psilociraptor1]

 

Cryptolepsis isn't an unknown antibiotic nor is berberine nor is there a "known dose" for treating this stuff. I was recommended berberine before the lyme diagnosis by my old doctor because I had some e coli overgrowth. Cryptolepsis is used for malaria treatment I have coinfections with a related protozoal infection called Babesia which lacks any standard efficacious treatment. I stand by what I did, both are POTENT. They are no more prone to failure than pharmaceutical antibiotics and at least may have a smaller chance of driving resistance. I don't know where your bias is coming from but many herbs are incredibly powerful antimicrobials and the fact you put them in quotes as if its not a real thing is a little concerning. And in doing so you're distracting from the main part of my post which is that monotherapy with any antibiotic against an established infection of this sort is almost useless

I did a lot of things for my lyme and the herbs didn't do much IMO. Bacterial resistance is mostly driven by overuse in hospitals and feedlots.

 

 

Well I'm sorry to hear that, but hopefully you can understand how much of an overgeneralization that statement you just made is. Like saying "pharms didn't do much for my cancer" based on an experience with Claritin. Herbs DO things. Physiologically, there is enormous evidence for this. They are absolutely not inert substances. Whether you apply the right herb, or the right combination to the right condition in the right dose for the right length of time is another story entirely. This is something our culture doesn't understand very well and we have a long ways to go to use these things more effectively. That doesn't justify a disregard for potent and useful medicines. Also I'm not sure what you used, but there is some discrepancy between popular supplements and what has been historically used for a variety of conditions and is promoted by actual herbalists. For example as an antibiotic I can take oregano and olive oil for weeks and not notice a difference. A tsp of cryptolepis tincture over 24 hours produces brutal dieoff effects (yes i know this is not a desirable effect, but it is testament to it's already recognized potency). And not to say the others are useless, but to my knowledge they don't have nearly enough historical or scientific evidence to justify their use over herbs that do yet get little press. So just another thing to consider. There are a lot of "herbs of the week" out there

 

And yes you're right, resistance is mostly driven in hospitals and feed lots, but when you are treating long-term inflammatory conditions you are heading into unknown territory with extended antibiotic use. In either case, less risk of resistance was just one factor of many. The main one being an interest in sustainble medicine and the broader complexities of herbal medicines that are lost in refined products. I am by no means against pharmaceuticals though.

Edited by Psilociraptor1, 01 July 2016 - 12:28 AM.

[xEva]

oh hi rwac! so good to see you long time no seen

 

@ Psilociraptor1, I've read that serrapeptise and some other enzymes, when taken on empty stomach can disrupt biofilms. I learned the trick long time ago from a woman on some forum who said she never took antibiotics without serrapeptise and... sorry, I forgot what other well-known and popular enzyme she was using. I take serrapeptise with Candex (contains mostly cellulase and amylase) and found that this combo has a very pronounced effect. 

 

I'm glad herbs are helping you. Like rwac, I have more trust in antibiotics. Though I do swear by lemon balm as a great antiviral. 

 

 

 

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

I was on doxy along with bactrim, flagyl and plaquenil for Lyme and Bartonella. Later my Dr. switched doxy for zithro and amoxy.

I did see some improvement in physical symptoms but not neuro/cognitive during my three months on abx. I had to stop treatment as my liver enzymes became elevated.

[Psilociraptor1]

 

oh hi rwac! so good to see you long time no seen

 

@ Psilociraptor1, I've read that serrapeptise and some other enzymes, when taken on empty stomach can disrupt biofilms. I learned the trick long time ago from a woman on some forum who said she never took antibiotics without serrapeptise and... sorry, I forgot what other well-known and popular enzyme she was using. I take serrapeptise with Candex (contains mostly cellulase and amylase) and found that this combo has a very pronounced effect. 

 

I'm glad herbs are helping you. Like rwac, I have more trust in antibiotics. Though I do swear by lemon balm as a great antiviral. 

 

 

I understand the trust, but that is more a product of the fact that we understand them better as a culture (they are more simplistic after all :P). Studies on them have better funding and so we can use them more effectively. We know what pH they function best in, what intracellular compartments they reach, their kinetics, what organisms they are active against, etc. There isn't any scientific reason to think that they are any better than herb derived antimicrobials however. In fact there is reason to suspect the contrary may be true and that's why i have to remain a little stubborn on this. I think we're going to find that we need herbs sooner or later if we want to do real good medicine and the faster we get over our adversion to it and start studying them a little more the better off we're going to be. They have been nagivating the same microbial matrix as us and interacting with mammalian physiology for millions of years. The sorts of complex modulatory effects they produce on human health absolutely can not be achieved through reductive medicine. There is an ecological relationship between man, microbe and plant that is largely determinant of health and in some ways herbal medicine is a way to reconnect to that. Herbal medicine is to antibiotics what fruit is to sugar. You can get a high-powered delivery of your immediate needs, but it's not necessarily a sustainable ecologically sound solution. That's not to say I have any adversion to technological medicine however, just the religion of it. One of the dumbest things we have done as a culture is to dismiss several thousands of years worth of accumulated knowledge of thousands of different herbs. The chinese had over 1,600 plants they use and that doesn't even include all of ayurveda or indigenous peruvian medicine which stems from one of the densest and most diverse natural pharmacies on the planet. I don't think anyone in contemporary culture is really qualified to criticize herbalism as a whole especially given that the little we study is constantly being validated by scientific research no matter how small our ambitions in that field. In a way we've spent most of 20th century medicine trying to reinvent the wheel before asking whether we already had the tools available to us that we needed. And with that we're learning many of the same complications that plants already learned about millions of years ago. Ie antibiotic resistance.

 

Anyways don't want to keep driving this off topic. As for serrapeptidase... Eva Sapi, one of the most prominent researches on borrelia biofilms has found that in vitro it is rather dissapointing. Unfortunately I don't have a source for this as she did not publish it, but she does discuss it on some of her lectures you can find on youtube. It could possibly be that she just didn't carry the experiment out long enough as there definitely was a positive effect, just mild. She did publish one study showing certain formulations of stevia to be extremely effective against all tested borrelial morphologies including biofilms http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4681354/ Unfortunately I can't find much on traditional use of stevia as a medicinal so there's not much indication whether it would work or be safe when used in this manner clinically. She also mentioned bee venom and one other pharm that i don't believe is on the market yet (Curza?). She didn't publish all the failures, but claimed to have tested out nearly a hundred compounds at the request of others and stevia was the only one she really writes home about. Her theory is that its "sugar-like" aspects cause biofilms to open their nutrient pores stimulating the intake of other antibiotics as well as the stevia itself which is antimicrobial. There isn't any proof of that to my knowledge. There has been some mention of borrelia as a possible cause of MS and prominant lyme physician Richard Horowitz claims several of his misdiagnosed MS patients tested for lyme. I'm not aware of any proof of this connection in the literature however. That being said, this is where the issue comes about. Borrelial biofilms seem to be quite robust and not as susceptible to antibiofilm agents such as EDTA used in other biofilm models. That doesn't mean there is no treatment, but biofilms exhibit quite a bit of heterogeneity between microbes as well as within the same infection (some of Sapi's pictures showed that doxycycline actually killed some borrelial biofilms but not others that were on the same plate). So without knowing exactly what kind of infection is causing your MS, it is impossible to know how to address it as there is no "broad-spectrum" antibiofilm agent that I'm aware of. Serrapeptidase, lumbrokinase, and nattokinase are quite popular but their efficacy has not really been shown on a broad scale. And being enzymes I'm curious about how good their kinetics are in vivo. I'm not writing it off though, i know people who have gotten some terrible die-off from it which is indication of some activity. But there is a serious need to broaden our search for antibiofilm agents to treat these sorts of infections. I'm willing to bet there are some good herbs out there for it Somewhere in that archive of 2000+ poorly studied medicinal plants. Afterall i haven't seen too many plants covered in biofilm.

 

 

Omega 3 Snake Oil

Posted Today, 03:04 PM

I was on doxy along with bactrim, flagyl and plaquenil for Lyme and Bartonella. Later my Dr. switched doxy for zithro and amoxy.

I did see some improvement in physical symptoms but not neuro/cognitive during my three months on abx. I had to stop treatment as my liver enzymes became elevated.

 

Okay back off topic for a split sec then I'm done... Did that improvement last? One of my biggest fears is relapse which is why I have not jumped right back into treatment. I'm also worried about the liver enzymes too. Been reading a lot about idiosyncratic liver injury lately and it's got me afraid to experiment. Has your doc done anything for liver health/detox? I'm trying to figure out a good protective plan but searching for "detox" brings up a lot of woowoo. So far I'm just taking danshen and milk thistle but I'm not really sure if that's sufficient. My doc recommended Smilax but despite pervasive claims i can not find any evidence that it does anything it's claimed to do (ie bind endotoxins and prevent herxheimer reactions)
 

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

 

Omega 3 Snake Oil

Posted Today, 03:04 PM

I was on doxy along with bactrim, flagyl and plaquenil for Lyme and Bartonella. Later my Dr. switched doxy for zithro and amoxy.

I did see some improvement in physical symptoms but not neuro/cognitive during my three months on abx. I had to stop treatment as my liver enzymes became elevated.

 

Okay back off topic for a split sec then I'm done... Did that improvement last? One of my biggest fears is relapse which is why I have not jumped right back into treatment. I'm also worried about the liver enzymes too. Been reading a lot about idiosyncratic liver injury lately and it's got me afraid to experiment. Has your doc done anything for liver health/detox? I'm trying to figure out a good protective plan but searching for "detox" brings up a lot of woowoo. So far I'm just taking danshen and milk thistle but I'm not really sure if that's sufficient. My doc recommended Smilax but despite pervasive claims i can not find any evidence that it does anything it's claimed to do (ie bind endotoxins and prevent herxheimer reactions)
 

 

 

It didn't last. I developed secondary symptoms of dysautonomia, not sure what the exact cause is. I'm not sure I'll try abx again. Might stick with herbs.

Have you tried herbs for Lyme? I can make recommendations...
 

[Logjam]

Plenty of antibiotics have off-target effects.  I wouldn't conclude that the obvious is true, though it's a possibility.  

 

Doxycycline may also help with some amyloid disorders: http://circ.ahajourn...A17179.abstract

 

Plenty of antibiotics ending in "-cycline" and "-mycin" have off-target effects.  

 

I know medicine tends to just throw all the stuff they don't understand into "autoimmune," but MS might actually be one of those legitimately.  The most recent cures as a result of 'rebooting the immune system' vote for this.  http://www.telegraph...w-ms-treatment/

Edited by Logjam, 02 July 2016 - 12:50 AM.

[Psilociraptor1]

Plenty of antibiotics have off-target effects.  I wouldn't conclude that the obvious is true, though it's a possibility.  

 

Doxycycline may also help with some amyloid disorders: http://circ.ahajourn...A17179.abstract

 

Plenty of antibiotics ending in "-cycline" and "-mycin" have off-target effects.  

 

I know medicine tends to just throw all the stuff they don't understand into "autoimmune," but MS might actually be one of those legitimately.  The most recent cures as a result of 'rebooting the immune system' vote for this.  http://www.telegraph...w-ms-treatment/

 

Hmmm i know as well as anyone how difficult it is to "prove" a microbial cause, but I am very weary of the notion of autoimmune disorders in general. It's possible in the very literal sense of the word possible, but everything I've studied about health suggests that the body doesn't just "dysregulate" for no reason. Perhaps infections could lead to positive feedback loops in inflammatory pathways. Perhaps the treatment lead to better resolution of the infection. Or better tolerance. Perhaps she's just waiting to relapse. Then there is the fact that some infections target the intrallular compartment of certain immune cells leading to the possibility that it was wiped out by treatment. You might be right and it's certainly interesting, but i don't think it's much of a lead. The thing about inflammatory disorders is that even when there is an infection it isn't necessarily a 1:1 correlation between infection and disease. There is a great deal of poorly understood immunological training that goes on. I wish i had the sources, but i recall reading somewhere that mice tolerate heavier pathogen burdens without inflammation when exposed early in life as opposed to when they are exposed later in life. So there's really no telling how much of a "reset" this may have actually been. Especially when considering that these sorts of pathogenic strategies are based in long-term persistence and not logarithmic growth, the damage is largely a result of immune overreaction than simple presence of a pathogen. So symptom resolution might not necessarily be indicative of a lack of stimulus

 

As for the amyloids, amyloids are foundational components of bacterial biofilms which would actually indicate the effect was not off target. The heart is particularly vulnerable to biofilm formation. In fact endocarditis is one of the only widely accepted biofilm disorders.

 

I realize I am biased towards the infectious possibility, but I guess I'm just being a social counterweight to the other overpromoted options :P We have enough of those haha

 

 

 

It didn't last. I developed secondary symptoms of dysautonomia, not sure what the exact cause is. I'm not sure I'll try abx again. Might stick with herbs.

Have you tried herbs for Lyme? I can make recommendations...

 

That's horrible. Exactly what I'm afraid of. What exactly are the symptoms? I already have a right bundle branch block and ridiculous constipation from that. All my chest pains and myalgia practically disappeared and i just had a little mild nerve pain in my legs and arthritis until my doctor told me to take berberine. Now i have testicular pain, what i can only guess is meningitis, chest pains, myalgia, more arthritis and other random pains. I started cryptolepsis and felt the nerve pain come on really bad and chickened out. Had numbness for a week afterwards. I'm not taking anything that's potently antimicrobial again until I get all my stuff in order. I want to make sure I'm in tip top shape, got some antibiofilm things in order, no obvious functional medicine deficits before i subject myself to that again. Unless my body can clear the persisters and biofilms there is no point in aggrevating the infection and causing it to spread.

 

I have tried a number of things though haven't been overly commited to anything yet to say. Currently taking danshen and ashwagandha. I would love any recommendations you've got. I'm always looking for new leads! I have read all stephen buhners books which i find really fascinating but don't get much opportunity to talk to people and see what has actually worked for them.
 

Edited by Psilociraptor1, 02 July 2016 - 01:37 AM.

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

remind me were you confirmed positive for Lyme? If so I strongly recommend you try herbals. I made a substantial improvement on banderol and samento by Nutramedix. They're not cheap but not crazy expensive to try for a month or so.

[Psilociraptor1]

remind me were you confirmed positive for Lyme? If so I strongly recommend you try herbals. I made a substantial improvement on banderol and samento by Nutramedix. They're not cheap but not crazy expensive to try for a month or so.

 

So i was only able to turn a positive Elisa, not a western blot which is not uncommon. However, i tested positive for multiple tick-borne infections including babesia, ehrlichia, and if you count mycoplasma with low cd57 counts and symptoms that are extremely characteristic of lyme. So I'm not confirmed positive by CDC criteria, but i've been diagnosed on clinical criteria. That's interesting about samento and banderol given that banderol has no other uses known to the west. I've been taking cats claw for a while on and off. I may try banderol sometime as i've heard some good reports despite the lack of information available on it

Edited by Psilociraptor1, 02 July 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

Doxy is thought to help with prion diseases... thoughts?

http://jnnp.bmj.com/...-310127.extract