34 replies to this topic

[brokenportal]

It can be hard to target the religious market some times because many of them are more prone to think that we are playing god and or that there is life after death so there is no reason to want to extend this one. Although, of course, there is still a lot of room to market there.

Ive been thinking recently, and maybe this has already crossed a lot of other peoples minds, that maybe religious markets are actually a better target crowd for the Immortality Institute because of our name.

Its hard to use our name in many circumstances so we revert to calling it things like "Imminst" or "Advocates & Researchers for Unlimited Lifespans" or "this great supplements forum" or whatever. But with religions, wont it be much easier for us to leverage Immortality? They cant scoff it because they are already for it and so maybe this is big foot in the door for this huge market for us. If anybody wants to help, lets continue discussing this and see what kinds endeavors we may be able to engage to test this out more comprehensively.

[brokenportal]

Another thing, we wouldnt want to target hard core religious people, but there is a huge, huge pool of border line not sure waffler type religious people out there that it seems would be especially good to target. They arent completely sold on religion, they are just kind of riding the wave to have something to beleive in because they havent thought about it all the way through yet, and they have already admitted that they are willing to beleive in the concept of Immortality. So we could actually be the "rational" ones here by reigning their assertions of "Immortaltity" back down instead of the other way around.

You know, like this,

Imminster "So you beleive in an after life and all that? Thats interesting, I went through a phase like that myself once too. Maybe your right, but even better yet would be to harness the growing abilities of science to let us live for an indefinite period of time here in existence wouldnt you say?"

Religious person "I dont know, science cant play god."

Imminster "But do you really beleive in god? Can you really take that chance? I know where your coming from, it could be true, but what Ive found, and what I think youll see is that we might want to stick around here as long as we can to be sure. Science has already fixed things that are like the things that we are trying to fix that cause aging. So in other words, we can already do this, now we just have to do it. Are you in? You can still try to find out if there really is a god or not, but youll have more time to do it, and if there really is no god then that means that you will have helped buy yourself more time on earth here, rather than having less."


I dont know, something like that, you get the picture.

[cribbon]

"Why would i want to waste my time here 'in agony' when i have a potential paradise waiting for me?"

I dont like the idea of attracting religious people specificly. Religion have been fighting science since some guy invented the wheel. It just doesnt make sense to try to get them to come over, it will just be alot of forum bashing. Besides, there is no point in trying to convince a religious person of anything since the idea of proof is not relevant to them.

I can think of one much better place to get some good attention - humanist groups.

Edited by cribbon, 30 October 2009 - 04:27 PM.

[KalaBeth]

1. Make certain you actually want to. Given the large proportion of not just atheists, but those who actively dislike religion, the organizational fit is likely a poor one. You can't ask for (or offer) help one day, rant about how your partners are (stupid, evil, misguided, fill in the blank) the next, and expect the partnership to actually work.

Which is a pity, because the potential for great collaboration is there. The same technologies that would make for significant life extension *also* would be wonderful for fixing all manner of diseases, critical injuries, and poor rolls of the genetic dice that you'd find tons of support for in the religious community.



2.

But with religions, wont it be much easier for us to leverage Immortality? They cant scoff it because they are already for it and so maybe this is big foot in the door for this huge market for us.

With respect, I believe this is the exact wrong approach to take.
You assume the religious want an indefinite time on earth.
Say "We want to give people (much) longer, happier, and better lives" and you'll be surprised how much support you get.
Say "we want to make it eternal" and you run smack dab into resistance, because you're effectively saying to the religious mind "you'll be forever separated from God, from those you love who have preceded you in death, and indeed from the 'Big 8.' "

Condescending to them with (in effect) "I used to believe that, now I don't, don't you want to be enlightened like me" may feel good.... but won't get you cooperation.




3. Finally. IF you want to pursue cooperation, be able to say "a good chunk of our members think X, you think Y. That's cool. Whatever our disagreements, we have common goals A,B, and C. Want to work together on them?" It's as simple - and as hard - as that.









(edited for grammar)

Edited by KalaBeth, 30 October 2009 - 05:05 PM.

[Ben Simon]

"Why would i want to waste my time here 'in agony' when i have a potential paradise waiting for me?"

I dont like the idea of attracting religious people specificly. Religion have been fighting science since some guy invented the wheel. It just doesnt make sense to try to get them to come over, it will just be alot of forum bashing. Besides, there is no point in trying to convince a religious person of anything since the idea of proof is not relevant to them.

I can think of one much better place to get some good attention - humanist groups.

This is absolute bullshit.

Every time this comes up I ask for examples of religious objections to life extension and I never get any. Maybe today will be different.

Ditch the ideology. It's ineffective and it's dull witted. Extended healthy lifespans are for everyone, and given the chance almost everyone wants them. The head of the Methuselah Foundation is a devout Christian for goodness sakes.

Besides that, religion is one of the most effective motivators and mobilisers of human culture en-masse that has ever been conceived. It makes no sense not to engage with it. People who are serious about life extension should be targeting religious support NOW.

Because if you don't, and instead carry on with all this hot headed anti religious nonsense, you may soon get your wish, and find that religious forces actually are amassing against you. This won't be their fault, mind you. It will be ours, for alienating them deliberately.

[Ben Simon]

Besides, there is no point in trying to convince a religious person of anything since the idea of proof is not relevant to them.

Pure bigotry.

[brokenportal]

We could brainstorm on possible ways to work these concerns about creating more angry religious vs agnostics vs atheists in to the approach.

For example, if a couple of people join the internetworking team to work on this branch, they could go in to religious forums, start these discussions with out mentioning us, then look for the wafflers, and the open minded religious people, and contact them privately and engage them in discussions that include names in the cause like imminst, sens foundation, methuselah foundation etc..

There are billions of religious people of all shapes and sizes, from hard cores, the closed mindeds, the hard core open minded, to mid ways, to the open minded general, to the wafflers, to the confused agnostics, to the hard core followers, to the easily swayable followers, and all kinds. It seems that the word Immortality is a key that fits well into that huge market, whereas it doesnt fit well in many others. If we can utilize this effectively it seems like we should try it out.

Theres a lot great religious discussion around here, and a lot of heated arguing, maybe some projects in this area could help draw this section together more and give them/us another thing to consider working together on. We dont have to agree on everything, but I think there may be a lot of room to work together if we want to.

[cribbon]

I still do not think that going to religious group will have a great effect though. Of course i do not have any good studies on this but i would think that the probability of being overall positive to life extension in "this life" will be greater when you look elsewhere. You also have to remember that if you go to a religious community website or whatever to try to recruit you have to remember that those people are there for a very different reason. Since some there will think it is totally against their beliefs I think the probability of having positive attitudes overall will be smaller than for any average football community, linux community or [insert basicly whatever non-philisophic community]

Pure bigotry?
Perhaps, i cant say i have much tolerance for religious people. But it is still on the point, if you are religious you accept something very improbable without having even the slightest hint of evidence.
[codebox] faith
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.[/codebox] (thefreedictionary.com)

And though we are out of topic, you are making some really wierd claims yourself, ben. But lets leave that out and instead discuss the topic at hand.
Is religious crowds a good market? I think no. That purely from a perspective that there is probably a smaller percantage of positive people compared to mostly any other community.

[KalaBeth]

There are billions of religious people of all shapes and sizes, from hard cores, the closed mindeds, the hard core open minded, to mid ways, to the open minded general, to the wafflers, to the confused agnostics, to the hard core followers, to the easily swayable followers, and all kinds. It seems that the word Immortality is a key that fits well into that huge market, whereas it doesnt fit well in many others. If we can utilize this effectively it seems like we should try it out.

I think you need to more clearly define your goal.

Is it "to sway religious people from their core belief system to a different one?"
or is it "to secure joint cooperation on mutually beneficial projects?"

If the latter, you can find a great deal of cooperation focusing on the humanitarian goal of relieving human suffering.

If the former, I must agree with cribbon - by virtue of the fact they're dedicated in their beliefs enough to sign up for a religious forum, they're unlikely to be swayed by (from their perspective) yet another troll - hence it's a poor choice for a fishing hole, as it were.

[brokenportal]

Right, we can continue to discuss and adjust this all and see if we can line up a viable course of action. If not then we wouldnt recruit for this, if so, then we can enact this.

The goal would be less like these:
"to sway religious people from their core belief system to a different one"
"to secure joint cooperation on mutually beneficial projects"

and more like this:
To sway the open minded religious people, the wafflers, the confused agnostics, the swayable followers, the atheists and agnostics that go to those places to debate civily, and crowds like those.

Releiving suffering is a good point to try to sell them on. Then we would also want to work on points like that "God doesnt care when you die, and with indefinite life extension youll still eventually get a rogue disease or get hit by a bus or something like that." Then also we would want to work on the point that its ok to think this stuff is possible, but that agnosticism is the way to go. Then also the point that longer life gives us more opportunity to explore these concepts like god and if there really is one it allows more time to sway non beleivers and stuff like that.

As for being seen as potential trolls, we would work that out of this equation too. The internetworking team doesnt troll. We instruct our team members not to troll. We havent seen it yet but we would probably take them out of the team if they didnt heed warnings. What we do is go in to forums and help support this concept in topics that are talking about stuff like this, like transhumanism, or eternal life or whatever. We then dont name or link drop unless its a natural part of the discussion. The point is to keep the world engaged in dialogue about these concepts and not let them stay dormant in hidden corners. We also start topics on it where appropriate. An adjustment we can include in this is that we probably wouldnt want to go into forums with a religious topic, but probably go in to forums of other topics and find their religious and philosophy sections. If there is say a "Christian Science" forums, something like that might work too.

This is just one market though, we wouldnt pour a lot of resources in to this, but we could consider some, and it seems like it could be a good way to help keep the religious section here occupied with more things that can be productive for our shared cause of indefinite life extension.

[Ben Simon]

Pure bigotry?
Perhaps, i cant say i have much tolerance for religious people. But it is still on the point, if you are religious you accept something very improbable without having even the slightest hint of evidence.
faith
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

That definition of faith is problematic. If faith were merely belief by another name I would agree with you that people of faith have no interest in proof. I maintain that people of faith do have such an interest, as concerns empirical matters.

Religious faith has no empirical context, so it need not qualify. To be religious is to participate in a culture encompassing moral philosophies, ritual, mythology, etcetera. But... it is not concerned with empirically verifiable claims about the universe.

So the suggestion that religious people would not be interested in life extending science is, in my opinion, a misnomer.

Sure, there are a few religious zealots out there who are antagonistic toward science... but that's not because they are religious. It's because they are assholes.

Edited by ben, 31 October 2009 - 04:03 AM.

[exapted]

Religion is designed by the hands of evolutionary biology, memetic evolution, and perhaps even shaped by some sort of anthropic principle to be extremely obtuse. I'm not entirely against spiritual-like awe but I worry that introducing religious thought to transhumanism would cause transhumanists to become obtuse.

Transhumanism already replaces some positive aspects of the proto-religions from which modern religions evolved - transhumanism is a community and many of us have a sort of "spiritual awe" for what we are involved in. We don't need to adopt the corporate/obtuse/short-changing attitude that comes with modern religion. I don't pretend to describe every believer, I have respect for some of the ideas that have come out of modern religion, but in general I stand by what I have said here.

And if we don't adopt ideas from modern religion, I'm not sure how we could attract strong "believers" of modern religion to transhumanism. I say let religious people figure out their own way to be transhumanists. They'll be on board eventually, I guess.

Edited by exapted, 01 November 2009 - 08:22 AM.

[brokenportal]

Exapted,

Well, like you say, let the strong beleivers find their own way, but putting some reason kryptonite in the vicinty can help. We arent working to introduce religious thought to transhumanism. We are, well, its kind of like a democrat going in to a republican state and petitioning for votes. People that ride the republican fence can become democrats. In many cases its more like they succumb to religion because thats what was there and they never really thought about it. We kind of owe it to them to give them a chance to support this.

What we propose to look for, who we propose to meme to are the "open minded religious people, the wafflers, the confused agnostics, the swayable followers"

[exapted]

Exapted,

Well, like you say, let the strong beleivers find their own way, but putting some reason kryptonite in the vicinty can help. We arent working to introduce religious thought to transhumanism. We are, well, its kind of like a democrat going in to a republican state and petitioning for votes. People that ride the republican fence can become democrats. In many cases its more like they succumb to religion because thats what was there and they never really thought about it. We kind of owe it to them to give them a chance to support this.

What we propose to look for, who we propose to meme to are the "open minded religious people, the wafflers, the confused agnostics, the swayable followers"

Good point. My last post is probably a bit extreme or paranoid.

[cranquar]

I take much pleasure in entertaining the question at hand. I believe that one way or another it is essential that religious masses, specifically Christians become aligned with the concept of immortality simply because the Holy Scriptures instruct us to do so. I do not mean to be intrusive, however I do hope to share with the forum some scriptures I researched that made me believe that the creator designed us for, and intends for immortality to be the rule and not the exception. Please entertain the following compilation of scriptures and thought.

The Blessing of the Word of God - 08-23-05, 10:47 PM

Oh, to see the glory, and the passion of the blessing of the Word of God. To see God's loving gift of this glorious possession, to have it, own it, hold it, love it, nurture it, grow in it, and produce because of it. All the glory of the Word of God is with us now. May we forever hold it high above all earthly possessions. May it's fullfillment be made known througout all lands!


Have you considered these biblical statements on death? - 05-12-07, 02:50 AM

Have you considered these scriptural statements which speak of death???

I have set before you life or death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy 30:19). God has no pleasure in the death of him that dies, turn yourselves, and live ye (Ezekiel 18:32). The dead know not any thing, they have no reward; the memory of them is forgotten (Ecclesiastes 9:5). There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave. (Ecclesiastes 9: 10). God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matthew 22:32)

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction (Hosea 13:14). There shall be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain (Revelation 21:4). I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). O death where is thy sting: O grave where is thy victory? (1 Corinthians 15:55)

There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Proverbs 16:25). The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath (Proverbs 15:24). The law of the wise is a fountain of Life, to depart from the snares of death (Proverbs 13:14).

The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light (Ephesians 5:14). The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23). Lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called (1 Timothy 6:12).


ETERNAL LIFE

I BELIEVE, God made us, and equipped us to live immortal lives. Death is a result of our sins. The wages of sin is death. Sin is the culmination of the errors of our ways. Christ says we sin err because we do not know the scriptures nor the power of god. To do this we must study (to show thyself a workman of god…rightly dividing the word of truth). But we do not study because we lack faith, we lack faith because we have not heard the words of God calling us from death to everlasting life; calling us from inevitable death to inevitable eternal life.

Let us hear the Word of God...

SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS FOR EARS THAT HEAR

Apply thy heart unto instruction, and thy ears to the words of knowledge. PROVERBS 23: 12
The gift of God is eternal life. ROMANS 6:23
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I CORINTHIANS 15: 26
There shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain.
REVELATIONS 21:4
He that overcomes shall inherit all (these) things. REVELATIONS 21: 7
And the inhabitant shall not say I am sick. ISAIAH 33:24

I will build my church… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. MATTHEW 16: 18
The Lord was made after the power of an endless life. HEBREWS 7: 16
I have set before you life or death. DEUTERONOMY 30: 19
God has no pleasure in the death of him that dies, turn yourselves, and live ye. EZEKIEL 18:32
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: HOSEA 13: 14
It is appointed to men once to die. HEBREWS 9:27
I have said ye are gods, but ye shall die like men. PSALMS 82: 6, 7
By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin. ROMANS 5: 12
The wages of sin is death. ROMANS 6:23
Go and sin no more. JOHN 8: 11
Awake to righteousness, and sin not. I CORINTHIANS 15: 34
He that hears my word shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. JOHN 5: 24
Those who live and believe in me shall never die. Believe thou this?
JOHN 11: 26
Death and life are in the power of the tongue. PROVERBS 18: 21
By your words you will be justified or condemned. MATTHEW 12: 37
If you even say thou fool, you are in danger of hell fire.
MATTHEW 5: 23
The dead know not any thing, they have no reward; the memory of them is forgotten. ECCLESIASTES 9:5
There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave. ECCLESIASTES 9: 10
God is a not the God of the dead, but of the living. MATTHEW 22: 32
I am the resurrection, and the life. JOHN 11: 25
He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
JOHN 11: 25
And the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16
There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
ACTS 24: 15


All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth unto the resurrection. JOHN 5: 28,29
Awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light. EPHESIANS 5: 14
O death where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory? I CORINTHIANS 15:55
I give you power to tread on serpents…and over the power of the enemy. LUKE 10:19
Nothing by any means shall hurt you. LUKE 10:19
If they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them. MARK 16:18
Enemies will be confounded and ashamed. PSALMS 35:4
No weapons formed against you shall prosper ISAIAH 54: 17
Every tongue that rises against you in judgment shall be condemned ISAIAH 54: 17
This is life eternal, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ. JOHN 17: 3
I am their inheritance, I am their possession. EZEKIEL 44: 28
Lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called.
I TIMOTHY 6: 12
The truth will make you free. JOHN 8: 32
As thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. MATTHEW 8: 13
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. PROVERBS 15: 24
There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. PROVERBS 16:25
By faith women received their dead raised to life again.
HEBREWS 11: 35
There is no death in the pathway of the righteous. PROVERBS 12: 28
To them who… seek for glory, honor, and immortality; God will render eternal life. ROMANS 2: 6,7
According to your faith be it unto you. MATTHEW 9: 20
Nothing shall be impossible unto you. MATTHEW 17: 20
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death. PROVERBS 13: 14
This mortal must put on immortality. I CORINTHIANS 15: 53


They could not enter in because of unbelief.
HEBREWS 3: 19
But the fearful, unbelieving, murderers,…and all liars, shall have part in the lake of fire…REVELATION 21: 8

He who hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life.
I JOHN 3: 15
Because of unbelief they were broken off. ROMANS 11: 20

Wisdom is a tree of life. PROVERBS 3: 18
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: PROVERBS 15: 4

I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord.
Psalms 118:17

Hear the word, let not the cares, riches, and pleasures of this life choke the word. LUKE 8: 14
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. ROMANS 12: 2
Be renewed in the spirit of your mind. EPHESIANS 4: 23
The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: COLOSSIANS 3:10
Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus. PHILIPPIANS 2: 5
With God ALL things are possible. Mark 10: 27
If a man keeps my saying he shall never see death. John 8:51

Christ be formed in you. GALATIANS 4: 19

Conclusion:

Christ says the flesh can not inherit the kingdom (which is within us). We must be born again as life giving spirits. This re-birth comes through the renewing of our minds unto the re-identification of ourselves, not as being of flesh, but as being spirit, a spiritual being. But as mentioned before this requires focused study of and application of the word of God.

The scriptures say we are to learn and discern that which is good from that which is evil. Death is evil. Death is a result of sin, and it is an enemy to be destroyed. When we come to recognize this truth then we will exclude ourselves from that which deceives the whole world.

Though there is an appointed time for every man to die, we must be born again into life as life giving spirits, as gods. We die because of sinful lack of faith, not because our body cells aren’t able to infinitely regenerate, or because the body is unable to heal itself from disease or because we are not able to conquer any enemy.


One more thing to add...God has been proven to many people through personal miracles. When the weatherman said that the tornado was on the way, and the sirens went off, and I stood outside and spoke to the winds, and they calmed; and then the weathemen announced they did not know what happened to the tornado, I knew without a doubt the instructions of the Bible, and the power of God were real, alive and well. BTW, this is only one of many miracles I have witnessed due to my belief and following the teachings of Christ. My goal is to continue in my growth of experience, however I also know that accepting the goal of eternal, immortal life is the gateway to our creators idea of "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven."

Much love to all...

Cynthia
Thanks you for the inquiry...I wish you all well.

[brokenportal]

So your saying that maybe when the bible talks about life ever lasting that they mean indefinite life extension? What about that thing where they bring all the good back in a rapture or an apocalypse or something like that? Are you saying that might mean cloning people from their remaining DNA?

I dont think so, but its interesting to think about. It could be I suppose.

Also, your thing about the tornado isnt a proof for god. Tornados change direction on the drop of a dime. Thats what they do. Im reminded of another one I heard recently. A guy said he beleived in ghosts because he was sitting at a restaurant with a girl and the salt shaker went flying across the table. So now he beleives in ghosts? Jeebus Khrist, that sounds like something I would make happen when I was a kid. You tie a piece of fishing line to something, and then when people come over you make it move.

[Luna]

Happy life is like food/cigarette.
You plan to take only one snack/cigar, you eat/smoke, you enjoy, you want more, you come for another.. and another.. and another..

At least that's how most people, in my case I just get sick when someone smokes near me, but food is a winner ^^

You take the pill. you are healthy, you feel great, you live every day, you take another pill, you keep living.. you take another pill.. unless you choose to die (and people rarely do that) you just keep in the cycle.
You might actually keep in the cycle just because some doctor told you it's your turn on the "pill that makes you HEALTHY". You don't think about how long you live much when you do it. Well sometimes.

Don't talk about life extension, talk about health and happiness like Kate said, that's what I been saying all the time. That way people will like you.
Take the war on cancer as an example, people WANT cancer and other diseases CURED, it's not that they don't want to live forever (well, some might), it's how they been educated - brainwashed that there is not enough food, space on earth, energy, too many people, selfishness? being tired, nothing new, bored already..

People are generally animals who think, thinking makes them think they are superior, mostly they are just stupid and influenced by instincts like most animals.
If you feel sick, you will rarely disagree to take a cure. When actually facing life and death situations, you will take it by instinct without being able to think much about it.
So if we offer a vaccine to make a person immune to all diseases, they will take it - not thinking too much about it.
If we offer a vaccine to make you young forever they will probably take it too, because it's
A) Not translated at the moment to "live forever" for most persons.
B) It is offered to you, you are not asked "is it good for people to live forever?" "is it.. bla bla bla" YOU *ARE* offered it.
C) It's here "What - am I stupid?" Once it's here, everyone takes it, "if I won't cause over-population someone else will" or "I won't be the one causing over population" (reminds you of don't throw garbage at the park maybe?).. we better solve over population without letting people die! how's the weather on the moon nowdays?

[Luna]

So your saying that maybe when the bible talks about life ever lasting that they mean indefinite life extension? What about that thing where they bring all the good back in a rapture or an apocalypse or something like that? Are you saying that might mean cloning people from their remaining DNA?

I dont think so, but its interesting to think about. It could be I suppose.

Also, your thing about the tornado isnt a proof for god. Tornados change direction on the drop of a dime. Thats what they do. Im reminded of another one I heard recently. A guy said he beleived in ghosts because he was sitting at a restaurant with a girl and the salt shaker went flying across the table. So now he beleives in ghosts? Jeebus Khrist, that sounds like something I would make happen when I was a kid. You tie a piece of fishing line to something, and then when people come over you make it move.

Quite a few religious people here said this before actually.

Please note, most religious people DO NOT FOLLOW their religion or book - usually. (or mostly)

Yesterday (or two days ago) I noticed something and had to ask. There is a holiday in Israel called Hanukah, mom and her boyfriend (he used to be religious) wanted to candle the holiday lamp (well it's more of a tradition you might do for fun anyways).
Mom's boyfriend said the blessing, where I noticed it says that god "commanded us" to light the lamp. I asked him "when did god command us!?" this holiday isn't even in the book! he just laughed and said.. "no.. nevermind.."
There was a book, people at one time might have followed it properly. Then the people in control changed a thing here, a thing there, started wearing black coats and hats, growing beards, claimed you need to have like 14 kids with one woman and the first one by the age of 19 or so..
All things to fit THEIR need, their opinions. So there was a war, a "miracle" happened so a holiday started and then suddenly they make it appear as if god told us to do so.
The 11th of September is a good example, you start with this and then it turns symbolic and then the religious people might adopt it and you suddenly get all sort of religious chantings at that date.

Recently there was an article at this forum about how some small country/city of muslims beat women for wearing jeans and men for shaving their facial hair.
But I know quite a bit of muslims who shaved.. so it's all about where and who is in control that changes the very same religion to fit their benefit.

[valkyrie_ice]

Ben will accuse me of being a religion hater, but BP, you need to realize something critical.

The Judaic Religions are our enemy. Period. End of Discussion. They will never accept unlimited life extension. The closer we come to it, the more they will fight it.


Judaic Religion is based of the concept of immortality. Judaic Religion claims to be the SOLE SOURCE of immortality. They have been the long term answer to our drive to live longer. By promising an "afterlife" they grant immortality to "believers"

Individuals of whatever religion may ally with the life extension movement, but it's likely most religious orders themselves will attempt to destroy the life extension movement.

If you can life indefinitely, why would you need to worry about an "afterlife", why would you need "priests" to Shepard you into Heaven?, Why would you need to worry about your immortal soul when you have an immortal body?

God tossed Adam out of the Garden to prevent him from eating from the Tree of Life and becoming immortal, remember? Despite the well chosen words Miss Cynthia provided, God as he is shown time and again in the bible is dead set against man being immortal on any terms but his.

Individuals may be won. The organization itself will try to destroy us.

[Luna]

Uhh.. Jewish religion does NOT believe in after life at all.

There is only one person in the jewish bible that "ascended", I forgot who it was, I think it was said god liked him (as a person) or was impressed with him and allowed him to ascend.
I don't remember the jewish having a soul at all, afterlife is never mentioned in the jewish religious. I am pretty sure of that and have asked quite a few jewish people (I have a lot of them in Israel!) and they so far confirmed this.

It is muslims and christians that have afterlife.

Instead, the jewish believe in resurrection of the dead, which will start at the temple in Jerusalem and supposedly spread from there to everywhere else.

In the jewish culture, soul isn't the soul people usually think of but rather the person, the emotional spirit, desire.. the consciousness.

http://en.wikipedia....terlife#Judaism
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Soul#Judaism

Wiki seems to agree with me! :D

[valkyrie_ice]

Uhh.. Jewish religion does NOT believe in after life at all.

There is only one person in the jewish bible that "ascended", I forgot who it was, I think it was said god liked him (as a person) or was impressed with him and allowed him to ascend.
I don't remember the jewish having a soul at all, afterlife is never mentioned in the jewish religious. I am pretty sure of that and have asked quite a few jewish people (I have a lot of them in Israel!) and they so far confirmed this.

It is muslims and christians that have afterlife.

Instead, the jewish believe in resurrection of the dead, which will start at the temple in Jerusalem and supposedly spread from there to everywhere else.

In the jewish culture, soul isn't the soul people usually think of but rather the person, the emotional spirit, desire.. the consciousness.

http://en.wikipedia....terlife#Judaism
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Soul#Judaism




Wiki seems to agree with me! :D

Interesting. Not what I was told, but I will accept your better knowledge. I was probably given a rather skewed version considering my source was a "converted"

However, Enoch was not the sole ascension, as supposedly Moses and Elijah did as well

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 14 December 2009 - 01:26 PM.

[Luna]

Moses died and was buried according to the bible I think. (Checked wiki too!) I forgot about Elijah, you are right.

[valkyrie_ice]

Moses died and was buried according to the bible I think. (Checked wiki too!) I forgot about Elijah, you are right.

Had to look it up again. I am not doing well on my bible trivia today. been too many decades since I actually looked at old testament. XD

Still I think my original point stands. Jehovah forbade immortality to Adam. There's no reason to assume support of radical life extension from the Judaic religion either.

[brokenportal]

Ben will accuse me of being a religion hater, but BP, you need to realize something critical.

The Judaic Religions are our enemy. Period. End of Discussion. They will never accept unlimited life extension. The closer we come to it, the more they will fight it.

You need to realized something critical, that you should probably try to not talk in absolutes as often as you can. Absolutes can tend to unecessarily tie statements down and digress the arguement in to tangents and things.

Extreme religion poses a danger. However, these megolithic societal structures are weakening in this tech and information and interconnected time and age. They are like huge glaciers slowly weaking from the heat, ready cracking little by little, softening, breaking off and falling in to the ocean more and more.

Every where you used to turn, everybody was praising god, and praying to god, and rock solid for god, all the time. Already now you can see the decline, there are people everywhere saying they are agnostic. We cant just, flip a switch and have them all stop being religious, have every temple and every church turned in to a meeting hall, or marketing branch, or research center for the indefinite life extension cause. However, like they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

If we dont fight them, if we just continue to befriend them, I think that our proximity to them will continue to melt away at those glacial foundations that have been supporting that construct for so very very long. I mean, another thing I see, is more and more religious people admitting that they are just in it for the morality of it. If many churches and temples stick around, but they are mostly just people in it for the morality of it, then thats better than fighting them, or having them remain extreme, and, they continue to soften. But lets just say they are more like secret agnostics who love the morality of it, then thats a success. Not a complete success, but on its way and maybe even good enough.

Also, they are filled with fence sitters and wafflers and under cover agnostics and the like. Religion is like the market place for most of the world. Lets go there. Lets set up our indefinite life extension stand in the market. Lets give the worlds biggest market a chance to support our services and join us. Lets give the worlds biggest market, that is already used to the meme of immortality and or indefinite life extension, a chance to support our services and join us. As we do this, I think we will be able to continue to help thaw out that super glacier that once was a hearty and steadfast religious empire, and continue to collect their run off for this cause, rather than fighting them.

I could be wrong though, Im just saying, thats what I see and hear and read.

[valkyrie_ice]

Ben will accuse me of being a religion hater, but BP, you need to realize something critical.

The Judaic Religions are our enemy. Period. End of Discussion. They will never accept unlimited life extension. The closer we come to it, the more they will fight it.

You need to realized something critical, that you should probably try to not talk in absolutes as often as you can. Absolutes can tend to unecessarily tie statements down and digress the arguement in to tangents and things.

Extreme religion poses a danger. However, these megolithic societal structures are weakening in this tech and information and interconnected time and age. They are like huge glaciers slowly weaking from the heat, ready cracking little by little, softening, breaking off and falling in to the ocean more and more.

Every where you used to turn, everybody was praising god, and praying to god, and rock solid for god, all the time. Already now you can see the decline, there are people everywhere saying they are agnostic. We cant just, flip a switch and have them all stop being religious, have every temple and every church turned in to a meeting hall, or marketing branch, or research center for the indefinite life extension cause. However, like they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

If we dont fight them, if we just continue to befriend them, I think that our proximity to them will continue to melt away at those glacial foundations that have been supporting that construct for so very very long. I mean, another thing I see, is more and more religious people admitting that they are just in it for the morality of it. If many churches and temples stick around, but they are mostly just people in it for the morality of it, then thats better than fighting them, or having them remain extreme, and, they continue to soften. But lets just say they are more like secret agnostics who love the morality of it, then thats a success. Not a complete success, but on its way and maybe even good enough.

Also, they are filled with fence sitters and wafflers and under cover agnostics and the like. Religion is like the market place for most of the world. Lets go there. Lets set up our indefinite life extension stand in the market. Lets give the worlds biggest market a chance to support our services and join us. Lets give the worlds biggest market, that is already used to the meme of immortality and or indefinite life extension, a chance to support our services and join us. As we do this, I think we will be able to continue to help thaw out that super glacier that once was a hearty and steadfast religious empire, and continue to collect their run off for this cause, rather than fighting them.

I could be wrong though, Im just saying, thats what I see and hear and read.

Actually BP, when it comes to religion, my primary training was as a clergyman. I went to a Christian school, was trained in creationist "science", and was pursuing training to become a pastor. It broke my mothers heart that I became a skeptic and agnostic instead of the fire and brimstone preacher she wanted me to be.

Individuals, yes. The Organization? Once they realize that life extension isn't fantasy and is in fact a very real possibility? Indefinite life extension will not be welcomed. It's an insult to God, trying to live beyond your god given years. It flies in absolute negation of seeking heavenly rewards. You will see it decried as the ultimate sin, the unlimited license to sin, the sure bringer of gods wrath on mankind. You'll find them attacking it from every evangelical pulpit out there, and probably condemned by the pope as heresy.

Will there be numerous Christian individuals who will embrace life extension? Of course. As individuals. But considering how hard it is to even get gay rights or allow women free choice, or even to allow science to utilize embryonic stem cells?

Once it becomes clear life extension of the kind we are talking of is possible, expect the religious right to come down on us like a pack of frenzied dogs. It will be their last ditch effort to remain viable. they won't have a choice. Immortals don't need an afterlife. It's us or them and they will realize it.

[KalaBeth]

Everybody wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die...

With respect, while some sects may act just so I doubt very much that all - or even a sizable majority - will.

Most religious folk in the US are not that different from their neighbors, and perfectly happy to partake of whatever new fruits science, engineering, and commerce provide. As AdG has pointed out in his talks, we already extend life through all manner of medicines and surgeries - and you'll find a pastor just as likely as anyone else to say "yes please" when the doc says it's time for a triple bypass if he wants to stay on this side of side of the dirt.

Thus, I don't see that much resistance to even indefinite life extension from religious folk*. Some will think it just another cool development of the modern age, others will see it as prophecy fulfilled, and some very few will do the Christian Scientist thing and forgo it on religious grounds. But I doubt many at all will fight it**.

Now things might get a little more dicey when you start talking uploading and suchlike, but since "indefinite lifespan" does not equal "incapable of death" I don't see the religious conception of the afterlife even necessarily changing that much, much less being threatened.

Once you do get into some kind of uploading you'll probably have a great deal of skittishness from both religious and non-religious folk alike.

On the one hand "many are the rooms in my father's house" - again you'll likely see some folk see it as the fulfillment of prophecy. Other religious folk decidedly won't - probably seeing it as a deception or substitution of God. But so long as no one's getting forced into the uploading booth or whatever it is, I doubt you'll see more than sermons and the occasional streetside march.

Both factions will probably be dwarfed by those that regardless of their religious persuasion that just find the whole thing too weird and want nothing to do with it.

How that will all play out, well... "view hazy. ask again later."






=====================
* I suspect we'll see a little more resistance from the more hardcore elements of the green movement who don't want even as many people as we have already on the earth walking and talking, but when it comes right down to it "for me but not for thee" doesn't work to well I suspect they too would be willing to let it go through so long as they and theirs get the ambrosia to.

** Just as in most cases, religious opposition to abortion and embryonic stem cell research isn't out of some kind of "gosh, I hate Science" credo, it's because they believe you're killing something - or rather someone - in both instances. If you could say "well how about I take the baby out of her and grow it up in an artificial womb for adoption later" and "how about we find a way to do this work with adult stem cells" you'll find resistance to both dropping like crazy. Not universally true, but much lower than you see now.

Edited by KalaBeth, 15 December 2009 - 05:50 PM.

[Ben Simon]

Ben will accuse me of being a religion hater, but BP, you need to realize something critical.

The Judaic Religions are our enemy. Period. End of Discussion. They will never accept unlimited life extension. The closer we come to it, the more they will fight it.

No need. You wear your fanaticism and ignorance on your sleeve.

I am, as always, ready and willing to consider any evidence you wish to provide to support your position. So far, none to speak of.

[valkyrie_ice]

Ben will accuse me of being a religion hater, but BP, you need to realize something critical.

The Judaic Religions are our enemy. Period. End of Discussion. They will never accept unlimited life extension. The closer we come to it, the more they will fight it.

No need. You wear your fanaticism and ignorance on your sleeve.

I am, as always, ready and willing to consider any evidence you wish to provide to support your position. So far, none to speak of.

Incorrect. Has been presented, you simply choose to dismiss it because you disagree, and offered no rational but "you're wrong"

Am I anti-religious? Hell yes. Because I was raised and force fed this BS from my earliest memories. That I had the intelligence to see through the contradictions and lies simply speaks for how blinkered you have chosen to be. If I could see through it, anyone can, provided they are willing to actually READ THEIR FRIGGIN HOLY BOOK as a book, and not with the preconceived notion that it must be okay if it's written in THERE.

If 3/4 of Christians KNEW what the Bible actually says instead of relying on others to tell them, there would be a lot fewer Christian hypocrites and a lot more actual Christians.

[valkyrie_ice]

Everybody wants to go to heaven, nobody wants to die...

With respect, while some sects may act just so I doubt very much that all - or even a sizable majority - will.

Re-read my post.

Individuals will likely choose to support ILE, I am unconcerned with individuals.

It is the organized institutions which will realize how destructive to their teachings ILE is that will fight it tooth and nail.

Some individuals will undoubtedly find ways to accommodate ILE. Many will simply accept their leaders words and fight it as ignorantly as the tea baggers have fought for their corporate lobbyist organizers. Many will see immortality as a moral outrage, because if you never die, how can you pay for your sins? Therefore immortality will simply be a license for immorality. Others will claim it is a violation of God's Will.

Between the Malthusian Greenpeacers and the religious right, I expect enormous debate, as well as quite a bit of radical terrorism, against ILE supporters.

[Ben Simon]

Incorrect. Has been presented, you simply choose to dismiss it because you disagree, and offered no rational but "you're wrong"

Link please?

That I had the intelligence to see through the contradictions and lies simply speaks for how blinkered you have chosen to be.

You are indeed a shining example of intelligence.

But blinkered by what exactly? You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that you know my opinion on the bible, Christianity and religion in general. I'm deeply critical of religion. I just happen to think your criticisms are facile and ideologically biased. See?

If I could see through it, anyone can, provided they are willing to actually READ THEIR FRIGGIN HOLY BOOK as a book, and not with the preconceived notion that it must be okay if it's written in THERE.

Are you including me amongst those you perceive to think this way, or simply wandering off topic? I can't tell. Surely you can't have gotten the impression that I am guilty of such preconceptions, as I've never given you cause, and I know that you would never jump to conclusions in the absence of evidence to support your casually made assertions.

If 3/4 of Christians KNEW what the Bible actually says instead of relying on others to tell them, there would be a lot fewer Christian hypocrites and a lot more actual Christians.

Correct. Also would have accepted 4/4, 1/4 or a pie chart.