29 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Tune in to the Sunday Evening Update on November 29th to hear perspectives on life, death, and bioethics in the 21st century from Brown University Professor of Philosophy Felicia Nimue Ackerman.

Research profile can be found here.

[brokenportal]

This should be good. Ide really like to hear philosophy professors dig in to this. Maybe Ackerman can be convinced to help us network with more philosophy people, students, professors, and other contacts she likely has. We could work out something to facilitate such a possibility, like hold a round table and invite professors to discuss this that way, maybe in a topic, maybe live in skype or something like that.

[modelcadet]

brokenportal, on Nov 5 2009, 10:17 PM, said:

This should be good. Ide really like to hear philosophy professors dig in to this. Maybe Ackerman can be convinced to help us network with more philosophy people, students, professors, and other contacts she likely has. We could work out something to facilitate such a possibility, like hold a round table and invite professors to discuss this that way, maybe in a topic, maybe live in skype or something like that.

I love the idea of holding a conference (it gives me more good stuff to listen to at work).  We could really dig into the philosophical issues holding progress back, and develop a better foundation for our movement.   I'd love to point out the sex of this professor; we definitely need more female life-extensionists (and transhumanists generally). Everybody post questions for Professor Ackerman!

Would you use a Star Trek teleporter? Why or why not?  

What is your position on what David Chalmers calls "the hard problem of consciousness?"  Do you favor materialism, dualism, panprotopsychism, or something else?  And how does this position shape your conception of death?

Are you signed up for cryonics?

Everybody leave more questions!  Not only will this give Mind material for his interview, but could provide a framework for a larger conference on the philosophical issues surrounding longevity.

[niner]

Congratulations to Mind for obtaining another heavy hitter!  Here is an article where Felicia Ackerman discusses issues surrounding immortality.  Maybe people should take a look at it as a way of focusing their thoughts and questions.

[brokenportal]

Thats a great find Niner, I read through this book excerpt.

“The blanket presumption that the latter states [of poverty, pain, ill health] bring ‘misery’ that is worse than death is disrespectful to those who, having experienced them, disagree.” –Ackerman

I love this quote. It’s a great tool to use against those people that say, “Old people are happy to die, they are greatful for what they had and happy for their long productive lives, and they are happy to put a final chapter on the book, and complete their lives and go off in to their much deserved sleep, and have the chance to brave the great new worlds of the unknown, they arent immature like you, they want death.” (<---<<<??!!)

Ackerman goes over how Leon Kass talks about diminishing interest and engagement. Kass illustrates that the Don Juans, for example, wouldn’t have any real need to desire longer lives so they could increase the 1,000 number of woman they have seduced, to 1,250. The Kass’s talk about how repetition gets old, and that a person can only do any things, like watch so many reruns of their favorite shows and things like that.

People though can, I and many others say, and ought to try to expand their horizons as much as they can, and consciously try to desire more out of life, and purposefully try to set greater and greater, and or more and more deep and profound goals. That is why many of us think its important to incorporate the big 8in to peoples thinking patterns. These produce an effect that Vicktor Frankl calls Logo Therapy. Other cultures like the Japanese call this concept Ikaigai. The premise is basically that those that have a grander purpose to want to live are those that tend to survive. Frankl was in a concentration camp during WWII and outlines how those who tended to survive were the ones that had a greater purpose they wanted to get back to. Maybe a book they were writing, a wife they loved dearly, a research project , or invention they wanted to finish, etc… He noted that those who tended to die more easily, though in the same conditions as those that tended to survive, were the ones who didn’t have anything to press on for, to fight for, to want to see through. The big 8 sums up, contains all those things we can want to fight for and see through.

Ackermans quoting seems to be getting at and supporting this same notion. Ackerman quotes as follows:
“The perceived value of endless life could well be closely related to the general type of person one is and the sort of life one chooses to live.” – C. Overall

The following quote is another great point, besides having something to want to live extended periods of time for, besides having a good reason to fight, people also need to know that its realizable.
“The value of life extension will depend on whether the plan is realizable.” –Gems

And it is realizable. For one, world support makes the science happen faster, and we can make the world support happen faster. Then another great example is, as outlined by ‘longevity escape velocity',  (discussion here) we only need to live long enough for the first life extending breakthroughs to get us through the next couple of decades until the next breakthroughs arrive and so on.

“Why should we be defining humans in terms of our limitations rather than by our ability to supersede our limitations?” –Kurzweil

Ah, what a beautiful point. Ackerman quotes this in this book.

Ackerman outlined that its P. Singer (I wasn’t sure who outlined this before) who talks about over population not being an issue because people have kids spread out more over time, and that under population may even become a problem.

A lot of deathists and pro aging trancists say things like that this isn’t natural, we are playing god, they will never let us take away the ability to have kids, we must let the unborn have a chance, etc…The book goes over how there is the option to choose: have  kids, or get therapies. I think this notion is yet to pervade the discussions with the deathists and trancists enough. I mean, that’s it in a nut shell right there isn’t it? And we can always have a small part of the population reproducing to keep it going, and to keep some kids around for a variety of reasons, and stuff like that. We will also need them to fill in the continued death rate, which we wont get to vanish over night, if ever.

We need Ackerman around here. I wonder if she would be willing to structure and add some formatting to the philosophy section. She could perhaps consider having students write papers that we give awards to, and we would publish them here. She could consider heading up a bi monthly round table in the chat or something like that, and we could save it in the philosophy forum, or something like that. There are many beneficial possibilities in a union that can help this cause continue on its exponential acceleration towards world wide support, and the research breakthroughs that can get us to the goal of indefinite healthy life extension for all.

I cant wait for this interview. This has rekindled my great passion for the benefits that the philosophy of indefinite life extension provide.

[Mind]

Congratulations should go to primarily to Dfowler who reached Ackerman through the VIP outreach project.

Thanks for the questions and additional information.

[brokenportal]

I was thinking this was today. Scratch those invites. We can still meet there today for anybody interested though.

[advancedatheist]

brokenportal, on Nov 6 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

Ackerman goes over how Leon Kass talks about diminishing interest and engagement. Kass illustrates that the Don Juans, for example, wouldn’t have any real need to desire longer lives so they could increase the 1,000 number of woman they have seduced, to 1,250. The Kass’s talk about how repetition gets old, and that a person can only do any things, like watch so many reruns of their favorite shows and things like that.

I guess Kass hasn't studied the subculture of pickup artists very closely.

Quote

The premise is basically that those that have a grander purpose to want to live are those that tend to survive. Frankl was in a concentration camp during WWII and outlines how those who tended to survive were the ones that had a greater purpose they wanted to get back to. Maybe a book they were writing, a wife they loved dearly, a research project , or invention they wanted to finish, etc… He noted that those who tended to die more easily, though in the same conditions as those that tended to survive, were the ones who didn’t have anything to press on for, to fight for, to want to see through.

Eh, that gets into woo territory, like the positive thinking cult Barbara Ehrenreich has criticized lately after seeing how much of it had infiltrated the treatment of breast cancer when she came down with the disease a few years ago. (She has a Ph.D. in cell biology, and her study of the scientific literature on the health effects of positive thinking didn't impress her.) I suspect Frankl's perception of the psychology of Holocaust survivors reflects confirmation bias.

[brokenportal]

advancedatheist, on Nov 8 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

I guess Kass hasn't studied the subculture of pickup artists very closely.

It seems not. Im sure quagmire would go for another 250 giggidies.

advancedatheist, on Nov 8 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

Eh, that gets into woo territory, like the positive thinking cult Barbara Ehrenreich has criticized lately after seeing how much of it had infiltrated the treatment of breast cancer when she came down with the disease a few years ago. (She has a Ph.D. in cell biology, and her study of the scientific literature on the health effects of positive thinking didn't impress her.) I suspect Frankl's perception of the psychology of Holocaust survivors reflects confirmation bias.

Well, it doesnt seem to be about positivity so much as it is about looking forward to things. I guess now that you bring up the point, come to think of it, a negative pessimist it seems would harness this "logo therapy" just the same. You know, this kind of thing: "Rrrgg, I cant wait to get into the future so I can fly to mars and show that dang Bob Jones that there are the building blocks of uracil in the dust."

Also, think about it, many of these pessimists, or skeptics, or cynics and people like those, think things similar to, that eating, sleeping, ranching and complaining about politics is all there is to life. They never think about what it would be like to live a long time, and why would they want to really? Sure some of those people that just focus on a few things like that might want indefinite life extension, but Ide be willing to bet the percentages are much lower for people like that than for people who think about goals that they would like to have that short lives wouldnt allow them. Could be wrong I guess.

Edited by brokenportal, 13 November 2009 - 01:53 AM.

[bacopa]

I'm very excited about this interview too.  It appears Prof. Ackerman's views on immortality are precisely the same as mine.  I do believe we will beat the boredom problem when we have lived long enough, (through life extension therapies), to forsee the future of nanotech.  I can only imagine how interesting and pleasurable life will be when we can engineer vastly more complex brains through chips or uploading, and if we want to, I don't see why we can't engineer much more intense moods of sublime happiness and gradients of euphoria and well being, like David Pearce talks so much about.  Basically when we are advanced enough, I don't see why we can't tweak the right things through advanced technologies to create an optimal conscious experience...even if it's done through hardware tech.

[brokenportal]

dfowler, on Nov 12 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

I'm very excited about this interview too.  It appears Prof. Ackerman's views on immortality are precisely the same as mine.  I do believe we will beat the boredom problem when we have lived long enough, (through life extension therapies), to forsee the future of nanotech.  I can only imagine how interesting and pleasurable life will be when we can engineer vastly more complex brains through chips or uploading, and if we want to, I don't see why we can't engineer much more intense moods of sublime happiness and gradients of euphoria and well being, like David Pearce talks so much about.  Basically when we are advanced enough, I don't see why we can't tweak the right things through advanced technologies to create an optimal conscious experience...even if it's done through hardware tech.

Of course, singularity, and tech advances and things like that are a great reason to want to live longer, but i was thinking about this the other day and looking at where singularity and all that fits in to the big 8:

To know:
- the nature of infinity
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions or whatever there may be.
- to know the all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- to fulfill all goals that time brings you to want, resteraunt owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy (which causes a bunch of things, philosophy to work its self out, the best good for all etc..)


I realized its just a small part of the big 8. Then it came to me, its fairly obvious I guess, but it hadnt occured to me directly until then, that we dont neccessarily need singularity and major tech advance first, to get indefinite lifespans, and that in fact, it seems that getting indefinite lifespans before this tech explosion and potential singularity might be the best way to go, because then older, longer living, wiser people, with societies run by less new learning naive testosterone and ego driven generations, would have more time and wisdom and ability to help work out a careful, thoughtful, safe tech expansion and singularity.

Every where you go you see people freaking out about singularity, "the robots will kill us" "theres  no aliens because they all destroy themselves once they reach the kind of tech advancements that would allow them to explore the universe" "it will throw off the balance of nature so much we will face reprocussions we cant even predict as we rush in." "jack asses will get their hands on this technology and use it for destruction." etc.. etc... etc..

Of course, maybe they are right, doesnt this lend even more credence to the idea of indefinite life extension now?



Remember to stop by next sunday for this every body, its live at imminst.org/tv.

[brokenportal]

Please RSVP here.

This is going to be another good one.

[Shannon Vyff]

I'm hoping to attend-- thanks Devon for setting this up, what time will this be aired in the UK?

[Mind]

ShannonVyff, on Nov 27 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

I'm hoping to attend-- thanks Devon for setting this up, what time will this be aired in the UK?

It will be on late in the UK, 2300 I think, If my time conversion is accurate, UK=5 hours ahead of US Eastern.

[Mind]

If you cannot attend the live interview in 1.5 hours, please leave any philosophical-related life extension questions here in the forum and I will see if I can fit them into the interview.

[brokenportal]

The room shows chat room is filling up now, come one, come all, this is going to be another great show. This one has a philosophy twist.

http://imminst.org/tv

[Cyberbrain]

I'll try to attend, in any case make sure it's recorded too.

[brokenportal]

The show is on live now.

[CerebralCortex]

Do you record the shows?

[brokenportal]

yes, many of the main ones are indexed at imminst.org/tv, and we are trying to get them all in to youtube.com/immortalityorg

[Mind]

Direct link to the video here.

Ackerman was "a breath of fresh air", as one audience member stated, because her advocacy for life extension is bold. The interview covers many of the arguments she wrote in the Oxford Bioethics Handbook, linked previously by Niner. She was very cogent. I apologize for not being on "my game" as much as I would hope. I kind-of fumbled through a couple of the questions.

My favorite statement by Ackerman was (in reference to the boredom argument against the pursuit of life extension) "Let me get this straight, I should die because you are going to get bored?"

[Luna]

Mind, on Nov 30 2009, 12:07 AM, said:

My favorite statement by Ackerman was (in reference to the boredom argument against the pursuit of life extension) "Let me get this straight, I should die because you are going to get bored?"

That's what I said to fatboy! :D I like her already ^^

Too bad I missed it! watching the record now

[JediMasterLucia]

Mind, on Nov 30 2009, 01:07 AM, said:

My favorite statement by Ackerman was (in reference to the boredom argument against the pursuit of life extension) "Let me get this straight, I should die because you are going to get bored?"

that is a good one. I have to remember this quote

the show was very interesting. I have to read the link to her google docs.

[Mind]

Another Op Ed piece by Felicia - cogently arguing for greatly extended lifespans.

Edited by Mind, 10 May 2010 - 07:51 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

That was great! She is a breath of fresh air! I love that quote, "Let me get this straight, I should die because you are bored?"

[Shannon Vyff]

I'd like to point out that life extension can be quite rational, even extreme life extension and talks like this show how the subject could appeal to a more mainstream view.

[brokenportal]

I was searching for imminsts traffic ranking and I came across a few things that I thought were great news and inspiring, one was an excerpt posted as an article at Times Online that I posted about here: http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry407093


The other was Minds interview with Felicia Nimue Ackerman. It made its way on to this World News website.

http://article.wn.co...th_greatly_ext/

I thought this was all excellent and I cant help but feel like there must be so much more out there that a lot of us dont know about yet as well. When we say the small things add up, we mean it, keep up the great work. I think theres a good chance we might be able to inform the whole world about this cause in even less than 5 years.

I see at alexa.com (website ranking & statistics site) that the website the first link was found at, timesonline, is the 31rst most popular website in the UK and ranks highly in many other countries.  
The World News website didnt seem to rank to highly, but highly enough, its on the map.

[chulhee]

brokenportal, on Nov 29 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

yes, many of the main ones are indexed at imminst.org/tv, and we are trying to get them all in to youtube.com/immortalityorg

that's great :D
http://www.softwareoutsourcing.biz
software outsourcing

[bacopa]

it's great to see the VIP team made somewhat of a dent in this difficult battle!

[christine joseph]

hi!
love the quote "Let me get this straight, I should die because you are going to get bored?". This is very genuine quote and always meet to your life way.