230 replies to this topic

[Werner]

There is no question that you need carbs. But the right carbs, not
the wrong ones. Right carbs = fruits, wrong carbs = cakes.

Carbs are carbs are carbs. All carbs are basically poly-glucose chains, or fiber.

What we really mean by "good carbs" are nutrient dense/water-dense plant foods, like salad-type carbs. There's actually very little carb content in these foods, typically less than 5-8% of total weight by volume. Really, we're eating water and fiber mostly with most of these so-called good carbs. And that's why they're good--carb content is minimal (and they often have meaningful nutrient value -- but so do bad "carbs" like most large fruits).

ALL carbs are pro-aging, because glucose is pro-aging. So, I only consider plant foods worthy of eating only if the nutrient value exceeds the negative inflammation, insulin-release (insulin itself is pro-aging), and glycation damage--purely subjective, I know. For example, I consider potatoes a net-negative (too little nutritional value versus the pro-aging effects). I do cheat with potatoes occasionally, but I do consider it a cheat.

Why is an orange a healthy nutrient and a cake an unhealthy
one? Both contain carbohydrates. The difference is made by
other substances in the orange that make it perfectly digestable.
(If someone has diffuculty to digest oranges it is not the fruit but
a disturbed metabolism). Oranges have a lot of carbohydrates
or dried figs even more without any water.
I do not agree with your opinion that carbs as a whole are
pro-aging. Take bread for instance. It is very very pro-aging.
Fruits instead are anti-aging because they do not have any
substance that is promoting inflammation and more or less no
lectins or phytates. They have enzymes, fiber, flavonoids.
Potatoes are pro-aging due to their phytate and lectin content.

[idquest]

I have a big 'ol mango tree in my yard. It was very productive in the 2011 season. I'm still dubious about labeling fruits as bad carbs. This new article at ergo-log put me at ease though and they make their position clear. Fruits are not the devils people want to make them out to be. In this article, they found that eating mangos reduced blood sugar concentration by increases levels of adiponectin. This is ideal for Diabetics and it's used in Africa as a traditional treatment for it. This makes me feel better about my 10+ mango a day binge when in season.

Mango: load up with carbs and reduce fat at the same time

I know this is personal, but I have some kind of condition when if I eat too much of sugar (in any form, fruit/white shugar/honey) I develope an acney-like inflammation in my ear. So my ear is sort of a sensor of my sugar consumption. I can attest that one mango immediately results in high intensity flare of this condition for me. I have very little if any response from eating one apple/pear/10 figs. So for me personally one mango is much worse than other fruits. I don't attribute this to the possible allergy to mangoes because this ear condition is responsive to sugars.

Why is an orange a healthy nutrient and a cake an unhealthy
one? Both contain carbohydrates. The difference is made by
other substances in the orange that make it perfectly digestable.
(If someone has diffuculty to digest oranges it is not the fruit but
a disturbed metabolism). Oranges have a lot of carbohydrates
or dried figs even more without any water.
I do not agree with your opinion that carbs as a whole are
pro-aging. Take bread for instance. It is very very pro-aging.
Fruits instead are anti-aging because they do not have any
substance that is promoting inflammation and more or less no
lectins or phytates. They have enzymes, fiber, flavonoids.
Potatoes are pro-aging due to their phytate and lectin content.

Werner, you are the only one here who talks about cakes and candy. I'm sure everybody else here agrees that candy is tasty toxin only (with the possible exception of 90% dark chocolate?). What members in this community try to understand is what should be a mix of the daily consumption of carbs from rice-like carbs, fruits, vegetables.

BTW, I'm reading a book of Paul Jaminet (spelling?) now, he maintains that carbs in vegetables, which is largerly fiber, are eventually metabolized to fats in intestines and are utilized by a body. He concludes that carbs from fibrouse plants are benefitial and should not be counted in the total carbs for the purposes of caluclation of carbs proportion. Any comments on that?

[Shepard]

BTW, I'm reading a book of Paul Jaminet (spelling?) now, he maintains that carbs in vegetables, which is largerly fiber, are eventually metabolized to fats in intestines and are utilized by a body. He concludes that carbs from fibrouse plants are benefitial and should not be counted in the total carbs for the purposes of caluclation of carbs proportion. Any comments on that?

Metabolism of soluble fiber leads to SCFA production, which is largely why soluble fiber may be recommended for 'beneficial' gut microflora.

[Werner]

I have a big 'ol mango tree in my yard. It was very productive in the 2011 season. I'm still dubious about labeling fruits as bad carbs. This new article at ergo-log put me at ease though and they make their position clear. Fruits are not the devils people want to make them out to be. In this article, they found that eating mangos reduced blood sugar concentration by increases levels of adiponectin. This is ideal for Diabetics and it's used in Africa as a traditional treatment for it. This makes me feel better about my 10+ mango a day binge when in season.

Mango: load up with carbs and reduce fat at the same time

I know this is personal, but I have some kind of condition when if I eat too much of sugar (in any form, fruit/white shugar/honey) I develope an acney-like inflammation in my ear. So my ear is sort of a sensor of my sugar consumption. I can attest that one mango immediately results in high intensity flare of this condition for me. I have very little if any response from eating one apple/pear/10 figs. So for me personally one mango is much worse than other fruits. I don't attribute this to the possible allergy to mangoes because this ear condition is responsive to sugars.

Why is an orange a healthy nutrient and a cake an unhealthy
one? Both contain carbohydrates. The difference is made by
other substances in the orange that make it perfectly digestable.
(If someone has diffuculty to digest oranges it is not the fruit but
a disturbed metabolism). Oranges have a lot of carbohydrates
or dried figs even more without any water.
I do not agree with your opinion that carbs as a whole are
pro-aging. Take bread for instance. It is very very pro-aging.
Fruits instead are anti-aging because they do not have any
substance that is promoting inflammation and more or less no
lectins or phytates. They have enzymes, fiber, flavonoids.
Potatoes are pro-aging due to their phytate and lectin content.

Werner, you are the only one here who talks about cakes and candy. I'm sure everybody else here agrees that candy is tasty toxin only (with the possible exception of 90% dark chocolate?). What members in this community try to understand is what should be a mix of the daily consumption of carbs from rice-like carbs, fruits, vegetables.

BTW, I'm reading a book of Paul Jaminet (spelling?) now, he maintains that carbs in vegetables, which is largerly fiber, are eventually metabolized to fats in intestines and are utilized by a body. He concludes that carbs from fibrouse plants are benefitial and should not be counted in the total carbs for the purposes of caluclation of carbs proportion. Any comments on that?

Depends on their lectin and phytate content that should
be as low as possible. Beans for instance are quite high
in both of them.
Well, I see the carbs situation quite different from people
here because I distinguish carbs with relation to their
surrounding substances. For me the most negative carb
is refined sugar, the best one fructose of fruits.

[DukeNukem]

Werner, why do you like fructose? Is there a single health benefit from fructose consumption?

[hivemind]

Werner, why do you like fructose? Is there a single health benefit from fructose consumption?

Fruits have a lot of antioxidants and other polyphenols. They also taste great.

[Brett Black]

ALL carbs are pro-aging, because glucose is pro-aging. So, I only consider plant foods worthy of eating only if the nutrient value exceeds the negative inflammation, insulin-release (insulin itself is pro-aging), and glycation damage--purely subjective, I know.

You favour reducing carbohydrate intake and increasing fat intake, but are your aware that there is evidence that:

Fatty meals result in post-prandial inflammation(1.)
Fatty meals cause a surge in triglycerides (that fasting triglyceride tests don't measure) which is associated with cardiovascular disease(2.)
Fatty foods generally contain the highest amounts of advanced glycation end-products(3.)
Ingesting fat contributes to endothelial dysfunction(4.)
Fatty meals induce oxidative stress(5.)
Dietary fat increases transport of bacterial endoxin from the gut into systemic circulation which causes metabolic endotoxemia(6.)



REFERENCES:

1. Alipour A, van Oostrom AJ, Izraeljan A, Verseyden C, Collins JM, Frayn KN,
Plokker TW, Elte JW, Castro Cabezas M. Leukocyte activation by triglyceride-rich
lipoproteins. Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2008 Apr;28(4):792-7. Epub 2008 Jan
24. PubMed PMID: 18218988.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18218988


2. Bansal S, Buring JE, Rifai N, Mora S, Sacks FM, Ridker PM. Fasting compared
with nonfasting triglycerides and risk of cardiovascular events in women. JAMA.
2007 Jul 18;298(3):309-16. PubMed PMID: 17635891.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17635891


3. Uribarri J, Woodruff S, Goodman S, Cai W, Chen X, Pyzik R, Yong A, Striker GE,
Vlassara H. Advanced glycation end products in foods and a practical guide to
their reduction in the diet. J Am Diet Assoc. 2010 Jun;110(6):911-16.e12. PubMed
PMID: 20497781.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20497781


4. Maggi FM, Raselli S, Grigore L, Redaelli L, Fantappiè S, Catapano AL.
Lipoprotein remnants and endothelial dysfunction in the postprandial phase. J
Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jun;89(6):2946-50. PubMed PMID: 15181082.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15181082


5. Fisher-Wellman KH, Bloomer RJ. Exacerbated postprandial oxidative stress
induced by the acute intake of a lipid meal compared to isoenergetically
administered carbohydrate, protein, and mixed meals in young, healthy men. J Am
Coll Nutr. 2010 Aug;29(4):373-81. PubMed PMID: 21041812.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21041812


6. Erridge C, Attina T, Spickett CM, Webb DJ. A high-fat meal induces low-grade
endotoxemia: evidence of a novel mechanism of postprandial inflammation. Am J
Clin Nutr. 2007 Nov;86(5):1286-92. PubMed PMID: 17991637.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17991637

[Werner]

Werner, why do you like fructose? Is there a single health benefit from fructose consumption?

I know what you mean. If you add fructose to fast food
for instance that is not good, of course. Fructose as an
isolated substance should be avoided as far as larger
quantities are involved. Take fructose chocolate for
diabetics. The advantage is a slower passage through
the intestine and therefore a slower blood sugar increase.
The disadvantage begins with larger quantities of such
a chocolate.
Fructose in fruits is a healthy thing because it is part of a
concert of different substances as flavonoids and enzymes.

[hggh]

Is there a single health benefit from fructose consumption?

re: fructose
It may give you extra energy to want to exercise via GLUT5/2
http://www.silverhyd...st-and-overall/
(like that person who posted durianrider who exercises all the time regularly and eats fructose fruits all the time)... I noticed extra spring in my step when I upped the potatoes (sweet and then sweet & also white) and just walked the dog with more 'spring in my step'. Good to fast on glycogen stored in liver and muscle too. Mat Lalonde has said on a Robbwolf podcast fructose decreases glycemic load of foods stimulating liver to soak up glucose http://robbwolf.com/...ion-episode-68/ .

For exercise, I later did compound movements every other day fasted taking BCAAs & then whey postworkout and gained muscle. Now I carb load big after a workout with 3-4 potatoes and feel much leaner and cleaner VS. low-carb w/o exercise. And eat 1 potato with protein meals. Adding carbs will make you tolerate glucose more and you'll just feel more able to exercise. I remember being on a 90% vegan raw diet (cooked beans were the only exception, not a low fat diet, but 325g~ carbs from fruits and blended vegetables mostly) and I had incredible energy (running everywhere and having no fatigue) and outpacing my dog and never running out breath. I remember those years (3 yrs ago) fondly in that regard.

And the energy and will to exercise may be good to maintain leanness http://sweatscience....ing-triathlete/ @age70-74 sedentary vs triathlete. Just look at the bone mineral density scan. And triathletes even bicycle which is bad for bones http://well.blogs.ny...for-your-bones/ & best exercises http://well.blogs.ny...-healthy-bones/

Edited by hggh, 17 January 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[Mind]

Just another reason to lessen your carb intake....they increase your risk of dementia when you are older.

Let me jump in here with some caveats to deflect some of the "carbs are awesome, the more the better, comments". This was an epidemiological study. Carbs in vegetables and fruits are not as bad as empty carbs. Too many empty carbs AND horrible vegetable oils and hydrogenated oils that are massively over-represented in the SAD diet are largely responsible for all the carb-ass.

[Chupo]

Ketogenic diets reversed amyloid plaque by 25% in 43 days in mice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1282589/

[icey]

Interesting thread. I've been cutting down carbs as well and my waistline has followed pretty dramatically, don't think it's ever been this slim, even when I was playing sports 6-7 days a week as a teenager. Next stop is a 6 pack but I still have alot more work to do. Not sure why I need all that oatmeal just to sit behind a computer all day. My protein intake has also gone way up since I am hitting the weights pretty hard.

Next I am moving my oats to pre-workout meal (replace waxy maize starch) and going to see how going to a breakfast with carbs based on fruit and veggies only works out. I'll be using the Nutri Bullet to cut up the fruits and veggies. Even tier-1 coaches are using this thing, I was going to invest in Vitamix or Blentec but if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Interesting Chuopman mentions Ketogenic diets, my goal is to maintain a keto state and get ripped. I have not had any issues with losing strength or muscle mass since I've lowered my carb intake.

I do however carb up on the weekends with oat cereal and popcorn, as I allow myself "cheat days", or whatever else I might come across while eating out or in (even pizza is okay).

My diet is vegetarian, although I will have eggs once a week, yogurt a couple of times per week and milk once or twice. So right now I will be getting carbs from pre and postworkout meals, and from whatever is in beans and Quinoa

Is there a single health benefit from fructose consumption?

re: fructose
It may give you extra energy to want to exercise via GLUT5/2
http://www.silverhyd...st-and-overall/
(like that person who posted durianrider who exercises all the time regularly and eats fructose fruits all the time)... I noticed extra spring in my step when I upped the potatoes (sweet and then sweet & also white) and just walked the dog with more 'spring in my step'. Good to fast on glycogen stored in liver and muscle too. Mat Lalonde has said on a Robbwolf podcast fructose decreases glycemic load of foods stimulating liver to soak up glucose http://robbwolf.com/...ion-episode-68/ .

For exercise, I later did compound movements every other day fasted taking BCAAs & then whey postworkout and gained muscle. Now I carb load big after a workout with 3-4 potatoes and feel much leaner and cleaner VS. low-carb w/o exercise. And eat 1 potato with protein meals. Adding carbs will make you tolerate glucose more and you'll just feel more able to exercise. I remember being on a 90% vegan raw diet (cooked beans were the only exception, not a low fat diet, but 325g~ carbs from fruits and blended vegetables mostly) and I had incredible energy (running everywhere and having no fatigue) and outpacing my dog and never running out breath. I remember those years (3 yrs ago) fondly in that regard.

And the energy and will to exercise may be good to maintain leanness http://sweatscience....ing-triathlete/ @age70-74 sedentary vs triathlete. Just look at the bone mineral density scan. And triathletes even bicycle which is bad for bones http://well.blogs.ny...for-your-bones/ & best exercises http://well.blogs.ny...-healthy-bones/

My preworkout meal consists of:

Banana, Apple, orange, scoop of waxy maize starch (to be replaced with oatmeal) and a scoop of protein powder

I definitley feel the fructose helping with energy and muscle fullness as well

[misterE]

The cultures that eat the most starch have the best longevity. Okinawa = rice, sweet-potatoes. Tarahumara Indians = Beans and corn. China = rice. Plus no one should forget that prostate-cancer, diabetes and atherosclerosis are shown to be reversed on a high-starch/low-fat diet (Ornish, Barnard and Esselstyn). Studies have shown that the largest dietary changes that have occurred in the USA in the last 100 years which caused the obesity epidemic was a decrease in grains, flours, beans and potatoes and an increase in meat, dairy, total fat and total-sugar [1].





[1] http://www.longecity...t-past-present/

[misterE]

High-fiber complex carbohydrates are much better than sugar or fat in terms of longevity. There are probably 30 or more studies conducted out of the Pritikin-Longevity-Center showing reversal of metabolic-syndrome within 2 months of following a low-fat/low-sugar/high-fiber/high-starch diet!

The reason why you don't become obese on a high-fat diet is because you are constantly undergoing lipolysis. Lipolysis is when fat is released out of the adipoise-tissue (body-fat) into circulation for oxidation. This may sound good from a fat-loss perspective, but if you look closer you will see that one of the consequences from having insulin-resistance is increased lipolysis and circulating free-fatty-acids (FFAs). Diabetics are in a constant state of lipolysis and have elevated FFAs and triglycerides, meaning their bodies are in fat burning mode. Diabetes is a catabolic state where your body is actually breaking down body-fat reserves for fuel (since it cannot use glucose as a fuel). Giving diabetics insulin or insulin-enhancing drugs like metformin reduce the flux of FFA's from adipocytes, which then lowers the chance of ectopic fat distribution and lipotoxicity.

Perhaps these high-fat diets work well for weight-loss by making you diabetic!

Edited by misterE, 22 October 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[DAMI]

Just another reason to lessen your carb intake....they increase your risk of dementia when you are older.

Let me jump in here with some caveats to deflect some of the "carbs are awesome, the more the better, comments". This was an epidemiological study. Carbs in vegetables and fruits are not as bad as empty carbs. Too many empty carbs AND horrible vegetable oils and hydrogenated oils that are massively over-represented in the SAD diet are largely responsible for all the carb-ass.

That's interesting but technically we don't know if carbs themselves are the reason for dementia.
With studies like this it's alway important to keep in mind that in western countries most carbs come from wheat and sugar, foods which are unhealthy irregardless of the fact that they are carbs. The Kitava are for example are afaik free from dementia on a relatively high carb diet. But they get their carbohydrate from starchy tubers and fruit rather than grains and added sweeteners.

Edited by DAI, 16 November 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[zorba990]

Werner, why do you like fructose? Is there a single health benefit from fructose consumption?

Fruits have a lot of antioxidants and other polyphenols. They also taste great.

So do berries, and the sugar content is lower.

[Mind]

Researchers find that cutting a small amount of fat from your diet can help you lose a small amount of weight (1.6 kg on average, over 6 months). Duh!

What would have been more interesting is if they also had a low-carb group to compare.

[TheKidInside]

yeah Mind. I think that study is a bit silly since there should be a low-carb and a low-protein group...most nutritional studies that do this do it in comparison.

[misterE]

Fatty foods are calorie-dense foods. Replacing fatty foods with starchy foods reduces the amount of calories you consume without reducing the amount of food, or volume of food you eat. Fatty foods (along with fructose) don't trigger satiety mechanisms in the brain that are usually triggered by glucose (as in starch). Plus the body stores fatty-acids effortlessly (as body-fat). Glucose (as in starch) has a very difficult time converting into body-fat. Animal-fat is also the main source of pesticides, dioxins, heavy-metals and other environmental-chemicals!


So beware of those rich high-fat diets! Remember what those fat aristocrates and royalty of the past looked like.

[misterE]

Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Jul;62(1):19-29.

Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage.

Horton TJ, Drougas H, Brachey A, Reed GW, Peters JC, Hill JO.

Abstract

Both the amount and composition of food eaten influence body-weight regulation. The purpose of this study was to determine whether and by what mechanism excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate. We overfed isoenergetic amounts (50% above energy requirements) of fat and carbohydrate (for 14 d each) to nine lean and seven obese men. A whole-room calorimeter was used to measure energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation on days 0, 1, 7, and 14 of each overfeeding period. From energy and nutrient balances (intake-expenditure) we estimated the amount and composition of energy stored. Carbohydrate overfeeding produced progressive increases in carbohydrate oxidation and total energy expenditure resulting in 75-85% of excess energy being stored. Alternatively, fat overfeeding had minimal effects on fat oxidation and total energy expenditure, leading to storage of 90-95% of excess energy. Excess dietary fat leads to greater fat accumulation than does excess dietary carbohydrate, and the difference was greatest early in the overfeeding period.

Edited by misterE, 11 January 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[misterE]

Nutr Metab (Lond). 2009 Sep 28;6:37. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-6-37.
Early responses of insulin signaling to high-carbohydrate and high-fat overfeeding.

Adochio RL, Leitner JW, Gray K, Draznin B, Cornier MA.
Abstract

BACKGROUND: Early molecular changes of nutritionally-induced insulin resistance are still enigmatic. It is also unclear if acute overnutrition alone can alter insulin signaling in humans or if the macronutrient composition of the diet can modulate such effects.

METHODS: To investigate the molecular correlates of metabolic adaptation to either high-carbohydrate (HC) or high-fat (HF) overfeeding, we conducted overfeeding studies in 21 healthy lean (BMI < 25) individuals (10 women, 11 men), age 20-45, with normal glucose metabolism and no family history of diabetes. Subjects were studied first following a 5-day eucaloric (EC) diet (30% fat, 50% CHO, 20% protein) and then in a counter balanced manner after 5 days of 40% overfeeding of both a HC (20% fat, 60% CHO) diet and a HF (50% fat, 30% CHO) diet. At the end of each diet phase, in vivo insulin sensitivity was assessed using the hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp technique. Ex vivo insulin action was measured from skeletal muscle tissue samples obtained 15 minutes after insulin infusion was initiated.

RESULTS: Overall there was no change in whole-body insulin sensitivity as measured by glucose disposal rate (GDR, EC: 12.1 ± 4.7; HC: 10.9 ± 2.7; HF: 10.8 ± 3.4). Assessment of skeletal muscle insulin signaling demonstrated increased tyrosine phosphorylation of IRS-1 (p < 0.001) and increased IRS-1-associated phosphatidylinositol 3 (PI 3)-kinase activity (p < 0.001) following HC overfeeding. In contrast, HF overfeeding increased skeletal muscle serine phosophorylation of IRS-1 (p < 0.001) and increased total expression of p85α (P < 0.001).

CONCLUSION: We conclude that acute bouts of overnutrition lead to changes at the cellular level before whole-body insulin sensitivity is altered. On a signaling level, HC overfeeding resulted in changes compatible with increased insulin sensitivity. In contrast, molecular changes in HF overfeeding were compatible with a reduced insulin sensitivity.

Edited by misterE, 11 January 2013 - 11:15 PM.