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We must find a way to combat the Pro-aging Trance!


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#31 brokenportal

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:52 PM

This particular line is sheer ignorance, and prejudiced ignorance at that.


I know, and I could be wrong, but I think that its one of the main ones that people use, or think, that arent coming on board with this cause. Thats the look I see on Colbert, and Sanjay Guptas face when they are talking to Aubrey, or that news guy talking to David Styles, or the reporter talking to me and Mind, my 40 year old stodgy cynical co worker counterparts when Im discussing this at job sites, or wherever.

I beleive we know how to ultimately get through to them though.

While it's unlikely that you will ever convince someone with this mindset of the truth of the situation, as they are going to be far too wrapped up in justifying their world view to actually listen, education is the sole tactic which has any hope. This is the cry of the person who has too little actively used intellect and has therefore been reliant on manual labor most of their life, and so cannot see mental labors as remotely comparable to "real work"

Considering that 90% of my neighbors in Florida fit this mindset, I can tell you it's pretty hard to penetrate the wall of hatred for anyone who uses their brain.


I think we have formulas for penetrating that.

What do you think about this one? I see this alot too:

"We need to wait until people get smarter and nicer, and learn to work together and stop being so bad, and we need to wait until technology brings this along. Be patient young grasshopper, we cant just rush in to this and have it."

Ultimately, I think all of this is a matter of doing something like informing the world through developing plans like this.

#32 Mind

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 07:33 PM

Some people (like myself) would not like to see the world as a giant New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles and value large amounts of personally owned land and totally unindustrialized space for animals or hiking, boating, hunting, camping, etc. While I understand that the convenience of unindustrialized land can't compete with the convenience of money generated from it's potential use and real-estate value, I entertain the idea of population control being mandatory long before space is even noteworthy of discussion. Ideally, we will achieve indefinite lifespans for all and have government managed population growth to match the death rate.


On that note: "Cemeteries and burial ceremonies are not acceptable methods of population control... Stop ageing now."


I am one of these people as well. I like being outdoors. I have dreams of owning a large farm or ranch in the future. Again, this is a generational issue. Younger generations are much more enthralled with the virtual world and have little desire to live in the "country". I seriously doubt we will see as much expansion into rural areas as we saw during the last couple decades. Also, resource depletion has been predicted so many times for so long now that it is hard to believe anymore (through admittedly flawed inductive reasoning). The one resource that everyone forgets about is human ingenuity applied toward adaptation. The info/nano/bio technologies that will help us solve aging should also help us solve resource shortages.

#33 b0gger

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:47 PM

I think quizez is a good way to combat Pro-aging Trance. So I was trying to make a quiz "Ageism" (link password: imminst), but decided to ask you to test it first. Please tell me abt my mistakes and give any good ideas.

Edited by b0gger, 14 January 2010 - 10:04 PM.


#34 brokenportal

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:09 AM

Hmm, this general concept might work great for just such a project as this, for a potential quiz. You could make one for the general public, for them to guage if they are in the trance or not. If the results come back that they are in "the trance," then that right there might be enough to spring some or many of them from it right there.

In addition to that, what I had in mind was, maybe we could also use this to create a quiz for teaching life extensionists how to combat the pro aging trance. We could do one of these where we ask questions like, "In situation A. would you answer 1, 2, or 3?" or something like that.

There is another topic about a quiz moving through the active topics right now too. If you see it you should add this link there too.

#35 The Immortalist

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:43 AM

Hmm, this general concept might work great for just such a project as this, for a potential quiz. You could make one for the general public, for them to guage if they are in the trance or not. If the results come back that they are in "the trance," then that right there might be enough to spring some or many of them from it right there.

In addition to that, what I had in mind was, maybe we could also use this to create a quiz for teaching life extensionists how to combat the pro aging trance. We could do one of these where we ask questions like, "In situation A. would you answer 1, 2, or 3?" or something like that.

There is another topic about a quiz moving through the active topics right now too. If you see it you should add this link there too.


The two types of quizes would be a great product made from this project brokenportal. Ill start working on it. Anyone else interested?

What do you think of my other product ideas about Publishing a guide to teach life extensionists how to combat the pro aging trance? This topic seems to be quite active could it have it's own subforum? (lol we keep asking for allot of subforums don't we :)

Edited by The Immortalist, 15 January 2010 - 03:44 AM.


#36 brokenportal

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:44 AM

The two types of quizes would be a great product made from this project brokenportal. Ill start working on it. Anyone else interested?

What do you think of my other product ideas about Publishing a guide to teach life extensionists how to combat the pro aging trance? This topic seems to be quite active could it have it's own subforum? (lol we keep asking for allot of subforums don't we :)



I started off with things like a guide in mind too. Its a good idea. If you want to take it on then we'll support you when we can, and you might chance upon finding some longer term helpers for it too. I stepped back in to something more simple like a quiz though because I figured getting a small thing for it off the ground would ensure that it least one peice of it got off the ground. Then also, if the quiz is successful, my thinking was that it would be easier then to gain attention for, and experience with it, to build something like a guide. However you could do a guide first, I mean, its up to you of course, Im just saying.

The sub forums kind of blossomed out to far back in the day. I wish they would be wrangled down a little. Then somebody started the trend of starting sub forums for projects. I still support that part.

#37 b0gger

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 11:49 AM

If to try to search Youtube with key word "transhumanism", you are getting this result (on a first plase is anti-transhumanist), on a second place the guy with a make up on his face. I failed to find imminst movie there withing those results because is has no tag "transhumanism".

"I cant wait for for the human holocast by transhumans with there famous words of "Resistance is Futile" or maybe Khan will survive eugenics wars to latter kill the rest of us. Really did The Martix and Star Trek teach these people nothing. To put it simply you people are insane. Im Sorry but its true. Good thing your just a small movement that nobody cares about. "

(a comment from here)

#38 brokenportal

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 08:38 PM

Told to stop dreaming, that death is inevitable, I have respoded "well, I do expect to die one day, but why rush it?" That seems to stop that criticism in its tracks.


Thats one of the things that I say that I find works in some situations. I very often find myself saying, "We'll still die someday, this is about living indefinitely, not forever."

However, when confronted with the line I put out there,

You guys are all dreaming hippies that need to get productive jobs and stop wasting the worlds time and resources with stupid goals like indefinite life extension.


..I think you maybe have to approach that like you would approach somebody of another political party. You have to realize that they are coming from a deep seeded fundamental slant that they are unlikely to back off of in a discussion like that. What I think works best is to ignore them, and rather just wait for the information to reach them on their own. For them to be inundated with it through the media, conferences, speeches, lectures, commercials, shows and things.

However, the temptation to rebut their ignorance can be overwhelming, and this may be a fault in my own method here, but I also usually like to hit them with a "If Columbus had you on his advisory committe he would probably still be at the dock." or a "good thing you werent partners with Edison we might be having this discussion at an Amish quilt fair right now." But over all, I think the best approach is to avoid the arguement. Let the information come to them. Those types are usually so proud about not changing their mind that you have to help them set up the conditions to absorb the information on their own.


If to try to search Youtube with key word "transhumanism", you are getting this result (on a first plase is anti-transhumanist), on a second place the guy with a make up on his face. I failed to find imminst movie there withing those results because is has no tag "transhumanism".

"I cant wait for for the human holocast by transhumans with there famous words of "Resistance is Futile" or maybe Khan will survive eugenics wars to latter kill the rest of us. Really did The Martix and Star Trek teach these people nothing. To put it simply you people are insane. Im Sorry but its true. Good thing your just a small movement that nobody cares about. "

(a comment from here)


This brings up a good point about remembering the general rule of thumb to tag everything about the cause with as many key words as you can as often as possible. For example I found that when I was moving pictures around for the Art Team that I would sometimes save them as something like, "flyer2" but Ive now been working to remember to label them as things like "indefinite life extension". A fundraiser picture I labeled as "Imminst Fundraiser" It may get hits in google that might help more people become aware of the fundraisers.

As for that quote you post there, I would say the same thing that I wrote above in response to MaxWatt.

#39 robomoon

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:43 PM

First, you give the problem of a lacking interest for anti-aging among the public the wording pro-aging trance. These people are also maintaining an intellectual blind spot and other failures, so they should be given intellectual reading lessons from Imminst too. Next, you know in the back of your head, the notion of anti-aging trance and the intellectual blind spot are an offensive accusation for the public, because you maintain the attitude that they are in a trance and less intellectually firm than they should be. Doesn't make a great difference for the public whether the accusations are true. They will be upset to being directly accused of their failures anyways. Even when Imminst members start accusing themselves of being "dreaming hippies", it doesn't make it better.

Next step, you are so smart, you don't want to place advertisements into the local newspapers getting it printed: Hey, what's wrong with most of you is, you are in a pro-aging trance! So to avoid a negative reaction, you are trying to create good looking public relations material including glossy brochures and quizzes. Yet, you have to invest time and money to create this, just to inform the public that they know not enough or the wrong thing and Imminst is there to inform them about the right thing.

Imminst will waste it's resources by starting a marketing campaign which is not solid in it's wording from within. Is it necessary to use the word aging instead of a smart euphemism which doesn't get printed in academic research papers, but still the right words of choice to spread in local newspapers and a glossy brochure? Take LifeStar Institute http://www.lifestarinstitute.org as an example, they are already spreading a wording like this: "health initiative", "therapies", "compressed time-frame", "restore physiological and cognitive function", "restoring in already mature people", etc.

Just echo words from other organizations who already work on PR against aging and the people will hear the message.

Edited by robomoon, 15 January 2010 - 10:47 PM.

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#40 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:14 AM

First, you give the problem of a lacking interest for anti-aging among the public the wording pro-aging trance. These people are also maintaining an intellectual blind spot and other failures, so they should be given intellectual reading lessons from Imminst too. Next, you know in the back of your head, the notion of anti-aging trance and the intellectual blind spot are an offensive accusation for the public, because you maintain the attitude that they are in a trance and less intellectually firm than they should be. Doesn't make a great difference for the public whether the accusations are true. They will be upset to being directly accused of their failures anyways. Even when Imminst members start accusing themselves of being "dreaming hippies", it doesn't make it better.

Next step, you are so smart, you don't want to place advertisements into the local newspapers getting it printed: Hey, what's wrong with most of you is, you are in a pro-aging trance! So to avoid a negative reaction, you are trying to create good looking public relations material including glossy brochures and quizzes. Yet, you have to invest time and money to create this, just to inform the public that they know not enough or the wrong thing and Imminst is there to inform them about the right thing.

Imminst will waste it's resources by starting a marketing campaign which is not solid in it's wording from within. Is it necessary to use the word aging instead of a smart euphemism which doesn't get printed in academic research papers, but still the right words of choice to spread in local newspapers and a glossy brochure? Take LifeStar Institute http://www.lifestarinstitute.org as an example, they are already spreading a wording like this: "health initiative", "therapies", "compressed time-frame", "restore physiological and cognitive function", "restoring in already mature people", etc.

Just echo words from other organizations who already work on PR against aging and the people will hear the message.


I think "Immortality Institute" itself isn't really out there to appeal to the masses, though many from within encourage it or promote it. The institute has close links with very elitist sorts of organizations. Take SL4 for example. If things haven't changed since 1999, they are still flaming people for asking questions that have already been logged in the IRC archives six years prior, referring them to the backlog and telling them to shut up. (To summarize a conversation I had with Eliezer) (no offence intended btw, you were probably having a bad day and I fully understand) but, on to the point.

Imminst is by my estimation intended to appeal to elitist types, who aren't too concerned about being insulting, aggressive or hardcore cyberpunks. Which makes it a great place to raise an army of virtual transhumanists who aren't squeamish about stepping on a bunch of 'backwards bio-luddites' or Christians, or whoever gets in the way of the singularity.

Regardless of the forums obvious flaws and resurgent elitism, I'm here because I see a great platform to put forward some ideas for advancing biological regenerative technologies where I am humbly able to do so.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 16 January 2010 - 06:19 AM.


#41 robomoon

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:26 PM

Well, Imminst serves the elite, me, RoboMoon, the Emperial Highness of Moonnation, 2nd (supposed the 1st was real) prospective University student with an IQ (retrieved at an age of 20) below 90, freshman-certified by a European University in exchange for a PhD degree from an American College, inventor of the Double Decker Blimp with internal hydrogen bags for infinite cruising, the triumvirate in redundancy of mind, self, and memory of an immortal creature after conservation of personal DNA and mindfiles, dean of Space College, and author of Vertical Growth v.0.57 for blimps against overpopulation.

So there will be a different PR. Yet, a commercial slogan for the radio: "Bump, sorry, the Singularity is near!" wouldn't be enough to recruit new members. Even when it's a loud bump, the elitists wouldn't care to excuse with a "sorry".

A business card for members with the slogan: "Honk, honk, Singularity approaching!" doesn't work, yet they are still marching in bumpy terrain with thousands of prospective paths for anti-aging.

The best slogan for a little advertizement banner I can suggest is: "Sing u lar!" That suggests that, in case of great stress within the battle against aging, singing is vitality-prolonging for anyone. Even if "u", the abbrev. for the word "you", is directed towards anyone, it's a no-brainer when lar stands for something like Little Artificial Robots or just humans with Lacking Artificial Routines.

I think "Immortality Institute" itself isn't really out there to appeal to the masses, though many from within encourage it or promote it. The institute has close links with very elitist sorts of organizations. Take SL4 for example. If things haven't changed since 1999, they are still flaming people for asking questions that have already been logged in the IRC archives six years prior, referring them to the backlog and telling them to shut up. (To summarize a conversation I had with Eliezer) (no offence intended btw, you were probably having a bad day and I fully understand) but, on to the point.

Imminst is by my estimation intended to appeal to elitist types, who aren't too concerned about being insulting, aggressive or hardcore cyberpunks. Which makes it a great place to raise an army of virtual transhumanists who aren't squeamish about stepping on a bunch of 'backwards bio-luddites' or Christians, or whoever gets in the way of the singularity.

Regardless of the forums obvious flaws and resurgent elitism, I'm here because I see a great platform to put forward some ideas for advancing biological regenerative technologies where I am humbly able to do so.



#42 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 02:18 PM

Actually, one of the big reasons most people don't seem to think about aging is look at what they have to go through now to get MAYBE a few more years. Stop drinking, stop smoking, stop eating what you like, stop playing games and go work out, stop, stop, stop.

Anti-aging right now is prohibition after prohibition after prohibition.

Stop doing everything you love, and you might live a few years longer... in misery because you can't do anything you love.

Where's the incentive?

#43 brokenportal

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 09:10 PM

Marketing the cause can adapt to market crowds. As we go, your right, we wont want to be putting things like, "Whats wrong with you, your in a pro aging trance!" In newspapers, at least not all of them. We will want to mostly continue to inform them about the cause. Just tell them about it, tweaking the message depending on the time, and place, and medium and other factors.

In some cases we wont want to be squemish about stepping on the bio luddites, and in some cases we will. We've got one good main message, support advocacy & research for unlimited lifespans, and we can continue to add to the theme from here. We have dynamics to fit every situation in the equation. We wont be pigeon holing ourselves in to just trying to bash one message in with one hammer across the world. For example we have a secondary name in the works for imminst, so we can use either or.

Plans like this one, if we can get all of its parts to pass, cover all these bases. If you support it then get on board and help us continue to pick up the pace.

#44 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:23 AM

Marketing the cause can adapt to market crowds. As we go, your right, we wont want to be putting things like, "Whats wrong with you, your in a pro aging trance!" In newspapers, at least not all of them. We will want to mostly continue to inform them about the cause. Just tell them about it, tweaking the message depending on the time, and place, and medium and other factors.

In some cases we wont want to be squemish about stepping on the bio luddites, and in some cases we will. We've got one good main message, support advocacy & research for unlimited lifespans, and we can continue to add to the theme from here. We have dynamics to fit every situation in the equation. We wont be pigeon holing ourselves in to just trying to bash one message in with one hammer across the world. For example we have a secondary name in the works for imminst, so we can use either or.

Plans like this one, if we can get all of its parts to pass, cover all these bases. If you support it then get on board and help us continue to pick up the pace.


In what circumstances would you advocate stepping on bio-luddites?

#45 Inkstersco

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 10:44 AM

Imminst will waste it's resources by starting a marketing campaign which is not solid in it's wording from within.


Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Look at MF for example, while it was responsible for the SENS agenda.

Aubrey actually had no shortage of publicity(Colbert, Richard and Judy, etc). But it had been to surprisingly little effect (less than, say, an astronomer explaining how near an approaching meteor is). That's because talk of living xxxx years is cheap, even if it's backed up with some good, general reasoning.

The media items need to leave the audience truly changed in some way. 'Shit, I never thought of it like that before'. The way to do this is not to persuade the audience that there's something wrong with them ('you're in a trance'), but to impress upon them, in a single move, the non-trance perspective.

The audience puts their guard up if you begin with an extreme conclusion(we'll defeat aging) and then explain the reasoning. And the audience may feel you're jumping the gun if you start with only with bite-sized reasoning and then move to the extreme conclusion. The third way is simply to impress upon the audience the non-trance perspective, and allow the audience to come to the same moral and practical agenda as us.

From my point of view (I am a non-scientist who was eventually persuaded that SENS had merit) this impression consisted of two main realisations. The moral realisation: That an old man is just an injured young man and that social aging is mainly a lot of needless humbug. And the practical realisation: That the category of injury we're talking about is the kind of thing that we can reasonably endeavour to fix.

It wasn't the moral or practical argument that broke my trance. It was the impression I kept getting from the gradual understanding of the context, that broke my trance. That is, factors such as the way things are sometimes worded.

We here take these realisations for granted, and as such, it may not seem enough merely to bring them about. But I thing people who have been accustomed to the life-extensionist point of view may forget just how alien it is to most people, and how slippery and incorrigible the average person is when it comes to this topic.

--Iain

Edited by Inkstersco, 19 January 2010 - 10:47 AM.


#46 brokenportal

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 02:39 PM

In what circumstances would you advocate stepping on bio-luddites?


Well, thats not how I would word it. I was just paraphrasing some points you were touching on. Im saying its not a bad or a good thing, its a situational thing. I would call it something more like, not tip toeing around the bio luddites all the time. Heres an example of where I might advocate it: http://www.longevity...w...d=20&page=1 However, the main bulk of what we need to do is inform, with some things like this in strategic places as needed.

Edited by brokenportal, 19 January 2010 - 02:39 PM.


#47 brokenportal

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 03:20 PM

[quote name='Inkstersco' post='377114' date='Jan 19 2010, 06:44 AM']Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Look at MF for example, while it was responsible for the SENS agenda.

Aubrey actually had no shortage of publicity(Colbert, Richard and Judy, etc). But it had been to surprisingly little effect (less than, say, an astronomer explaining how near an approaching meteor is). That's because talk of living xxxx years is cheap, even if it's backed up with some good, general reasoning.[/quote]

You may be right, but from what I can see it is the exact opposite. Those appearances have had a tremendous effect. I see people every where that have gotten in to this because they saw Aubrey in Tech Review, or on TED, or Colbert, or Barbara Walters, or whatever. In fact it seems to me it may be the single biggest driving factor in the increase of over all interest in this cause over the years, but of course, I could be wrong. I see it reflected in these imminst registration numbers all the time:

2003: 380
2004: 478
2005: 712
2006: 898
2007: 1135
2008: 2805
2009: 3880

I know thats not millions, but thats just imminst, and its growing, and the cause is still increasing through the first stages of its media outreaches.

Anyways, your right, we need to inform them more, and we need to keep the themes straight and workable.

Some of the things developing to that end include this possible 5 year plan that is still tentative and in its basic stages here. Theres also a few things working to bring us a wider variety of platters to offer the different audiences, such as the Longevity Communities Network that is continuing to develop at Longecity.com. Its mission statement and about section is likely going to be a pivotal peice, at least many of us think that. Then there is also a secondary name for imminst in the works as discussed places like here.
We would retain the name Immortality Institute/Imminst, and we would have another name, this can allow us to continue to appeal to the hard cores, corner the market on the important meme keyword immortality, and use a softer name for appealing to varieties of other crowds. There are a lot of details that will need to go in to the set up. We also have a variety of other crowd targeters in development or planning for consideration. A ton of this is plotted out in basics so far in that 5 year plan. We continue to build that, we're looking to expand the core teams of people working on it, and some parts of it are already being executed. Besides all the projects and sections themselves, one big over all theme is continue to expand. Once we hit 100,000 its going to be harder to resist this cause, then once we hit 1,000,000 it will be even harder, and 500,000,000 even harder, and so on.


[quote]The media items need to leave the audience truly changed in some way. 'Shit, I never thought of it like that before'. The way to do this is not to persuade the audience that there's something wrong with them ('you're in a trance'), but to impress upon them, in a single move, the non-trance perspective.

The audience puts their guard up if you begin with an extreme conclusion(we'll defeat aging) and then explain the reasoning. And the audience may feel you're jumping the gun if you start with only with bite-sized reasoning and then move to the extreme conclusion. The third way is simply to impress upon the audience the non-trance perspective, and allow the audience to come to the same moral and practical agenda as us.

From my point of view (I am a non-scientist who was eventually persuaded that SENS had merit) this impression consisted of two main realisations. The moral realisation: That an old man is just an injured young man and that social aging is mainly a lot of needless humbug. And the practical realisation: That the category of injury we're talking about is the kind of thing that we can reasonably endeavour to fix.[/quote]

[quote]It wasn't the moral or practical argument that broke my trance. It was the impression I kept getting from the gradual understanding of the context,[/quote]
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Thats a main part of what we are working with in a possible 5 year plan, that is still tentative and in its basic stages here.

[quote]that broke my trance. That is, factors such as the way things are sometimes worded.[/quote]

[quote]We here take these realisations for granted,[/quote]

Ha, now your doing it to us, telling us that we are in the "tell them they are in a pro aging trance to inform them trance." but Im glad to see you doing that here because I sometimes do that too, I work on it, this makes me feel less bad.

I know what your talking about, thats exactly what Im trying to push too. I guess maybe you didnt notice it yet because maybe Im doing a good job of 'informing' people that its the way to go, and not telling them that theyre doing it wrong. (maybe not)

[quote]and as such, it may not seem enough merely to bring them about. But I thing people who have been accustomed to the life-extensionist point of view may forget just how alien it is to most people, and how slippery and incorrigible the average person is when it comes to this topic.[/quote]

Exactly, all we have to do is continue to inform them. We cant and shouldnt expect to tell them about it and have them just, jump on board right away. We want to inform them, little by little over time, let it sink in for them, let them reach the conclusions on their own, which in many cases is the only way that a person will accept a conclusion. People dont want to be told what to do, they want to decide what to do. They say that a person usually has to hear about a new concept from around 3 or 4 different sources that they view as at least fairly credible before they begin to beleive it, and I find in my experience that that seems to hold about true. You probably find similar.

#48 Inkstersco

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 04:08 PM

You may be right, but from what I can see it is the exact opposite. Those appearances have had a tremendous effect. I see people every where that have gotten in to this because they saw Aubrey in Tech Review, or on TED, or Colbert, or Barbara Walters, or whatever. In fact it seems to me it may be the single biggest driving factor in the increase of over all interest in this cause over the years, but of course, I could be wrong. I see it reflected in these imminst registration numbers all the time.



But what I mean is, the amount of public impact SENS has had, is small compared the the massive amount of publicity it has had. Yes, SENS-related publicity has pointed the public toward organisations such as these, but I don't think it that the content of the publicity itself is persuasive on a grand scale. Aubrey is an excellent speaker and interviewee, but the lecture-length message of SENS has not been adapted for the mainstream media as well as it could be, so I don't think it has sufficient impact.

The importance of Aubrey's message should be world-shattering to anyone who believes it, and yet only a fraction of people who hear it are persuaded. Well of course that's to be expected, right? You can't spend five minutes advocating SENS on TV and expect the public to be converted?

I deny this. I think we can expect the message to be quickly understood if it comes in the right form. Perhaps not fully accepted, but accepted as much as, say, 'In fifty years man will have landed on Mars'. Not a statement of which we can be certain, but its easy on the brain.

Some kind of language meme would be a good flank attack on the trance. Imagine if the old were referred to as something else, like the 'something-wounded' ? You know how there's a phrase going around 'age is just a number'? That phrase gives us a little momentary flash of insight when we hear it, weakening the trance a little, but only a little. What if a similar phrase were to become equally common, propagated in the same egalitarian spirit? A phrase which contains an idea which encapusates our point of view. For example, an antidote to the phrase 'death is just another part of life'? Something is just another something? You know when people say 'I'm 18 with 40 years experience!'? What if this were replaced with 'I'm not old, I'm a ...something..... young man'?

--Iain

Edited by Inkstersco, 19 January 2010 - 04:28 PM.


#49 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:43 AM

*deleted* (it's already been said a hundred times before)

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 20 January 2010 - 04:58 AM.


#50 Inkstersco

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:44 AM

I am one of these people as well. I like being outdoors. I have dreams of owning a large farm or ranch in the future. Again, this is a generational issue. Younger generations are much more enthralled with the virtual world and have little desire to live in the "country". I seriously doubt we will see as much expansion into rural areas as we saw during the last couple decades. Also, resource depletion has been predicted so many times for so long now that it is hard to believe anymore (through admittedly flawed inductive reasoning). The one resource that everyone forgets about is human ingenuity applied toward adaptation. The info/nano/bio technologies that will help us solve aging should also help us solve resource shortages.




I don't know -- the 'country getaway' lifeplan is quite popular among the British middle classes, even the young ones of thirtyish. Here in Scotland, even the cities are in the country  ;)


But I guess what matters is not movement out of cities, but expansion of cities. Of course, ideally, I wouldn't even prefer that. Most city development in the second half of the 20th century has been ugly, and I'm naturally conservative about such things.

--Iain

 

#51 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:47 PM

I am one of these people as well. I like being outdoors. I have dreams of owning a large farm or ranch in the future. Again, this is a generational issue. Younger generations are much more enthralled with the virtual world and have little desire to live in the "country". I seriously doubt we will see as much expansion into rural areas as we saw during the last couple decades. Also, resource depletion has been predicted so many times for so long now that it is hard to believe anymore (through admittedly flawed inductive reasoning). The one resource that everyone forgets about is human ingenuity applied toward adaptation. The info/nano/bio technologies that will help us solve aging should also help us solve resource shortages.




I don't know -- the 'country getaway' lifeplan is quite popular among the British middle classes, even the young ones of thirtyish. Here in Scotland, even the cities are in the country  ;)


But I guess what matters is not movement out of cities, but expansion of cities. Of course, ideally, I wouldn't even prefer that. Most city development in the second half of the 20th century has been ugly, and I'm naturally conservative about such things.

--Iain

 


Growing up outside of megacities, I find it extremely odd that people 'dream' of getting out of them. Figuratively speaking, it sounds like dreaming for a Thanksgiving turkey or ham. Didn't everyone already get one? I hope that the countryside isn't becoming something for the retired and ultra-rich in the cities.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 20 January 2010 - 04:48 PM.


#52 brokenportal

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:13 PM

Inkstersco, Im glad to find more people on the same page. I hope to see you around helping with the informing parts of plans in general, and If you want please do help us keep the core construction crew for it going. Get in on the discussions when you want. Add me in skype and I can help you get in to more meetings from there. My id there is brokenportal.

In particular though, I was thinking, I know what you mean about phrases and stuff, we have a lot of about sections and phrases in general, but we could use more, and we could use more official ones in different capacities. That reminds me of this topic here: http://www.imminst.o...ere-t31459.html

Im wondering, can we convince you to head up that topic/project? Its just one small thing, but thats another big part of how we are getting to the next levels, by getting more people to focus in on more small things. It wont burn you out, you can do it on the side, you can put more focus in to it, and help out with anything else you may want on the side. We could add you to the art team if you want to stay on top of this, and then that can get you in to monthly volunteer prize drawings, as well as, most importantly, if you did that it would inspire more people to volunteer as the visibility of this growing critical mass of volunteers grows.

#53 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:54 AM

Inkstersco, Im glad to find more people on the same page. I hope to see you around helping with the informing parts of plans in general, and If you want please do help us keep the core construction crew for it going. Get in on the discussions when you want. Add me in skype and I can help you get in to more meetings from there. My id there is brokenportal.

In particular though, I was thinking, I know what you mean about phrases and stuff, we have a lot of about sections and phrases in general, but we could use more, and we could use more official ones in different capacities. That reminds me of this topic here: http://www.imminst.o...ere-t31459.html

Im wondering, can we convince you to head up that topic/project? Its just one small thing, but thats another big part of how we are getting to the next levels, by getting more people to focus in on more small things. It wont burn you out, you can do it on the side, you can put more focus in to it, and help out with anything else you may want on the side. We could add you to the art team if you want to stay on top of this, and then that can get you in to monthly volunteer prize drawings, as well as, most importantly, if you did that it would inspire more people to volunteer as the visibility of this growing critical mass of volunteers grows.


With a more visible interest in marketing extended lifespans to people, I would like to suggest that one of the prime goals of presenting such an important goal to people should be to remove where possible profit incentives for doing so. (though I might suspect or be ready to believe that removing restrictions to the passion for life extension could be done with indirect reward types) The people who will get the message across to others about life extension best are going to be those who present it from a genuine perspective of care for others. Immortalists would do well to keep incentive-based recursions in other profit fields involving matters which are not life critical to others, while using their passions for life extension as the primary means to fuel it's growth.

As an example of how this works, consider an employer who asks an employee to perform a task for the company. The employee performs the task in exchange for pay at the end of the week and follows the routines daily, weekly, monthly, etc. When an employee is asked to perform an extra task that is not set forth in his job description, he/she isn't necessarily going to lose money for not performing the extra task (and may decline to do the task by defaulting to priority tasks assigned to routines) but, out of gratitude or in good rapport does so regardless.

Matters involving such critical choices about people's lives are, in my opinion tasks which are performed not for pay but, out of gratitude or good rapport with mankind. It is an extra task that, if performed does indeed make the company more profitable as a whole but, is not done for that automatic or routine reward.

Extending life to me, is about removing a fatal flaw given to people by poor evolutionary design. I'm not here writing on this forum because I'm going to get rewarded for it. I greatly suspect that only a few people in the world will actually get the cure for aging and will keep it to themselves. Regardless of whether or not I end up being cured of my inborn expiration date, I don't believe it's right for anyone to have this lifespan restriction and wouldn't hinder it's progressive removal even if it was denied to me, as unfair as it might be.

Extending lifespans should be a right, not a gain.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 22 January 2010 - 01:17 AM.


#54 brokenportal

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:16 AM

With a more visible interest in marketing extended lifespans to people, I would like to suggest that one of the prime goals of presenting such an important goal to people should be to remove where possible profit incentives for doing so. The people who will get the message across to others about life extension best are going to be those who present it from a genuine perspective of care for others. Immortalists would do well to keep incentive-based recursions in other profit fields involving matters which are not life critical to others, while using their passions for life extension as the primary means to fuel it's growth.

As an example of how this works, consider an employer who asks an employee to perform a task for the company. The employee performs the task in exchange for pay at the end of the week and follows the routines daily, weekly, monthly, etc. When an employee is asked to perform an extra task that is not set forth in his job description, he/she isn't necessarily going to lose money for not performing the extra task (and may decline to do the task by defaulting to priority tasks assigned to routines) but, out of gratitude or in good rapport does so regardless.

Matters involving such critical choices about people's lives are, in my opinion tasks which are performed not for pay but, out of gratitude or good rapport with mankind. It is an extra task that, if performed does indeed make the company more profitable as a whole but, is not done for that automatic or routine reward.

Extending life to me, is about removing a fatal flaw given to people by poor evolutionary design. I'm not here writing on this forum because I'm going to get rewarded for it. I greatly suspect that only a few people in the world will actually get the cure for aging and will keep it to themselves. Regardless of whether or not I end up being cured of my inborn expiration date, I don't believe it's right for anyone to have this lifespan restriction and wouldn't hinder it's progressive removal even if it was denied to me, as unfair as it might be.

Extending lifespans should be a right, not a gain.


Im glad to read this. Please do tell me where you would like to volunteer for the cause for free right away. We can get you started yesterday.

#55 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:02 AM

With a more visible interest in marketing extended lifespans to people, I would like to suggest that one of the prime goals of presenting such an important goal to people should be to remove where possible profit incentives for doing so. The people who will get the message across to others about life extension best are going to be those who present it from a genuine perspective of care for others. Immortalists would do well to keep incentive-based recursions in other profit fields involving matters which are not life critical to others, while using their passions for life extension as the primary means to fuel it's growth.

As an example of how this works, consider an employer who asks an employee to perform a task for the company. The employee performs the task in exchange for pay at the end of the week and follows the routines daily, weekly, monthly, etc. When an employee is asked to perform an extra task that is not set forth in his job description, he/she isn't necessarily going to lose money for not performing the extra task (and may decline to do the task by defaulting to priority tasks assigned to routines) but, out of gratitude or in good rapport does so regardless.

Matters involving such critical choices about people's lives are, in my opinion tasks which are performed not for pay but, out of gratitude or good rapport with mankind. It is an extra task that, if performed does indeed make the company more profitable as a whole but, is not done for that automatic or routine reward.

Extending life to me, is about removing a fatal flaw given to people by poor evolutionary design. I'm not here writing on this forum because I'm going to get rewarded for it. I greatly suspect that only a few people in the world will actually get the cure for aging and will keep it to themselves. Regardless of whether or not I end up being cured of my inborn expiration date, I don't believe it's right for anyone to have this lifespan restriction and wouldn't hinder it's progressive removal even if it was denied to me, as unfair as it might be.

Extending lifespans should be a right, not a gain.


Im glad to read this. Please do tell me where you would like to volunteer for the cause for free right away. We can get you started yesterday.


What do you have?

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 22 January 2010 - 02:11 AM.


#56 brokenportal

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:40 AM

What do you have?


The best place to start it seems to me is to answer this question: http://www.imminst.o...ing-t26601.html

I thought there was another copy of that question in another part of the forum. I know your not a new member, but I guess I moved that topic there rather than copy it. It will do just as well though if you want to answer it there.

#57 b0gger

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:34 AM

Here we can tell Bill Gates (crew) about issues with aging and stuff like that.

#58 kmoody

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:25 PM

My apologies for not seeing to this topic. I've been somewhat busy with coursework, the AI, and my research.

In response to The Immortalist's comments...

There is a time in every humans life when they are a child that they first begin to understand the concept of death, when they realise they may die they usually get upset (at least I did) and consult their parents, the parents being programed by society usually to believe there is an "afterlife" tell the child that death is not a problem their is an afterlife. The child being very impressionable psychologically by there parents and because of there young age is "indoctrinated to believe death is okay they don't have to worry and that there is a heaven to go to. Also because most humans are programmed to mindlessly follow social norms they just believe what everyone around them tells them.


You should do some reading on terror management theory as your description is succinctly explained by it. Your "hypothesis" is actually in line with part II of mine, albeit not quite as detailed. TMT suggests that people employ various psychological mechanisms (among which self-esteem and group affiliation are primary) to cope with the inevitability of their own death. Cross cultural studies have demonstrated this all across the globe. However, the pro aging trance is a curious bugger to understand. According to TMT, one would assume that if you presented someone with information about promoting their longevity, they would be supportive of this idea, as it would lead to decreased levels of the deep rooted terror accompanying knowledge of personal mortality. Curious, the pro aging trance indicates that this is not the case. What does this mean? This is the topic of my paper, which is currently in its second draft form and will be completed shortly (just waiting on a few papers from the library).

If anyone is interested in the draft, please email me and I would be happy to provide it. This is a very important topic, but I would caution you to avoid subjective research. There is a lot of information about this topic available. If you are interested, perhaps you should enroll in the AI and do it as a structured project. I would be more than happy to mentor such an undertaking, having run my own research team last semester to look into this.

#59 AgeVivo

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:10 PM

Some of the things developing to that end include this possible 5 year plan that is still tentative and in its basic stages here. Theres also a few things working to bring us a wider variety of platters to offer the different audiences, such as the Longevity Communities Network that is continuing to develop at Longecity.com


Tadaa!! Longecity is up!!!

See http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=38203

#60 s123

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 04:59 PM

You should do some reading on terror management theory as your description is succinctly explained by it. Your "hypothesis" is actually in line with part II of mine, albeit not quite as detailed. TMT suggests that people employ various psychological mechanisms (among which self-esteem and group affiliation are primary) to cope with the inevitability of their own death. Cross cultural studies have demonstrated this all across the globe. However, the pro aging trance is a curious bugger to understand. According to TMT, one would assume that if you presented someone with information about promoting their longevity, they would be supportive of this idea, as it would lead to decreased levels of the deep rooted terror accompanying knowledge of personal mortality. Curious, the pro aging trance indicates that this is not the case. What does this mean? This is the topic of my paper, which is currently in its second draft form and will be completed shortly (just waiting on a few papers from the library).


"A history of ideas about the prolongation of life." by Gerald Joseph Gruman published in 1966 discusses the possible ways in which humans try to cope with the prospect of death.

The problem of death is a central part of the dilemma of modern man. This concern stems largely from the fact that the modern era has been characterized by a marked decline of faith in supernatural salvation from death, i.e., immortality and resurrection by divine fiat. ... One response, and a widespread one, is to attempt to ignore the issue by placing a taboo on it. Another outlook is that of neo-orthodoxy, which focuses attention on death in order to justify a theological standpoint which is essentially medieval. A third approach is that of the secular existentialists, who emphasize death and the "absurdity" of the individual, so as to sharpen man's sense of moral responsibility.
To bring the modern dilemma towards a positive resolution, the best hope would seem to be a reaffirmation of meliorism, which, in regard to the problem of death, would entail a progressive lengthening of the span of life.






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