91 replies to this topic

[DaveM]

Milk thistle gave me heart palpitations!

Edited by DaveM, 31 October 2011 - 11:16 PM.

[Lufega]

Milk thistle also increases prolactin ! That sucks.

[hippocampus]

if milk thistle increases prolactin, how is this connected to dopamine? does it lower dopamine (and has antipsychotic properties) or has some other effect on dopamine if any?

[pycnogenol]

Milk thistle gave me heart palpitations!

How much were you taking?

[JChief]

may help curb lung cancer too!

journal report:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...
"... naturally-derived products like silibinin may be as effective as today's best treatments."

Other sources of information:
http://www.coloradocancerblogs.org/...

http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/her...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/si...

http://www.liversupport.com/milkthi...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silibinin

Edited by JChief, 01 December 2011 - 07:04 AM.

[syr_]

Is there any benefit to taking milk thistle only when you are ingesting something that can be harmful to your liver - i.e. alcohol, modafinil, etc. ?

Definitely yes, I take it when i eat stuff like fried food (cough) or liver unfriendly meds, and it works great. Should go for 0,5g ED but I'm out of regimen atm for financial reasons.
In one of the studies it was used to treat liver cirrhosis, It's serious stuff, that's very underrated.

[albedo]

I recently rediscover Milk Thistle for prostate health. We all know it for liver health but I think interesting the effects of isosilybins on apoptosis of prostate cancel human cells and their antiproliferative effects.

For those concerned as I am with BPH, rising PSA and focusing maintaining a good prostate health this might be worth considering.

E.g. see:

"Isosilybin A induces apoptosis in human prostate cancer cells via targeting Akt, NF-κB, and androgen receptor signaling"
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20721970

"Targeting silibinin in the antiproliferative pathway"
http://www.ncbi.nlm....0%20%2020047507

Edited by albedo, 18 December 2011 - 01:40 PM.

[Ark]

Might I add it boost the effects of certian Noots including SSRI's through the metablism in the liver.


Depression and mood disorders
Comparison of Silybum marianum (L.) Gaertn. with fluoxetine in the treatment of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2009.
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is a common neuropsychiatric condition. Although a variety of pharmaceutical agents is available for the treatment of OCD, psychiatrists often find that many patients cannot tolerate the side effects of these medications; do not respond properly to the treatment; or the medications lose their effectiveness after a period of treatment. Herbal medicine can be a solution to some of these problems. In fact many herbs with psychotropic effects exist which can have fewer side effects. They can provide an alternative treatment or be used to enhance the effectiveness of conventional anti-obsessive and compulsive symptoms. Silybum marianum (L.) Gaertn. is a well-known medicinal plant with a long history of usage in Iran. This plant is reported to be safe on humans. Our objective in this study was to compare the efficacy of the extract of milk thistle with fluoxetine in the treatment of OCD. The study was an 8-week pilot double-blind randomized trial. Thirty five adult outpatients who met the DSM-IV-TR criteria for OCD based on the structured clinical interview participated in the trial. The minimum score of Yale-Brown Scale for OCD was 21 for all patients. In this double-blind and randomized trial, patients were randomly assigned to receive either capsule of the extract (600mg/day) or fluoxetine (30mg/day) for 8weeks. The results showed no significant difference between the extract and fluoxetine in the treatment of OCD. There was also no significant difference between the two groups in terms of observed side effects.

[nupi]

There was also no significant difference between the two groups in terms of observed side effects.

That kind of worries me considering the laundry list of nastyness that SSRIs come with...

[hippocampus]

can milk thistle cause hair loss?
what effect does milk thistle have on DHT?

Edited by hippocampus, 19 December 2011 - 05:24 PM.

[JChief]

Even though I don't have my hopes up it's worth reiterating that increased prolactin levels in humans hasn't been fully established (apparently). Further, given the extraordinary benefits this supplement offers it seems reasonable to expect a short term run of it may reverse some damage. To take it while consuming alcohol seems another great idea. I mean if this stuff can do anything for cirrhosis I'd imagine even of a little bit of it should do some good. I'm glad I read about this prolactin issue again because I almost forgot. I ordered a high potency extract of it (Siliphos) and possible increased prolactin levels wouldn't be good for fertility reasons. So my wife sure won't be taking it any time soon..

Edited by JChief, 15 April 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[JChief]

Vitex agnus castus inhibits activation of dopamine 2 receptor by competitive binding, causing a slight increase in release of prolactin. In higher concentrations, as in modern extracts, the binding activity is sufficient to reduce the release of prolactin. A study has found that treatment of 20 healthy men with higher doses of Vitex agnus-castus was associated with a slight reduction of prolactin levels, whereas lower doses caused a slight increase as compared to doses of placebo.* A decrease of prolactin will influence levels of Follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and estrogen in women; and testosterone in men.

*http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9021345

Perhaps this herb could be taken just to be safe. I might cycle the Siliphos. This also appears to be a fertility aid for women trying to conceive, which is good for my situation.

Also, what I'd like to know more about is how milk thistle extract and vitex agnus castus compare in their activiation of the D2 receptor and if higher doses of silymarin might have a similar effect (reducing prolatin at higher doses) to vitex agnus castus/"chaste berry".

Edited by JChief, 15 April 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[panhedonic]

\\\bumpity/// any updates on prolactin and milk-thistle?

[Louis]

I'm sure all you milk thistle fans will find this as fascinating as I did:
Sierra Sciences has identified Silymarin as a potent inducer of telomerase.
(HeLa scores of ~2.4% at the time of the patent filing.)

I've posted a link to the recently released world patent application on product B, in the product B thread:
http://www.longecity...251#entry531251

Summarizing the patent in 2 sentences: Silymarin / milk thistle is the most potent natural inducer of telomerase described in the patent, and makes up ~50% of product B by weight. Different preparations/extractions of silymarin vary widely w/ respect to their ability to activate telomerase.

This is indeed a very remarkable compound.

Edited by Louis, 29 August 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[riloal]

HI, it,s ok to take milk thistle with other supplements or instead it,s better to take milk thistle alone cause it can affect others supplements absorption? Thanks

[hav]

Niner posted a rather good analysis of possible milk thistle interaction pathways with other drugs and supplements in another related thread. He also pointed out low bioavailability of milk thistle itself when taken orally.

Did a little more digging myself in pubmed and found a study that seems to tie silymarin's low bioavailability when taken orally to its low solubility in water. And also how binding it with phosphatidylcholine can increase solubility in water, and thus bioavailabity, from around 40 μg/mL to 10 mg/mL.:

Mixed micelles loaded with silybin-polyene phosphatidylcholine complex improve drug solubility

Abstract

Aim:
To prepare a novel formulation of phosphatidylcholine (PC)-bile salts (BS)-mixed micelles (MMs) loaded with silybin (SLB)-PC complex for parenteral applications.

Methods:
SLB-PC-BS-MMs were prepared using the co-precipitation method. Differential scanning calorimetry (DSC) analysis was used to confirm the formation of the complex and several parameters were optimized to obtain a high quality formulation. The water-solubility, drug loading, particle size, zeta potential, morphology and in vivo properties of the SLB-PC-BS-MMs were determined.

Results:
The solubility of SLB in water was increased from 40.83±1.18 μg/mL to 10.14±0.36 mg/mL with a high drug loading (DL) of 14.43%±0.44% under optimized conditions. The SLB-PC-BS-MMs were observed by transmission electron microscopy (TEM) and scanning electron microscopy (SEM) and showed spherical shapes. The particle size and zeta potential, as measured by photon correlation spectroscopy (PCS), were about 30±4.8 nm and −39±5.0 mV, respectively. In vivo studies showed that incorporation of the SLB-PC complex into PC-BS-MMs led to a prolonged circulation time of the drug.

Conclusion:
This novel formulation appears to be a good candidate for drug substances that exhibit poor solubility for parenteral administration.
PMID: 21170082

Also see: Silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex. Monograph by Thorne Research (PMID: 20030465). All of which suggests to me that niner is spot on (as usual) and that Milk Thistle taken orally as a native extract may have very few interations (or positive effects) unless taken in very large quantities.

But a little more digging indicates that there are a few Milk Thistle formulations out there in the higher bioavailable silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex form. There's a Thorne Research product called Siliphos®. There's also a Vitacost Milk Thistle and Natural Wellness UltraThistle that feature Siliphos as well as Swanson Siliphos. Also stumbled across Enzymatic Therapy Super Milk Thistle which doesn't mention Siliphos by name but looks very similar in concept. Noticeably absent, btw, is any Sierra Sciences product.

Regarding Silymarin having a Prolactin boosting effect, PMID 19303749 documents that in female rats. [This study, btw, used a micronized form of silymarin they refer to as Bio-C]. That effect can indeed be nulled with Prolactin inhibiters as mentioned above. This site mentions a number of them complete with Pubmed citations. I might add the drug bromoergocryptine to the list as apparently one of the more powerful Prolactin inhibitors based on this abstract in Pubmed 570784. Which I infer from all the references to Pubmed 572921 (which I've never been able to locate and read myself), seems to put Mucuna pruriens on par with bromoergocryptine as one of the more powerful herbal prolactin inhibitors.

Howard

[Telo]

I'm sure all you milk thistle fans will find this as fascinating as I did:
Sierra Sciences has identified Silymarin as a potent inducer of telomerase.
(HeLa scores of ~2.4% at the time of the patent filing.)

I've posted a link to the recently released world patent application on product B, in the product B thread:
http://www.longecity...251#entry531251

Summarizing the patent in 2 sentences: Silymarin / milk thistle is the most potent natural inducer of telomerase described in the patent, and makes up ~50% of product B by weight. Different preparations/extractions of silymarin vary widely w/ respect to their ability to activate telomerase.

This is indeed a very remarkable compound.

Thanks for the heads up and the interesting information!

In the other thread you calculate that the different silymarin preparations mentioned in the Product B patent have Hela scores between 0.375 and 2.4. The obvious question for me is: If I buy a Silymarin (Siliphos) product from Swanson or Vitacost, how effective will it be as a telomerase activator? How different are their extraction/preparation methods compared to those of Isagenix/ Sierra sciences? Maybe all we can do is guess. Probably someone in here can make a more educated guess than a newbe like me...

[Logic]

Does the silymarin have to be bound to phosphatidylcholine, or can one just take both at the same time?

I have a product containing:
Milk Thistle (fine powder) 200mg
Milk Thistle (extract 80%) 200mg
Lecithin 50mg

[hav]

Hi, Logic. I got the impression from reading the paper that silymarin and polyene phosphatidylcholine benefit from a little help to get them to form into the desired complex. They dissolved them in acetone and heated at 122 degrees F in a reflux distillation tube for 2 hours before evaporating off the acetone. Not sure if the acetone actually contributed to the complex, however. If not, maybe taking the silymarin and polyene phosphatidylcholine together might result in little complex formation in the digestive tract. I saw a similar study on comparing various mixing techniques for cyclodextrin complexation (see: this post) that found rather good complex formation by simple mixing in a micronizing grinder without an additional solvent. Blood levels were not as long lasting with the solvent but fairly close with physical mixing showing higher peaking. Suggesting that intensive grinding with a mortar and pestle might help. Since that was a silymarin study, I probably should have posted it here...

Here's the graphic in the Beta-cyclodextrin/silymarin study that got me so interested:

Figure 7
Dissolution profiles of inclusion complexes of silymarin and β-cyclodextrin prepared using different methods. PM = Physical mixture, KN = kneading, CP = co-precipitation , SE = solvent evaporation

Simple physical mixture of silymarin and beta-cyclodextrin with a mortar and pestle increases water solubility from 20% to 100% and presumably dramatically increases bioavailability. Here's a similar article about using resveratrol and beta-cyclodextrin: Scientists consider cyclodextrins as resveratrol carriers. And a good toxicity study summary regarding use of beta-cyclodextrin as a food additive in the UK: Beta-Cyclodextrin (WHO Food Additives Series 32)... which seems to date back to 1994 but I'm not sure what happened in the UK approval process since then. As far as the US goes, I wasn't able to find any FDA approval but I did find this, where the FDA in 2005 seems to have made it a slight bit easier to get approval.

If anyone is interested in experimenting with this stuff, is seems to be available for research purposes on Amazon in pure and Hydroxypropyl forms.

Howard

[Logic]

Thx Howard

[DorianGrey]

I'm sure all you milk thistle fans will find this as fascinating as I did:
Sierra Sciences has identified Silymarin as a potent inducer of telomerase.
(HeLa scores of ~2.4% at the time of the patent filing.)

I've posted a link to the recently released world patent application on product B, in the product B thread:
http://www.longecity...251#entry531251

Summarizing the patent in 2 sentences: Silymarin / milk thistle is the most potent natural inducer of telomerase described in the patent, and makes up ~50% of product B by weight. Different preparations/extractions of silymarin vary widely w/ respect to their ability to activate telomerase.

This is indeed a very remarkable compound.

Thanks for the heads up and the interesting information!

In the other thread you calculate that the different silymarin preparations mentioned in the Product B patent have Hela scores between 0.375 and 2.4. The obvious question for me is: If I buy a Silymarin (Siliphos) product from Swanson or Vitacost, how effective will it be as a telomerase activator? How different are their extraction/preparation methods compared to those of Isagenix/ Sierra sciences? Maybe all we can do is guess. Probably someone in here can make a more educated guess than a newbe like me...

They found a modest effect in the patent, like 200 base pairs after 4 months or so, very similar what you'd expect from the Astragalus inducers from all I've read. This is anecdotal evidence, I really would like to see a meaningful study with enough subject to draw a real conclusion. It's said that even Tai Chi or meditation can cause telomer length changes, so when it comes to individual cases these small changes when someone's taken supplements are somehow sketchy. In the patent it's also a very complex stack of about 20 compounds.

Edited by DorianGrey, 14 May 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[derpington]

Look into nac for liver protection.

For prolactin, p5p, vitex, l dopa is good.

[blueinfinity]

im confused...

is this good/bad

what are the pros and cons, seems very much undecided so far...

im 25, male, and healthy, if it increases telomere length, that is good, but does it come at a sexual drive/hormone loss?

[Godof Smallthings]

I am interested in this, too, especially as something that could ease the load on the liver from taking many supplements.

Somebody here must have supplemented enough silymarin/milk thistle by now to have formed their own subjective opinion on the matter from experience?

[nowayout]

Loss of libido is a side effect in men.

Edited by nowayout, 04 October 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

Thank you for replying. Is that based on your personal experience? If not, could you post a link for further reading?

[theconomist]

I've been using 1g of Swanson's milk thistle for 3 months now, I feel absolutely no difference at all. I take a bit more when i'm going out drinking but I don't feel a difference either. It seems to be the case for me with most supps but I hope it is doing something. It's cheap so I'll keep taking it.

[KimberCT]

Milk Thistle has been part of my regimen for several years. Completely subjective, however, I feel slightly "better" on it than off. I consider it more an insurance supplement rather than something to take looking for an effect.

250mg @ 80% TID on an empty stomach. Libido is fine. Blood tests have always shown normal prolactin.

[Godof Smallthings]

Thanks a lot for your replies guys. Are you taking it as part of a stack, if so could you describe your stacks briefly - just to get an indication of what supps would be unlikely to cause adverse reactions.

The bottle I have sitting here is one of Now Foods two Silymarin versions, the one I have contains 300 mg milk thistle extract, standardized to 80% silymarin flavonoids, from fruit and seeds, and apart from that also 700 mg turmeric. I already know I can handle turmeric well.

I am not really looking for an effect, except that of possibly helping my liver a little, since I take quite a few other supps right now.

[nowayout]

Supplements should not be taken without a strong rationale. We don't know the possible side effects of every herbal supplement, so taking something with the vague idea that it is going to do something vaguely helpful to something in ways you cannot even properly articulate is really silly.