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Why Adderall / Ritalin isn't right for you!


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#1 Rhcan09

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 09:43 PM


I've wanted to comment on this issue for a while. Posts frequently come up on this board relating to Adderall / Ritalin (A&R henceforward) - quite often relating to where either can be purchased.

I think it's important to address two fundamental issues in this A&R "academic doping" debate. First, the legal implications, and second, the practical reality of what's really going on when students "dope" with A&R. I only use the phrase "dope" here, because unlike many of the nootropics we discuss, A&R are both incredibly illegal in most countries.


LEGAL ISSUES

I'm speaking with regards to Canada, though I understand that the situation is similar in the US.

Adderall and Ritalin are listed as "Schedule III" narcotics in Canada. This is the category that contains Meth, LSD, GHB, MDMA, Rohypnol, and other illicit street drugs.

I want to make clear - this isn't just a legal "fluke" true of many prescription medications. Quite the contrary. In fact, there are only 32 substances in "Schedule III" (from my count). Compare that to THOUSANDS of prescription drugs that are "regulated" by various other acts, but NOT criminalized. The fact that Ritalin and Adderall are Schedule III, is incredibly significant. In fact, from my knowledge of the other drugs in that category, I believe Adderall and Ritalin are the only Schedule III drugs that can ever be prescribed for legal home use.

In other words, Ritalin and Adderall are VERY VERY illegal. Possession of either without a prescription carries a penalty (in Canada) of up to 3 years in prison, and if they think you're trafficking (selling to friends) up to 10 years.

To be absolutely clear - possession of R&A is not a "gray area". It's very clearly illegal criminal behaviour, with significant penalties. Ordering R&A is not like ordering Viagra, pain meds, or anti-depressants online. This is serious illicit drug territory.


PRACTICAL ISSUES

I find the practical side of this A&R debate much more interesting. I grew up with a lot of exposure to the science and research surrounding learning disabilities, and particularly ADD / ADHD - my parents were in the field.

The characteristic challenge posed by attention deficit disorders, is an inability to focus and maintain a clear train of thought. Given this, it's logical to assume that Ritalin and Adderall (treatments for ADD/ADHD) are some sort of mental calming agents, that induce tranquility, and slow an individual's thought process, keeping it on task.

That assumption is logical enough, but it's entirely wrong.

In fact, A&R are the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. They're amphetamine-like stimulants! Similar to meth, speed, ephedrine, really really strong mutant coffee, etc.

Here's the cool part. In people that actually have ADD/ADHD, these stimulants interact with their disorder to tame it, allowing them to stay calm, focussed, and killing their hyperactivity. You can imagine that for someone with ADD/ADHD, this presents them with a REMARKABLE advantage over their non-medicated state. They can pay attention in school, learn new tasks at work, organize their lives, and digest standardized tests like regular people.

For people without ADD/ADHD, these stimulants are - just stimulants. They do exactly what stimulants always do, they stimulate. They give you energy, keep you awake, keep you alert, etc. But the major benefit that they have for ADD/ADHD sufferers, namely the removal of a significant impediment to learning, is lost on regular individuals - because they don't have that impediment to remove.


SO WHAT'S REALLY HAPPENING?

Most students take a very superficial view of the function of Adderall/Ritalin. The flawed argument employed is "Hey, Adderall/Ritalin makes people with ADD smarter, so it can make me, a regular person, smarter too!"

But that's a really weak logical argument. Crutches significantly improve the speed of walking for someone with a broken leg. For someone without a broken leg, they wouldn't be very helpful!

But here's the weird part. Regardless of everything I've just said, it's pretty hard to deny that Ritalin and Adderall are ACTUALLY HELPING NORMAL STUDENTS GET HIGHER GRADES.

Students that take R&A for off-label uses without a prescription, DO seem to get better grades in the real world. Such a basic, fact-based observation is hard to reconcile.

Or is it?

My contention, is that Adderall and Ritalin help students achieve better grades through the same mechanism as ephedrine, speed, and other amphetamines have been doing for decades - they keep students really damn awake, for hours and hours and hours.

That's it. Nothing magical. R&A are really powerful stimulants - more powerful than caffeine, ephedrine, or modafinil - they keep students awake and studying much longer.

There's no mechanistic interaction with the brain that "makes you smarter". In fact, the science behind what's going on with R&A is much less interesting than the science behind some of our most boring noortopic substances like Piracetam, or Huperzine.


SO WHO CARES?

If I had to bottom line my reason for spending 30 minutes on this post, it would essentially be to convey the notion that Adderall and Ritalin really aren't the way to go from a studying / mental acuity perspective.

Clearly, if I'm posting here, I have no general principalled aversion to supplimenting for cognitive improvement. My objection to R&A is purely risk/reward based. Given the illegality involved, coupled with the relatively non-unique nature of what R&A do, why would it ever make sense to go that route?

You can keep yourself artificially awake with a whole plethera of other substances. From purely organic items like ginseng, caffeine, etc, to substances like sulbutiamine and CDP sources, all the way to pharmaceuticals like modafinil, nuvigil, or adrafinil (neither of which have criminal sanctions for posession - in Canada at least).

Given my thesis that there is no mental improvement element to R&A above and beyond the general benefits of a really good stimulant, why not go with a safer, cheaper, and more easily accessible alternative route?

Edited by Rhcan09, 25 March 2010 - 09:47 PM.


#2 winston

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Posted 25 March 2010 - 10:43 PM

Yeah, nootropics are certainly a better option in the long run. Too bad more of them aren't part of an enjoyable "ritual" like drinking coffee. Most people aren't going to go online and find out about the world of nootropics, sadly. I'd really love to see some of them get pushed into the mainstream in the future.

I think occasional off label adderall usage is okay though, if you really need to push through some homework.

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#3 LabRat84

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 02:12 AM

Adderall definitely made me smarter, or at least let me run at full capacity for longer and more often. When I started I was coming up with huge ideas, connecting different disciplines, really absorbing tons of information in very little time, and processing things like I had never before. If Adderall just boosted norepinephrine, then I'd say it's only a stimulant effect. But it boosts dopamine too, which is involved in learning and attention (and, yes, reward).

Amphetamines have been used as a smart drug for a long time. Paul Erdos, the prolific mathematician, was a regular user. (You can read about that in the Wikipedia entry on amphetamines).
http://www.amphetami...paul-erdos.html

There are long-term effects/risks. Kids with ADHD still get the adrenergic effects (high blood pressure, increased heart rate) from amphetamines, which is why clonidine (an alpha-2 blocker) is often prescribed with them.


Modafinil is "cleaner" stimulant more like coffee without the jitters.

#4 Animal

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 11:53 AM

I always find it amusing when ignorant people make the supposition that amphetamines or methylphenidate are somehow custom made for the treatment of ADD. It's simply because we have no way of selectively increasing dopaminergic activity in the prefrontal cortex that a saturation approach is adopted and the brain is flooded with dopaminergic/noradrenergic agents. Anyone with a basic knowledge of neurochemistry knows that increasing dopamine and noradrenaline result in reduced synaptic activation thresholds and hypersensitive neuronal cascades, increasing the capacity for attention, linear creativity and beta wave frequency by as much as 10Hz.

Simply put the OP has made assumptions completely irrespective of the pharmacokinetics of the substances in question, and is therefore plain wrong.
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#5 Rhcan09

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 01:58 PM

I always find it amusing when ignorant people make the supposition that amphetamines or methylphenidate are somehow custom made for the treatment of ADD. It's simply because we have no way of selectively increasing dopaminergic activity in the prefrontal cortex that a saturation approach is adopted and the brain is flooded with dopaminergic/noradrenergic agents. Anyone with a basic knowledge of neurochemistry knows that increasing dopamine and noradrenaline result in reduced synaptic activation thresholds and hypersensitive neuronal cascades, increasing the capacity for attention, linear creativity and beta wave frequency by as much as 10Hz.

Simply put the OP has made assumptions completely irrespective of the pharmacokinetics of the substances in question, and is therefore plain wrong.


At what point did I suggest that amphetamines or methylphenidates were custom made for the treatment of ADD?

I suggested that those without ADD lack the particular circumstances that make the said substances particularly effective above and beyond the impact of their use as mere stimulants.

With respect, this contention appears to be echoed by the medical profession.

#6 winston

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 03:35 PM

Well you sort of made the suggestion that Adderall is an ADHD drug. It's really just a drug that happens to be prescribed for that condition. Also you kind of dismissed it because it doesn't do anything besides being a stimulant, but stimulants can be great so I don't see your point there. Yes, in ADHD people it may be more than just a stimulant, but that doesn't mean it's not great even for people without it ADHD.

I agree with your conclusion, that nootropics are a better option in most cases, but the way you got to that conclusion is flawed, IMO.

#7 LabRat84

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 05:11 PM

I always find it amusing when ignorant people make the supposition that amphetamines or methylphenidate are somehow custom made for the treatment of ADD. It's simply because we have no way of selectively increasing dopaminergic activity in the prefrontal cortex that a saturation approach is adopted and the brain is flooded with dopaminergic/noradrenergic agents. Anyone with a basic knowledge of neurochemistry knows that increasing dopamine and noradrenaline result in reduced synaptic activation thresholds and hypersensitive neuronal cascades, increasing the capacity for attention, linear creativity and beta wave frequency by as much as 10Hz.

Simply put the OP has made assumptions completely irrespective of the pharmacokinetics of the substances in question, and is therefore plain wrong.


This is absolutely correct. There are several selective dopaminergic compounds that aren't developed into drugs because by themselves they'd be worthless-but in combination they could be promising. Instead doctors just flood the brain with DA and NE and hope for the best.

Something else to consider: As for the "hyperactivity" part, NE causes long-term reduction in thyroid activity, both by downreguating expression of thyroglobulin http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15929661 and decreasing iodine uptake http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9349587 . This leads to lower energy levels in the long-term, and if enough to induce hypothyroidism could actually lead to short-term memory deficits.

I've been on Adderall for 3 months. In the beginning I was losing weight and had tons of energy; now I have stopped losing weight and have trouble waking up in the morning. I'm pretty sure I'm borderline hypothyroid. I had my thyroid levels checked; TSH is normal but T3 and T4 are on the low end of the range. My body temperature is also usually between 96 and 97, and this morning was 95.5 upon waking. I'm pretty sure that's due to NE. I have a follow-up with my neurologist on Monday to confirm.

In short, Adderall (a stimulant) is probably turning energetic kids into zombies, paradoxically. Purely dopinamergic solutions wouldn't cause thyroid reduction.

#8 chrono

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 02:40 AM

At what point did I suggest that amphetamines or methylphenidates were custom made for the treatment of ADD?

I suggested that those without ADD lack the particular circumstances that make the said substances particularly effective above and beyond the impact of their use as mere stimulants.

I think "custom made" was a slightly hyperbolic metaphor, much like those you used to construct most of your argument.

What you suggest is that usage of adderall/ritalin is only therapeutic if you have AD(H)D, and otherwise is merely stimulating in a generally recreational/wakefulness-inducing way. There are plenty of papers which detail the mechanism of these drugs (dopamine and NE, as animal outlined); saying they only improve cognition if you have ADD is simply wrong. Modulation of these neurotransmitters will have a positive mental effect on most people; they are considered "therapeutic" in the case of attentional difficulty because they happen to ameliorate certain symptoms in the process.

I've been prescribed adderall for ADD for many years, and your description of both the disorder and the effects of the drug do not apply to me. ADD is not an etiology, it is a collection of symptoms with many different causes.

Your argument shows a lack of understanding about these drugs, what their subjective and pharmacokinetic effects are, and the disorders you're trying to connect them with. What you say may be a contention of the medical profession, but not of science. Doctors and teachers believe the most incredible myths about these drugs, that anyone who has ever taken them would laugh at.

There are many reasons why these drugs may not be right for anybody, but you don't seem to have listed many of them—neurotoxicity, habituation, sleep deprivation, dependence on dopaminergic agents for motivation, euphoria, adverse side effects and health concerns, flattening of affect and emotional responses, etc. If you want to dissuade people from taking these, you need to do your homework and acknowledge the benefits, so people can take your argument seriously.

One paper showing cognitive improvement in healthy subjects: Amphetamine improves cognitive function in medicated individuals with schizophrenia and in healthy volunteers.

#9 christopherforums

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 03:36 AM

As someone who is prescribed 70mg Vyvanse + 20 mg Addy IR x 2 (once in morning, once in afternoon as my vyvanse begins to wear off..) it is safe to conclude doctors have concluded my ADHD is pretty substantial...

With that being said, I really do not believe in ADHD so much. Sure the amphetamines keep my ass in check, but they keep me in check in the ways that I know I can and have done naturally at certain times when certain subjects/activities motivated me.

Anyone see the south park where all the kids were prescribed ritalin? They test to see if they had ADD was read them the great gatsby and if they got bored, they had ADD..

Case and point.. amphetamines make boring subjects fun and interesting, and fun subjects EXTREMELY interesting. I won't ramble..

Look up DESOXYN. Have fun with that.

It is ridiculous to me how uneducated people seem to be. ADHD drugs will only affect someone with ADHD? Take amphetamine/methamphetamine every day, at the same time, at the same dosage, after about 2-4 weeks the nasty side effects pretty much subside and one is left with a mostly "calming" effect. By calming I do not mean relaxed haha, just TAME enough to FOCUS on something that is highly uninteresting. Basically a large majority of people, including CHILDREN are functioning speed addicts, unbeknownst.

There will never be a blood test, urinalysis, or scan or any kind of medical examination beyond asking a couple questions and observing behavior that will diagnose ADHD/ADD. But hey, shire pharmaceuticals forecasts billion dollar goals with vyvanse. If it makes America more productive, im all for it. Just be careful with blood pressure and don't get high.

FURTHER DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW ANIRACETAM WILL AFFECT VYVANSE !!!
I have been taking both and seem to be doing well.

#10 chrono

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 03:53 AM

There will never be a blood test, urinalysis, or scan or any kind of medical examination beyond asking a couple questions and observing behavior that will diagnose ADHD/ADD.


Lumping all attentional problems into 'not being able to pay attention to boring things' is a vast oversimplification. South Park's job is to reduce a controversy into something clever and absurd; it is sometimes insightful, but never anything like a whole argument. If you've never been in a situation where you can't pay attention to things you enjoy and are passionate about, for years on end, you're a lucky boy. Saying that there is no single cause or "disease" that is ADD is a far cry from saying there are no physiological causes or indicators.

Also, if you're taking 110mg of amphetamine salts a day when you can function without it, you might think about re-evaluating some things.

Edited by chrono, 01 April 2010 - 03:53 AM.


#11 Animal

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 12:40 PM

I actually agree with Christopher on many of the points he makes, often the diagnostic criteria for ADD is just too vague. I was diagnosed with ADDPI many years ago and prescribed adderall, and it helped immensely. But I was not satisfied as it seemed to be simply masking symptoms rather then being any kind of solution.

It turned out that I don't have ADD, I just display many of the symptoms due to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalopathy. Of course the adderall temporally addressed the fatigue and so eliminated the symptoms of ADD. I could have continued taking it, but ultimately it just made the fatigue worse, and I became dependent on it to function at all, not just to pay attention when I needed to. So I'm managing the fatigue in other ways, although I still take stimulants (nothing as potent as amphetamine) to allow me to function at the level I need to.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think it is a minority of cases where the individual truly lacks dopaminergic tone in the pre-frontal cortex, and in other cases the ADD symptoms have etiology that would be better treated directly rather then masked with amphetamine.

#12 chrono

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 02:11 PM

Oh, it is undeniably over-diagnosed. Or at least, too many sets of symptoms are lumped into the same diagnosis. Using adderall to confirm this is especially problematic, as it produces such a global improvement in all manner of individuals.

I lack many of the classical symptoms of ADHD, but have essentially all the attention/motivation/anxiety indicators of dopamine deficiency. Took a couple years' break from adderall, but have reluctantly started on it recently because I'm useless at some basic things without it. Am looking forward to trying out some more selective dopamine agonists this year, starting with deprenyl and pramipexole.

#13 russianBEAR

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 08:00 PM

Let me give you a short version:

Adderall = two different kinds of amphetamines mixed together (I think the d-isomer and the "regular"). Black market amphetamines are illegal, this isn't.

Methamphetamine is/was sold as Desoxyn (is it still in production?) - perfectly legal. Black market meth is illegal and subject to massive anti-drug propaganda showing what are alleged to be users and ex-users who are disfigured etc.

So what's the difference ? Only in purity. You're still taking a powerful central nervous system stimulant which is very bad for your heart, and even worse for your mental faculties in the long run. 

Same with painkillers - Oxycontin isn't that much weaker than heroin (I've tried both) but it's easily prescribed for everything. Codeine is over the counter here...you can make acetyl-codeine out of it, which is pretty close to diacetylmorphine (aka heroin)...what's the difference ? It's about 1.5 times less potent is all...

So if you're being prescribed hard drugs, which is basically what's going on when you're getting any of the said substances, don't be surprised if your body/brain are all fucked up later. It really is mind-boggling how straight up fuckin junk is basically prescribed to otherwise healthy individuals.

I'd rather suffer from ADD than be a tweaker or a junkie for life - because let's face it that's what you become if you take stimulants or opioids, it's just a label but as you can see from above it's true.

Say no to drugs kids!

 

The difference between drugs and medicine is in the dosage they say around here...and it's true.

#14 polybi

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:20 PM

Let me give you a short version:

Adderall = two different kinds of amphetamines mixed together (I think the d-isomer and the "regular"). Black market amphetamines are illegal, this isn't.

Methamphetamine is/was sold as Desoxyn (is it still in production?) - perfectly legal. Black market meth is illegal and subject to massive anti-drug propaganda showing what are alleged to be users and ex-users who are disfigured etc.

So what's the difference ? Only in purity. You're still taking a powerful central nervous system stimulant which is very bad for your heart, and even worse for your mental faculties in the long run.

Same with painkillers - Oxycontin isn't that much weaker than heroin (I've tried both) but it's easily prescribed for everything. Codeine is over the counter here...you can make acetyl-codeine out of it, which is pretty close to diacetylmorphine (aka heroin)...what's the difference ? It's about 1.5 times less potent is all...

So if you're being prescribed hard drugs, which is basically what's going on when you're getting any of the said substances, don't be surprised if your body/brain are all fucked up later. It really is mind-boggling how straight up fuckin junk is basically prescribed to otherwise healthy individuals.

I'd rather suffer from ADD than be a tweaker or a junkie for life - because let's face it that's what you become if you take stimulants or opioids, it's just a label but as you can see from above it's true.

Say no to drugs kids!



The difference between drugs and medicine is in the dosage they say around here...and it's true.


its l-amp btw

Desoxyn is still in production

sorry but if codeine is otc the chances are your in the uk canada or australia and if thats the case Oxycontin is not easily aviable.

acetyl-codeine is toxic and as far as i know no one makes it

and d-amp isnt that toxic in prescribed doses ill cite if you want

#15 chrono

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 09:54 PM

russianbear lives in russia :|?

Would be interested in those references, though.

#16 polybi

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 10:08 PM

oops apologies i have no idea how easy it iss to get oxy in rusia.


which bit do you want me to cite? as ill have to dig it out



#17 Ben

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 12:34 PM

Wise words:

Let me give you a short version:

Adderall = two different kinds of amphetamines mixed together (I think the d-isomer and the "regular"). Black market amphetamines are illegal, this isn't.

Methamphetamine is/was sold as Desoxyn (is it still in production?) - perfectly legal. Black market meth is illegal and subject to massive anti-drug propaganda showing what are alleged to be users and ex-users who are disfigured etc.

So what's the difference ? Only in purity. You're still taking a powerful central nervous system stimulant which is very bad for your heart, and even worse for your mental faculties in the long run.

Same with painkillers - Oxycontin isn't that much weaker than heroin (I've tried both) but it's easily prescribed for everything. Codeine is over the counter here...you can make acetyl-codeine out of it, which is pretty close to diacetylmorphine (aka heroin)...what's the difference ? It's about 1.5 times less potent is all...

So if you're being prescribed hard drugs, which is basically what's going on when you're getting any of the said substances, don't be surprised if your body/brain are all fucked up later. It really is mind-boggling how straight up fuckin junk is basically prescribed to otherwise healthy individuals.

I'd rather suffer from ADD than be a tweaker or a junkie for life - because let's face it that's what you become if you take stimulants or opioids, it's just a label but as you can see from above it's true.

Say no to drugs kids!



The difference between drugs and medicine is in the dosage they say around here...and it's true.



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#18 Jurence

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 08:00 AM

I could care less how similar it is to meth/speed- it gives me an advantage that I need to compete. I am prescribed adderall because, when not on my noot stack, it is deathly impossible for me to focus on anything for more than 10 seconds. I can multitask like a god but can't get any one project done. Sometimes I double my dosage to study.

And as for the OP saying "it just makes you study longer woopdy-doo" -- yeah, that's the point ;)




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