89 replies to this topic

[chrwe]

Hello Luna,

your boyfriend is right about the anxiety. Unfortunately, I cannot just "choose" faith over the 95% likely fact that my personality and personal consciousness is merely and totally a product of my intact brain - something that will be lost to oblivion upon death, something that can be lost even before due to brain injury or degeneration. I have a scientific mind and the evidence is just screaming in my face. Same as you and others here, I cant overcome it by wishful thinking. Having said that, there might be something to the idea that there is some sort of "uber-consciousness" that is not part of my brain and that is something like an energy in the universe - and that survives death. NDEs and such seem to suggest this. However, this is no comfort because even this is highly unlikely and its also no use, since I only care about the "me" that my brain is producing. I suspect like Dr. Blackmoore, I would not even believe if I personally had an NDE or OOBE.

At the moment, I find it very hard to keep going on this brutal path. I am much older than you - I find myself looking at young students, looking at my kids and fiercly envying them the years that they have over me, years that may enable them to reach physical immortality while it may be too late for me. I see wrinkles and some first grey hair, I can see my body starting to go downhill, I am starting to have health issues...I cant sleep a single night since a few months when this really hit me.

The reason why I came to you all for advice is that I suspected - many of you being highly intelligent atheists or agnostics - that some of you have the same issue. Maybe not as bad as I do, but to some extent. And I thought you might have some pratical suggestions how to deal with it.

I did sign up for cryonics, although I have trouble with my insurance and also, not living in the USA, I fear the chances are much worse for me because I will have to be transported after death. I am starting with CR. Supplements and such - dunno, most seem to be untried and later proven dangerous. There is just not much one can do, maddeningly! I try to work for SENS and imminst -it the most important work in our times in my opinion.

My husband - he does not want to hear about this endlessly, understandably. He is also a believer in the afterlife. To my "brain damage" argument, he only replies "but God knows the right "me", and that is the me that will be restored". You cant argue with faith, and to be honest, I envy him fiercly - I wish I could believe like this. What does it matter if he is totally wrong? He will live and die in peace and I will not. He promised me that he will support my cryonics plan, and I hope he does, but he wont choose cryonics. I`ll see what my kids will do.

I would so like to live the remaining years that I have - hopefully a great many - in a happy fashion. Once I am dead, I wont care, but now I do :(. And yes, I too would prefer hell, at least I would exist and maybe God would save me in time (if I suppose a hell, I suppose a God). Oblivion is just the worst thing I can imagine, mainly because of its total finality, and the fact that its the 95% (I insist that 5% agnosticism is warranted due to the gaps in science) likely option just makes me want to scream "please help" - but there is no one to listen. That cruelty alone is an argument against the existence of a loving God in my opinion.

Hah, like you, Luna, I also dont see how everyone can sleep so comfortably when their beds are literally burning! I dont count the people with faith - they have comfort - but the atheists. I honestly know quite a few who are not afraid of oblivion. I`m clueless how this can be. It`s a personality thing I guess. Only thing that helps me a bit is that there is good evidence that fear lessens a lot once your body is very old and actually failing big time - endless sleep doesnt seem to sound bad to most people then. Urgh. But its not all, only most...argh. Some fight till the end, the poor ones, I know how they feel I think.

I`ll get a vey thorough medical check up next week, maybe there is also some physical component to this because it is so specially bad at nights and I wake up all tense even when I dream about perfectly mundane stuff.

Edited by chrwe, 30 May 2010 - 06:12 AM.

[Luna]

Hey chrwe!

Yep, I can't understand how atheists accept dying, some say it's even a comfort thought.. what the?

Listen, about cryonics, you're in your 30s, aren't you? By the time you are in your 50s there should be an institute close to you, I am sure. And let's just hope Kurzweil is right and you won't even need it (but yeah, hard to believe, I know) @@..

I personally can't take comfort in thinking "if I am dead I won't care", what I am thinking is "I wouldn't be able to care! I WANT TO CARE, I CARE NOW!" ..

Let's just hope to never die and do the best we can. Hopefully we are much more pessimistic than we are supposed to be, but I dunno.

I wouldn't believe in after life even if I had a NDE or OOE, I would just believe it's the brain playing stuff to comfort me due to the situation or something.

[Brafarality]

Back again. Can't get enough of this topic.
I am the artist formerly known as paulthekind.
[[In an occasional attempt to sweep away the obnoxious online persona I fronted in 2007-2008, I do stuff like this, so once I realized I could actually change display name (just realized it 10 min ago!) I did so instantly and replaced it with a mod name, pronounced: braff-a-ral-i-ty
Like, I am the cult of I am the cult of I am the cult of I am the cult of braff-a-ral-i-ty!]]

The most elementary particles, bosons and fermions, can give rise to emergent water and nerve cells and headphones and black holes, but not consciousness. Consciousness cannot be created by or reduced to bosons and fermions. Yes, such a block approach skips 10 levels of complexity, but ultimately is an inevitable analysis:
And, taking the rumpled up sheet and blanket as brain and consciousness analogy further, perhaps, once the brain dies, it disintegrates and consciousness untangles easily with nothing more to prevent it from doing so.
It is so unsettling that our strongest intuitions hint that a soppy organ cannot possibly give rise to consciousness and yet that same intuition also hints and our senses support the unavoidable realization that brain and mind are so inveterately convolved that it is difficult to conclude anything other than one gives rise to the other.
That was repetitive. Nothing new to add, but just want to keep this tremendously compelling and fascinating dialog alive, like it is a vigil or something.

Edited by Brafarality, 30 May 2010 - 09:02 AM.

[Luna]

Why is it counter intuitive to believe that the brain can give rise to consciousness? I don't find it hard to believe it does so all by its own at all.

Consciousness is the combination of things working and interacting with each other (to make and short and non-complex), we feel conscious because we see, we remember, we learn, we analyze, we feel.

It is not hard for me to believe that AI will once feel just the same. So saying "Oh there has to be there! I mean, it just doesn't mean sense, it can't be that our brain alone gives rise to consciousness." Just doesn't work and points at two things:

1) Lack of knowledge.
2) Wishful thinking/Ignorance (choose! it's one for some the other for the rest I guess).

So no, the brain is the reason for consciousness, take it away (and don't replace it with some other processors that do its job right) and you're dead, sorry.

[Brafarality]

Why is it counter intuitive to believe that the brain can give rise to consciousness? I don't find it hard to believe it does so all by its own at all.

Consciousness is the combination of things working and interacting with each other (to make and short and non-complex), we feel conscious because we see, we remember, we learn, we analyze, we feel.

It is not hard for me to believe that AI will once feel just the same. So saying "Oh there has to be there! I mean, it just doesn't mean sense, it can't be that our brain alone gives rise to consciousness." Just doesn't work and points at two things:

1) Lack of knowledge.
2) Wishful thinking/Ignorance (choose! it's one for some the other for the rest I guess).

So no, the brain is the reason for consciousness, take it away (and don't replace it with some other processors that do its job right) and you're dead, sorry.

It's just that it is not that difficult to see how water can be composed of elementary particles; like, I can take a single elementary particle in isolation and realize it is nothing whatsoever like water or a neuron, but can still see the connection, how it is a building block of sorts.
I just can't do that with consciousness: I can't take a single elementary particle, insofar as one can be isolated from the substrate, and accept that that particle is a building block of consciousness, that consciousness is composed of them, like, if you break down consciousness, you end up with elementary particles, cause, for better or worse, that is what brain=mind means, when taken to that limit.
Wow!
Sorry. I really wish I had some more forceful mental activity here, but nada, nicht, rien.

[chrwe]

Lets not digress this topic too much to the old consciousness debate which we will not solve 100% here

this is about the fear of people who believe that they will die, permanent, forever, lights out and so on

and if there are strategies for that fear

[Kutta]

Edited by Kutta, 30 May 2010 - 11:16 AM.

[Brafarality]

Lets not digress this topic too much to the old consciousness debate which we will not solve 100% here

this is about the fear of people who believe that they will die, permanent, forever, lights out and so on

and if there are strategies for that fear

You are right, of course. Sorry about that!

[Luna]

I must say.. reading this: http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry411716

just makes me fall back into anxiety and discourage

[bacopa]

We desperately need the world to know these things, and get many more people working on the problem.

Don't forget, that everyone is susceptible to all kinds of diseases, some deadly, in their full life time. So it's a matter of getting one's voice heard and maybe even scaring people into fixing the problem.

We need more people writing to the FDA, and NIH, and so on.

And smart minds working on the problem.

Edited by dfowler, 03 June 2010 - 07:08 PM.

[Luna]

but the people in the fda are stupid, suicidal and don't want to save people apparently :/

[eternaltraveler]

but the people in the fda are stupid, suicidal and don't want to save people apparently :/

human being's intentions have remarkably little to do with it. The system is what is deficient.

[bacopa]

but the people in the fda are stupid, suicidal and don't want to save people apparently :/

human being's intentions have remarkably little to do with it. The system is what is deficient.

Exactly, Luna don't forget that the people in the FDA fear the same diseases, etc.

The system may be badly run, and let's hope it gets changed soon. Obviously a complex problem.

[eternaltraveler]

The system may be badly run

the system is not all that badly run. The design of the system is the problem.

[JJN]

I guess, in general, anxieties can be described as a worry about the likelyhood of something bad happening, the consequences of it happening, and maybe, thinking about what can be done to avoid, or ameliorate it.

Death is 100% likely at this time. The consequences are, to some, the most dire thing that can happen. There is very little of consequence that the individual can do about it.

I'm not going to discuss spirituality or cryonics at this time, as this post is for those who simply don't "see it" as any sort of reasonable option for themselves. It's great if you can
find solace in these things, but some of us just are not, and will not, be inclined towards it.

How does one find "happiness" in living a life that they know will only, and definitely, lead to a "Dead end"?

Some think that because of that, life is totally hopeless. Some, live happily with that knowledge; they are able to defer the worry until such a time when it is looming more largely in their lives.
I guess that is the range, with many people being somewhere in-between.

Sorry, I don't have time right now to write more, but hope to come back later and address some of the points I've made. I think that there are ways to get the best possible
perspective on this fear.

Please feel free to respond to what I've already written.

[JJN]

Continued...

Please consider the source of these ideas... they come from someone who is not highly educated, well-read, or well-studied.
Just from someone with a mostly objective mind, and 50 years of life experience (my b-day was saturday--- amazingly made
it through another decade! woo-hoo!).

So, anyways... being technically inclined, and science-minded, I like to try to understand things in a fact-based, logical way.
First thing, to me, is clearly define what we are talking about.

There are people who can go through life without some sort of "Big Meaning", or "Major Point to it All". Basically, they worry
mostly only about what they can control, what is actionable in the near term. Won't say they're always elated (except for some
lucky, rare souls); they go through life's ups and downs, but are able to find some sort of joy in the moment,
maybe through some activity, interaction, pleasant reflections, pleasant hopes, and so on.

For whatever cause, they have no great, lingering fears or anxieties. And they are able to do this without any great over-riding
philosophy, or religion, or so forth.

What is the cause of some of us not being able to do this? I'm not a psychologist, so I don't have any answers from that field.
In the mind, there may be such things as learned helplessness, and things of that nature, but I'm not familiar with them.

Also, I'm assuming we aren't talking about any other conditions that may exist; any medical, or psychiatrically clinical issues,
although if the anxieties and fears are badly interfering with your life, it's possible that there is a clinical problem of some type.

In general, we're talking about people who are otherwise able to put day to day things into a reasonable perspective, but seeing
that "Dead end" at the end of it all, that most grievious, dire thing that can happen to us, just takes all the fun out of everything.

TBC...

Edited by JJN, 22 July 2011 - 01:44 AM.

[JJN]

...continued

At this point, I realise I have to put more thought into what I want to say next.

It would also be better to put this into a blog, which I have been meaning to do here for a long time.

Hope I can get to it soon.

[Elus]

It's things like these that make me even more paranoid about the seemingly placid world around me: http://www.nytimes.c...ope/23oslo.html

[revenant]

Like many others, I have acted to save myself from the attrition of aging. I am onto to something amazing now. This search/mind-set/lifestyle, and the results I have seen, have spared me from the sorrow and constant awareness of an on-rushing darkness that plagues our species.

[Musli]

The best you can do, chrwe, is to fight for your life. Let me explain.
First, ensure that you do a lot to maximize your lifespan with the current state of knowledge. Healthy lifestyle + some supplements are a good start.
Second, help anti aging science. There are two options: a) be a scientist and research aging or b) help find more money for further research and development. I assume option a) is out of reach so there's option b). You can spread the word, inform ignorant people about the ongoing research and the possible solutions to aging that could be available in the near future, you can help organize conferences similar to SENS' in your country/city, organize funds and so on. There are quite a few possibilities to actively support anti aging science. And believe me, you will feel a lot better knowing that you're trying to do everything you can to fight aging. Death causes anxiety because you cant do anything about at the moment, but that will change. Science is advancing at a phenomenal rate so put your hope in science and try to increase your chances of making the cut. Try to think like this: I will make the cut! I will make the cut!

Best wishes,
Nick

Edited by Musli, 28 August 2011 - 08:06 PM.

[hallucinogen]

It's Not the end, - it's the Beginning !
Many indigenous people knew that Reality is a Dream which we will eventually wake up from (;

[Luminosity]

Does anyone else here have this problem? What did you do?

They started this site.

But seriously, if you can find a good talk therapist, it might help. Obviously you are not alone. It's part of the human condition.

I don't know if it helps, but there is life after death, there is reincarnation, and heaven exists. But everyone also has a fear of death and that is a real thing we have to deal with. Find a way to express and release your feelings, either in therapy or, if you have to, by journaling or expressing in whatever way helps you.

[nowayout]

Psychedelics. From the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.c...ychedelics.html

Dr. Griffiths and his colleagues have gone on to give psilocybin to people dealing with cancer and depression, like Dr. Martin, the retired psychologist from Vancouver. Dr. Martin’s experience is fairly typical, Dr. Griffiths said: an improved outlook on life after an experience in which the boundaries between the self and others disappear.

Researchers are reporting preliminary success in using psilocybin to ease the anxiety of patients with terminal illnesses. Dr. Charles S. Grob, a psychiatrist who is involved in an experiment at U.C.L.A., describes it as “existential medicine” that helps dying people overcome fear, panic and depression.

“Under the influences of hallucinogens,” Dr. Grob writes, “individuals transcend their primary identification with their bodies and experience ego-free states before the time of their actual physical demise, and return with a new perspective and profound acceptance of the life constant: change.”

Edited by viveutvivas, 31 August 2011 - 06:40 AM.

[TheKidInside]

I was unbelievably afraid of this for a long time, it impeded my ability to function at times even or to strive for achievement until I discovered meditation, hypnosis, etc and came across death meditation. I performed it once and my fears were gone

http://www.meditatio..._meditation.htm

[Noodles]

Sorry to necro this thread but I had to reply.

I have exactly that, waking up at night panicking etc etc etc... My memory of anxiety goes back to when I was 6/7 years old..
It's good to know I am not the only one!

Did the OP ever find any relief in any sense?

[nowayout]

There was an interesting recent study that found that the over the counter painkiller acetaminophen (paracetamol) was effective in reducing existential anxiety/depression of this type. I am a big sufferer from this and I am giving it a try starting today. You can perhaps google it.

Edited by viveutvivas, 19 April 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[David Le]

There was an interesting recent study that found that the over the counter painkiller acetaminophen (paracetamol) was effective in reducing existential anxiety/depression of this type. I am a big sufferer from this and I am giving it a try starting today. You can perhaps google it.

indeed, im trying it out and see how it turns out. Hoping to only use this as a temporary method and find my own enlightenment soon after. Reading this thread has calmed me in some way. Thank you all

[Passion]

In similar situations, I've always found hope to be the most helpful approach. It's silly to have senseless hope, but hoping for "immortality" within this lifetime is far from unrealistic. We have many great minds working on this problem and from many different angles.

There is a growing body of research showing that Buckyballs (C60) can significantly increase animal (potentially human) lifespan (I'm pretty sure I read up to 50%). There are scientists everywhere researching the effects of stem-cells on incurable diseases, a path which could likely lead to the use of stem-cells for system-wide cellular repair and renovation (fountain of youth?).

We also have a team of scientists in Russia working on devices and technologies to transfer our consciousness into less susceptible (robot) bodies. You can check this out at http://2045.com.

The future is coming! Don't give in to inevitability, fight for your life with every way you know how. If you have the mental/financial capacity to do so, push yourself to join or contribute to one of these initiatives so you have more of a hands-on approach.

Here's a really cool interview between NY Times and Ray Kurzweil, an engineer and futurist (most likely older than you) who truly believes he will live forever and doesn't hesitate to show how or why.
http://www.nytimes.c...rever.html?_r=0

Here's an article about him on the Wallstreet Journal:
http://online.wsj.co...1386515510.html

Have hope and fight with it all the way through. Recognize and realize that fear is your main problem and overcoming it may be your key to overcoming death.

[robosapiens]

This may not give you any solace, but I have experienced the trauma from the realization of my inevitable demise ever since I first realized what death was as a child, death shock.

One thing I (his brain) have come to understand is that we as animals have a natural instinct for avoiding death and harm, it is hardwired into us.

When this brain considers that a brain creates a self, an ego personality, and that the self is a process and is never exactly the same from one moment to the next, just as we can't touch the same river twice, our brain is 'self-ing' continually and that event is always in a state of change, there is no distinct object called self at all that dies.
Many people have come to this realization by meditation on the nature of self, or by psychedelic experiences.

The emergent wave function/event called self collapses and is recreated continually, but never the same.

Much like a huge flock of synchronized starlings form a beautiful scene of moving dark 'clouds' in the skies, Self is a Verb.

samsara within a skull

Edited by robosapiens, 25 October 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[BlueCloud]

I personnally find fear of death a bit absurd, unless you're religious and believe in afterlife/heaven/hell/etc..

It boils down to a simple equation : When you're alive, well, you're not dead. And when you're dead, well, you're not there anymore to notice that you're not alive anymore.
You can work towards longevity without stressing about your own death ( plus, stress is bad for health.. kind of a paradox )

I fear the loss of loved ones much much more than I fear my own death ( and I actually fear the way I might die , not the fact that I won't be here anymore. I hope it will be peaceful and quick. )

Edited by BlueCloud, 13 December 2013 - 12:59 PM.