89 replies to this topic

[chrwe]

Hi folks,

I`ve been suffering from bad or very bad phases of death anxiety since I was a child. I just cannot accept that my consciousness will end one day, forever, and that`s that. It`s driving me nuts and keeping me from enjoying my life (37 years old now, but this is making me older). Stuff like "everyone dies" and "you will not feel it" does not help one bit, because "not feeling it" is the worst I can imagine, I would prefer some sort of hell in fact because there I would at least "be" (I am convinced there is no hell ). Equally bad is the anxiety of dying before actual physical death by getting Alzheimers or bad vascular dementia or similar. I feel trapped in this body cursed with decay and demise.

Neither death nor brain sickness is avoidable or treatable at the current moment.

Does anyone else here have this problem? What did you do? Any medication you can recommend? I`ve been on SSRI`s, but had to stop due to serotonine syndrome. They tried SNRIs to, but it`s like swallowing candy, no effect whatsoever. Neuroleptica I will not take, too dangerous in the long run imo. Benzodiazepines work very nicely, but they are highly addictive so this is out of the question as well.

[platypus]

Are you afraid of dreamless sleep? Some people think such a state is close to ideal..

[chrwe]

Well, people who do think this ideal do not have death anxiety which is a recognized psychological disorder I am seeking advice for

and yes, I would be afraid of dreamless sleep if I did not have the option of waking up - ever

[platypus]

Well, people who do think this ideal do not have death anxiety which is a recognized psychological disorder I am seeking advice for

and yes, I would be afraid of dreamless sleep if I did not have the option of waking up - ever

I guess you're already seeing a psychiatrist about it? Have you considered meditation?

[Luna]

The refusal of accepting death shouldn't be medicated, death should be medicated! :/

I know what you are going through. Best is to hang on, hope for the best and do the best to increase your chances. Hope just not to die anyways :/ Having someone really close to you seems to help

[VictorBjoerk]

Death anxiety is a healthy feeling and something that should not be suppressed. The thing is that something constructive must be made out of it in other to not just bother the brain. Obviously there is no way to "deal with death" other than postponing indefinitely through technology. It's just like how to cope with a problem, you can't really cope with a problem without solving it.

Joining this forum is a step on the right way.

And stop those SSRI's, they are really bad stuff!

[Mind]

Victor gives good advice. Put some effort into solving the "problem" (death), and it will probably make you feel better. Help with initiatives here at Imminst. Help sick people get better or at least give them some comfort. Do something positive and usually you will feel much better.

[lunarsolarpower]

Have you signed up for cryopreservation? If not have you taken any steps towards doing so? Having that bracelet as a tangeable reminder that you have taken one of the best currently available steps to avoid oblivion may go a long ways in helping you to function more normally.

[khakiman]

since i dont believe your consciousness dies at death it makes it much easier. I'm not 100% sure but 75% or so that the brain is not necessary for the personal identification called consciousness. If I had to guess I would say that Earth reality is rather dull and boring compared to what is beyond. It's just a little game called "time" that we play for fun. Since I'm not near death at the moment it wouldnt make much sense to worry about it anyway or else I'd be freaking out about every possible freak accident.

[shadowhawk]

Hi folks,

I`ve been suffering from bad or very bad phases of death anxiety since I was a child. I just cannot accept that my consciousness will end one day, forever, and that`s that. It`s driving me nuts and keeping me from enjoying my life (37 years old now, but this is making me older). Stuff like "everyone dies" and "you will not feel it" does not help one bit, because "not feeling it" is the worst I can imagine, I would prefer some sort of hell in fact because there I would at least "be" (I am convinced there is no hell ). Equally bad is the anxiety of dying before actual physical death by getting Alzheimers or bad vascular dementia or similar. I feel trapped in this body cursed with decay and demise.

Neither death nor brain sickness is avoidable or treatable at the current moment.

Does anyone else here have this problem? What did you do? Any medication you can recommend? I`ve been on SSRI`s, but had to stop due to serotonine syndrome. They tried SNRIs to, but it`s like swallowing candy, no effect whatsoever. Neuroleptica I will not take, too dangerous in the long run imo. Benzodiazepines work very nicely, but they are highly addictive so this is out of the question as well.

I feel for you. It is a question we all have to deal with because we live in a temporal universe and appear to undergo all the same conditions and laws of nature. We can do some things to extend life but never totally escape the end. I am no different than you.

Here are some of my approaches. Live for something which will give your life meaning. For me, I am a person of faith and that gives me a lot of meaning. Some people find a movement and live for it. Some here hope and live for, living forever through technology. It is a faith experience because at the present time, as you say, death is not avoidable.

What is death? The lights go out forever the minute your brain stops working? My own father died in the hospital and I was there. I could see the doctors working on him through a crack in the door that went into the ICU. They worked on him several hours when all of a sudden the monitors set off alarms and I could see they all went flatline. A few minutes later the main doctor came out and told me my Father was dead and he had just filled out the papers giving the exact time Dad died. We went into a side room and the doctors told a crying family all they went through the previous about six hours, while they fought for his life.

The head nurse then told us her story and the Hospital Chaplain came in and prayed with us. The Doctor then sent the head nurse back in to prepare Dads body. We were told we could spend some time with the body. The nurse left. All together about 30 minutes had past.

In a few minutes the nurse came running in saying, “We have a pulse!” The Doctor almost fell on the floor. They all ran back in and worked on Dad for another hour. The Doctor then came out and told me my dad’s heart was beating but he gave it a 99% chance that he would not live until the morning. He also said if my dad ever came to consciousness he would have severe brain damage because his heart beats were at 20 a minute and he had no heart beats for at least 30 minutes.

I went into my Dad’s room and as I held his hand I said, “Dad.” His eyes opened and were as clear as a bell. I told him if he knew it was me, to squeeze my hand. He couldn’t talk because of the tubes in his mouth and nose. I spent the next few minutes telling him how much I loved hem and how thankful I was he was my father.

I wish I had the time to tell you about the next few weeks. He never lost consciousness, even though everything was flatline. He had a near death experience of meeting Christ in the form of a figure of light. We talked a great deal about our nature, being spirit and body. What died? Not his spirit and consciousness. I suggest you might spend some time reading a few books on Death and Dying. This is a first hand account.

You have both a spirit and body. Your body is of the nature of this world and your spirit is of a different nature. Both exist together when you are alive but neither ever ceases to exist, though the body dies. For something intellectual, I recommend: “Beyond Death: Exploring the Evidence for Immortality.”

http://www.amazon.co...i...318&sr=1-17

It begins with some foundational work on what exactly it means for something to be rational. Works through some traditional arguments for immortality and assesses them. Also covers the claims of Jesus and, significantly, it responds to the claims of atheist Michael Martin. Also discusses Near Death Experiences, heaven, and hell.

Bless you.

[chrwe]

Thank you all very much for your answers.

Shadowhawk and Khakiman, I have never had a first-hand experience with death (or, rather, seen death firsthand because if I had true first-hand experience, I wouldnt be sitting here obviously) but I had first-hand experiences with unconsciousness and general anaesthesia and all that proved to me that my light can go entirely "out" - I don`t see how death could be any different. Especially in the light of what brain damage can do to your consciousness. But I guess it is possible that once we are free of the "brain" interface, all damage is healed and we are "we" again - but that, my friends, is something I can only wildly hope, but not believe - in fact, everything I know to be true of the human mind and brain is pointing very strongly against a survival of consciousness after death. So belief cannot be a comfort to me, alas.

I`m trying to work for my longlivety as far as is possible to fit into my normal life and I am a member of Imminst now and of SENS. Also, I have taken the steps to sign up with cryopreservation. But those two also are just a vague hope at the moment, since the technology to keep alive is definitely not in place yet. I`ve talked to several leading bio-scientists and they are rather daunting in their hope that any technology to keep us alive will arrive in our lifetime (for me, that would have to be in the next 40 years).

I`Ve seen a psychiatrist, but they arent much help. I`m taking a sleeping drug called Agomelantine. I`m not happy with it, since it`S not good for the liver, on the other hand it`s not good for brain and body not to be able to sleep due to anxiety and I have trouble even sleeping through the night with a drug.

Thank you all again - I can see there is no real solution for the problem.

[niner]

chrwe, I don't think anyone mentioned just plain old counseling from a psychologist. At this point, hell exists; you're living it. You need to be free of this and enjoy your life. Try some talking with a psychologist. I don't think that drugs are going to work for this kind of thing. I guess anxiolytics like benzodiazepines would do a good job of masking the symptoms, but you already know the problem with those. Get religion, get counselling, get Alcor on the phone, or some combination of the three. Good luck.

[chrwe]

Will get psychological counselling, and I hope it helps.

"Get religion"?

My "religion" is that my work as a lawyer specialized in medicine law has taught me the frailty and extreme beauty of each living being. To me, each human is a wonder and a marvel and a precious, frail thing.

My religion is also that "God" is the beauty of fractals, of Fibonacci`s numbers, of e=mc2, of the immense and astonishing complexity of the human brain, of the immense and astonishing complexity of life itself and the universe, the mystery of quantum physics and the unexplored vast realm of space, deep-sea and human consciousness

My religion is also that our hope lies in ourselves, my friends, that we must create our paradise. The human is capable of terrible deeds and appalling complacency. But if you think of the vision of a Mahatma Gandhi, of the bravery of a Bonhoeffer or Kolbe, of the goodwill of a Mother Theresa, of the great minds like da Vinci or Einstein, of the architects of the pyramids, of the compositions of mozart, there is definitely hope that we will make it - one day. I just hope it will be in time for all of us that are reading (and writing) this.

There may be beings that are higher evolved than we are and some of them might even be what we would think of as gods or angels - but I have never met one and I am a true agnostic about this. There may be a soul or a consciousness within us that transcends the body - I am also agnostic about this and would prefer to stay alive and not find out. Meanwhile, we have to live with what WE HUMANS can do.

Edited by chrwe, 30 April 2010 - 07:35 AM.

[chris w]

Are you afraid of dreamless sleep? Some people think such a state is close to ideal..

Yeah, I do love it, but only because there is an alternative.

More than the "death is natural" I hate the "everybody dies" line. People say that like it was anyhow soothing, that not only you but also everybody else whom you might ever love, is destined to just dissapear one day, and for what ? Nothing, absolutely nothing, there is no higher goal to that, no masterplan that death would be essential to, there's no use for death at all. Sometimes I just want to hit that person, but then I realise that I cannot blame them for rationalizing because that's probably the only thing keeping them sane in the face of death.

I know that's not much help chrwe, but I know how you feel. Just don't loose hope, organ replacement should be here in no more than 40 years, and that will be a game changer in my opinion. But I'm so fucking scared anyway, just like you.

Edited by chris w, 30 April 2010 - 03:22 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Will get psychological counselling, and I hope it helps.

"Get religion"?

My "religion" is that my work as a lawyer specialized in medicine law has taught me the frailty and extreme beauty of each living being. To me, each human is a wonder and a marvel and a precious, frail thing.

My religion is also that "God" is the beauty of fractals, of Fibonacci`s numbers, of e=mc2, of the immense and astonishing complexity of the human brain, of the immense and astonishing complexity of life itself and the universe, the mystery of quantum physics and the unexplored vast realm of space, deep-sea and human consciousness

My religion is also that our hope lies in ourselves, my friends, that we must create our paradise. The human is capable of terrible deeds and appalling complacency. But if you think of the vision of a Mahatma Gandhi, of the bravery of a Bonhoeffer or Kolbe, of the goodwill of a Mother Theresa, of the great minds like da Vinci or Einstein, of the architects of the pyramids, of the compositions of mozart, there is definitely hope that we will make it - one day. I just hope it will be in time for all of us that are reading (and writing) this.

There may be beings that are higher evolved than we are and some of them might even be what we would think of as gods or angels - but I have never met one and I am a true agnostic about this. There may be a soul or a consciousness within us that transcends the body - I am also agnostic about this and would prefer to stay alive and not find out. Meanwhile, we have to live with what WE HUMANS can do.

It sounds like you have been seriously thinking about this. I admire you for this. It comes down to three positions. There is life after death the theist position, you can live forever through technology and finally the lights out view. There are other views in the book I recommended in my last post. None of these views can be proven and all must be accepted by faith. Time separates us by death from knowing whether lights go out or there is life after death. Technology may destroy us given time and it is a huge hope to expect it to be the cause and overcome basic natural laws of the cosmos. There is a high chance that technology will kill us all.

The simple truth is what ever view or solution you take it will be by faith. Science is a process of trying to find the truth, not a position. The views of Scientists are almost always true only so long as the next truth awaits being discovered. A hundred years from now, we all will be laughed at for our views. Even being agnostic is a faith position. You know, you can’t know? Everyone argues for their position but the fact is, it’s faith, See the following debate between, “believers.” An atheist and a Christian on whether there is a God..

http://www.opposingv...-dinesh-d-souza

Once you settle in to your “faith” position perhaps that will help you find some meaning in life. I wish you the best and many years.

[platypus]

Even with radical life extension we're all still going to die, even if it happens centuries from now. People should try to accept this reality and consider whether they'd rather prefer never having been born at all.

Edited by platypus, 01 May 2010 - 12:39 AM.

[niner]

A hundred years from now, we all will be laughed at for our views.

Newton didn't know about relativity, but I don't think anyone is laughing at him today. I a hundred years, people will probably shake their heads and wonder how we could cope with our primitive medical skills, but I doubt they'll be laughing at us for our scientific understanding. They'll just say "it was what it was", and "if they only knew..."

[niner]

"Get religion"?

It works for some people... That's why I threw it in as an option. Personally, I'm an atheist.

[RighteousReason]

"The difficulty, my friends, is not in avoiding death, but in avoiding unrighteousness; for that runs faster than death."

– Socrates

[Luna]

Are you afraid of dreamless sleep? Some people think such a state is close to ideal..

Yeah, I do love it, but only because there is an alternative.

More than the "death is natural" I hate the "everybody dies" line. People say that like it was anyhow soothing, that not only you but also everybody else whom you might ever love, is destined to just dissapear one day, and for what ? Nothing, absolutely nothing, there is no higher goal to that, no masterplan that death would be essential to, there's no use for death at all. Sometimes I just want to hit that person, but then I realise that I cannot blame them for rationalizing because that's probably the only thing keeping them sane in the face of death.

I know that's not much help chrwe, but I know how you feel. Just don't loose hope, organ replacement should be here in no more than 40 years, and that will be a game changer in my opinion. But I'm so fucking scared anyway, just like you.

I think it does sooth people (NOT ME!). I mean, it equalizes people. You know how people feel better when same bad thing happens to others? it's human nature in a way. It's stupid and it's gross.

I hope organs will be here in 20 years (even 15 years), not have to wait all the way 40 years.

[Luna]

A hundred years from now, we all will be laughed at for our views.

Newton didn't know about relativity, but I don't think anyone is laughing at him today. I a hundred years, people will probably shake their heads and wonder how we could cope with our primitive medical skills, but I doubt they'll be laughing at us for our scientific understanding. They'll just say "it was what it was", and "if they only knew..."

Let's hope we'll be the ones laughing at ourselves and saying "if only we knew it sooner"!, rather than have other people pity for us.

Rather be there and not die in the way

Edited by Luna, 01 May 2010 - 04:57 AM.

[Kolos]

"The difficulty, my friends, is not in avoiding death, but in avoiding unrighteousness; for that runs faster than death."

– Socrates

another classic:
"Accustom yourself to believe that death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply awareness, and death is the privation of all awareness; therefore a right understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not by adding to life an unlimited time, but by taking away the yearning after immortality. For life has no terror; for those who thoroughly apprehend that there are no terrors for them in ceasing to live. Foolish, therefore, is the person who says that he fears death, not because it will pain when it comes, but because it pains in the prospect. Whatever causes no annoyance when it is present, causes only a groundless pain in the expectation. Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. It is nothing, then, either to the living or to the dead, for with the living it is not and the dead exist no longer. But in the world, at one time people shun death as the greatest of all evils, and at another time choose it as a respite from the evils in life. The wise person does not deprecate life nor does he fear the cessation of life. The thought of life is no offense to him, nor is the cessation of life regarded as an evil. And even as people choose of food not merely and simply the larger portion, but the more pleasant, so the wise seek to enjoy the time which is most pleasant and not merely that which is longest. "
- Epicurus

He had some point although he couldn't really hope to live forever.

Edited by Kolos, 01 May 2010 - 04:44 PM.

[chrwe]

Thank you all.

It seems we can all only hang on kicking and screaming and hope like hell science catches up in time for us because to me, at least, it seems there is no solution to the problem philosophically (at least not for me). I thought maybe some of you had "the wonder drug or diet" to relieve this .

I`ve read a LOT of philosophy, including Epicurus, Socrates and many religious teachings from what the old egyptians believed across the ages to people like Ken Wilber and Eckard Tolle. This is why I am agnostic rather than all-out atheist, because I see how much science has changed across the ages - and what science knew "100%" lol - and that I want to allow room for the unknown. But see above about what I know about the brain and it`s connection to what we are.

Probably most atheists and agnostics would like to be wrong about there being no afterlife - at least I know I would be bloody happy if I were dead but weren`t, somehow - but since I cannot believe it that particular hope is no consolation.

The "death is the great equalizer" line does not help me either, in fact it makes it worse like for chris w - have I had my beautiful children only so they can vanish into dust again? Do I have to leave everyone and everything I love, forever? Is there simply NO meaning to life? I fear it is so and it`s terrible, how people can see that as a consolation is an absolute mystery to me.

The buddhist, taoist and zen way (simply to see oneself as a vanishing part of the universe and cutting off every feeling about life, thus not caring or saying that everything is one and the same anyway) makes no sense to me even in this life, lol, why live at all if you see life in this way?

And yes, sometimes I think not being born at all is better than losing this great thing called life. As long as there is life, there is hope.

Oh, and the argument "you didnt mind before birth" doesnt help either, no I didnt mind because I did not have awareness, but from my point of view now it was a terrible time because I wasnt there - I mean for me, personally, i don`t think I`m any more important for the world than the next woman.

If I had my way, no one would have to die unless they want it and I grieve for each and every one that had to die against their will and will have to in the future.

Edited by chrwe, 02 May 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[ajnast4r]

if your constant anxiety over dying is preventing you from enjoying life you need to address the issue with a therapist. CBT would do wonders for you im sure.

imo, the best way to minimize the fear of death is to develop a healthy relationship with the concept of impermanence. all things end. toy with the idea that consciousness does not end after the body dies

Edited by ajnast4r, 04 May 2010 - 01:35 AM.

[RighteousReason]

all things end. toy with the idea that consciousness does not end after the body dies

ugh. Fuck that dude. Commit yourself and bust your ass and demand that you find a way to overcome















DO NOT GO QUIETLY INTO THE NIGHT

DO NOT GO OUT WITHOUT A FIGHT!!!

Edited by RighteousReason, 04 May 2010 - 01:51 AM.

[rwac]

ugh. Fuck that dude. Commit yourself and bust your ass and demand that you find a way to overcome

These are my favourite words on this subject.


"Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -Dylan Thomas

[niner]

The buddhist, taoist and zen way (simply to see oneself as a vanishing part of the universe and cutting off every feeling about life, thus not caring or saying that everything is one and the same anyway) makes no sense to me even in this life, lol, why live at all if you see life in this way?

I'm not sure that's the whole picture. I think it's possible to let go of attachment without letting go of enjoyment or love. Too much attachment is crippling. Although I'm an atheist, I can't rule out the existence of "an afterlife". It might however require a level of spiritual development that most do not attain.

[ajnast4r]

ugh. Fuck that dude. Commit yourself and bust your ass and demand that you find a way to overcome

this is a universal truth my friend... i'm all for long lifespans and i think that within the next 20-30 years we'll see profound increases in lifespan... but your atoms will decay and even if you figure out how to stop that the universe will end in ~28 billion years. all things ends... period. you can equip yourself mentally to die in a state of peace or you can die in a state of terror...

Edited by ajnast4r, 04 May 2010 - 03:18 AM.

[bacopa]

In short I have probably the same level death anxiety as you if not compounded by a factor of 30! (Throwing arbitrary numbers because I just feel like it.)

But this is what's basically driving all of us life extensionists!

The only thing that helps me is what Luna said, hope for the best, don't engage in risky behaviors, (well she didn't say these things.)

And if you supplement be careful of the potential contraindications. I'm now beginning to worry a bit about that.

I hate f ing people who say it'll be like when you were before you were born!

Those people are stupid deathists, who rationalize the amazing opportunity that each human has whilst being alive, albeit for such a short time as of now. As Aubrey said, to paraphrase, I'm surprised no one has tried to cure aging before?

I often blame history for wars, the middle ages = repression or complete elimination of all science, I blame human selfishness and greed for putting the dollar before health, and in short humans are very short sighted, and then there's religion.

Another obvious way to look at it, is we didn't have the exponential growth in industry and technology like we've had in the last however many years. For most of history we've been in the dark ages, and there's nothing we can do to change what's already been done to potentially screw over people who really value life and most of us are smart enough to realize death probably = oblivion, and I say that with an optimist twinge.

[Kolos]

I often blame history for wars, the middle ages = repression or complete elimination of all science

[OT] but you blame the wrong things, without wars development would be much slower slaves and/or peasants were cheap workforce and there wasn't much need for machines, war (especially siege) was one of the biggest exceptions. Without some economical and political changes that started in the middle ages there might be no industrial revolution, not to mention today scientists are more cautious in their opinions about this very long and diverse period. To suggest that there was no scientific progress in this times means you know absolutely nothing about it. It's not my favorite period and some Catholic historians go too far in glorifying it but it certainly wasn't that dark as some Renaissance thinkers made us to believe.[/OT]