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Choline-CDP vs Alpha-GPC


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#1 scottl

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Posted 02 September 2004 - 11:36 PM


I've been wanting to get the group's opinion on this:

http://tinyurl.com/6nw25

-David Tolson Posted: Jul 4 2003, 12:48 PM

"Ergoman, I'm starting to think that comparing A-GPC and citicoline is apples and oranges. Given a specific condition (like Alzheimer's) A-GPC is more beneficial but I would guess that citicoline would be more effective at enhancing phospholipid synthesis while A-GPC is superior in the acetylcholine department."

Ergoman (who is also very sharp) replied:

"Ideally, the most benefits of these 2 would be combined use of lesser amounts of both. This would benefit the brain optimally and with less expensive money-wize. Acetylcholine's benefits/actions rely upon adequate and optimal phospholipid metabolism..."

What does everyone think of these statments?

#2

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 03:47 AM

This is an interesting discussion and something pertinent to me since I claim that Alpha GPC is the superior choline supplement. I think it has been demonstrated that it indeed is superior in increasing acetylcholine levels in the brain. However you bring up the point that "Acetylcholine's benefits/actions" are reliant upon "optimal phospholipid metabolism". Supposing that CDP-Choline offers this "optimal phospholipid metabolism" and given the safety of the low dose Alpha GPC often recommended I don't see a problem in adjusting a nootropic stack accordingly.

Perhaps this is more suitable:
Alpha GPC - 500mg/daily
CDP-Choline - 250mg/daily

Whether or not this is necessary, no harm will come of adjusting a nootropic stack to this specification.

The argument about whether it is best to take both choline supplements together or Alpha GPC on it's own has been discussed before. It's akin to the discussion about -racetams, where one can either take the optimal dose of one -racetam or a reduced dose of two -racetams (generally relating to 2 water soluble -racetams, or 2 fat soluble -racetams) and supposedly reap the benefits of both without going over the "adjusted" dosage bell curve given there are two drugs in play.

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#3 scottl

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 04:34 AM

Cosmos,

The topic of taking more than one -racetams is another interesting one. I believe that you and Zen and nootropi all do (take >1 -racetam). However people's reactions on this thread were not all postive (some of the adverse reactions to the mixture as described on this and another thread seemed to be related to taking too much, not sure if I can ascribe all of it to that though):

http://tinyurl.com/3rwhl

Dopamine
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 11:42 AM

"...I have never derived any benefit from combining two (or more) racetams at once in any dose. In fact, it generally tends to decrease my thought flexibility (this is most notable for me when combining Piracetam and Aniracetam, similar to your experience)..."

jcc80
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 05:19 PM

" I tried adding aniracetam to the mix last week. Previously I had been taking 2.4g piracetam, 2g alcar, 10mg vinpo, 50mcg huperzine, 500mg alpha GPC before work in the morning.

I added approximately (I capped them myself) 500mg aniracetam to that before work. I found myself feeling the same way as you. A bit spaced out, and I would forget things immediately after hearing them. I dropped the pir for now, but continued 500mg ani twice a day. Much better."

lancelot
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 08:58 PM

"...i had been on piracetam for 4-5months @3g/day before i added 500mg of aniracetam. the aniracetam made me feel "cloudy" and i just couldn't concentrate. It just spaced me out. is that what ADHD feels like? so after a week of feeling mentally shitty, i dropped aniracetam and i'm back to normal."

#4

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Posted 03 September 2004 - 05:19 AM

Scott I've read all those posts before. I'm aware of some adverse effects relating to lack of focus when combining -racetams.

This is where subjective and anecdotal analysis of one's response to multiple nootropics is key. Some people are able to find a correct dosage of both -racetams so that they reap the optimum results without these adverse side effects. Multiple (2 or more) -racetam use simultaneously is quite understudied and while it's potential risk to the user remains low, it's overall benefit can and has been put into question.

So that is why I think it should be left to the user to decide what combination that works best for them. Like a doctor supervised administration of drugs, he/she will use the subjective response from the patient (in part) to decide whether to continue with the treatment or not. Here we lack a doctor supervised environment for such administration, but since nootropics are among the safest of pyschoactive drugs, we can forgo such supervision (in most cases) and take it upon ourselves to adjust our dosage or add/remove -racetams at our discretion. I'm not suggesting wrecklessly doing so without researching what you are ingesting thoroughly, and discussing it with fellow users. In cases where you are already being prescribed medication for a pre-existing condition, it is best to discuss your nootropic stack with your doctor. I say this grudgingly because they are generally wholely dismissive of the idea of using nootropics and will deter from such exploration regardless of safety.

#5 D Sade

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 02:48 PM

Just a quick bump. Bulk Nutrition.com is carrying Alpha-GPC now, 50 grams for $15 and 150 grams for $42.

Working on Idebenone and Sulbutiamine, as well as some of the other racetams.

#6 nootropi

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 03:31 PM

Just a quick bump. Bulk Nutrition.com is carrying Alpha-GPC now, 50 grams for $15 and 150 grams for $42.

Working on Idebenone and Sulbutiamine, as well as some of the other racetams.


How unoriginal, yet characteristic of bulk nutrition dot com. It seems bulk nutrition is not capable of "original thinking." They always have to do whatever smi2le does. Great, another copycat. I bet you anything bulk nutrition dot com will soon carry every item that smi2le does; then watch some time pass, and Rizzer brings something else new to the nootropic market, popularizes it, and, hey! Let me guess, bulk nutrition will come over here and announce that, "hey! We are selling it now too!" "But it from us!"

There are two sides to the coin:

1. Good: this could potentially bring us better prices on the products we buy. Reason: Competition.

2. Bad: the quality will degrade. For those of you unaware of the mechanics of the supplement market, let me inform you that bulk powders from China may have contaminants. Also the Chinese powder dealers often present the prospective buyer with several multi kilogram bins: some with 97% purity, 98% purity, some with 99% purity; etc. When there is a lot of market competition the seller, in order to achieve a price edge, will select the cheapest, rather than the purest product. Clearly bulk nutrition is financially motivated; we see over and over again that they only see potential profits rather than customers in this market.

Smi2le has been bringing new products to this market and droppping the prices on them to never before seen levels, and bulk nutrition sits on the sidelines, watches smi2le's moves, and copies them. I am not impressed with their business practices at all.

Also bulk nutrition does not allow any customer to send in a sample of their product to an independent labratory to have it assayed. When I asked them if I could send in a sample of a product that I found to be questionable, they told me that they were "too big" of a company and that could present them with a risk. To me, that is just a big excuse. And considering that the powder I purchased from bulk nutrition dot com was of Chinese origin and had never been subjected to an HPLC assay, there could be contaminants and purity concerns.

Read this (click here) my view of importance of purity in the supplement market


I am not going to keep ingesting this product, and am not about to throw away $165 (the cost of an HPLC assay) to find out its contaminated and lose both $165 plus the cost of the powder I purchased from them. So I just decided not to ever purchase powders from them ever again. Why? I have mentioned this before, but will say it again for emphasis. Smi2le.biz allows ANY customer to subject his powders to an HPLC assay for store credit. I have taken advantage of this offer twice already, and plan to do so again. Clearly there is an advantage buying powders from smi2le.biz: he allows us customers to test the quality of his product in exchange for credit at his store. He trusts us and knows what it is like getting some strange powder in the mail and wondering if it is safe to ingest. Also, smi2le is not a copycat business, he is a supplement innovator who works to bring us the rarest, most difficult to find powders at never before seen prices. I suggest those of you interested in the long term status of this business to first compare prices at both bulk nutrition dot com and smi2e.biz; then consider the history of this business; and know that, if history is to repeat itself (as it often does), we will see bulk nutriton continually adding items that Rizzer does, people will ingest powders and some will be contaminated, as we have seen from the HPLC assays that AOR recieved on pyrodoxamine:
Posted Image

So: it is your call. All I wanted to do is make sure everybody is aware. Let us now freely discuss this issue. If people like Rizzer go out of business, we might lose our best ally in life extension/nootropic items.

Take care,

Nootropi

;)


#7

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 10:42 PM

Just a quick bump. Bulk Nutrition.com is carrying Alpha-GPC now, 50 grams for $15 and 150 grams for $42.

Working on Idebenone and Sulbutiamine, as well as some of the other racetams.


According to your site it says that your Alpha GPC is 50% Extract. Does that mean that only 50% of it is actually Alpha GPC?

#8 nootropi

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 04:31 AM


Just a quick bump. Bulk Nutrition.com is carrying Alpha-GPC now, 50 grams for $15 and 150 grams for $42.

Working on Idebenone and Sulbutiamine, as well as some of the other racetams.


According to your site it says that your Alpha GPC is 50% Extract. Does that mean that only 50% of it is actually Alpha GPC?


Yes, all alpha gpc is 50% silicone base (to keep it stable).

#9

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 06:07 AM

Yes, all alpha gpc is 50% silicone base (to keep it stable).


Thanks for clearing that up.

#10 peaceofmind

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 06:18 PM

So then how does Centrophenoxine compare to Alpha GPC and CDP Choline? People seem to think A-GPC is the best source so what is the difference between that and Centrophenoxine?

PoM

#11 Mike M

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 07:19 PM

How unoriginal, yet characteristic of bulk nutrition dot com. It seems bulk nutrition is not capable of "original thinking."


It was well documented on the boards that at one time I would offer custom encapsulation. I backed off the deal only because there was a rumor of the model 10/8 machines getting hit hard by the government due to QC issues dealing with the machine. So does that make Rizzer a copycat? I've offered many things others have not. Does that make everyone else a copycat? Who cares? The customers are the ones that benefit.

They always have to do whatever smi2le does. Great, another copycat. I bet you anything bulk nutrition dot com will soon carry every item that smi2le does; then watch some time pass, and Rizzer brings something else new to the nootropic market, popularizes it, and, hey! Let me guess, bulk nutrition will come over here and announce that, "hey! We are selling it now too!" "But it from us!"


I guess you forgot I was in business way before him?

2. Bad: the quality will degrade. For those of you unaware of the mechanics of the supplement market


What makes you qualified to speak on the mechanics of a market you only purchase things from? You aren't on the backside of this industry.

When there is a lot of market competition the seller, in order to achieve a price edge, will select the cheapest, rather than the purest product. Clearly bulk nutrition is financially motivated; we see over and over again that they only see potential profits rather than customers in this market.


Using your example, lets think about this. If it were true, which company do you think has the ability to buy the high quality stuff? Who do you think has the larger bankroll and credit with companies? I also have multiple sources of revenue. I wouldn't need the powders to be extremely high margin, since I sell over 3000 sku's on my website.

Smi2le has been bringing new products to this market and droppping the prices on them to never before seen levels, and bulk nutrition sits on the sidelines, watches smi2le's moves, and copies them. I am not impressed with their business practices at all.


This guy was using a cap-em quick machine and selling caps to people. Is this the great quality you speak about with his operation? Every cap we make is done in a REAL plant, not in a garage.

Also bulk nutrition does not allow any customer to send in a sample of their product to an independent labratory to have it assayed. When I asked them if I could send in a sample of a product that I found to be questionable, they told me that they were "too big" of a company and that could present them with a risk. To me, that is just a big excuse. And considering that the powder I purchased from bulk nutrition dot com was of Chinese origin and had never been subjected to an HPLC assay, there could be contaminants and purity concerns.


Yawn, I've addressed this numerous times on AvantLabs.com. Explaining it to you again is fruitless obviously.


smi2le is not a copycat business, he is a supplement innovator who works to bring us the rarest, most difficult to find powders at never before seen prices.


Yeah, selling raw materials on the internet is very novel haha.

I suggest those of you interested in the long term status of this business to first compare prices at both bulk nutrition dot com and smi2e.biz; then consider the history of this business; and know that, if history is to repeat itself (as it often does), we will see bulk nutriton continually adding items that Rizzer does


I'm not sure why this guy likes attacking me. I've been upfront with everyone on everything I do. If he isn't a shill for smile, I'd be surprised.

#12 gokugreene

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 08:08 PM

I don't think he is a shill for Smi2le; Smi2le is a great guy. I think the kid is just delusional, and needs some help..

Edited by gokugreene, 21 September 2004 - 09:31 PM.


#13 Mike M

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 07:04 PM

I agree, I should have reworded my statement.

#14 peaceofmind

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 03:39 PM

So then how does Centrophenoxine compare to Alpha GPC and CDP Choline?  People seem to think A-GPC is the best source so what is the difference between that and Centrophenoxine?

PoM


Anyone have any insight into the diference between Centrophenoxine as compared to Alpha GPC and CDP Choline?

#15 nootropi

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 04:25 PM

It was well documented on the boards that at one time I would offer custom encapsulation.  I backed off the deal only because there was a rumor of the model 10/8 machines getting hit hard by the government due to QC issues dealing with the machine.  So does that make Rizzer a copycat?  I've offered many things others have not.  Does that make everyone else a copycat?  Who cares?  The customers are the ones that benefit.



I guess you forgot I was in business way before him?



What makes you qualified to speak on the mechanics of a market you only purchase things from?  You aren't on the backside of this industry.



Using your example, lets think about this.  If it were true, which company do you think has the ability to buy the high quality stuff?  Who do you think has the larger bankroll and credit with companies?  I also have multiple sources of revenue.  I wouldn't need the powders to be extremely high margin, since I sell over 3000 sku's on my website. 



This guy was using a cap-em quick machine and selling caps to people.  Is this the great quality you speak about with his operation?  Every cap we make is done in a REAL plant, not in a garage. 



Yawn, I've addressed this numerous times on AvantLabs.com.  Explaining it to you again is fruitless obviously.




Yeah, selling raw materials on the internet is very novel haha.



I'm not sure why this guy likes attacking me.  I've been upfront with everyone on everything I do.  If he isn't a shill for smile, I'd be surprised.


While I would rather just competely move on from this topic, I feel as if I do not address Mr. McLandless's questions I would be doing a disservice to this community. I had not seen this post before, so I do apologize for not replying earliler.

I am just going to state my conclusions to the answers to the question Mr. McClandless posed to me.

So what if you were in business before smi2le? Ford was in business before Toyota, and Ford still sells lemons. That is not the real issue that I brought forward; that is competely irrelevant.

You and your website have brought absolutely nothing new to this market. The ONLY nooptropics you had 6 months ago was piracetam and ALCAR (which I must comment on below). How cutting edge? Everybody sells piracetam and ALCAR, and has been for years. Smi2le brought down the prices on these items and you followed him, as I mentioned so creatively.

Let's think of the items that you brought to market (at LOW prices) AFTER smi2le did:

1. Aniracetam
2. L-theanine
3. Alpha GPC
4. L-carnosine

And in this very thread your associate D Sade came forward and announced that your website will soon carry:

5. Idebenone
6. Sulbutiamine

Now that is evidence of your lack of creativity in sourcing. Why don't you go and seek out something we don't have already at rock bottom prices and bring it to this market, as smi2le has for the 6 aforementioned supplements.

It was well documented on the boards that at one time I would offer custom encapsulation.  I backed off the deal only because there was a rumor of the model 10/8 machines getting hit hard by the government due to QC issues dealing with the machine.  So does that make Rizzer a copycat?  I've offered many things others have not.  Does that make everyone else a copycat?  Who cares?  The customers are the ones that benefit.


I cannot believe that you even mention the term QC (quality control). I must quote you here:


It has recently come to our attention that a raw material supplier has sent us
L-Carnitine instead of ALCAR.  While labeled as such, with a lab assay included,
it seems someone made a big mistake.  This includes myself.  I foolishly trusted
this company.  I did not inspect the material personally, which I should have.


What kind of QC is that? You sold YOUR customers a MISLABLED false product. L cartinine is NOT ALCAR, but your supplier assumed (correctly it seems) that you and your employees did not notice.

You admit you "not not inspect the material personally." Impressive quality control, sure!

How many other times has this happened? That is, you sold your customers false products? What kind of business do you run if it has such terrible quality control? YOU DO NOT EVEN INSPECT THE POWDERS YOU SELL?

Let us imagine what would happen if, say, the next time you went to the store to pick up some beef for your family's dinner and the bucher mislabled SPAM as your hamburger meal. So you take it home, feed it to your family, and children, meanwhile thinking to yourself: "This tastes strange...I am not sure what is wrong with the meat...maybe I cooked it incorrectly..." But you would never know, right? But a month later you get an email message that indicated: "You and your family have been eating SPAM. I apologize. Here is a gift certificate to my store." I am sure you would be enthusiastic, right?

You are right, you made a big mistake.

Here we have clear evidence of your website, 1fast400/bulknutrition.com:

1. Having a suppiler whom goes so far as to provide you a FALSE COA; in otherwords selling you a FAKE product, which you in turn sold to others;
2. Having no independent assay performed before selling your product to the general public; thereby endangering them;
2. Having an owner, namely Mike McClandless, who does not even go so far as to glance at the powders his customers ingest.

Although it appears from the rest of your statement that you attempt to correct this error by awarding some compensation to the customers who you sold FALSE products to; that is NO excuse for having NOT take a step forward since that day in quality control. What happened with one product can just as easily happen with another. Furthermore, the suppliers you use might have contaminants that may be carcinogenic or even deadly. That is no excuse for not assaying all of your powders before selling them. Especially since you work so hard to appear as if your business is immensely profitable.

#16 ozone

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 03:26 PM

This is an interesting discussion and something pertinent to me since I claim that Alpha GPC is the superior choline supplement. I think it has been demonstrated that it indeed is superior in increasing acetylcholine levels in the brain. However you bring up the point that "Acetylcholine's benefits/actions" are reliant upon "optimal phospholipid metabolism". Supposing that CDP-Choline offers this "optimal phospholipid metabolism" and given the safety of the low dose Alpha GPC often recommended I don't see a problem in adjusting a nootropic stack accordingly.

Perhaps this is more suitable:
Alpha GPC - 500mg/daily
CDP-Choline - 250mg/daily

Whether or not this is necessary, no harm will come of adjusting a nootropic stack to this specification.

The argument about whether it is best to take both choline supplements together or Alpha GPC on it's own has been discussed before. It's akin to the discussion about -racetams, where one can either take the optimal dose of one -racetam or a reduced dose of two -racetams (generally relating to 2 water soluble -racetams, or 2 fat soluble -racetams) and supposedly reap the benefits of both without going over the "adjusted" dosage bell curve given there are two drugs in play.


Hey cosmos, why did you recommend that dosage? Because, both CDP and GPC are 50%, so shouldn't it be:

Alpha GPC - 500mg/daily
CDP-Choline - 500mg/daily

??

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#17

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 04:25 PM

ozone, I wrote that post quite a few months ago.

Alpha GPC - 500mg/daily
CDP-Choline - 500mg/daily

I don't see a problem with you taking both supplements at these dosages, just don't use an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (e.g. Huperzine A) concurrently (at least initially). You can physically feel the negative side effects of acetylcholine excess at certain dosages, so to some extent you will know your boundaries.




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