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#1 owls

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 12:21 AM


hi, i've been currently taking wal-mart's brand of turmeric every morning on an empty stomach.. i'm curious though, if i'm even getting any real benefit out of this..? i've heard different things about its absorption and i'm really curious as to whether i'm ingesting this capsule every morning needlessly. thanks
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#2 bobman

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 05:48 PM

hi, i've been currently taking wal-mart's brand of turmeric every morning on an empty stomach.. i'm curious though, if i'm even getting any real benefit out of this..? i've heard different things about its absorption and i'm really curious as to whether i'm ingesting this capsule every morning needlessly. thanks


As long as it' actually turmeric and not a curcumin extract, it should absorb ok. My advice would be to mix in some black pepper into the powder, maybe 1:10 or so, because it aids in absorption. The best time to take turmeric though would be in the middle of a meal. Curcumin on the other hand has horrible absorption unless it is one of the more expensive/rip-off versions, under names like "Bio-Curcumin" which usually contain either very small amounts of black pepper or turmeric rhizome oils.
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#3 owls

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:59 PM

thanks for the reply man..
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#4 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 12:09 AM


hi, i've been currently taking wal-mart's brand of turmeric every morning on an empty stomach.. i'm curious though, if i'm even getting any real benefit out of this..? i've heard different things about its absorption and i'm really curious as to whether i'm ingesting this capsule every morning needlessly. thanks


As long as it' actually turmeric and not a curcumin extract, it should absorb ok. My advice would be to mix in some black pepper into the powder, maybe 1:10 or so, because it aids in absorption. The best time to take turmeric though would be in the middle of a meal. Curcumin on the other hand has horrible absorption unless it is one of the more expensive/rip-off versions, under names like "Bio-Curcumin" which usually contain either very small amounts of black pepper or turmeric rhizome oils.


Hmm, I currently take curcumin. Can you link to a source for that?
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#5 pycnogenol

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 03:34 PM

As long as it's actually turmeric and not a curcumin extract, it should absorb ok. Curcumin on the other hand has horrible absorption unless it is one of the more expensive/rip-off versions...


Why, that is news to me. And you know this how?

I take Meriva

*(curcumin phytosome root extract/phosphatidylcholine complex)

Edited by pycnogenol, 08 July 2010 - 03:57 PM.

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#6 chrono

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:28 PM

Do a search here for piperine + curcumin. There's a paper showing it increases bioavailability by like 20x. I will definitely add this in when I start taking curcumin.

Haven't done enough research to substantiate the comparison to turmeric, or comments about rip-off products.
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#7 pycnogenol

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 04:46 PM

Do a search here for piperine + curcumin. There's a paper showing it increases bioavailability by like 20x. I will definitely add this in when I start taking curcumin.



I won't take any products with piperine added since it may affect cytochrome P450.
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#8 chrono

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 05:27 PM

I won't take any products with piperine added since it may affect cytochrome P450.

It seems like curcumin itself is a more potent inhibitor of P450: Curcuminoids inhibit multiple human cytochromes P450 (CYP), UDP-glucuronosyltransferase (UGT), and sulfotransferase (SULT) enzymes, while piperine is a relatively selective CYP3A4 inhibitor.

But your point is a good one; it looks like there are many more advanced delivery systems for curcumin than I was aware of. I'll have to do some more research into the cost/benefit tradeoffs of each before I make any purchase. But it sounds like several of them might make more sense than piperine.
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#9 bobman

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 05:00 AM

Do a search here for piperine + curcumin. There's a paper showing it increases bioavailability by like 20x. I will definitely add this in when I start taking curcumin.

Haven't done enough research to substantiate the comparison to turmeric, or comments about rip-off products.



They're ripoffs because you can by a couple hundred grams of 99% pure curcumin + lb of turmeric, add some pepper and make whatever % curcumin extract that would give you better absorption than either the bio-curcumin or the bioperine curcumin. They're giving you tiny amounts of very cheap ingredients at a disproportionate cost. Although it can be argued that curcumin extracts without these overpriced additions are even larger ripoffs, since you pee out 98% of them.

As far as there being a study about naturally occurring curcumin being better absorbed, I haven't seen a direct absorption comparison between turmeric and pure curcumin (what possible motivation would a company have to do that), but there are comparisons between isolated curcumin, and curcumin with essential oils and with pipirine. But then common sense doesn't need funding.

Getting spoon fed by the latest mainstream active compound buzz will always keep you behind the curve. Exercise that occipital area. P.s there are compounds in turmeric other than curcumin. Example: http://www.sciencedi...77dbd13b53fe809

Edited by bobmann, 11 July 2010 - 05:51 AM.

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#10 chrono

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 09:22 PM

@owls: you may want to check out these threads: Increasing bioavailability of Curcumin at home? and Recommended Curcumin Supplement?. Good discussions about some of the relevant bioavailability issues, as well as the products with better delivery.
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#11 bobman

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 03:57 AM

@owls: you may want to check out these threads: Increasing bioavailability of Curcumin at home? and Recommended Curcumin Supplement?. Good discussions about some of the relevant bioavailability issues, as well as the products with better delivery.


The suggestions there are 1) use turmeric and 2) use pepper and fat.

Read between the lines and stop posting bad advice. The LEF product is a combination of ground turmeric rhizome, and curcumin extract. It is 95% curcumin. The 400mg amount apparently gives you the equivalent of ~ 2500mg of curcumin. Frontier Coop sells a guranteed 5% minimum curcuminoid content ground turmeric for ~ 17 dollars/pound. 1 teaspoon is ~4g, and contains 200mg of curcumin, which will have, at the minimum, an identical absorption profile, giving you ~1.25g of standard extract. If you feel that isn't enough, pure bulk .com sells 95% pure curcumin, so you can make your own mix. It will be many times cheaper.

Edited by bobmann, 12 July 2010 - 04:08 AM.

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#12 chrono

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 07:16 AM

The suggestions there are 1) use turmeric and 2) use pepper and fat.

No, those were just the ones that you happen to agree with, and far from constituting the bulk of discussion. There were other products, delivery systems, and issues posed by research which are highly relevant to the question posed by the OP—to whom I would still suggest that reading those discussions would yield a helpful understanding of the options.

Read between the lines and stop posting bad advice.

Mentioning that there are different options to be considered is not bad advice (or advice of any kind). Suggesting that your selective research, narrow criteria and personal bias yield the only reasonable answer is.
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#13 bobman

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 08:00 AM

The suggestions there are 1) use turmeric and 2) use pepper and fat.

No, those were just the ones that you happen to agree with, and far from constituting the bulk of discussion. There were other products, delivery systems, and issues posed by research which are highly relevant to the question posed by the OP—to whom I would still suggest that reading those discussions would yield a helpful understanding of the options.

Read between the lines and stop posting bad advice.

Mentioning that there are different options to be considered is not bad advice (or advice of any kind). Suggesting that your selective research, narrow criteria and personal bias yield the only reasonable answer is.


Oh lord, chrono, it's always the same thing with you. You make these negative assertions, as if being a contrarian resolves you of the burden of proof.

I read both threads prior to your post. The novel versions are all ripoffs (unless compared to pure curcumin, which is an even bigger scam), with no empirical or logical benefit over the natural delivery system. You love herring. Yes, there are products that you can buy that incorporate minute amounts of black pepper extract, or turmeric rhizome, or oil into the mix, and there's even a lipophilized pharmaceutical-grade version. So what? They don't do anything other than either emulate the natural delivery system, or add pepper, which is what the ayurvedic recommendation is. These companies are inventing the need, and you're advertising. Ok, the lipophilized version is moderately different, but we already know that taking curcumin with even tiny amounts of turmeric rhizome gives fantastic absorption. If it had been discovered that curcumin simply does not absorb in therapeutic quantities without an enteric or lipophilized form, you'd have a point.

It's not that you're just offering options, it's that you're denying the claim that the traditional delivery works, while offering up alternatives which capsulize the traditional delivery system. If you have some evidence that what I'm saying isn't true, post it up.

The super-bioperine is probably the best of the rip-off versions, and may even be worthwhile if you have a need to dose higher than 200-400mg/day, or if you can't stand a spoonful of turmeric/black pepper mix, which would be understandable. However, I wanted owl to know that the highly-marketed curcumin delivery systems don't do anything that cannot be achieved for much, much lower cost, with the added benefit of all the other nutrients & active compounds in turmeric.

Edited by bobmann, 12 July 2010 - 08:01 AM.

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#14 mikeinnaples

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:04 PM

Oh lord, chrono, it's always the same thing with you. You make these negative assertions, as if being a contrarian resolves you of the burden of proof.

I read both threads prior to your post. The novel versions are all ripoffs (unless compared to pure curcumin, which is an even bigger scam), with no empirical or logical benefit over the natural delivery system.


Speaking of being contrarian resolving you of burden of proof.... I have only seen opinions from you.

Links please, thanks!
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#15 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 09:02 PM

We use BCM-95 (BioCurcumin) as well, however we shear the particles down and add MCT to our liquid Licaps® in our low priced product, to make sure absorption of BCM-95 is fully taken advantage of.

Cheers
A

Attached Files


Edited by Anthony_Loera, 12 July 2010 - 09:05 PM.

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#16 chrono

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:26 AM

It's not that you're just offering options, it's that you're denying the claim that the traditional delivery works, while offering up alternatives which capsulize the traditional delivery system. If you have some evidence that what I'm saying isn't true, post it up.

I've never once "denied" that the traditional delivery system works; only mentioned that there are other options which seem to have various advantages. I haven't made assertions of any kind with regard to curcumin, let alone negative ones (posting links to previous discussions is not an argument).

The option you present may be viable, so I feel no need to argue it with you. But I would have to research it more, as you haven't presented any kind of evidence for the opinions you present as fact.

I'm getting really sick of you picking fights with me over things I haven't even said, and making inane arguments to prove that my "position" is absurd. It's unbelievably unreasonable.


@Anthony: Thanks for those references. Do you have access to the two unpublished bioavailability reports? A brief summary of their findings would be great (sorry if this has been posted elsewhere).

Also, I'm wondering if you have any data/speculation regarding the final bioavailability of the BCM-95 after your own changes and delivery system. I'm interested more in taking a well-defined smaller amount than getting the most possible.

Edited by chrono, 13 July 2010 - 12:38 AM.

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#17 niner

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 03:50 AM

we already know that taking curcumin with even tiny amounts of turmeric rhizome gives fantastic absorption.

How do we know this?
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#18 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:28 PM

Hi Chrono, sorry I dont have info on the unpublished studies at this time.
:sad:

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 13 July 2010 - 04:29 PM.

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#19 owls

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:58 PM

Hey guys, I really appreciate the discussion here :)

Okay, so what i've started doing is this... I put a fair amount of black pepper into a shot glass, (maybe 10% volume of the contents of one of the turmeric capsules) add a little water and slam it, and then take my turmeric capsule which contains 450mg turmeric and 50mg 95% curcumin extract. I do this twice a day. Is this good for a start? Or should I be going a different route? Any advice greatly appreciated!
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#20 bobman

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:05 AM

Hey guys, I really appreciate the discussion here :)

Okay, so what i've started doing is this... I put a fair amount of black pepper into a shot glass, (maybe 10% volume of the contents of one of the turmeric capsules) add a little water and slam it, and then take my turmeric capsule which contains 450mg turmeric and 50mg 95% curcumin extract. I do this twice a day. Is this good for a start? Or should I be going a different route? Any advice greatly appreciated!


That sounds pretty good. I would add that having a little food in your stomach would be useful. If you're just using turmeric as a prophylactic, 200 - 400mg/day is probably enough. There is no study result that gives a human dose recommendation for anything beside gross immune suppression for cases like Chron's. I've looked through every curcumin study related to cancer incidence, neurogenesis, and wound healing. 10-15mg/kg is the most effective dose for mice, but it is very difficult to translate this to human dose. This link discusses the issue: http://www.fasebj.or...t/full/22/3/659 . However, there are 3 studies to my knowledge that suggest a correlation between the curcumin found in Indian diet and increased brain density, increased lifetime cognitive performance, and decreased Alzheimer's risk, suggesting that this intake is enough for those effects. That dose ends up being ~200mg of curcumin per day, from roughly 4.5 grams of turmeric.

Edit: fixed broken link.

Edited by niner, 14 July 2010 - 04:28 AM.

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#21 bobman

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:07 AM


Oh lord, chrono, it's always the same thing with you. You make these negative assertions, as if being a contrarian resolves you of the burden of proof.

I read both threads prior to your post. The novel versions are all ripoffs (unless compared to pure curcumin, which is an even bigger scam), with no empirical or logical benefit over the natural delivery system.


Speaking of being contrarian resolving you of burden of proof.... I have only seen opinions from you.

Links please, thanks!


Read LEF's description of super-bioperine as a starter.
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#22 bobman

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:42 AM


It's not that you're just offering options, it's that you're denying the claim that the traditional delivery works, while offering up alternatives which capsulize the traditional delivery system. If you have some evidence that what I'm saying isn't true, post it up.

I've never once "denied" that the traditional delivery system works; only mentioned that there are other options which seem to have various advantages. I haven't made assertions of any kind with regard to curcumin, let alone negative ones (posting links to previous discussions is not an argument).

The option you present may be viable, so I feel no need to argue it with you. But I would have to research it more, as you haven't presented any kind of evidence for the opinions you present as fact.

I'm getting really sick of you picking fights with me over things I haven't even said, and making inane arguments to prove that my "position" is absurd. It's unbelievably unreasonable.


@Anthony: Thanks for those references. Do you have access to the two unpublished bioavailability reports? A brief summary of their findings would be great (sorry if this has been posted elsewhere).

Also, I'm wondering if you have any data/speculation regarding the final bioavailability of the BCM-95 after your own changes and delivery system. I'm interested more in taking a well-defined smaller amount than getting the most possible.


Just like I'm sick of you accrediting my opinion to some flight of imagination.

The information of piperine absorption is widely available. Regarding turmeric absorption, read the thread you posted. LEF's super-bioperine document has this info:http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/oct2007_report_curcumin_01.htm.

Other sources:
Patent of various phopholipid-containing curcumin extraction, discusses in some detail benefit of phopholipids for absorption, no images available however: http://www.faqs.org/...app/20090131373 Fat is widely known to enhance the absorption of curcumin, which is why I recommend it.

Patent stating that 1)(indirecetly)extraction process dissolves turmeric essential oils leading to poor bioavailability and 2)retaining these oils enhances absorption:
http://www.faqs.org/...app/20080226755

"[0039]Curcumin and the volatile oils of curcumin are mixed and blended to get a uniform product. If small percentages (˜5%) of the essential oil of turmeric are added to the curcuminoid, then the bioavailability of curcumin is significantly enhanced. Accordingly, a composition of curcuminoid admixed with a suitable proportion of ar-turmerone (the main component of the turmeric essential oil) is provided. "

Turmeric, unprocessed has a ~5% average essential oil content http://www.chemlin.d...on_in_Sindh.pdf although this is highly variable. This combined with curcumin % variability is why choosing the right rhizome variety is important.

Why am I citing patents? Because it is more difficult to find non-commercial-interest work that tests plasma curcumin concentrations and compares various preparations. The vast majority of work is done by for-profit corporations. The rest just know better than to try suck down 95% pure curcuminoids on an empty stomach.

Since turmeric contains more than 100 compounds, and seems to work in regular dietary use, it is quite possible that some of the other substances are synergistic with curcumin, either enhancing absorption or synergizing effects, Tumerin is one of those: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1731625

So let's do this from now on. Before you make big claims about how unreasonable, or unsupported my position is, post some evidence corroborating your opinion. Everything I post is rooted in or (extrapolated from) the vast amount of literature I've processed. I don't have the time to field every request for thesis level evidence, so I'm shifting that burden to you.
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#23 chrono

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 06:45 AM

So let's do this from now on. Before you make big claims about how unreasonable, or unsupported my position is, post some evidence corroborating your opinion. Everything I post is rooted in or (extrapolated from) the vast amount of literature I've processed. I don't have the time to field every request for thesis level evidence, so I'm shifting that burden to you.

Again, I haven't made any claims here. You're just spinning your wheels. I don't think I've said a thing about your "position." I'm not sure why you posted those references in response to me, rather than the several people asking for evidence; I already knew all of that might be true from my brief look through a few threads, and never implied anything to the contrary. It's not your position that's unreasonable, but your inability to comprehend that I'm not even saying any of the things you're repeatedly responding to.

Asking others to rely on your interpretation of research is rendered problematic by the fact that you seem to perceive all other viewpoints (or at least mine) as diametrically opposed, and antagonistic, to your own. It doesn't bespeak someone who can analyze and prioritize different options in an impartial way. Nor does the fact that getting you to explain the basis of your opinion is like pulling teeth.

Also, note that every reply to me over the past few weeks has had some kind of jab about how absurd and ridiculous my position is (even when I have none, or have posted huge amounts of research), or how I need to "exercise my brain" to see things the right way (i.e. your way). I've been ignoring these and trying to keep things on a factual level.

I don't even know why I'm responding to you any more, as you've demonstrated that you're not able or willing to read what I say. Sorry for all the noise, everyone.

Edited by chrono, 14 July 2010 - 07:29 AM.

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#24 mikeinnaples

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:53 AM



Oh lord, chrono, it's always the same thing with you. You make these negative assertions, as if being a contrarian resolves you of the burden of proof.

I read both threads prior to your post. The novel versions are all ripoffs (unless compared to pure curcumin, which is an even bigger scam), with no empirical or logical benefit over the natural delivery system.


Speaking of being contrarian resolving you of burden of proof.... I have only seen opinions from you.

Links please, thanks!


Read LEF's description of super-bioperine as a starter.




I seriously hope LEF isn't your source for information. Please don't tell me that I need to tell you why.
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#25 owls

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 06:31 PM

Alright guys, so this is where i'm at right now..

bobmann, so what you're saying is is that raw turmeric, unextracted, contains more of the essential oils and would probably be the wisest route to take?

i was thinking about ordering this product: http://paradiseherbs...ducts/turmeric/
the brand seems pretty reputable to me.. it's a strong extract, any thoughts here?

but if raw turmeric contains more of the desired nutrients than an extract, wouldn't making my own turmeric be the way to go? and if so, any tips as to how to go about doing so? would turmeric and curcumin from the grocery store be a good idea, and how would i want to mix them? thanks guys :cool:
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#26 aLurker

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 10:14 PM

I bought a lot of spices at my local grocery store since they were cheap. I'm taking a few grams of turmeric with a dash of other spices now on a daily basis, I include a dash of black pepper since I haven't seen any other easy alternatives mentioned in this thread yet, a little olive oil might also be a good idea though.

Perhaps the other spices I add might increase bio-availibilty too since that makes it more like curry consumed in India. Actually just making dishes with ridiculous amounts of curry might be the best way to replicate the effects seen there. Curry-mixes seem to differ quite a lot from region to region within India though. It might be worth investigating which region has the lowest percentage of Alzheimer's and what mix of curry they use there, just a thought.
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#27 aLurker

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 10:23 PM

Sweet, I found a study which seems to lend some credibility to my insane hoarding of spices in general. I also enjoy pomegranate juice.

Suppression of the nuclear factor-kappaB activation pathway by spice-derived phytochemicals: reasoning for seasoning.

The activation of nuclear transcription factor kappaB has now been linked with a variety of inflammatory diseases, including cancer, atherosclerosis, myocardial infarction, diabetes, allergy, asthma, arthritis, Crohn's disease, multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's disease, osteoporosis, psoriasis, septic shock, and AIDS. Extensive research in the last few years has shown that the pathway that activates this transcription factor can be interrupted by phytochemicals derived from spices such as turmeric (curcumin), red pepper (capsaicin), cloves (eugenol), ginger (gingerol), cumin, anise, and fennel (anethol), basil and rosemary (ursolic acid), garlic (diallyl sulfide, S-allylmercaptocysteine, ajoene), and pomegranate (ellagic acid). For the first time, therefore, research provides "reasoning for seasoning."


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