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Lithium Orotate


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#1 noobie

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:13 AM


Hi,

I have not tried it yet but I read that a lot experience brain fog, if that is the case then why take it?


Thank you.
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#2 Super K

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:31 AM

1. It's neuroprotective.
2. It has a stabilizing effect on mood, some antidepressant effects.
3. It has anti-viral properties.

Oh, and the brain fog tends to go away after a while.
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#3 noobie

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:38 AM

1. It's neuroprotective.
2. It has a stabilizing effect on mood, some antidepressant effects.
3. It has anti-viral properties.

Oh, and the brain fog tends to go away after a while.


So is it something to consider and how long does the brain fog last?
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#4 health_nutty

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:45 AM

It's all very simple:
1) Take lithium orotate for neuroprotection / mood /anxiety reduction
2) Take Piracetam to counteract the brain fog
3) Take ALCAR and alpha-gpc to counteract the irritability from Piracetam

:)
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#5 chrono

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:56 AM

It varies between people. Some don't get brain fog (or any effects), and some get so much they stop taking it. Starting on 5mg/day, I found that brain fog was only a problem for a couple of weeks, and had disappeared completely after about 5 weeks. For me, tiredness and oversleeping was more of a problem than brain fog. Brain fog can also be minimized by scheduling your doses a certain way; see this thread.

And yes, it's something to consider, for the reasons rwac mentioned. ;) No one can say if it will work out for you. But you can get like a year's supply for less than $20, so it's a pretty low-risk supp to try. If you want to review other evidence and experiences before you decide, there have been a lot of threads discussing it in the past 6 months or so. Use the google search feature at the bottom of the page.
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#6 noobie

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 01:03 AM

It's all very simple:
1) Take lithium orotate for neuroprotection / mood /anxiety reduction
2) Take Piracetam to counteract the brain fog
3) Take ALCAR and alpha-gpc to counteract the irritability from Piracetam

:)


I take ALCAR and Alpha GPC plus a bunch of other stuff but I never got anything from the racetams and I have tried Pir / Ani / Oxi / Pram and all they did was make me want to sleep.:sad:
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#7 noobie

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 01:06 AM

It varies between people. Some don't get brain fog (or any effects), and some get so much they stop taking it. Starting on 5mg/day, I found that brain fog was only a problem for a couple of weeks, and had disappeared completely after about 5 weeks. For me, tiredness and oversleeping was more of a problem than brain fog. Brain fog can also be minimized by scheduling your doses a certain way; see this thread.

And yes, it's something to consider, for the reasons rwac mentioned. ;) No one can say if it will work out for you. But you can get like a year's supply for less than $20, so it's a pretty low-risk supp to try. If you want to review other evidence and experiences before you decide, there have been a lot of threads discussing it in the past 6 months or so. Use the google search feature at the bottom of the page.


Does any one know why it causes the brain fog?

I was quite surprised that it does not cost that much and will defiantly read those threads; is there anything that should not be taken with it?
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#8 MoodyBlue

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:23 AM

I think the reason it may cause brain fog for some people at first is because it is also very neuroregenerative. So, if your brain needs some new growth to replace whatever might be lost, it is what seemed to me anyway to be a very rapid regeneration of lost gray matter which was probably a major contributing factor in causing the brain fog. You could start with much less I think so that the regeneration goes more slowly. Break a 4.8mg tablet into 1/4ths for the first 4 weeks, then increase to 1/2 tabs for the next 4 weeks, and then a full tablet if you want. Here's a quote:

Hercule Poirot, Agatha Christie's famous fictional detective, had an amusing quirk in his incessant concern for his "little grey cells." I thought of Hercule several years ago when I saw the following headline in an issue of the Lancet: "Lithium-induced increase in human brain grey matter."

That may not sound like an earth-shattering piece of news, but it actually was quite a major discovery. To that point, medical experts believed that once our brains matured, it was all downhill from then on. Decades of autopsies, x-rays, and, more recently, brain scans have repeatedly shown that brains shrink measurably with aging. But according to their report in the Lancet, Wayne State University (Detroit) researchers found that lithium has the ability to both protect and renew brain cells.1 Eight of 10 individuals who took lithium showed an average 3 percent increase in brain grey matter in just four weeks.

Lithium may help to generate entirely new cells too: Another group of researchers recently reported that lithium also enhances nerve cell DNA replication.2 DNA replication is a first step in the formation of a new cell of any type.

The Wayne State study used high-dose lithium, but I'm certainly not using that amount myself, nor do I recommend it. Prescription quantities of lithium just aren't necessary for "everyday" brain cell protection and re-growth. Studies done years ago have shown that very low amounts of lithium can also measurably influence brain function for the better.

The entire article is here: http://www.tahomacli.../lithium1.shtml.
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#9 chrono

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:58 AM

^^ I would hesitate to think that neurogenesis is the cause of brain fog. First, all the studies showing Li to promote significant neurogenesis are with serum levels equivalent to a good psychiatric dose, which is 10x the amount most people take here (5mg), at the very least. So it's debatable that there's any significant neurogenesis going on at all (though I certainly hope so). Second, I don't think that brain fog is a common symptom of neurogenesis. A few things like lion's mane and ashwagandha give some people fatigue, but not the kind of heavy brain fog that even low dose lithium deals out. And other strong neurogenics like cerebrolysin don't cause brain fog at all.

Pretty much all the low-dose studies show some efficacy in mood treatment. I suspect it's one of these mechanisms which is causing the brain fog. I don't think they're entirely understood yet, but I have a paper somewhere that had a good overview of current understanding. I'll try to dig it up...

PS: Poirot is one of my favorite shows! Apparently there's a few new episodes out this year that I haven't seen yet.
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#10 Super K

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 03:17 AM

It's probably because lithium reduces the sodium gradient by being transported across the cell membrane instead of Sodium. This gradient is used to transport things like glucose into the interior of the cell.

Reduced glucose would certainly cause brain-fog.

Given time, cells will upregulate the pumps to compensate.

Edited by rwac, 22 July 2010 - 03:23 AM.

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#11 rvdvaart

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 03:19 AM

This sounds a little hokey. If you're going to use an OTC antidepressant, I would stick with SAM-e

Edited by rvdvaart, 22 July 2010 - 03:21 AM.

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#12 noobie

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 06:50 PM

I have found a source and the label reads:

Product Specifications: Serving Size: 1 Capsule Amount Per Serving Lithium Orotate (providing 4.8 mg 130mg * elemental lithium) *Daily Value not established Other Ingredients:
Microcrystalline cellulose and hydroxypropylmethylcellulose (vegetarian capsule) and magnesium stearate.

Is this the standard dose for one capsule?

Thank you.
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#13 Logan

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 09:00 PM

This sounds a little hokey. If you're going to use an OTC antidepressant, I would stick with SAM-e


Nothing hokey about it. Do the research

SAM-e can be very effective but it often times does not last and may have to be cycled. Also, SAM-e can agitate some and be overstimulating.

Edited by morganator, 22 July 2010 - 09:01 PM.

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#14 MoodyBlue

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 10:54 PM

I have found a source and the label reads:

Product Specifications: Serving Size: 1 Capsule Amount Per Serving Lithium Orotate (providing 4.8 mg 130mg * elemental lithium) *Daily Value not established Other Ingredients:
Microcrystalline cellulose and hydroxypropylmethylcellulose (vegetarian capsule) and magnesium stearate.

Is this the standard dose for one capsule?

Thank you.


For lithium orotate, yes. 4.8 to 5 mgs of elemental lithium is the only dosages I've noticed with lithium orotate products. You have to keep this in mind: "Lithium is the most common element used for stabilizing mood swings, mania and depression. Lithium orotate (the lithium salt of orotic acid) is 20 times more bio-active than other lithium salts, allowing a reduction in dosage greatly reducing the likelihood and severity of potential side effects." Most of lithium orotate is absorbed into neurons and cells. Therefore, unlike with the prescribed form which is lithium carbonate where most of it is not absorbed and sometimes results in toxic levels of lithium in the blood stream, a small dose is sufficient to do the job. The above quote is from here: http://www.oasisadva...um-orotate.html

To Chrono: The fact that it is 20 times more bioactive than lithium carbonate could very well mean that it is just as neuroregenerative as high amounts of lithium carbonate.
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#15 chrono

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:24 AM

To Chrono: The fact that it is 20 times more bioactive than lithium carbonate could very well mean that it is just as neuroregenerative as high amounts of lithium carbonate.

This claim is based on the work of Dr. Nieper, who's been selling LiOr for a long time (I'm using his product). The web page you linked to suggests that the orotate is 20x more effective because Nieper was able to treat things like hepatitis at lower dosages. AFAIK, he never published any peer-reviewed papers. His 'research' says that LiOr is 20x better at 'good' things like treating depression and curing hepatitis, but that we don't need to worry about the negative side effects because the dosage is so small. I don't think you can have it both ways like this.

It's pretty widely accepted that the psychiatric effects of lithium are closely tied to serum levels. There are only a few real studies done on the pharmacokinetics of LiOr (see here). Injected doses were better at raising brain levels and lasted longer, but there was no difference observed in a study of oral dosing. I'd be willing to believe that there's a slight increase in bioavailability and activity, but I don't think I could support such a belief with any evidence.

I'd want to see some research or data (or at least something other than vague assurances of someone selling it) before I believed something like a 20x increase in efficacy. And if it was shown, it would negate what we've believed for 50 years about serum levels being indicative of activity, and would seriously call into question our assumptions about the safety of these low dosages.


@Noobie: I'd suggest buying a tablet forumlation of LiOr, rather than a capsule. This makes it a lot easier to dose in smaller increments. I think iHerb has two products that are tablets.
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#16 noobie

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 10:26 PM

@Noobie: I'd suggest buying a tablet forumlation of LiOr, rather than a capsule. This makes it a lot easier to dose in smaller increments. I think iHerb has two products that are tablets.


I ordered the caps before I viewed your reply.

I was going to wait until I ordered the tabs but decided to try 1 cap of lithium.

I got up at 9.30am and had breakfast and took 1 cap of L.O and because I was not in work till 3.00pm, I went back to bed till 1.00pm.

I was not expecting anything from the L.O and what i did experience may have been a placebo, but I was drifting in and out of dream state and remembering old things but it was as though my memories were getting shuffled around as though my mind was a computer being de-fragmented and having a good clean out.

Did not notice anything negative as yet.

Edited by noobie, 24 July 2010 - 10:32 PM.

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#17 Logan

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 03:07 AM

It's pretty widely accepted that the psychiatric effects of lithium are closely tied to serum levels.


Psychiatric effects of lithium can be felt at any dose, even when lithium levels are very low.
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#18 chrono

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 03:33 AM


It's pretty widely accepted that the psychiatric effects of lithium are closely tied to serum levels.


Psychiatric effects of lithium can be felt at any dose, even when lithium levels are very low.

True. I certainly feel 5mg pretty strongly, or did for the first month or so. But I don't think psychiatrists use 5mg of lithium as treatment of bipolar or psychosis.

What I was trying to convey was that the magnitude of these effects are largely dose-dependent, and dependent on how much lithium gets into serum, and afterwards into the brain. Low doses of LiOr will still increase serum levels, just not to an extent that is thought capable of inducing toxicity. But an orotate counterion is very unlikely to provide a 20x increase in effect beyond a comparable serum level from another lithium salt.
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#19 Logan

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 04:33 AM



It's pretty widely accepted that the psychiatric effects of lithium are closely tied to serum levels.


Psychiatric effects of lithium can be felt at any dose, even when lithium levels are very low.

True. I certainly feel 5mg pretty strongly, or did for the first month or so. But I don't think psychiatrists use 5mg of lithium as treatment of bipolar or psychosis.

What I was trying to convey was that the magnitude of these effects are largely dose-dependent, and dependent on how much lithium gets into serum, and afterwards into the brain. Low doses of LiOr will still increase serum levels, just not to an extent that is thought capable of inducing toxicity. But an orotate counterion is very unlikely to provide a 20x increase in effect beyond a comparable serum level from another lithium salt.


I agree. I do find it interesting that when I was taking 10 mg of elemental lithium orotate, my serum lithium levels were undetectable in a blood test.
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#20 nito

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 02:24 AM

is lithium fat soluble? I don't feel it with water, perhaps i could try with milk.
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#21 niner

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 03:21 AM

is lithium fat soluble? I don't feel it with water, perhaps i could try with milk.

No, lithium is not fat soluble in most of its compounds, although it might be possible to create a lithium salt of a long chain fatty acid that might allow you to get it into a hydrophobic solvent. But practically speaking, fat isn't going to help with lithium.

If you aren't feeling it, maybe you don't need it. Or maybe you need to take more...
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#22 chrono

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 01:46 PM

I've seen papers suggesting you take lithium with food to avoid possible GI upset. Granted it's with much larger doses, so there may be bioavailability to spare there. Personally, I feel 5mg of lithium with or without food.

Nito, it sounds like you don't respond to anything that you try. I'm sorry about that. As niner said, you may want to try increasing your dose.
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#23 Mishael

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 09:30 PM


Do you think it is affecting your electrolyte balance and/or also your adrenals? Have you read the thread "Piracetam non-responders Responders are welcome too" by John W.

I have been taking Mag. Glycinate. It definitely brightened my mood. I also noticed that it made me feel the physical sensation of my heart beating. Last night after reading through said thread I took 1/4 teaspoon of salt with water and it caused my sensation of my heart beating to stop and gave me a good night sleep. So, I believe magnesium influences electrolytes particularly sodium.


I am beginning to get to the bottom of this. "Taurine Role in Cardiology and Cardiac Arrhythmias" http://george-eby-re...ml/taurine.html and http://george-eby-re...arrhythmias.pdf

Apparently, taurine and arginine are believed to regulate things like Mg, K, Na, Ca. If you have heart arrythmias this will help it significantly and also improve energy. For a healthy heart you need both taurine and arginine.

I think suplementing with Mg. without these may not be sufficient.

The best combo is Mg. glycinate w/ separate taurine and arginine. This is an effective treatment for depression and having a healthy heart according to http://george-eby-re...on-anxiety.html


Lithium is a foolish supplemento to take imo and also the above links oppinion, who is no less than a scientist. It can damage the thyroid and cause hypothyroidism.
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#24 nito

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 01:58 AM

Lithium is a foolish supplemento to take imo and also the above links oppinion, who is no less than a scientist. It can damage the thyroid and cause hypothyroidism.


Well i had good hopes about lithium orotate from doctors best. I've tried many different dosages and today i tried a jumbo 50 mg (10, 5 mg pills) . I pretty much didn't feel anything at all, not even a negative effect, which made me wonder whether im just unlucky or the pills contain something rubbish. I know i am depressed so i was really looking forward to it. So i am wondering whether lithium is meant to work after a log use like anti depressant or are you meant to feel something immediately?

Edited by chrono, 19 August 2010 - 11:56 PM.
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#25 Mishael

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 11:14 PM

Well i had good hopes about lithium orotate from doctors best. I've tried many different dosages and today i tried a jumbo 50 mg (10, 5 mg pills) . I pretty much didn't feel anything at all, not even a negative effect, which made me wonder whether im just unlucky or the pills contain something rubbish. I know i am depressed so i was really looking forward to it. So i am wondering whether lithium is meant to work after a log use like anti depressant or are you meant to feel something immediately?



"On April 12, 2000, I looked like I was dying to several people important in my life. My psychiatrist agreed and took me off all antidepressant medications and put me on a tiny amount of lithium carbonate (150 mg twice a day)."

"Li+ displaces Mg2+ from intracellular binding sites." (See Lithium induced changes in intracellular free magnesium concentration in isolated rat ventricular myocytes.)

"One might consume enough magnesium to fulfill the RDA, but if the magnesium is bound so tightly to a stearate or oleate that it is non soluble and is excreted through the feces without being absorbed into the blood, what good is it? What happens to the heart? Heart attack! I think this is why some in the FDA think the RDA for magnesium should be raised to about 900 mg per day."

"Looking back over the last year, I now realize that the increases in lithium that I was prescribed (a gradual increase from 300 to 1050 mg lithium carbonate per day) was associated with progressive reductions in feelings of well being (sort of a placid zombie-like feeling) and pending damage to thyroid function (excess lithium causes hypothyroidism). On December 5, 2000, I decided that it was imperative for me to stop lithium because I did not want to have to be dependent upon thyroid extract for the rest of my life due to the toxicity of lithium. Even though lithium is a mineral element, it is not found in the human diet except in trace amounts (which are related to even temperament). However, magnesium is a vital to life essential human nutrient. I.E. there is no RDA for lithium (or any drug), but there is for magnesium! Actually, lithium is a drug that is being used to substitute for a nutrient, magnesium! How tricky of those docs! What a way to drum up business!
Surprisingly, I began to feel better, even better than I felt in June when I first started taking low-dose lithium and high-dose magnesium. After several months off of lithium, people say I look ten years younger. I feel much sharper and my mental capabilities have returned to what is normal for me. I hope that I will never again take lithium. I now strongly suspect that the main biochemical function of lithium is to raise magnesium levels in the blood as mentioned above, with the mental benefit coming not from lithium but from lithium induced increased magnesium blood levels. This idea could account for the 40 percent failure rate of lithium in preventing future depressive episodes. That is to say, if dietary magnesium intake is so low that not even lithium can return it to normal levels, then one succumbs to depression or other magnesium deficiency disorders."

Edited by chrono, 19 August 2010 - 11:56 PM.
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#26 Logan

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 02:36 AM

Lithium is a foolish supplemento to take imo and also the above links oppinion, who is no less than a scientist. It can damage the thyroid and cause hypothyroidism.


Do we have another full-circle on our hands, or is this full_circle in the flesh? Have you paid attention to the doses of lithium people are taking here? Do you realize that the person you quoted was taking 1500 mg? Just do a pubmed search and you will find plenty of good information on lithium and it's potential benefits. Stop trolling bro.

Edited by chrono, 19 August 2010 - 11:57 PM.
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#27 Mishael

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 06:15 PM

Do we have another full-circle on our hands, or is this full_circle in the flesh? Have you paid attention to the doses of lithium people are taking here? Do you realize that the person you quoted was taking 1500 mg? Just do a pubmed search and you will find plenty of good information on lithium and it's potential benefits. Stop trolling bro.


He said he started on 150mg twice a day and then went up. He never got any benefit from it. He got better results for himself when he was off of it. This is his testimony not mine. I am not a lithium expert. Testimony is from a scientist sharing his experience. I have never taken lithium and never plan to. I was just sharing his thoughts on the subject as a relevant aside to Mg because Li influences its activity. Take it how you want to. I have benefited tremendously from Mg so I have a lot of respect for this individual. In addition, if you go to his site he is very thorough and sites studies etc. I benefited from his recommendation of Mg glycinate so I like this person quite a lot for making me feel good.

Edited by chrono, 19 August 2010 - 11:58 PM.
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#28 Logan

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:40 AM

He said he started on 150mg twice a day and then went up. He never got any benefit from it. He got better results for himself when he was off of it. This is his testimony not mine. I am not a lithium expert. Testimony is from a scientist sharing his experience. I have never taken lithium and never plan to. I was just sharing his thoughts on the subject as a relevant aside to Mg because Li influences its activity. Take it how you want to. I have benefited tremendously from Mg so I have a lot of respect for this individual. In addition, if you go to his site he is very thorough and sites studies etc. I benefited from his recommendation of Mg glycinate so I like this person quite a lot for making me feel good.


He is only one person. Plus, the dose he ended up at was a very high toxic one. It would behoove to to research lithium some before jumping to conclusions and taking everything one man says as the final word on something. I love magnesium glycinate and I do feel some benefit from using it. I also benefit from lithium, but much more than I do from magnesium. Magnesium is great and essential for health, but it doesn't hold a candle to all of the things that lithium can potentially offer-neuroprotection, neurogenesis, neuroplasticity, antiviral, increase in grey matter(if you have lost some), and the obvious mood enhancing/stabilizing benefits.

That's a nice little theory he has about magnesium and lithium. Did you know that lithium has other mechanisms that are thought to be the reason for it's mood stabilizing and mood boosting effects? Again, I would do some research before you come back here and make a statement about lithium based on common misconceptions and this one dude.

That's great magnesium glycinate works for you. There are many other things that may help you if you keep searching.

Edited by chrono, 19 August 2010 - 11:58 PM.
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#29 Logan

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:53 AM

Well i had good hopes about lithium orotate from doctors best. I've tried many different dosages and today i tried a jumbo 50 mg (10, 5 mg pills) . I pretty much didn't feel anything at all, not even a negative effect, which made me wonder whether im just unlucky or the pills contain something rubbish. I know i am depressed so i was really looking forward to it. So i am wondering whether lithium is meant to work after a log use like anti depressant or are you meant to feel something immediately?


I'm surprised you felt nothing, good or bad. I would take 10 to 20 mg for a good month and see if anything changes. You could also try lithium aspartate instead, it's possible you may get a better response.

What have you tried so far? I'm assuming you are taking fish oil. Have you tried a good brand of st. john's wort?

I find that adaptogens and mushrooms have been having an antidepressant effect lately. It may be that they are simply making me feel good, which always helps me with depression. Shit, if I felt "normal" and didn't have so many musculoskeletal issues, I may be on the hypomanic side, but depression would NOT have any kind of consistent hold on me.

Some things I am currently taking-Maca(I think I'm noticing an increase in energy), Aswhagandha(mainly at night), Planetary Herbals Schisandra Adrenal Complex, Chyavanprash, Jarrow Wellness Optimizer(Just take 1 or 2), Cordyceps(3 to 4 grams-noticeable smooth energy increase and better breathing), New Chapter Holy Basil(love this one-calming and uplifting) and just added Reishi(too early to tell).

Edited by chrono, 19 August 2010 - 11:59 PM.
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#30 Mishael

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:28 AM

Nito, the guy mentioned is a scientist with years of experience I doubt this scorner possesses. Secondly, I do not know what you suffer from, if it is depression or bi-polar. I doubt that depression or bi-polar is caused by a lithium deficiency. I have followed this persons advice who is a doctor to good effect for depression. You are not going to be super-man of course. But for me, it helps me be more productive. This to me is a good measure of a cure, how happy, energetic and productive you become.
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