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Lithium Orotate


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#31 chrono

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:14 AM

He said he started on 150mg twice a day and then went up. He never got any benefit from it. He got better results for himself when he was off of it. This is his testimony not mine. I am not a lithium expert. Testimony is from a scientist sharing his experience. I have never taken lithium and never plan to. I was just sharing his thoughts on the subject as a relevant aside to Mg because Li influences its activity. Take it how you want to. I have benefited tremendously from Mg so I have a lot of respect for this individual. In addition, if you go to his site he is very thorough and sites studies etc. I benefited from his recommendation of Mg glycinate so I like this person quite a lot for making me feel good.


Nito, the guy mentioned is a scientist with years of experience I doubt this scorner possesses.

You must make your own decision about which supplements to take and why, but just because you benefit from magnesium does not lend this scientist any kind of authority. It's one of the two most obvious recommendations for anyone on a modern/western diet. Kind of a no-brainer, really.

Whether it's your main point or not, you're discouraging people from using a supplement, and trying to discredit what other people say about it, based on the fact that you like a guy who has a webpage about another supplement that worked for you. If you want to make these kinds of claims, I'd suggest that you make more of an effort to examine the actual data.

#32 niner

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:55 AM

Nito, the guy mentioned is a scientist with years of experience I doubt this scorner possesses.

This guy Eby has a lot of the hallmarks of a quack. He is ideologically attached to magnesium, and seems to see it as a cure-all. Most of his papers are single author pieces published in Med. Hypotheses, which is kind of shaky. A number of ImmInst members are scientists with years of experience, FWIW.
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#33 Mishael

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:14 PM

Time will tell. I am pretty sure you guys talking lithium will suffer from it, especially if you go to 600mg a day or higher. Keep us posted and please do not lie.

Mg is certainly not a no-brainer. From somebody who is a moderator I expect more brains.
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#34 Logan

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 02:09 AM

Time will tell. I am pretty sure you guys talking lithium will suffer from it, especially if you go to 600mg a day or higher. Keep us posted and please do not lie.

Mg is certainly not a no-brainer. From somebody who is a moderator I expect more brains.


Just do the research and listen to all the people taking very low doses of lithium, don't listen to the opinion of one man that took a ridiculously high dose of lithium. Saying that the people here will suffer from taking extremely low doses of lithium is like saying that they will also suffer from eating food and breathing air. You sound like a very young sheltered person that has not done enough research or had enough experience to make such statements.

Edited by morganator, 21 August 2010 - 02:11 AM.

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#35 bobman

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:58 PM

Time will tell. I am pretty sure you guys talking lithium will suffer from it, especially if you go to 600mg a day or higher. Keep us posted and please do not lie.

Mg is certainly not a no-brainer. From somebody who is a moderator I expect more brains.


Just do the research and listen to all the people taking very low doses of lithium, don't listen to the opinion of one man that took a ridiculously high dose of lithium. Saying that the people here will suffer from taking extremely low doses of lithium is like saying that they will also suffer from eating food and breathing air. You sound like a very young sheltered person that has not done enough research or had enough experience to make such statements.


That's a ridiculous comparison. Lithium can have harmful effects at relatively low doses, even potentially fatal ones, and there is no evidence of any positive effect on cognitive function, beyond out of context quotes about increases in hippocampal and pre-frontal cortex volumes, that are erroneously extrapolated and used as the foundation of an ill-considered low dose regiment. Otherwise, it's just like food and air.

#36 Logan

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:00 AM

Time will tell. I am pretty sure you guys talking lithium will suffer from it, especially if you go to 600mg a day or higher. Keep us posted and please do not lie.

Mg is certainly not a no-brainer. From somebody who is a moderator I expect more brains.


Just do the research and listen to all the people taking very low doses of lithium, don't listen to the opinion of one man that took a ridiculously high dose of lithium. Saying that the people here will suffer from taking extremely low doses of lithium is like saying that they will also suffer from eating food and breathing air. You sound like a very young sheltered person that has not done enough research or had enough experience to make such statements.


That's a ridiculous comparison. Lithium can have harmful effects at relatively low doses, even potentially fatal ones, and there is no evidence of any positive effect on cognitive function, beyond out of context quotes about increases in hippocampal and pre-frontal cortex volumes, that are erroneously extrapolated and used as the foundation of an ill-considered low dose regiment. Otherwise, it's just like food and air.


Maybe that was ridiculous, I was thinking about all the bad air we are breathing nowadays. What do you consider relatively low doses? I'm talking about 1 or 2 lithium orotate capsules with 5 mg elemental lithium each. Now. since Imminst was considering putting 1mg lithium in their multivitamin, do you really consider a 5 or 10 mg dose to be potentially harmful? Really? I was taking 1 lithium orotate capsule with 5 mg elemental lithium and lithium did not even show up in my blood when I was tested for it. The reason why people are taking these very low doses are both for the mood benefits and potential neuroprotection, which there is plenty of evidence for.

#37 chrono

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:07 AM

Lithium can have harmful effects at relatively low doses, even potentially fatal ones, and there is no evidence of any positive effect on cognitive function, beyond out of context quotes about increases in hippocampal and pre-frontal cortex volumes, that are erroneously extrapolated and used as the foundation of an ill-considered low dose regiment.

I know of no evidence suggesting that 5-10mg dosages of lithium are potentially toxic, let alone fatal. Most people take lithium for benefits related to mood and neuroprotection, not cognitive enhancement. It is unknown if it induces neurogenesis at these dosages; but if studies showing an increase in white matter are 'out of context' at this dose, then so are concerns about toxicity.

Edited by chrono, 24 August 2010 - 03:11 AM.

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#38 nito

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:44 AM

Well i had good hopes about lithium orotate from doctors best. I've tried many different dosages and today i tried a jumbo 50 mg (10, 5 mg pills) . I pretty much didn't feel anything at all, not even a negative effect, which made me wonder whether im just unlucky or the pills contain something rubbish. I know i am depressed so i was really looking forward to it. So i am wondering whether lithium is meant to work after a log use like anti depressant or are you meant to feel something immediately?


I'm surprised you felt nothing, good or bad. I would take 10 to 20 mg for a good month and see if anything changes. You could also try lithium aspartate instead, it's possible you may get a better response.

What have you tried so far? I'm assuming you are taking fish oil. Have you tried a good brand of st. john's wort?

I find that adaptogens and mushrooms have been having an antidepressant effect lately. It may be that they are simply making me feel good, which always helps me with depression. Shit, if I felt "normal" and didn't have so many musculoskeletal issues, I may be on the hypomanic side, but depression would NOT have any kind of consistent hold on me.

Some things I am currently taking-Maca(I think I'm noticing an increase in energy), Aswhagandha(mainly at night), Planetary Herbals Schisandra Adrenal Complex, Chyavanprash, Jarrow Wellness Optimizer(Just take 1 or 2), Cordyceps(3 to 4 grams-noticeable smooth energy increase and better breathing), New Chapter Holy Basil(love this one-calming and uplifting) and just added Reishi(too early to tell).


So far i have tried for solving depression mainly plus some generalized anxiety.

Perika
Kira
Rhodiola
Alcar
Lithium orotate
Multi
Magnesium malate
5-htp
Bacopa
L-tyrosine
SAM-e
piracetam
cdp- choline
1 bottle of nature answers fish oil (800 epa, 500 dha)
vinpocetine
gotu kola
vitamin d3 5000iu
Manganese
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root
Jarrow b right

Currently i'm taking
Lithium orotate
Magnesium malate
gotu kola
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root

I'm considering getting
Either perika again or try sc27 which i hear is effective
aniracetam
Holy basil? Theanine serene contains holy basil 5:1 (100mg), you think i should still get it as a stand alone supplement?
Ashwaganda
Fish oil

I've tried so many supps with no success to be honest, even the ones i take now don't give me much to enjoy. I've wasted too much money lol.

Edited by nito, 24 August 2010 - 06:50 AM.


#39 aLurker

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:48 PM

...


If the Perika doesn't work you might want to consider seeing a doctor and getting something prescribed instead since it seems like you've already tried everything else.

#40 Logan

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:02 PM

So far i have tried for solving depression mainly plus some generalized anxiety.

Perika
Kira
Rhodiola
Alcar
Lithium orotate
Multi
Magnesium malate
5-htp
Bacopa
L-tyrosine
SAM-e
piracetam
cdp- choline
1 bottle of nature answers fish oil (800 epa, 500 dha)
vinpocetine
gotu kola
vitamin d3 5000iu
Manganese
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root
Jarrow b right

Currently i'm taking
Lithium orotate
Magnesium malate
gotu kola
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root

I'm considering getting
Either perika again or try sc27 which i hear is effective
aniracetam
Holy basil? Theanine serene contains holy basil 5:1 (100mg), you think i should still get it as a stand alone supplement?
Ashwaganda
Fish oil

I've tried so many supps with no success to be honest, even the ones i take now don't give me much to enjoy. I've wasted too much money lol.


What about New Chapter's Serofin? How long did you give Perika the first time? You really need to give any SJW brand a good 6 to 8 weeks, unless side effects are unbearable of course.

I would definitely try New Chapter's Holy Basil as a stand alone.

So you never tried fish oil? I find that it works best as an adjunct to other treatments. You may have to experiment with dosage and brand. You may also have to find what DHA to EPA ratio works best.

Does regular exercise help at all? I respond best with moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch.

http://www.google.co...AHbwq8WPHUXoVYg

#41 Steve_86

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:36 PM

Just did a quick google scholar search... lithium appears to lower testosterone levels =/

#42 chrono

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 03:19 PM

Just did a quick google scholar search... lithium appears to lower testosterone levels =/

Probably not: Lithium: downside ? may reduce DHEA and Testosterone levels

#43 Logan

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:24 AM

Just did a quick google scholar search... lithium appears to lower testosterone levels =/


If this does occur, it most likely does not at very low doses. Those studies on lithium are almost always done using fairly high "therapeutic" doses. The effects and side effects of lithium are dose dependent.

#44 nito

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:05 AM

So far i have tried for solving depression mainly plus some generalized anxiety.

Perika
Kira
Rhodiola
Alcar
Lithium orotate
Multi
Magnesium malate
5-htp
Bacopa
L-tyrosine
SAM-e
piracetam
cdp- choline
1 bottle of nature answers fish oil (800 epa, 500 dha)
vinpocetine
gotu kola
vitamin d3 5000iu
Manganese
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root
Jarrow b right

Currently i'm taking
Lithium orotate
Magnesium malate
gotu kola
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root

I'm considering getting
Either perika again or try sc27 which i hear is effective
aniracetam
Holy basil? Theanine serene contains holy basil 5:1 (100mg), you think i should still get it as a stand alone supplement?
Ashwaganda
Fish oil

I've tried so many supps with no success to be honest, even the ones i take now don't give me much to enjoy. I've wasted too much money lol.


What about New Chapter's Serofin? How long did you give Perika the first time? You really need to give any SJW brand a good 6 to 8 weeks, unless side effects are unbearable of course.

I would definitely try New Chapter's Holy Basil as a stand alone.

So you never tried fish oil? I find that it works best as an adjunct to other treatments. You may have to experiment with dosage and brand. You may also have to find what DHA to EPA ratio works best.

Does regular exercise help at all? I respond best with moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch.

http://www.google.co...AHbwq8WPHUXoVYg


No i meant i have tried fish oil but im going back on it, 500 dha & 800 epa Natures' answer liquid brand.
I bought one perika bottle which contains 60 pills and didn't really follow a dosing schedule but took sometimes one pill and other times 2 or 3 but not everyday. So i can't claim i kept it up consistently for 6 weeks.

Haven't tried new chapter brand of SJW seroforin yet. Is it good? Which one would you go for between sc27 and new chapter seroforin? Considering i have tried perika and i know it had some effects, im considering buying that and one out of the two (sc27/NC seroforin) but i don't know which one to be honest.

#45 Logan

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 02:12 AM

So far i have tried for solving depression mainly plus some generalized anxiety.

Perika
Kira
Rhodiola
Alcar
Lithium orotate
Multi
Magnesium malate
5-htp
Bacopa
L-tyrosine
SAM-e
piracetam
cdp- choline
1 bottle of nature answers fish oil (800 epa, 500 dha)
vinpocetine
gotu kola
vitamin d3 5000iu
Manganese
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root
Jarrow b right

Currently i'm taking
Lithium orotate
Magnesium malate
gotu kola
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root

I'm considering getting
Either perika again or try sc27 which i hear is effective
aniracetam
Holy basil? Theanine serene contains holy basil 5:1 (100mg), you think i should still get it as a stand alone supplement?
Ashwaganda
Fish oil

I've tried so many supps with no success to be honest, even the ones i take now don't give me much to enjoy. I've wasted too much money lol.


What about New Chapter's Serofin? How long did you give Perika the first time? You really need to give any SJW brand a good 6 to 8 weeks, unless side effects are unbearable of course.

I would definitely try New Chapter's Holy Basil as a stand alone.

So you never tried fish oil? I find that it works best as an adjunct to other treatments. You may have to experiment with dosage and brand. You may also have to find what DHA to EPA ratio works best.

Does regular exercise help at all? I respond best with moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch.

http://www.google.co...AHbwq8WPHUXoVYg


No i meant i have tried fish oil but im going back on it, 500 dha & 800 epa Natures' answer liquid brand.
I bought one perika bottle which contains 60 pills and didn't really follow a dosing schedule but took sometimes one pill and other times 2 or 3 but not everyday. So i can't claim i kept it up consistently for 6 weeks.

Haven't tried new chapter brand of SJW seroforin yet. Is it good? Which one would you go for between sc27 and new chapter seroforin? Considering i have tried perika and i know it had some effects, im considering buying that and one out of the two (sc27/NC seroforin) but i don't know which one to be honest.


I've heard Serofin is like a stronger more calming Kira. SC27 may be more stimulating.

#46 nito

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 02:48 AM

So far i have tried for solving depression mainly plus some generalized anxiety.

Perika
Kira
Rhodiola
Alcar
Lithium orotate
Multi
Magnesium malate
5-htp
Bacopa
L-tyrosine
SAM-e
piracetam
cdp- choline
1 bottle of nature answers fish oil (800 epa, 500 dha)
vinpocetine
gotu kola
vitamin d3 5000iu
Manganese
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root
Jarrow b right

Currently i'm taking
Lithium orotate
Magnesium malate
gotu kola
Theanine serene relora
Ginger root

I'm considering getting
Either perika again or try sc27 which i hear is effective
aniracetam
Holy basil? Theanine serene contains holy basil 5:1 (100mg), you think i should still get it as a stand alone supplement?
Ashwaganda
Fish oil

I've tried so many supps with no success to be honest, even the ones i take now don't give me much to enjoy. I've wasted too much money lol.


What about New Chapter's Serofin? How long did you give Perika the first time? You really need to give any SJW brand a good 6 to 8 weeks, unless side effects are unbearable of course.

I would definitely try New Chapter's Holy Basil as a stand alone.

So you never tried fish oil? I find that it works best as an adjunct to other treatments. You may have to experiment with dosage and brand. You may also have to find what DHA to EPA ratio works best.

Does regular exercise help at all? I respond best with moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch.

http://www.google.co...AHbwq8WPHUXoVYg


No i meant i have tried fish oil but im going back on it, 500 dha & 800 epa Natures' answer liquid brand.
I bought one perika bottle which contains 60 pills and didn't really follow a dosing schedule but took sometimes one pill and other times 2 or 3 but not everyday. So i can't claim i kept it up consistently for 6 weeks.

Haven't tried new chapter brand of SJW seroforin yet. Is it good? Which one would you go for between sc27 and new chapter seroforin? Considering i have tried perika and i know it had some effects, im considering buying that and one out of the two (sc27/NC seroforin) but i don't know which one to be honest.


I've heard Serofin is like a stronger more calming Kira. SC27 may be more stimulating.


Ok i see. Thanks!

#47 bobman

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 06:56 AM

Lithium can have harmful effects at relatively low doses, even potentially fatal ones, and there is no evidence of any positive effect on cognitive function, beyond out of context quotes about increases in hippocampal and pre-frontal cortex volumes, that are erroneously extrapolated and used as the foundation of an ill-considered low dose regiment.

I know of no evidence suggesting that 5-10mg dosages of lithium are potentially toxic, let alone fatal. Most people take lithium for benefits related to mood and neuroprotection, not cognitive enhancement. It is unknown if it induces neurogenesis at these dosages; but if studies showing an increase in white matter are 'out of context' at this dose, then so are concerns about toxicity.


As far as toxicity studies, I'd take a harder look, it's toxic well before it reaches organ necrosis levels, not to meniton the fact that chelates like oratate probably provide more elemental lithium that carbonate, so "5-10mg" doesn't mean much. Patients have been known to exhibit systemic, acute toxicity from relatively low doses of carbonate, within the lower end of prescribed ranges, and paradoxically low serum concentrations. I'd have to dig to find the study I'm thinking of, or better yet put on your detective cap. The purported "neurogenic" effects seem pretty moot considering there has never been a single study linking this neurogensis, which is as far as I can tell deduced from mri volumetric study and not histological examination, to increases on any marker of cognition, and in fact it is known to carry wide-ranging singnal disruption effects, and nowhere is there meaningful evidence that this neurogenesis, once lithium is discontinued, provides a net positive effect. Heck there aren't even rodent studies suggesting this. 0 evidence. The neurogenesis could be in reaction to perceived neurotoxicity, or it could be benign, but even if it were benign, and ultimately beneficial, it's extremely unlikely that 5-10 mg of lithium carbonate would give you that effect. Show me 1 study providing any empirical evidence of lithium as a cognitively beneficial substance, especially long-term benefits (something we can link to any purported benign neurogenesis), and maybe I'll entertain the possibility. Otherwise I'll call the bluff: Lithium is and extremely toxic metal, tolerated long term only in trace levels, and all links to neurogenesis (hippocampal, prefrontal), that I've seen, are volumetric studies and could be the result of a number of things: neurotoxicity, increased blood flow, swelling. And even if it exhibits real, benign neurogenesis, what indicates that these new neurons are healthy and meaningfully integrated into the brain?

As an aside I've taken "low doses" of lithium (oratate) and it made me retarded. I also have 2 friends, and a breastful of studies indicating that carbonate absolutely destroys cognition. I've taken carbonate at 300mg, which is not a mild dose but supposedly equivalent to a middling dose of oratate, and it made me a zombie for 3 hours. If it's not clear already, I think it's a terrible idea, and it definetely is potentially dangerous, even at low doses. Heck you know what else increases neurogenesis? Scolpamine, and about a million other toxic substances, head injury, epilepsy, hypothermia, and no one would consider any of those things remotely beneficial for processing efficiency or capacity.
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#48 Logan

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:42 PM

Bobman, the studies or study done many years ago on lithium orotate bioavailability are not reliable. You simply cannot base potential toxicity lithium orotate on the potential toxicity lithium carbonate until more research is done.

On the other hand, there are plenty of legitimate studies on lithium and possible neuroprotection and neurogenesis. While they are pretty much all done on rats, you will find all the studies you need on pubmed.

As far as reactions to lithium in the orotate, aspartate, or carbonate form go, it is highly individualized, you may feel cognitive deficits or dulling effects on lithium while others may feel perfectly fine. I know one guy that feels great on 1000 mg of lithium carbonate and runs marathons, without any toxicity issues or adverse reactions.

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#49 Matt79

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:25 AM

I know one guy that feels great on 1000 mg of lithium carbonate and runs marathons, without any toxicity issues or adverse reactions.


:|o Eeeek :D




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