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Nootropi¡¦s stack, My profile, lots of ?s, help!


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#1 pinballwizard

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 10:17 AM


Nootropi¡¦s stack and suggestions for me, a visit to the Dr, Economist Article on Smart Drugs.

After lurking for quite some time, this is my first post. PLEASE ANSWER AT LEAST ONE QUESTION. I know my long post overwhelms you. I asked about 20 questions.

I have liked what you all have had to say, but decided to on trying Nootropi¡¦s stack. Do you have any suggestions or critiques on the regimen? Further below is Nootropi¡¦s (David¡¦s) stack + my little extras that I take. Do you like Nootropi¡¦s stack? I have taken the below stack for 4 days and I definitely see significant results.

Personal Profile
I am 30 years old, male, excellent health, dormant rheumatoid arthritis. I do Cardio for about 5-15 [thumb] hours a week at least which is great for my clarity. I was diagnosed with a learning disability in the first grade, slight dyslexia. Some weird alternative doctor thought I had low serotonin levels. I was diagnosed with ADD in the 7th grade by a good psychiatrist. He gave me the battery of psych tests then he put took 25mg ritalin for it for a year until the 8th grade. At age 25, I took the Johnson O¡¦Connor Aptitude test and it revealed that I was in the lowest decile (percentile for audio memory) and very low for visual memory. [mellow] That is bad. I think my IQ must be pretty low. I have had an enriched learning environment¡K tutors when I was in grade school. I travel. I am in masters of finance program [lol] , have a huge library and I am learning languages slowly. Currently I trade stocks and futures actively and I need fast reflexes. Are there any smart drugs for fast reflexes? Active trading is similar to online gaming and you need to think quickly. However, you also need to have little anxiety when trading.

Oh, I taught business and English as a second language in College in Eastern Europe. [lol] In conclusion, I am not halfway between an absent-minded professor and idiot savant. It is just that attention span and short-term memory is very poor.

Is there anyone out there my age with ADD or have a similar profile? What are you taking?

My primary doctor just told me that he thinks my problem might not be memory but in fact it is my attention. I fired back, ¡§short-term memory is quite similar to attention span and is often the same thing¡¨ Nevertheless, my short-term memory and my attention span both SUCK SO BAD I CAN SCREAM. [ang] What should I take for either of them? He proposed putting me on Straterra, an ADD drug and also putting me on Aricept. But, he wants me to see the pre-eminent neurologist and have him test me and diagnose me. I am not sure I want to go just yet because I don¡¦t think he would approve of my nootropic stack.

Would a neurologist approve of my nootropic regimen?!?

Do you guys have any opinions on Straterra?
Do you have any opinions on Aricept?

My biggest problems are attention span (i.e. ADD) and memory. I would also like to improve creative thought.)


The Nootropi Stack
1. Hydergine FAS 4.5 mg/day w/food „² I am starting with 1mg/day of the liquid and moving up because I don¡¦t want headaches that people have complained about.
2. Piracetam 800 or 1600 am 800 pm w/food „² I did not take an attack does yet for fear of a headache. Should I?
3. Aniracetam 750 am 500 pm
5. Oxiracetam 800 am 700 pm w/food
6. Picamilon 100 am 100 pm
7. CDP Choline or Alpha GPC 250 am
8. Centrophenoxine 125 mg am w/food
9. Pyritinol 300 am 1/200 pm
10. Adrafinil/Modafinil (600 OR 200 am) (empy stomach early AM) „² I don¡¦t take this because I hear it is a controlled substance that you can get arrested for without a prescription. Are there any neurological side effects?
11. RALA 200 am 200 pm 100-200 bedtime
12. ALCAR 800 am 800 pm 800 later pm (empty stomach AWAY from choline sources (centro and CDP))
13. Idebenone 45 am 45 pm w/food
14. Aricept 5 mg am (can be replaced with another ACh inhibitor) w/food „² I don¡¦t take this either, but my primary care physician recommended it.
(Should I have Aricept prescribed?)

(Is there anything that Nootropi is missing?)

In addition to his stack I also take:
Vinpocetine 100 mg AM, 100 mg pm
Creatine for weightlifting (if the smart drugs are as good as this is for weightlifting then I am very excited.)
Supernutrition brand multivitamins which have a B-100 complex
Caffeine from energy drinks which may include taurine, carnitine, ginseng.
Nicorrette gum with the equivalent of 8 cigarettes a day for memory and concentration. Are they any safer non-addictive alternatives to nicotine?
Omega 3,6,9.

I am interested in Adrafinil/Modafinil and I know it is in the process of being approved for ADD right now. Are there any side effects? I am a little reluctant because it is a new drug. I would rather take the old stuff with a track record. Is it an addictive amphetamine? The latest Economist article said that 90% of the people taking it don¡¦t use it for original use, narcolepsy. I know Nootropi likes it.

How would I be able to get some Adrafinil/Modafinil prescribed for ADD and is it safe? [huh]

;) :) I am very amazed at how these smart drugs have worked over the first 4 days. The change is totally obvious. I am getting so much more done. I have so much more mental energy and I don¡¦t have this brain drain. :) :)

One side effect is a minor headache in the front of my head, but I don¡¦t mind it, but I hope it goes away.

I was wondering if there are any smart drugs that make you cheerful and put you in a more positive mood. I am often in a stoic robotic mood, but not depressed. [mellow]

I want to take this stack for 90 days then call the neurologist and tell him what I am doing and eventually come clean and tell him what I am doing¡K I am hoping he won¡¦t give me some sort of ultimatum. I think this stuff is pretty safe and it is working. What do you think? Are there a lot of accepting doctors out there?

If you have not read this week¡¦s Economist magazine you can buy the article here. http://www.economist...tory_id=3171454 But it is a bit basic though. Here is the synopsis of Supercharging the brain
Sep 16th 2004
The Supercharging the brain articles basically states that, Smart Drugs were supposed to advance a great deal in the 90s with new types of technologies measuring the brain. However, finally 30 new smart drugs are in the pipeline. However, the problem is that often smart drugs might influence other things in body as well and that might be risky to take. Smart drugs need to be low risk to health. The acetyl-choline class of drugs has helped normal people, but not substantially. A common problem with the Alzheimer¡¦s drugs is that once you have the disease, it is too hard to repair the damage. Prevention seems easier than attacking the problem later in life. Ampakines and Adrafinil/modafiil are some of the more promising ones in the pipeline and they are very specific at where and how they work. However, a good brew of coffee has been one of the best smart drugs out there, and there have been few drugs that have been substantially better than coffee.

I think that smart drugs will come back into the mainstream because 90s research will eventually bring in some blockbuster drugs that just took a long time to bring to market. Afterall, the average drug takes 15-20 years to bring to market.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELPFUL POSTS! I need as many answers as you can give me though. [thumb] [thumb]

Sincerely,

Pinballwizard

#2 nootropi

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 03:12 PM

You do have a lot of questions, I must admit. Give me some time to answer them.

Can you copy/paste that article you refer to here? They want me to pay to view it.

Thanks.

P.S. I actually do not recommend that exact stack today. What would help me determine the best stack for you would be:

1. Any medications you already take
2. Any quirks about yourself
3. Your budget

Take care.

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#3 pinballwizard

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 10:45 PM

Hey Nootropi,

Thanks for your response. Here are some answers to your questions.

____________________________________________________________________
You do have a lot of questions, I must admit. Give me some time to answer them.
I appreciate it. I hope I did not scare anyone away since I was so thorough.

Can you copy/paste that article you refer to here? They want me to pay to view it.
Sorry, I can't paste it because of copyright laws. But the magazine article might still be available at your local magazine stand.

Thanks.

P.S. I actually do not recommend that exact stack today. What would help me determine the best stack for you would be:
Do you have new link of what you recommend

1. Any medications you already take
Just propecia for hair loss.
2. Any quirks about yourself
I think I was pretty thorough about this earlier. My short-term memory is pretty bad. So, is my attention span. Also, the smart stack I got is definitely showing some positive improvements, particularly with mental energy. My recall has become faster in just 4 days. I am in a highly stressful occupation, trading markets with market makers, hedge funders and other traders.
3. Your budget
My budget is pretty limitless at this point. As long as it works, I am willing to give it a shot.
Take care.

Comments, tangents, criticisms welcome.

Thanks,

Pinballwizard.


#4 sparticle

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 04:03 AM

I would recomend dropping tha caffeine from the nootrop program altogether and see how that works - you'll have to go through the withdrawal I assume but in my experience caffeine is only helpful when you're dependent on it - when you're totally free of it and re-calibrated it's a scattered stimulation and inseperable from anxiety, depression, and discontentment...

A good nootropic effect on a nervous system free from caffeine is just so much more advanced...

#5 nootropi

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 05:41 AM

Firstly: there is no "generic stack" that is perfect for everybody. What is most important is your response.

I just got back from a long drive. I will try to get back to you tomorrow morning...

Take care,

Noot [lol]

#6 nootropi

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Posted 21 September 2004 - 11:16 PM

Please see my most here for an updated version of this post

Edited by nootropi, 23 September 2004 - 12:43 AM.


#7 pinballwizard

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Posted 22 September 2004 - 08:16 PM

thanks, nootropi

This is great. Probably, a little more than I expected. What is your regimen? Is it this? No matter what, I think I will stick to the one I have and not change to much until I get done with this stuff. I am going to do the existing regimen for 3 months first to see any effects. It might be better to start slowly.

Do you have any books or material you might recommend to learn more?

However, how would you know what is giving you side effects if you were to be getting them? I think you might have a hard time figuring out what is bothering you?

Pinball

#8 nootropi

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Posted 23 September 2004 - 12:54 AM

thanks, nootropi

This is great.  Probably, a little more than I expected.  What is your regimen?  Is it this?  No matter what, I think I will stick to the one I have and not change to much until I get done with this stuff.  I am going to do the existing regimen for 3 months first to see any effects.  It might be better to start slowly.

Do you have any books or material you might recommend to learn more?

However, how would you know what is giving you side effects if you were to be getting them?  I think you might have a hard time figuring out what is bothering you? 

Pinball


I think your question is answered here

#9 pinballwizard

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Posted 23 September 2004 - 08:24 AM

Nootropi,

I would really love to hear what people say about what nootropics should be added and in what order. This would be a great contribution to the board.

Nootropi, your contributions to the bulletin board do not go unnoticed. I like you elaboration on tritating (slowly increasing the dose) of the nootropics one at a time in the
link you provided.

You would seriously be the man if you posted which order you tritated the nootropics and vitamins etc.

I should do that, but I did not. I am still taking your stack of 14 that is posted above plus the others below.

My side-effects have been minimal. I have had a mild head swell, headache that is. It is has gotten better with each passing day. Plus, I am having a little trouble sleeping. Perhaps there are some things on the list that I should not be taking or I should take it earlier in the day. I have always had some trouble sleeping. I think part of the side effects could be the nicotine or the caffeine.
If any of you guys know of the usual suspects for very mild headaches and insomnia let me know....? I think it is just getting used to the stuff. With each passing day, it gets better. I should also say my stomach is a little upset too, but very mildly.
suggestions, anyone?

But yes, since we prescribe to ourselves we need to sack up and take it right like you, but I did not. this might be a personal problem, I think most everyone went in slowly If I had to do it all over again. I would start with the -cetams first, 2nd then add the hydergine, third, add the choline related nootrops, then add the deprenyl (one mg... the stuff is strong for us young people). Finally add the non-choline related things. Centrophenoxine, if remember correctly, apparently is pretty strong and it might be good to skip dosages every once and a while.

This way you are not only tritating the -cetams but you are also tritating the Acetyl choline levels in the brain.

But, what do I know? very little still. so feel free to correct the recommendation. I might have made some mistakes in writing this.

I think if I continue getting a subtle headache, I will start all over.

I really recommend not doing it the way I did it. This is one of the reasons why we have doctors, so they can make the rational decisions. Also, some items are not true nootropics, like deprenyl. Being safe for 99% of the people is not a nootropic imho. With deprenyl you can become fatally ill if you take some particular drugs. I saw the contraindications before taking it of course, but I think it is good to bring it up again.

I think either way, in a couple weeks, I will take certain certain nootropics out of the regimen and mix it up. I don't want to know because I know I will probably have to quit drinking caffeine so that I can find out what the effects are because I know it has side-effects. I dont want to give up my caffeine and the nicorette gum [ang] .

Like I said, I would really love to hear what people say about what nootropics should be added and in what order.

We should get some polls in here to find out how much people are taking of what. I know we have to use the trial and error method because are brains are all different, however, I still feel like I am a little in the dark. I guess I will have to keep reading and keep the doses low.

If the headaches get stronger, I might assume that my acetyl choline levels might be getting too elevated. However, I would stop taking the whole stack (all of them) until I feel comfortable (that would give me an excuse to start on the tritating from the beginning). I know I have gotten a wierd head swell with the ginko biloba and it could be happenning with the vinpocetine because they both increase circulation and I am trying to use some intuition here. I wish I had more experience and knoweledge.

constructive criticism welcome, (lets get a tritation recommended order going, someone start posting)

Thanks for letting me learn from you guys... It is better than just reading the journals, advertisements, drug warnings/indications etc,

pinball

#10 nootropi

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 01:31 AM

Nootropi,

I would really love to hear what people say about what nootropics should be added and in what order.  This would be a great contribution to the board. 

Nootropi, your contributions to the bulletin board do not go unnoticed.  I like you elaboration on tritating (slowly increasing the dose) of the nootropics one at a time in the
link you provided. 

You would seriously be the man if you posted which order you tritated the nootropics and vitamins etc.

I should do that, but I did not.  I am still taking your stack of 14 that is posted above plus the others below. 

My side-effects have been minimal.  I have had a mild head swell, headache that is.  It is has gotten better with each passing day.  Plus, I am having a little trouble sleeping.  Perhaps there are some things on the list that I should not be taking or I should take it earlier in the day.  I have always had some trouble sleeping.  I think part of the side effects could be the nicotine or the caffeine.
If any of you guys know of the usual suspects for very mild headaches and insomnia let me know....?  I think it is just getting used to the stuff.  With each passing day, it gets better.  I should also say my stomach is a little upset too, but very mildly.
suggestions, anyone? 

But yes, since we prescribe to ourselves we need to sack up and take it right like you, but I did not.  this might be a personal problem, I think most everyone went in slowly If I had to do it all over again.  I would start with the -cetams first, 2nd then add the hydergine, third, add the choline related nootrops, then add the deprenyl (one mg...  the stuff is strong for us young people).  Finally add the non-choline related things.  Centrophenoxine, if remember correctly, apparently is pretty strong and it might be good to skip dosages every once and a while.

This way you are not only tritating the -cetams but you are also tritating the Acetyl choline levels in the brain. 

But, what do I know?  very little still. so feel free to correct the recommendation.  I might have made some mistakes in writing this. 

I think if I continue getting a subtle headache, I will start all over. 

I really recommend not doing it the way I did it.  This is one of the reasons why we have doctors, so they can make the rational decisions.  Also, some items are not true nootropics, like deprenyl.  Being safe for 99% of the people is not a nootropic imho.  With deprenyl you can become fatally ill if you take some particular drugs.  I saw the contraindications before taking it of course, but I think it is good to bring it up again.

  I think either way, in a couple weeks, I will take certain certain nootropics out of the regimen and mix it up.  I don't want to know because I know I will probably have to quit drinking caffeine so that I can find out what the effects are because I know it has side-effects.  I dont want to give up my caffeine and the nicorette gum [ang] .

Like I said, I would really love to hear what people say about what nootropics should be added and in what order.

We should get some polls in here to find out how much people are taking of what.  I know we have to use the trial and error method because are brains are all different, however, I still feel like I am a little in the dark.  I guess I will have to keep reading and keep the doses low.

If the headaches get stronger, I might assume that my acetyl choline levels might be getting too elevated.  However, I would stop taking the whole stack (all of them) until I feel comfortable (that would give me an excuse to start on the tritating from the beginning).  I know I have gotten a wierd head swell with the ginko biloba and it could be happenning with the vinpocetine because they both increase circulation and I am trying to use some intuition here.  I wish I had more experience and knoweledge. 

constructive criticism welcome, (lets get a tritation recommended order going, someone start posting)

Thanks for letting me learn from you guys... It is better than just reading the journals, advertisements, drug warnings/indications etc,

pinball


The titration should be one at a time. Please send me a personal message with your questions; that way I could be more helpful to you.

Take care.

#11 squork

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 04:14 AM

Just chiming in with my experience re headaches. Now whenever I take any sort of nootropic, namely: hydergine, piracetam, aniracetam, deprenyl, phosphadityl serine, picamillon, centroxopine, choline...I get a really bad headache. Even high concentrate multivitamins have the same effect. I can't say I see great improvements cognitively either. It's probably been about 4 months since I've started experimenting with these supplements, each one lasting 1 week with some mental enhancement, but then diminishing in efficacy and increasing in head tension. The one week honeymoon period was nice, but now my body has figured out what's up and seems to want to say "Get that shit out of here!" My hope was that the headaches would subside like side-effects that go away with prolonged use of anti-depressants, but trials are showing that it only intensifies with continued use.

One theory I have is that I permanently lessened my tolerance threshold for all neurological manipulation by attack-dosing piracetam. This is analogous to heat stroke--once it happens your body is less tolerant of heat. Then again, maybe I just need a break longer than a week.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[glasses]

#12 lynx

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 08:00 PM

Squork,

What is your anti-oxidant regimen like? I am wondering if the increased neuronal firing might be overloading your natural defenses SOD, GSH, CAT etc, and radical toxicity somehow causing headaches.

#13 squork

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 04:26 AM

lynx,

I don't have one. What would you suggest?

#14 nootropi

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 04:57 AM

I am not lynx, but I think an excellent basic antioxidant regimen should include:

1. K-RALA (and ALCAR 2 grams per day in at least 2 divided doses too) <600 mg per day in at least three divided doses
2. A full spectrum E (gamma, delta, and beta tocopherol)
3. Activin grape seed extract <100 mg twice daily with meals
4. Green tea (extract), 96% polyphenols, 70% catechins <250 mg twice daily with meals
5. Olive leaf extract 17% oleuropeins <500 mg twice daily with meals
6. Vitamin C 833% supplement
7. N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine 600 mg with breakfast
8. Resveratrol 10 mg with breakfast, 10 with lunch
9. 500 mg L-Carnosine twice daily before meals, on an empty stomach--20 minutes before eating
10. Ginko biloba <120 mg twice daily, standardized to 24% flavone glycosides, 6% terpene lactones (brain antioxidant)
11. Bacopa standardized to 20% bacosides 600 mg am 500 mg pm (brain antioxidant)
12. Pyritinol <600 mg am with breakfast (brain antioxidant)
13. Hydgergine FAS 4.5 mg daily (brain antioxidant)
14. A full spectrum multivitamin/multimineral providing minimum 100% USRDA

Some data support from animal (and test tube) studies:



Antioxidants modulate the nitric oxide system and SOD activity and expression in rat epithelial lung cells.

Madar Z, Maayan N, Sarit O, Eliraz A.

The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, The Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Rehovot, Israel.

Nitric Oxide (NO) plays a key role in many physiological processes and is synthesized by the enzyme Nitric Oxide Synthase (NOS). There is increasing evidence that NO produced in human airways is involved in pathological events, such as asthma. This work investigated the effect of various antioxidants on NO production and on iNOS and SOD expression and activity in stimulated epithelial lung cells, as a model for asthma. L-2 cells were stimulated with combinations of TNFa, INF and LPS for 24h, followed by incubation with increasing concentrations of N-acetyl-l-cystein (NAC), resveratrol, Genistein, Quercetin, soy saponin 2, 3-dihydro-2, 5-dihydroxy-6-methyl-4H-pyran-4-one (DDMPl) and with an olive leaf polyphenol extract. NO production was determined by measuring nitrate and nitrite concentrations using the Griess reaction. Expression of iNOS and SOD were detected using western blot analysis. SOD activity was measured by an ingel activity assay. cGMP was also detected using radioimmunoassay kit. In stimulated cells, the concentration of nitrites in the medium increased 4 fold compared to control cells. Resveratrol and the olive leaf extract reduced nitrite levels in the medium by 37% and 41% respectively. Quercetin and genistein reduced nitrite levels by approximately 50%. However, NAC increased levels by 48% and DDMP had no effect. A significant reductions in iNOS expression were measured following treatment with polyphenol extract and resveratrol. SOD expression was higher in stimulated cells when compared to controls and a significant increase was detected by olive leaf extract, quercetin and genistein. Total SOD activity, as well as cGMP levels were not affected by cytokine stimulation or by any treatment. The presence of resveratrol as well as a polyphenol extract in a cellular model of asthma significantly reduced iNOS expression and medium nitrite concentrations. These compounds presumably act by different mechanisms. The polyphenol extraction affects the antioxidant enzyme MnSOD while resveratrol does not. These results indicate that treatment with these active compounds may be beneficial in inflammatory lung diseases.



Total phenolics and antioxidant activities of fenugreek, green tea, black tea, grape seed, ginger, rosemary, gotu kola, and ginkgo extracts, vitamin E, and tert-butylhydroquinone.

Rababah TM, Hettiarachchy NS, Horax R.

Department of Food Science, University of Arkansas, 2650 North Young Avenue, Fayetteville, Arkansas 72704, USA.

The total phenolics and antioxidant activities of fenugreek, green tea, black tea, grape seed, ginger, rosemary, gotu kola, and ginkgo extracts, vitamin E, and tert-butylhydroquinone, were determined. Grape seed and green tea were analyzed for their phenolic constituents using high-performance liquid chromatography. The total phenolics of the plant extracts, determined by the Folin-Ciocalteu method, ranged from 24.8 to 92.5 mg of chlorogenic acid equivalent/g dry material. The antioxidant activities of methanolic extracts determined by conjugated diene measurement of methyl linoleate were 3.4-86.3%. The antioxidant activity of the extracts using chicken fat by an oxidative stability instrument (4.6-10.2 h of induction time) followed a similar trend in antioxidant activity as determined by the Folin-Ciocalteu method. Seven phenolics in grape seed and green tea extracts were identified that ranged from 15.38 to 1158.49 and 18.3 to 1087.02 mg/100 g of extract, respectively. Plant extracts such as green tea and grape seed extracts can be used to retard lipid oxidation in a variety of food products.


Prevention of age-related spatial memory deficits in a transgenic mouse model of Alzheimer's disease by chronic Ginkgo biloba treatment.

Stackman RW, Eckenstein F, Frei B, Kulhanek D, Nowlin J, Quinn JF.

Department of Behavioral Neuroscience, Oregon Health & Science University, Portland, OR 97239-3098, USA. stackman@ohsu.edu

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is characterized by cognitive decline and deposition of beta-amyloid (Abeta) plaques in cortex and hippocampus. A transgenic mouse AD model (Tg2576) that overexpresses a mutant form of human Abeta precursor protein exhibits age-related cognitive deficits, Abeta plaque deposition, and oxidative damage in the brain. We tested the ability of Ginkgo biloba, a flavonoid-rich antioxidant, to antagonize the age-related behavioral impairment and neuropathology exhibited by Tg2576 mice. At 8 months of age, 16 female Tg2576 and 15 female wild-type (wt) littermate mice were given ad lib access to tap water or Ginkgo biloba (70 mg/kg/day in water). After 6 months of treatment, all mice received Morris water maze training (4 trials/day for 10 days) to assess hippocampal dependent spatial learning. All mice received a 60-s probe test of spatial memory retention 24 h after the 40th trial. Untreated Tg2576 mice exhibited a spatial learning impairment, relative to wt mice, while Ginkgo biloba-treated Tg2576 mice exhibited spatial memory retention comparable to wt during the probe test. Spatial learning was not different between Ginkgo biloba-treated and untreated wt mice. There were no group differences in learning to swim to a visible platform. Soluble Abeta and hippocampal Abeta plaque burden did not differ between the Tg2576 groups. Brain levels of protein carbonyls were paradoxically elevated in Ginkgo biloba-treated mice. These data indicate that chronic Ginkgo biloba treatment can block an age-dependent decline in spatial cognition without altering Abeta levels and without suppressing protein oxidation in a transgenic mouse model of AD.

(more data available at pubmed)

Edited by nootropi, 25 September 2004 - 04:05 PM.


#15 squork

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 10:45 PM

Nootroper,

Isn't there a more modest regimen you could recommend to counteract the effects of the other nootropics?

One thing you included in your list that I get headaches from is hydergine. It seems whether it's a vascular dialator or constrictor, I seem to respond the same way after a week of continued use, even at low dose levels.

Another theory is that maybe I need to improve the elasticity of my blood vessels or quicken the adaption time to fluctuations in blood pressure levels. When doing yoga, I get head rushes when returning from a inverted pose to a standing pose--a reaction that none of the other students complained about. What does this say about my circulatory system? If the above theory is correct, what supplements or exercises could be done to bring about change?

Any insights would be welcome.

Cheers,

#16 nootropi

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 11:31 PM

Nootroper,

Isn't there a more modest regimen you could recommend to counteract the effects of the other nootropics?

One thing you included in your list that I get headaches from is hydergine. It seems whether it's a vascular dialator or constrictor, I seem to respond the same way after a week of continued use, even at low dose levels. 

Another theory is that maybe I need to improve the elasticity of my blood vessels or quicken the adaption time to fluctuations in blood pressure levels. When doing yoga, I get head rushes when returning from a inverted pose to a standing pose--a reaction that none of the other students complained about.  What does this say about my circulatory system? If the above theory is correct, what supplements or exercises could be done to bring about change?

Any insights would be welcome.

Cheers,


Hello sqork,

I am sorry, but there is no generic "modest nootropic regimen" that I could recommend for everybody. Every individual reacts somewhat differently, depending on several general health, genetic, and cultural factors.

I advise you add one nootropic at a time and titrate up to the desired range (if possible) and ensure that you have your primary care physician examine the results of a CBC, differential, platlet count, comprehensive metabolic panel, and full lipid panel BEFORE starting any life extension/nootropic regimen.

What are you looking for in your regimen exactly?

#17 pinballwizard

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 01:38 AM

Today,

I felt a little wozy too... I felt some dizzy spells when moving around all of a sudden too. Even without the Yoga. While it is minor, itwill get frustrating soon. What is behind it? What could it be in the old Nootropi regimen? I only do 1mg which is 1ml of the liquid hydergine (if my Italian lable reading is correct). That bottle would go quick otherwise.

Pinball

#18 squork

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 02:13 AM

I think I was unclear on my head rush experiences. In fact, even before taking any "mind-altering" drugs, I would get head rushes when making sudden extreme changes in head position. I thought this might be an indicator that I have a predesposition to blood vessel sensitivity in the head, whereby any manipulation of brain oxidation or anti-oxidation will cause an onset of a headache.

Thoughts?

Again this is all theoretical, and probably not very useful in coming up with concrete answers to my questions. Nootropi's probably right in that it's best to first get a status report on one's chemical make-up before starting a serious nootropic regimen.

Thanks for everyone's input.

#19 nootropi

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 02:26 AM

Personally I think that the deprenyl is most likely to cause problems with side effects. Do you guys take deprenyl?

#20 squork

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 02:49 AM

I did for one week, then quit.

#21 pinballwizard

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 10:51 AM

I take 1mg deprenyl. Yeah, I cut the pill is best as I can. (I will go to liquid if I continue it) I will stop taking it for a while if it happens again. I stopped the PM doses today though just in case. I never thought of getting a battery of blood tests prior to taking the nootropic regimen. I feel mentally much clearer with the nootropics still though, however, some of it is the caffeine energy drinks I take. What neurotransmission system does my caffeine effect? thanks, Noot.

#22 jolly

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 08:56 PM

I've got add myself, the modafinil and and pyrnitol will be the most effective - beyond that, id recommend bacoba and DMAE - for ADD.

#23 pinballwizard

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 01:18 AM

Nootropi and everyone else,

I was thinking of doing an attack dose of piracetam and the cetams as everyone suggested. How much are you supposed to do? There is a predicament since the following are more potent when taking together. If you are stacking these below, (among the others contained in the previous posts,) what do you suggest, Nootropi?

from noots old stack.
1. Hydergine FAS 1 mg/day w/food „² I am starting with 1mg/day of the liquid and moving up because I don¡¦t want headaches that people have complained about. (Nootropi's old suggested stack has 4.5 mgs daily)
2. Piracetam 800 or 1600 am 800 pm w/food „² I did not take an attack does yet for fear of a headache. Should I?
3. Aniracetam 750 am 500 pm
5. Oxiracetam 800 am 700 pm w/foodf

Perhaps you are reluctant to recommend an attack dose since you want to titrate it. what would you titrate the -cetams up to?

Thanks,

Pinball

#24 nootropi

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 03:09 AM

Really quick:

Lower aniracetam to 2 500 mg doses
Oxiracetam to 2 600 mg doses
Piracetam to 2 800 mg doses

Take a choline:

I suggest 1000 mg alpha gpc 50% twice daily

All above with breakfast and lunch

Attack dose is BS. Take the doses above at the same times for a month and then reconsider.

#25 scottl

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 03:29 AM

"I do Cardio for about 5-15 hours a week at least which is great for my clarity."


But probably not wonders for your cortisol level. Are you really serious that you do more then one hour/day of cardio, and if so why? Are you really sure that less will not achieve your goals?? Any idea what percentage of your max heart rate you are working at? Or just tell me what heart rate/rate range you're workin in.

Also, what do you mean by "dormant rheumatoid arthritis"? and how many hours of sleep are you getting?

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#26 pinballwizard

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Posted 27 September 2004 - 08:53 PM

"I do Cardio for about 5-15  hours a week at least which is great for my clarity."


But probably not wonders for your cortisol level.  Are you really serious that you do more then one hour/day of cardio, and if so why?  Are you really sure that less will not achieve your goals??  Any idea what percentage of your max heart rate you are working at? Or just tell me what heart rate/rate range you're workin in.

Also, what do you mean by "dormant rheumatoid arthritis"?  and how many hours of sleep are you getting?



Scott,

I am totally serious. I can do three hours of cardio on a regular basis sometimes. However, not these last couple weeks. Why? weight loss and rheumatoid arthritus, stress management, and it feels good. The trick is keeping your heart rate low and doing non-impact exercise. If I were to have my heart rate above 140 beats per minute for more than a half hour, it would not only be anaerobic and stress the body, but I would be totally exhausted the next day and not want to be at work let alone the gym. It would break down muscle and I dont want to look like a marathon runner and I don't currently look like one. I weigh 220lbs and my natural wieght at 6'2" with my large frame is around 195lbs. I try to do between 125 and 135 beats per minute which is within the confines of my maximum heart rate as a thirty year old male for aerobic exercise. Can I achieve my goals with less? Not yet, not with consistent weightloss anyway. I am sure that you could, but it would take a year to get down to the weight but I would rather do it in a few months.

Stress management is key. I trade stocks and futures for a living. Stress is huge!

Thorough detail about my rheumatoid arthritus
Rheumatoid arthritus is a genetic disease (3 out of 4 grandparents had it) where the white blood cells attack that which maintains the joints. Mine is dormant in 2 ways. First, the white-blood cells actually figured out that they were doing friendly fire on the joints or proteins or whatever and stopped. This is confirmed by blood tests. Secondly it is dormant in sense of the pain is gone, even though damage has been done, but only if I excercise. Strangely, if the body feels less pain if you stress the parts and get the circulation going. Rheumatoid arthritus affects all joints all over the body and usually starts in the fingers and toes but another symptom is that it "roams". One day it is one joint and another day it is another. Genetic tests have confirmed my RA.

How much sleep am I getting? right now 7-8. When I am back at work, 6-7. I try to work out immediately after work so that I can sleep well.

While many think that the amount time I work out is a little unnatural, I feel good doing it, and it is because I keep my heart rate relatively low...You have to monitor it and force yourself to stay in a small window. I think it is more unnatural that the USA and the anglo-world is so overweight.

How does all this affect my cortisol levels and what are its implications?

Thanks,

Pinball




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