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Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA


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20 replies to this topic

#1 babyseal

  • Location:USA

Posted 01 August 2010 - 01:28 PM


Was stupid and used a small dose of MDMA two months ago (under circumstances where an until then trusted mentor presented it as a one-time chance for therapeutic growth, since she happened to have some - not in a party setting).

Recovery took a long time. Was depressed for a while but that's finally gone away now that I'm taking good supplements to replenish depleted stores of NTs.

However, two months out, I am still having some difficulty with typing, where my brain-hand coordination is not as good as it used to be. I make more typing errors.

It seems to be related to LOW DOPAMINE. I don't think it's permanent, since it varies from day to day and has been fine (e.g. totally back to normal) at certain times, such as when on Wellbutrin for two weeks (had to stop due to ototoxicity and tinnitus).

DLPA seems to help. Taking too much 5-HTP seems to make the problem worse. Maybe I have the balance wrong - I've been using 500mg DLPA and 100mg 5-HTP twice a day, plus B-vitamins and other co-factors.

Tyrosine did not feel good, I don't remember exactly what happened but I think I felt too much of a kick from even a small amount.

Anything else to restore dopamine levels?
What to take along with the DLPA?
Anything else to restore synaptic connections (my doctor said I needed to restore neurotransmitter stores and synaptic connections)?

What's involved in recovery after MDMA? What processes are happening, and how can I support them?

Edited by babyseal, 01 August 2010 - 01:30 PM.


#2 Steve_86 Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Australia - Perth

Posted 01 August 2010 - 05:49 PM

It sounds like you were once a heavy user? either that or you are very sensitive to the negative effects.

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#3 Trevor Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:FL, USA

Posted 01 August 2010 - 07:28 PM

"But it was a one-time chance for therapeutic growth, officer!"

You should probably have blood work done to see if you have any underlying problems. Acetyl L Carnitine will enhance dopamine levels but you should definitely get checked out.

#4 babyseal Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:USA

Posted 01 August 2010 - 11:24 PM

No way, single-time user. Low-dose (70mg). No other drugs, no alcohol. But I do tend to be sensitive to medications.

I have told about 5 doctors about this (whom I saw for this or for other reasons), they said I would be fine, and I had regular bloodwork done and it was all fine.

I didn't know ALCAR enhanced dopamine. It does seem to help me (I have used while dealing with these after-effects), but I don't know whether I should take it without ALA (ALA gives me headaches). I do take CoQ10 and E, so maybe those are enough antioxidants to match 250mg ALCAR. Any thoughts?

#5 medievil Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Belguim

Posted 02 August 2010 - 02:46 AM

Your reaction to the drug is pretty strange considering low incidental use of MDMA doesnt appear to be associated with cognitive problems.

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2007 Aug;193(3):403-14. Epub 2007 May 3.
Incidental use of ecstasy: no evidence for harmful effects on cognitive brain function in a prospective fMRI study.
Jager G, de Win MM, Vervaeke HK, Schilt T, Kahn RS, van den Brink W, van Ree JM, Ramsey NF.

Department of Neurosurgery, A.01.126, Rudolf Magnus Institute of Neuroscience, University Medical Center Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands. gjager@umcutrecht.nl
Abstract
RATIONALE: Heavy ecstasy use in humans has been associated with cognitive impairments and changes in cognitive brain function supposedly due to damage to the serotonin system. There is concern that even a single dose of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine may be neurotoxic, but very little is known about the consequences of a low dose of ecstasy for cognitive brain function. OBJECTIVES: The objective of the study was to assess the effects of a low dose of ecstasy on human cognitive brain function using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). MATERIALS AND METHOD: We prospectively studied, as part of the NeXT (Netherlands XTC toxicity) study, sustained effects of a low dose of ecstasy on brain function in 25 subjects before and after their first episode of ecstasy use (mean 2.0 +/- 1.4 ecstasy pills, on average 11.1 +/- 12.9 weeks since last ecstasy use), compared to 24 persistent ecstasy-naive controls, also measured twice and matched with the novice users on age, gender, IQ, and cannabis use. Cognitive brain function was measured in the domains of working memory, selective attention, and associative memory using fMRI. RESULTS: No significant effects were found of a low dose of ecstasy on working memory, selective attention, or associative memory neither at the behavioral level nor at the neurophysiological level. CONCLUSIONS: This study yielded no firm evidence for sustained effects of a low dose of ecstasy on human cognitive brain function. The present findings are relevant for the development of prevention and harm reduction strategies. Furthermore, the study is relevant to the discussion concerning potential therapeutic use of ecstasy.


That said, you may want to search for a few older threads about this, there are quite a few good suggestions in there. Personally i found that EGCG reversed the cognitive problems i had from a RC combination/overdose.

#6 chrono Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:New England

Posted 02 August 2010 - 04:55 AM

Regarding ALCAR and antioxidants, it's exceedingly unlikely you have to worry about a dose that low at all. See ALCAR & Free Radical Production. ALCAR has several mechanisms besides dopamine which may be helping in this situation. I would think about upping your dose to at least .5-1g 1-2x daily, if it doesn't give you any negative sides.

A good thread about MDMA damage is serotonin receptor regeneration nootropics?, which also has some links to even older topics. All contain many suggestions of potentially regenerative substances which might help out.

#7 k10 Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:24 AM

I have had asymptomatic lyme disease (didn't even know it), but after the stress of taking several pharmaceutical stimulants and anti-depressants triggered my lyme symptoms to flare 2 years ago. It was intense.

I would think that if you had a reaction to the ecstasy it more than likely brought out an underlying problem to surface. Get a complete physical to rule out all the basics, and if you still have symptoms and I was in your place I would consider a potential chronic infection brought to surface by the ecstasy. That's just based on my experience and observations of others who seem to get seemingly unexplainable symptoms from low-dosages of drugs or supplements -- and then blame it on "damage" from that drug or supplement, when in reality it just caused something that was already there to surface.

#8 chrono Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:New England

Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:05 AM

^^I think this is good advice (though other problems, physical and psychological, are probably possible in addition to chronic infection). Even given the somewhat scary-sounding damage MDMA has been shown to cause (see the thread I linked), your response sounds a lot more severe than it 'should be' for a single small dose.

Going to a doctor and asking them to check if ecstasy has done any damage might be the wrong approach; this would be pretty difficult even with before/after neuroimaging scans. Maybe start looking at what else these problems might be a symptom of, and start checking for those.

Though neuroprotective/regenerative substances are still probably a great idea. Maybe something like ALCAR/ashwagandha/lion's mane/tianeptine?

#9 OneScrewLoose Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:California

Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:33 AM

I am going to join the conga line saying that it is very unlikely that a single dose of MDMA would do this to you, but rather you have some underlying problem and it made it more evident, perhaps by making you feel really good. If you suspect Dopamine, I would start with L-Tyrosine, and then see if that helps. You could also look into Wellbutrin, Ritalin, and Deprenyl. Look for threads on all of them, especially Deprenyl (increases all Dopamine levels), but be very careful, as these are not drugs to be taken lightly. I have to warn you though, explanations of too much or too little of a specific NT tend to be overly simplistic and you will probably find that your problems are a bit more complex, though hopefully not. :)

#10 kilgoretrout Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:36 AM

A single small dose will not cause such longlasting depletion and damage, First the neurotransmitters are replenished pretty quickly, on a continual daily basis. Second, the classic much ballyhooed by the DEA research purporting to show massive neuronal damage from single normal dose usage have BEEN RETRACTED BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHORS AND ADMITTED TO BE ERRONEOUS. They were "accidentally" using phenomenally immense doses of methamphetamine, NOT MDMA. Furthermore, numerous more careful subsequent studies of actual typical doses of the correct drug in humans have not been able to find more than minimal deleterious effects.

See info, reports, studies, links on this near fraud posted here - #21

Those stupid, careless researchers... those poor monkeys... they ALL died... only a few out of the millions of humans who have taken mdma died, and those are believed related to dehydration, huge overdoses, or combos with other stuff.

Not promoting its use, but crap science intended to impact law needs to be called out.

If you think you have neuronal damage,take loads of antioxidants. They can help reverse damage, and there is even a study showing the human equivalent of 5g vitamin C one hour prior to MDMA use completely blocks the appearance of hyperexitory stress indications.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 02 August 2010 - 09:52 AM.

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#11 kilgoretrout Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 02 August 2010 - 04:48 PM

Perhaps your symptoms are related to psychological anxiety over your single MDMA use. Perhaps the following information will help ease your mind:

http://www.maps.org/mdma/

MAPS' top priority project is funding clinical trials of methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) as a therapeutic tool to assist psychotherapy for the treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and other illnesses. Preliminary studies have shown that MDMA in conjunction with psychotherapy can help people overcome PTSD. MDMA has empathogenic effects, and it is also known as the popular drug Ecstasy (although "Ecstasy" does not always contain pure MDMA). In laboratory studies, MDMA has been proven sufficiently safe for human consumption when taken a limited number of times in moderate doses.

MAPS is in the midst of a 10 year - $10 million plan to make MDMA into a government-approved prescription medicine. For-profit pharmaceutical companies are not interested in developing MDMA into a medicine, because the patent for MDMA has expired. Companies cannot profit off of MDMA because it is only administered a limited number of times, unlike most medications for mental illnesses that are taken on a daily basis. Consequently MAPS is the only organization funding clinical trials of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in the world.

MAPS is studying whether MDMA-assisted psychotherapy has the potential to heal traumas caused by sexual assault, war, violent crime, and other causes.

Below is comprehensive and updated information about MAPS efforts to develop MDMA into a government-approved prescription medicine, as well as useful information for understanding the benefits and risks of MDMA use

[see web page for links to news and published research]



The retraction mentioned above highlights some troubling questions about the politics of science and its effect on the data that make it into peer reviewed literature.

Rick Doblin and the team at MAPS are following this issue closely and keeping a list of news articles and responses at: http://www.maps.org/...dyresponse.html. Just the first of numerous articles are listed below.


George Ricaurte retracts his paper published in Science claiming that Ecstasy causes severe dopaminergic depletion and can lead to Parkinson's disease.

For a paper critiquing the methodology and conclusions of some of Dr. Ricaurte's other papers, read "Deconstructing Ecstasy" by Dr. Charles Grob.

Learn more about this amazing development:

December 23, 2005. An article by Reuters news service, "Medical frauds: Korean scientist hardly the first", lists several previous articles that have had to be withdrawn from major medical journals. Included in the list is the 2002 paper in /Science/ by Ricaurte/McCann claiming that MDMA damaged dopamine neurons and could cause Parkinson's, retracted since the animals had actually been administered methamphetamine and not MDMA.

August 2, 2005. Ironically, after NIDA-funded researchers Drs. McCann and Ricaurte claimed that MDMA damaged dopamine neurons and could cause Parkinson's disease, a claim that they later had to retract, new research conducted at Duke University Medical Center has shown that MDMA is the most effective of 60 drugs tested in reversing the symptoms of Parkinson's disease! This research was discussed in an article in News-Medical.Net; note also a brief commentary on this and other related research into MDMA as an anti-Parkinson's disease treatment.

October 12, 2004. As a result of a FOIA request made earlier this year, MAPS now has information on National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) funding awarded to Dr. George Ricaurte and Dr. Una McCann in 2003 for the study of MDMA (Ecstasy) neurotoxicity and functional consequnces of Ecstasy use. The pair of Johns Hopkins researchers were awarded over $1.8 million dollars during 2003. This brings their total government funding to more than $16.4 million since 1989.

September 14, 2004. The journal Movement Disorders has recently published two letters in response to a report of parkinsonism in a former ecstasy user, and include a reply from the authors of the case report. The two letters include a letter authored by MAPS' Lisa Jerome and Rick Doblin and MDMA/PTSD study principal investigator Michael Mithoefer, and a report of a transient dystonia appearing after Ecstasy use. In their reply to both letters, the authors acknowledge the likely rarity of movement disorders associated with Ecstasy use, but fail to discuss the lack of evidence for a relationship between Ecstasy use and movement disorders.

July 25, 2004. A front page article in the Sunday Baltimore Sun discussed MAPS' MDMA psychotherapy research in a favorable light, illustrated with a photo of Rick Doblin. Of special note is the conclusion, in which Dr. George Ricaurte says that MDMA may one day find a place as an accepted medication. On July 29, the Sun published a clarification to the article.

July 21, 2004. Nature publishes an excellent editorial about the conflict between science and politics at NIDA, using as an example exaggerations of the risks of MDMA by Dr. Alan Leshner, ex-Director of NIDA.

[see link above for much more]


Edited by kilgoretrout, 02 August 2010 - 04:50 PM.


#12 babyseal Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:USA

Posted 02 August 2010 - 05:01 PM

Thanks so much, you guys!

And man, you are good (glad to be joining a forum with such astute people): you were right about this severe reaction being a sign that something else is wrong.

I'm sorry that I forgot to mention it in this post, but it enabled you to show off your knowledge - I am getting over chronic Lyme disease and other tick-borne infections.

On top of that, as I mentioned, I am sensitive to medications in general and I don't recover well from almost anything, perhaps due to low DHEA, being a slow acetylator, chronic fatigue and low levels of antioxidants and energy, etc. I think I need to be cautious about taking anything, since I've also had lengthy negative reactions and drug sensitivities to medications doctors prescribed for me and to OTC medications. The supplements I am taking now are fine, though, but not all supplements are, so I have to be careful. I eat an excellent organic vegetable-heavy diet.

I am looking into the things you all mentioned. Thanks for the threads on serotonin neuron regeneration and ALCAR and free radicals. ALCAR does a lot for me, so I am back to taking that.

My typing has been almost back to normal after I stopped taking DLPA and 5-HTP - maybe something about the ratio or the sudden spikes in NTs was exacerbating the problem.

Instead of direct NT precursors, I am just using some broad-spectrum NT support like daily balanced-ratio B-vitamins, TMG (which I LOVE - great for my mood, and gives you some extra DMT which is interesting), high-dose DHA (>1g daily), and ALCAR.

It's really only been about a week that I've been using these restorative supplements (after not taking anything for a while due to misguided notions that it would be better to let my body figure it out on its own), and I've made a lot of progress, so I think I'll be fine soon. Thanks for all the answers!

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Edited by babyseal, 02 August 2010 - 05:03 PM.


#13 chrono Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:New England

Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:55 PM

Furthermore, numerous more careful subsequent studies of actual typical doses of the correct drug in humans have not been able to find more than minimal deleterious effects.

I'd encourage you to read posts #4 and #19 in the thread serotonin receptor regeneration nootropics. There have been a good number of human neuroimaging and cognition studies in the past 5 years that demonstrate some definite damage cause by this drug. The severity is debatable, but it's a lot worse than many other common drugs.

It's strange that the MAPS analysis of studies doesn't mention anything past 2005; perhaps a little selectiveness in the picture they paint?

#14 babyseal Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:USA

Posted 03 August 2010 - 06:50 PM

Can anyone help me figure this one out -

The typing has gotten much better now that I stopped the DLPA and 5-HTP.

But I think TMG makes the typing bad. If I stop the TMG, as I did for two days, my typing ability goes back to normal, but I've been taking TMG to control some tinnitus, and my tinnitus gets much worse.

I guess I should stop the TMG and do something else for the tinnitus.

I've been using ginkgo and goldenseal for tinnitus and I just got some black cohosh. The tinnitus responded the best to TMG, though.

ALCAR seems to be fine for my typing, and it's great for my mood. Thanks for recommending it. I take it with CoQ10 and resveratrol for some antioxidant protection.

#15 medievil Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Belguim

Posted 03 August 2010 - 07:36 PM

Furthermore, numerous more careful subsequent studies of actual typical doses of the correct drug in humans have not been able to find more than minimal deleterious effects.

I'd encourage you to read posts #4 and #19 in the thread serotonin receptor regeneration nootropics. There have been a good number of human neuroimaging and cognition studies in the past 5 years that demonstrate some definite damage cause by this drug. The severity is debatable, but it's a lot worse than many other common drugs.

It's strange that the MAPS analysis of studies doesn't mention anything past 2005; perhaps a little selectiveness in the picture they paint?

I highly doubt that since its been demonstrated that incidental use isnt associated with long term cognitive problems (study i posted above) and thats exactly what they are doing, so there wouldnt be any reason to leave out any evidence at all.

#16 chrono Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:New England

Posted 03 August 2010 - 08:17 PM

@babyseal: Are there any other things being affected besides typing? i.e. are you having brain fog, trouble finding the right words, or is it purely about motor control?

It's strange that the MAPS analysis of studies doesn't mention anything past 2005; perhaps a little selectiveness in the picture they paint?

I highly doubt that since its been demonstrated that incidental use isnt associated with long term cognitive problems (study i posted above) and thats exactly what they are doing, so there wouldnt be any reason to leave out any evidence at all.

Cognition in novice ecstasy users with minimal exposure to other drugs: a prospective cohort study, published a month before by the same authors, finds that verbal memory was affected in what would probably be a therapeutic dosage range. This possibility, combined with the other human data I summarized, seems like it deserves at least a mention.

As it stands now, the impression they convey is that it's another unfairly maligned drug, with the only evidence of damage being in the studies they have debunked. I guess if they're advocating for re-scheduling/etc it's somewhat understandable, but they know very well that what they say is read more by recreational users than by the almost non-existent clinical practitioners, and not mentioning the evidence about definite neurological and cognitive changes is pretty irresponsible IMO.

#17 Kristjan Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Reykjavík

Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:27 PM

I think you should just stop worrying about this and give yourself time to recover.

If I were you, I wouldn't be taking any cognitive enhancing supplements during this period. Just try to eat healthy and exercise.

You may be very sensitive to the damaging effects of MDMA. For me, it took about 2 years to recover from heavy drug use. You will be okay, eventually, just try and stop worrying about it and keep on living your life.

People saying that MDMA isn't harmful and even beneficial in small doses? ARE YOU CRAZY? MDMA/Ecstacy is a hard drug and is quite often the actual jumping point for people on their way towards a life of misery and addiction.

People have diet from MDMA use, perhaps not many from just one time, but thousands of people have died from the addiction train that followed. Yet more thousands or hundreds of thousands of people have ruined theirs and/or their family's lives.

MDMA is bad, bad, bad. STAY AWAY.
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#18 kilgoretrout Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:07 AM

Cognition in novice ecstasy users with minimal exposure to other drugs: a prospective cohort study, published a month before by the same authors,.


Well it is an amphetamine and certainly will cause neuronal hyper-excitation... mainly the result of free-radical damage caused by dopamine over-exposure in neurons. This can be prevented by large doses of antioxidants prior to the mdma (and probably also other strong stimulants) See:

Do Antioxidants Protect Against
MDMA Hangover, Tolerance, and Neurotoxicity?
http://www.erowid.or..._article3.shtml

Extensive article is good, see especially the references.



About the "Cognition in novice..." paper, does anyone have access to full text? From the wording in the abstract it sounds like they found people on the street in the club scene who said they had never tried mdma, then later compared those who SAID they did it with those who said they did not... "Of these, 58 subjects started using Ecstasy (mean cumulative dose, 3.2 tablets; median cumulative dose, 1.5 tablets)." What exactly does "started using" mean? So the researchers did not provide pure mdma? They did not test the contents of the "tablets"? What else were in them? How do they know what ELSE these people decided to take during their newfound practice of talking pills to get high?


"Differences in cognition between Ecstasy users and Ecstasy-naive subjects were adjusted for differences in cannabis and other recreational drug use." This is a pretty flakey claim. How exactly, with the scientific-sounding accuracy they are trying to give the impression of, did they do that?


"Although the performance of the group of incident Ecstasy users is still within the normal range and the immediate clinical relevance of the observed deficits is limited" I dunno, tepid conclusion... overall rather weak, amateurish research if you ask me.


SEE THIS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19195429


Health Technol Assess. 2009 Jan;13(6):iii-iv, ix-xii, 1-315.

The harmful health effects of recreational ecstasy: a systematic review of observational evidence.

CONCLUSIONS: A broad range of relatively low-quality literature suggests that recreational use of ecstasy is associated with significant deficits in neurocognitive function (particularly immediate and delayed verbal memory) and increased psychopathological symptoms. The clinical significance of the exposure effect in individual cases will be variable but, on average, deficits are likely to be relatively small. Ecstasy is associated with a range of acute harms but appears to be a rare cause of death in isolation.



Still, sounds to me like uncontrolled personal reports of untested "pills" being self-reported, probably by people doing alot of other partying. Gee, the ones who made a habit out of taking pills they got from some dude in the club to get a buzz showed effects of being slightly "burned out". Well, Duh!, Calling Dr. Obvious!


And yes, quite probably it is NOT good for your brain cells, but it seems doubtful the damage is very strong, or any evidence that it is not temporary, and if it helps you in some lasting emotional way, well I just dont see reason to demonize it. Yes, taking large doses several times a month habitually is certainly going to have negative effects. So is abusing caffeine pills. I wouldn't recommend either. But the very occasional and dose-appropriate use of MDMA that one is certain is pure, especially if preceded by antioxidants, I don't think its anything to be too worried about.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 05 August 2010 - 08:22 AM.


#19 chrono Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:New England

Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:14 PM

I deleted some messages from this thread that were only about general drug usage and safety. While such off-topic discussion is permitted in other discussions here, in this case it's undesirable. Let's stay on the topic of neurological health implications and recovery. Thanks!

@kilgore: The article you ask about is free on PubMed.

For some reason, it seems like people resist reading the careful summary of these studies I prepared in the thread I linked to. I think that it answers most of your questions about the possible extent and type of damage, as well as methodology for these kinds of tests. The rest of the thread is valuable as well.

No one's saying the damage is necessarily that severe; what I'm saying is that there is very good evidence showing that some damage occurs, and can last for years. How this plays out in cognition is up to debate.

#20 medievil Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:Belguim

Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:41 PM

@babyseal: Are there any other things being affected besides typing? i.e. are you having brain fog, trouble finding the right words, or is it purely about motor control?

It's strange that the MAPS analysis of studies doesn't mention anything past 2005; perhaps a little selectiveness in the picture they paint?

I highly doubt that since its been demonstrated that incidental use isnt associated with long term cognitive problems (study i posted above) and thats exactly what they are doing, so there wouldnt be any reason to leave out any evidence at all.

Cognition in novice ecstasy users with minimal exposure to other drugs: a prospective cohort study, published a month before by the same authors, finds that verbal memory was affected in what would probably be a therapeutic dosage range.

I havent read the full text's, but i'm confused why the first study found a difference and then another study done LATER by the SAME authors concludes there's no evidence that low doses cause cognitive decline? It doesnt make any sense.

Either way, the damage appears to be very subtle and definatly is not a reason to avoid MDMA from being used therapeutically as the therapeutic benefits are incredible.

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#21 chrono Re: Restore Synaptic Connections, Dopamine after MDMA

  • Location:New England

Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:30 PM

Deleted another post; just to clarify, I'm trying to limit the subject pretty closely to the topic (I know, a strange thing on this forum), and getting rid of posts which are about the general usefulness/benefits/drawbacks/safety/therapeutic value of this substance. Believe me, it's in the best interest of being able to continue such discussions atm.

I havent read the full text's, but i'm confused why the first study found a difference and then another study done LATER by the SAME authors concludes there's no evidence that low doses cause cognitive decline? It doesnt make any sense.

I just read through the discussion section of both papers. Unfortunately they don't reference each other, which is not so strange when you consider the lengthy peer review process for such journals, and their probable reluctance to talk about data that won't be published for perhaps years.

What's important to remember about these abstracts is that, even if it is implied, they can't be taken as a supporting an entirely positive or negative result. The big difference I see is that in the study medievil posted showing no cognitive deficits, the battery only tested working memory, associative memory, and attention. The other study only found a deficit in verbal memory, and none of the other criteria. So it's not that they're at all saying the opposite, but that they tested slightly (yet critically) different areas, and were a little less specific than they should have been in their abstracts.

Edited by chrono, 05 August 2010 - 04:32 PM.





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