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depression help please


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#1 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:20 AM


I feel so blah all of the time. Yes I had a psychotic episode 5 years ago, not now, and I still feel like crap most of the time. I rely on nicotine gum which is now being said can cause oral cancer, especially if you have an open sore/legion, which I don't. Some Fox1 gene thingy.

Anyway, I'm now going to Mass General, again, for treatment. Any luck with anti-depressants? I don't even know where to start because I assume the antidepressants that worked in the past won't necessarily work with this lethargic type of depression.

Supplements that you could recommend would be great too. I now take inositol 15 grams, IP6, Carlsons fish oil, red wine extract, resveratrol 250 mg per day, greens mix, machta powdered green tea with lemon juice to enhance the antioxidant effects, bacopa, beta glutan, lions main, alcar, and am expecting Cognitex, R Lipoic acid, (both from Life Extension Foundations), and magnesium glycinate. And Ubiquniol from LE and D3 and creatine for workouts. And NAC and mk-4 but will switch to better longer lasting mk-7

I take Zyprexa for sleep at 5 mg, and still have sleep problems, but last night I took 350 mg of Lithium Carbonate with bacopa, and 30 mg of melatonin and slept well. I still feel like s**t.

Edited by dfowler, 04 August 2010 - 01:25 AM.


#2 bobdrake12

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:27 AM

dfowler,

Do you work out? I work out about 4 times a week.

Jogging a few miles a day also would help.

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#3 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:31 AM

dfowler,

Do you work out? I work out about 4 times a week.

Jogging a few miles a day also would help.

yes weights and cardio also about 4 times a week. for up to 2 hours often.

#4 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:36 AM

I workout with heavyish weights and enjoy my workouts, I get an endorphin high from the cardio too, but then I come home and feel dreadful.

ok, I tried Zoloft, but don't know if i stayed on long enough. I thought about Remeron and I was using for sleep but stopped working. Morganator suggested noretrypteline plus Zoloft as a potent combo for some.

I"m at a loss.

#5 Application

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:44 AM

With the usual disclaimers about dispensing and receiving medical advise on the internet.... have you tried Wellbutrin? Its among the more stimulating antidepressants- usually much more so than SSRIs or tryciclics . Unfortunately with it being stimulating, it could cause sleep problems. Also psychotherapy, when effective, has been shown to produce positive chemical and structural changes to the brain with minimal to zero side effects.

Edited by Application, 04 August 2010 - 02:45 AM.


#6 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:15 AM

With the usual disclaimers about dispensing and receiving medical advise on the internet.... have you tried Wellbutrin? Its among the more stimulating antidepressants- usually much more so than SSRIs or tryciclics . Unfortunately with it being stimulating, it could cause sleep problems. Also psychotherapy, when effective, has been shown to produce positive chemical and structural changes to the brain with minimal to zero side effects.

I tried Wellbutrin, I must confess to not staying on it that long, so maybe I missed seeing if it helps.

#7 Logan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:30 AM

With the usual disclaimers about dispensing and receiving medical advise on the internet.... have you tried Wellbutrin? Its among the more stimulating antidepressants- usually much more so than SSRIs or tryciclics . Unfortunately with it being stimulating, it could cause sleep problems. Also psychotherapy, when effective, has been shown to produce positive chemical and structural changes to the brain with minimal to zero side effects.

I tried Wellbutrin, I must confess to not staying on it that long, so maybe I missed seeing if it helps.


Wellbutrin should have you feeling better in just a few weeks if it is effective. I bet you gave it a long enough go.

#8 Kristjan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:56 AM

Antidepressants can take several weeks and possibly even a few months to reach their full potential.

Zoloft did wonders for me, but I think I've found my perfect combination right now with 50mg Zoloft + 400mg SAMe.

I think you should see a psychiatrist and have him subscribe you something, and then stay on it long enough to see if it actually works or not. Personally I'm not a big fan of psychotherapy, but if the drugs aren't helping then maybe you should look into it. You might also want to look into the psychotherapy first, if it's your kind of thing, since it's obviously the better choice to be medication free :)

#9 gregandbeaker

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:29 PM

I haven't found an SSRI that worked for lethargic type depression. They all seem to do a good job of dealing with my GAD but are not effective for any type of depression for me. However the general consensus is that while they may start working after two to three weeks, it really takes up to eight weeks to reach a therapeutic level. The thing that did work was weekly visits with a psychologist and practicing cognitive behavioral therapy. That eventually lead to practicing mindfulness and then yoga, which along with weight training and really learning to at least every once in a while "live fully in the moment" broke the chain of downward spirals. For me at least it wasn't a serotonin or norepinephrine or dopamine issue, it was having a brain that loved to dwell in the past and fret about the future instead of living in the moment.

#10 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:18 PM

I haven't found an SSRI that worked for lethargic type depression. They all seem to do a good job of dealing with my GAD but are not effective for any type of depression for me. However the general consensus is that while they may start working after two to three weeks, it really takes up to eight weeks to reach a therapeutic level. The thing that did work was weekly visits with a psychologist and practicing cognitive behavioral therapy. That eventually lead to practicing mindfulness and then yoga, which along with weight training and really learning to at least every once in a while "live fully in the moment" broke the chain of downward spirals. For me at least it wasn't a serotonin or norepinephrine or dopamine issue, it was having a brain that loved to dwell in the past and fret about the future instead of living in the moment.

Sure I have plenty of regret type of worries and existential worry about death and so on, but it's mostly chemical depression, which doesn't make the real life depression any easier. I know there will one day be a drug for me or supplement, if not already out there.

#11 mattymo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:49 PM

Sure I have plenty of regret type of worries and existential worry about death and so on, but it's mostly chemical depression, which doesn't make the real life depression any easier. I know there will one day be a drug for me or supplement, if not already out there.


This is purely subjective, but I've started noticing lately that there is a huge correlation between where my mind is at and the mood I'm in. The times I'm happiest are when I have lots of free attention and can enjoy the present moment. In my opinion, attributing your depression to a chemical problem is freeing you of a whole lot of responsibility. My advice would be to take an active role in solving this problem. By active I mean living day to day life aware of your thoughts, specifically being attentitive to when the negative thought patterns come up, and not perpetuating them. Obsessing over this whole thing isn't going to bring about a solution and more than likely is exasberating your symptoms. Depression is nothing more than long held thought patterns finally coming to bear fruit on reality. Medication is certainly going to be necessary, but no amount of medication is going to help if the downward spiral of thoughts continue. Again, this is all just my opinion but I'm speaking from personal experience and feel I have a pretty good grasp on how this "disease" operates. Good luck man.

Edited by mattymo, 04 August 2010 - 04:50 PM.

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#12 tintinet

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:23 PM

"Again, this is all just my opinion but I'm speaking from personal experience and feel I have a pretty good grasp on how this "disease" operates."

I'm glad you have it all figured out.



"The times I'm happiest are when I have lots of free attention and can enjoy the present moment."

Does this mean "when I'm happy, I'm happy"?

#13 mattymo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:31 PM

"Again, this is all just my opinion but I'm speaking from personal experience and feel I have a pretty good grasp on how this "disease" operates."

I'm glad you have it all figured out.



"The times I'm happiest are when I have lots of free attention and can enjoy the present moment."

Does this mean "when I'm happy, I'm happy"?


I guess I missed the part where having a pretty good grasp on something became synonymous with having it all figured out...?

Maybe the second sentence could have been reworded: "The times I'm happiest are when I have lots of free attention to enjoy the present moment, rather than having all my energy drained by fixating on negative thought patterns."

I thought it was fairly clear to begin with...not really sure what was confusing but maybe you can elaborate.

#14 tintinet

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:40 PM

"Again, this is all just my opinion but I'm speaking from personal experience and feel I have a pretty good grasp on how this "disease" operates."

I'm glad you have it all figured out.



"The times I'm happiest are when I have lots of free attention and can enjoy the present moment."

Does this mean "when I'm happy, I'm happy"?


I guess I missed the part where having a pretty good grasp on something became synonymous with having it all figured out...?

Maybe the second sentence could have been reworded: "The times I'm happiest are when I have lots of free attention to enjoy the present moment, rather than having all my energy drained by fixating on negative thought patterns."

I thought it was fairly clear to begin with...not really sure what was confusing but maybe you can elaborate.



I think my point is this: certainly your mood, attention, and thoughts will be positive when you are happy. I don't think that for depressed people, thinking happy thoughts is always option, no matter how much they'd like to choose it.
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#15 Kristjan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:13 PM

I think my point is this: certainly your mood, attention, and thoughts will be positive when you are happy. I don't think that for depressed people, thinking happy thoughts is always option, no matter how much they'd like to choose it.


I agree completely.

Telling a person who is actually depressed to start thinking happy thoughts and stop being depressed is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

Maybe cognitive behavioural therapy could help, I've been in cognitive behavioural therapy for social anxiety and it helped quite a bit, even though I didn't finish the therapy due to cost.

I often do wonder though what is the actual cause of depression. It doesn't make any sense to me, from a paleolithic point of view, that a big part of the population would be depressed and anxious all the time. I know that diet and exercise can help a lot but they aren't enough for me, I'd just get depressed again and stop exercising and eating healthy. Maybe we've been permanently damaged from something related to the environment, maybe it even started happening as early as in the womb, or maybe humans just aren't made for living in a high-tech environment like today. I'd sure like to see science answer that question some day soon.

#16 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:26 PM

I disagree with the poster who said take responsibility, in that, IT'S CHEMICAL DAMMIT! How's that? Inotherwords I can't will myself happiness, non-lethargy, lots of energy etc. I've obviously tried and that's why I eat well, take supplements and exercise. This poster is falling into the age old trap of "pick yourself up by your bootstraps," as my dad likes to say. Obviously I'm trying my best, but chemically my brain, well, sucks!

To put it really simply, imagine wanting so bad to feel good, thinking happy thoughts or thoughts that would normally inspire a person, but feeling terrible despite, and only wanting to lie down no matter how hard one tries?

This is OFTEN the case with me, however, when I do feel ok I do tons of stuff, including working part time, but I'm still no where near the level of functioning I should be.

Edited by dfowler, 04 August 2010 - 10:35 PM.


#17 mattymo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:35 PM

I also agree that telling someone who is depressed to think happy thoughts is rediculous. If you'll carefully read through my post, you'll notice that it isn't saying anything of the sort. Instead, I said it's important to be aware of our thought patterns, specifically when negative thoughts arise. My own experience has been that whenever these negative thought stories arise, I tend to get fixated on them, and it perpetuates an endless stream of more negative thoughts and emotions. It never freaking ends. This fixation does nothing but exasperate the symptoms. The only time this disease will ever end is NOW. So, instead of giving all hese self-destructive thoughts more energy, maybe try something different for a change? I'm not pushing some magic one-day cure-all, but something that will defnitely bear fruit if used in conjuction with appropriate medication. You're more than welcome to reflect with thoughts from your own experience. Depression sucks and I hope that those suffering can find solutions sooner rather than later. Take care

#18 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:39 PM

I also agree that telling someone who is depressed to think happy thoughts is rediculous. If you'll carefully read through my post, you'll notice that it isn't saying anything of the sort. Instead, I said it's important to be aware of our thought patterns, specifically when negative thoughts arise. My own experience has been that whenever these negative thought stories arise, I tend to get fixated on them, and it perpetuates an endless stream of more negative thoughts and emotions. It never freaking ends. This fixation does nothing but exasperate the symptoms. The only time this disease will ever end is NOW. So, instead of giving all hese self-destructive thoughts more energy, maybe try something different for a change? I'm not pushing some magic one-day cure-all, but something that will defnitely bear fruit if used in conjuction with appropriate medication. You're more than welcome to reflect with thoughts from your own experience. Depression sucks and I hope that those suffering can find solutions sooner rather than later. Take care

That sounds more reasonable. But keep in mind, one day we'll have the psychotropic drugs to alleviate even the worst chemical pain, however there IS a fine line between real life existential and other things that gets us down versus a more purely chemical imbalance. So it would be foolish to have a society of perpetually happy, (and deluded), population, especially living in this primitive time where there are so many terrible things out there, death being just one of them. :sad:

But if someone wants so badly to live his/her life, despite knowing the pitfalls of life, there should be a drug/s, or treatment/s to get him/her back to functioning like most successful people do. Of course there are those who are living in less than optimal states of mind, but I think we owe it to humanity to get us all at a pretty "ok" level of mental health asap!

Edited by dfowler, 04 August 2010 - 10:41 PM.


#19 bacopa

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:45 PM

Other symptoms I have are anhedonia, severe irritability that often results in extreme bouts of yelling at my sister, and constant obsessive worry over diseases, usually cancer, and also just a general extreme of uncomfortableness that I can't deal with.

#20 Kristjan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:51 PM

I also agree that telling someone who is depressed to think happy thoughts is rediculous. If you'll carefully read through my post, you'll notice that it isn't saying anything of the sort. Instead, I said it's important to be aware of our thought patterns, specifically when negative thoughts arise. My own experience has been that whenever these negative thought stories arise, I tend to get fixated on them, and it perpetuates an endless stream of more negative thoughts and emotions. It never freaking ends. This fixation does nothing but exasperate the symptoms. The only time this disease will ever end is NOW. So, instead of giving all hese self-destructive thoughts more energy, maybe try something different for a change? I'm not pushing some magic one-day cure-all, but something that will defnitely bear fruit if used in conjuction with appropriate medication. You're more than welcome to reflect with thoughts from your own experience. Depression sucks and I hope that those suffering can find solutions sooner rather than later. Take care


You're completely right about those negative thought patterns, but personally when I feel depressed I don't really have much control over my thoughts.

I do believe this is something that can be trained though, maybe under the supervision of a skilled professional.

My first psychiatrist that I met many many years ago decided to put me on medication right away, which worked, so I haven't had the need for other things. But I do know that whenever I quit my medication, several weeks later depression takes hold and there's pretty much nothing I can do about it except start back on medication.

Obviously the better choice, if possible, would be the medication free route :)

Didn't mean to be rude, sorry :o

#21 Kristjan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:53 PM

Other symptoms I have are anhedonia, severe irritability that often results in extreme bouts of yelling at my sister, and constant obsessive worry over diseases, usually cancer, and also just a general extreme of uncomfortableness that I can't deal with.


How long did you stay on Zoloft and what dosage did you take?

#22 mattymo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:57 PM

I also agree that telling someone who is depressed to think happy thoughts is rediculous. If you'll carefully read through my post, you'll notice that it isn't saying anything of the sort. Instead, I said it's important to be aware of our thought patterns, specifically when negative thoughts arise. My own experience has been that whenever these negative thought stories arise, I tend to get fixated on them, and it perpetuates an endless stream of more negative thoughts and emotions. It never freaking ends. This fixation does nothing but exasperate the symptoms. The only time this disease will ever end is NOW. So, instead of giving all hese self-destructive thoughts more energy, maybe try something different for a change? I'm not pushing some magic one-day cure-all, but something that will defnitely bear fruit if used in conjuction with appropriate medication. You're more than welcome to reflect with thoughts from your own experience. Depression sucks and I hope that those suffering can find solutions sooner rather than later. Take care

That sounds more reasonable. But keep in mind, one day we'll have the psychotropic drugs to alleviate even the worst chemical pain, however there IS a fine line between real life existential and other things that gets us down versus a more purely chemical imbalance. So it would be foolish to have a society of perpetually happy, (and deluded), population, especially living in this primitive time where there are so many terrible things out there, death being just one of them. :sad:

But if someone wants so badly to live his/her life, despite knowing the pitfalls of life, there should be a drug/s, or treatment/s to get him/her back to functioning like most successful people do. Of course there are those who are living in less than optimal states of mind, but I think we owe it to humanity to get us all at a pretty "ok" level of mental health asap!


First of all, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're having these issues. I've been there myself and I'm still dealing with some issues today. I know how deteriorating to the spirit poor mental health can be. If I may bring some things to your attention. First, you're talking about chemical imbalances as if they were an inherent reality, rather than a model of explaining how the mind works. All of science acts in this way: its just a model, constructed to explain whats going on and attempt to diagnose and treat based on that model. Many in the east and/or third world countries/ancient tribes/native americans would use a completely different model to diagnose and treat, and in many instances in fact treat the problem more effectively. That being said, choosing to treat this problem strictly from the stance of "its a chemical imbalance!" is, in my opinion, negating many other factors that could be contributing to this disease that aren't currently recognized by western science. You say: "But keep in mind, one day we'll have the psychotropic drugs to alleviate even the worst chemical pain, however there IS a fine line between real life existential and other things that gets us down versus a more purely chemical imbalance." My question is, what do you think causes chemical imbalances in the first place? My hypothesis is that its obviously these existential problems and other things that get us down. It would be interested to observe a study where neurotransmitters were measured in response to long term stress. I'm pretty sure there would be a chemical imbalance as a result. You say: "But keep in mind, one day we'll have the psychotropic drugs to alleviate even the worst chemical pain". I beg to differ. Ever heard of karma? The law of cause and effect is as natural as the law of gravity and what goes up must certainly come down. I could be wrong but I'm not aware of any pain medications that in turn do not have a withdrawal period. My point being that a bulletproof medication like you're describing more than likely could not be created. Things are never that cut and dry and there is A TON going on under the surface of things that act upon the body and mind that you have absolutely no idea about. Thats why I gave my original advice, and I urge you consider approaching this whole thing from different angles. I believe that you have much more potential to see results this way. Either way I hope you get well soon. Later
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#23 mattymo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:07 PM

I also agree that telling someone who is depressed to think happy thoughts is rediculous. If you'll carefully read through my post, you'll notice that it isn't saying anything of the sort. Instead, I said it's important to be aware of our thought patterns, specifically when negative thoughts arise. My own experience has been that whenever these negative thought stories arise, I tend to get fixated on them, and it perpetuates an endless stream of more negative thoughts and emotions. It never freaking ends. This fixation does nothing but exasperate the symptoms. The only time this disease will ever end is NOW. So, instead of giving all hese self-destructive thoughts more energy, maybe try something different for a change? I'm not pushing some magic one-day cure-all, but something that will defnitely bear fruit if used in conjuction with appropriate medication. You're more than welcome to reflect with thoughts from your own experience. Depression sucks and I hope that those suffering can find solutions sooner rather than later. Take care


You're completely right about those negative thought patterns, but personally when I feel depressed I don't really have much control over my thoughts.

I do believe this is something that can be trained though, maybe under the supervision of a skilled professional.

My first psychiatrist that I met many many years ago decided to put me on medication right away, which worked, so I haven't had the need for other things. But I do know that whenever I quit my medication, several weeks later depression takes hold and there's pretty much nothing I can do about it except start back on medication.

Obviously the better choice, if possible, would be the medication free route :)

Didn't mean to be rude, sorry :o


Hey man, no offense taken, don't worry. This site has helped me a lot and honestly I really want to do my best to help others. I'm offering the best advice I can in hopes it will help someone. I am definitely under the belief that we have absolutely ZERO control over our thoughts. Even for those who aren't depressed, thoughts just appear. Thats the reality. In those who are depressed, negative thoughts appear...in those who aren't, positive thoughts appear. You'll notice though, and this is through years of habit, that there is a chronic fixation on these thought stories, and our world seems to be shaped by this fixation and resultant belief. It just so happens that in those who are depressed, the fixation is tenfold and combined with the negativity, it turns from bad to worse fast. Thats why I'm advocating staying present through all the bullshit that comes up. Making a habit out of this has the potential to dispel this negativity. I'm not giving a definitive timeframe, but will certainly be more fruitful than running off with the mind on its rampage. Check with your own experience and see if it works for you. Also, what I'm talking about is very similar to meditation. If you're looking for some scientific-based evidence, there's loads on that avenue I'm sure you could find.

#24 bacopa

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:06 AM

First of all, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're having these issues. I've been there myself and I'm still dealing with some issues today. I know how deteriorating to the spirit poor mental health can be. If I may bring some things to your attention. First, you're talking about chemical imbalances as if they were an inherent reality, rather than a model of explaining how the mind works. All of science acts in this way: its just a model, constructed to explain whats going on and attempt to diagnose and treat based on that model. Many in the east and/or third world countries/ancient tribes/native americans would use a completely different model to diagnose and treat, and in many instances in fact treat the problem more effectively. That being said, choosing to treat this problem strictly from the stance of "its a chemical imbalance!" is, in my opinion, negating many other factors that could be contributing to this disease that aren't currently recognized by western science. You say: "But keep in mind, one day we'll have the psychotropic drugs to alleviate even the worst chemical pain, however there IS a fine line between real life existential and other things that gets us down versus a more purely chemical imbalance." My question is, what do you think causes chemical imbalances in the first place? My hypothesis is that its obviously these existential problems and other things that get us down. It would be interested to observe a study where neurotransmitters were measured in response to long term stress. I'm pretty sure there would be a chemical imbalance as a result. You say: "But keep in mind, one day we'll have the psychotropic drugs to alleviate even the worst chemical pain". I beg to differ. Ever heard of karma? The law of cause and effect is as natural as the law of gravity and what goes up must certainly come down. I could be wrong but I'm not aware of any pain medications that in turn do not have a withdrawal period. My point being that a bulletproof medication like you're describing more than likely could not be created. Things are never that cut and dry and there is A TON going on under the surface of things that act upon the body and mind that you have absolutely no idea about. Thats why I gave my original advice, and I urge you consider approaching this whole thing from different angles. I believe that you have much more potential to see results this way. Either way I hope you get well soon. Later

No, I agree with many, if not most cases you're right. In my particular case I had a terrible psychotic break which wreaked havoc on my brain. It has been described as neurotransmitters firing all over the place, and psychosis can be a poison to the brain.

I was fine previously, then during just one week I went from "ok" to couldn't get out of bed and could barely comprehend most anything. Obviously that is a purely chemical problem, and I feel uncomfortable not being able to back up with real science what went and is still going on in my brain, but I can assure you my brain was damaged as a result. In schizoprhenics, for example, some of them lost up to 25% of their gray matter, the stuff responsible for all thought, and this was over a period of like one year. I'm too "apathetic" to look for the article right now, but psychosis can be devastating to the brain. And with me my cognition, mood, energy level, sleep, and overall well being were severely effected.

I guarantee you, with all the trauma of the last 5 years, all the let downs, the times when I could have been having fun, working, or just enjoying anything, if I had a magic pill to fix it all, I would sometimes look back and say shit I wasted so much time, but I'd be so happy I'd be doing everything and appreciating life to its fullest. I've already come a long way, and DO have days when I'm really appreciative, motivated, and feel good enough to have that will. And yes, many people who have gone through what I have, even if totally cured may not be able to get back to normal living, but somehow I just don't feel like I'd be looking back or traumatized for long, if at all.

I am lucky to have a very very supportive family, my mom did pass away and it was terrible, and I am emotionally blunted from feeling, grieving for her, but I was raised to be pro-active and love life, and I have some good friends to help support me as well. But if whenever I DO feel good, and like I said, it does happen, I revel in the moments and go out, even by myself.

But I think for most people who aren't as resilient as I am life can cause just as severe a depression as I have. And I won't lie, if I was feeling a 10 out of a possible 10 and everyone was miserable, (as people often are,) around me, it would bring me down to like a 9 :cool:

edit: yes humans are very spiritual creatures, but modern science has taught us, shown us so many cases where tweaking a chemical depressed state with a med or supplement has done wonders. The movie Awakenings with Robin Williams and I think Deniro showed a case of a man who was catatonic, (I forget what his illness actually was,) but I think it was LDOPA or some dopamine derivative that literally woke him out of a immobile, catatonic state to normal. That's an extreme example. But spiritually, yes I sometimes feel like I've really taken a beating, and I do talk therapy for that and have done CBT, dialectic therapy, and even tried Electro Convulsive Therapy. But in my case I would take FULL advantage of a good mood state, and if my cognition improved more, (it has substantially,) then I'd be reading books again, as opposed to just online stuff.

Edited by chrono, 05 August 2010 - 12:04 PM.
quote trimming


#25 mattymo

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:55 AM

No, I agree with many, if not most cases you're right. In my particular case I had a terrible psychotic break which wreaked havoc on my brain. It has been described as neurotransmitters firing all over the place, and psychosis can be a poison to the brain.

I was fine previously, then during just one week I went from "ok" to couldn't get out of bed and could barely comprehend most anything. Obviously that is a purely chemical problem, and I feel uncomfortable not being able to back up with real science what went and is still going on in my brain, but I can assure you my brain was damaged as a result. In schizoprhenics, for example, some of them lost up to 25% of their gray matter, the stuff responsible for all thought, and this was over a period of like one year. I'm too "apathetic" to look for the article right now, but psychosis can be devastating to the brain. And with me my cognition, mood, energy level, sleep, and overall well being were severely effected.

I guarantee you, with all the trauma of the last 5 years, all the let downs, the times when I could have been having fun, working, or just enjoying anything, if I had a magic pill to fix it all, I would sometimes look back and say shit I wasted so much time, but I'd be so happy I'd be doing everything and appreciating life to its fullest. I've already come a long way, and DO have days when I'm really appreciative, motivated, and feel good enough to have that will. And yes, many people who have gone through what I have, even if totally cured may not be able to get back to normal living, but somehow I just don't feel like I'd be looking back or traumatized for long, if at all.

I am lucky to have a very very supportive family, my mom did pass away and it was terrible, and I am emotionally blunted from feeling, grieving for her, but I was raised to be pro-active and love life, and I have some good friends to help support me as well. But if whenever I DO feel good, and like I said, it does happen, I revel in the moments and go out, even by myself.

But I think for most people who aren't as resilient as I am life can cause just as severe a depression as I have. And I won't lie, if I was feeling a 10 out of a possible 10 and everyone was miserable, (as people often are,) around me, it would bring me down to like a 9 :cool:

edit: yes humans are very spiritual creatures, but modern science has taught us, shown us so many cases where tweaking a chemical depressed state with a med or supplement has done wonders. The movie Awakenings with Robin Williams and I think Deniro showed a case of a man who was catatonic, (I forget what his illness actually was,) but I think it was LDOPA or some dopamine derivative that literally woke him out of a immobile, catatonic state to normal. That's an extreme example. But spiritually, yes I sometimes feel like I've really taken a beating, and I do talk therapy for that and have done CBT, dialectic therapy, and even tried Electro Convulsive Therapy. But in my case I would take FULL advantage of a good mood state, and if my cognition improved more, (it has substantially,) then I'd be reading books again, as opposed to just online stuff.


I'm sorry to hear about your mom passing, that has got to be very difficult. That kind of stuff can be devastating to anyone, regardless of their mindstate. That brings me back to my point about the gazillion things that are going on that you have no idea about...you said: " was fine previously, then during just one week I went from "ok" to couldn't get out of bed and could barely comprehend most anything. Obviously that is a purely chemical problem". In my opinion there had to be some sort of stressor to knock the chemicals out of homeostasis. Things don't just become unbalanced for no reason. (cause and effect) Whatever that stressor was, it is beyond the scope of anyone to guess at this point, but I think it's safe to that this wasn't a one-time car-accident-type deal and more likely a culmination of things going on either consciously or subconsciously. I can really relate to where you're coming from...this may be off the point but about a year and a half ago I woke up one morning after swallowing an entire bottle of 5-htp along with several very high quality ecstasy pills to find most of short term memory gone as well as a mild-case of long-term amnesia. I convinved myself (through the process of fixation and belief in a recurrent thought pattern:) that I was permanently damaged and was going to suffer the effects for the rest of my life. This belief persisted for a while until finally I entertained the possibility that this story I was believing in my head about being scarred for life certainly wasn't helping the problem. When I finally stopped giving the damn story so much energy and momentum, things improved. By no means was it a magic cure, but a different outlook coupled with persistence and a healthy regime has me back to a state of mind I thought for sure I would never experience again. It's been said many times before but the brain and body have a remarkable, no miraculous abilities to heal themselves. This has been well documented many times and I'm sure you could find many stories around verifying this. The reason I replied to your post in the first place was because how much I could empathize with your situation and how apparent it was to me the self-defeated attitude you were adopting. I hope I'm not beginning to sound like a tree hugging new age law-of-attraction guru, but a lot of that ideal definitely holds weight. So, please take note of the stories about yourself you are choosing to adopt and maybe try not giving them so much weight next go around. I can tell you've definitely put a lot into this recovery, so continue on that path, and maybe with a different mindset you can start to achieve some breakthroughs. I know in my experience that this held true. If you want more information on how stories ARENT reality, then PM me and I'd be happy to point you towards some awesome shit along that avenue. Peace

Edited by chrono, 05 August 2010 - 12:05 PM.


#26 bacopa

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:17 AM

No what you said makes sense. I didn't include that I had severe OCD growing up, ruminations and compulsions, don't feel like going into it. But I've kept that obsessiveness into my 30's...ugh. So when I was unable to get out of bed for about 3 years, only to buy food and smoke cigarettes I thought I was going to die with a deluded mindset I'm too embarrassed to talk about :blush:

But now I obsess over those 4 to 5 years of fairly hard smoking up to a pack and a half at times, and well, I'm literally wired for worry despite my primary care telling me I'm low risk for cigarette related cancers, and all the shit I've read on statistics, studies and smoking...ugh.

So, yes, I should have explained more about my predispositions to worry obsessively and my ultra sensitive nature. Yes I try very hard to have a strong frame of mind, but I go into a fetal position when I have a physical symptom that makes me think, cancer.

When my cognition was so bad that I couldn't really read and comprehend I was sure I had Early Onset Alzheimer's. At one point my brain felt so screwed up, (I can't really describe it but it was a physical feeling) I was sure I had a brain tumor. So I'm a bit of a hypochondriac, but in all honesty, it's the symptoms that have been SO severe that brought on all the worry. The only reason I smoked during that time period was because it was the only thing that felt pleasurable. I quit over a year and a half ago, and now I'm done with the nicotine gum which I've been on and off with for about a year.

So fyi, I'm taking 10 mg of Lexapro, I have some left over and will tell my Pdoc to keep me on it to see if it works, might as well get a head start. And I'm taking 5mg of Zyprexa for mood and sleep, and that IS being prescribed. I'm hoping that will help some. And maybe the 300 mg of lithium could theoretically help, but is probably well under a therapeutic range.

But you're obviously a nice guy and I thank you for your help. ;)

edit: my mom was my best friend and I actually revel in the times when I have enough emotion to cry, but my emotions are very blunted, in some ways like feeling sadness.

Edited by dfowler, 05 August 2010 - 01:19 AM.


#27 mattymo

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:39 AM

I definitely can relate to the emotional bluntness. Feeling terrible is fantastic compared to feeling nothing at all. From reading your posts, d, I'm kind of wondering what came first, the chicken or the egg, know what I mean? Stress wreaks so much havoc on the body it's incredible. That being said, I'm not convinced that there is any trauma that indicates irreparable damage when it comes to the body. And I can guarantee you that you will recover from all this shit you're going through. I really think it would be a good idea to get into some meditation as well as therapy. Stay open to everything, medical and otherwise, and you'll be better in no time. You're a good guy, don't be so hard on yourself.

#28 MoodyBlue

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:54 AM

If you have a serotonin deficiency, I'd recommend LEF's Optimized Tryptopure Plus rather than an SSRI. Reuptake inhibitors increase neurotransmitters in the synapse but it results in a degraded quality of neurotransmitter because the reuptake process is needed to reinforce them after they've delivered a message. Here's an article which explains how this particular product delivers more tryptophan to the brain: http://search.lef.or...d=tryptopure%20. Also, to balance brain chemistry more, try PharmaGaba. See this video: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Y455O9NLPuA.

You'll have way more creatine energy if you're own liver is making the creatine. You achieve this by taking Betaine Anhydrous and Glycocyamine. You will also feel less fatigued post workouts. I would only do this for the heavy work outs, and not the light work outs or definitely not while not working out. The reason why is because raising your creatine levels this way temporarily raises your cholesterol level as well, and you don't want that to be a continuous everyday thing. Here's info on Glycocyamine: http://purebulk.com/glycocyamine, and here's Betaine Anhydrous: http://purebulk.com/...e-anhydrous-tmg.

For detoxing your body try BioRay's NDF (nanonized cilantro and chlorella extract) with Liver Life. Gotta have the Liver Life to keep the elimination pathways in the liver and kidneys drained. They can get clogged up during a detox phase. Toxicity in your body can lead to lethargy. From my experience NDF works best when fasting at the same time. Throw in a several day fast with NDF and Liver Life every few weeks after you've worked up to maximum dose.

I just noticed that in another post of yours you said you screwed up your health with a former smoking habit. Same here. I quit over 6 yrs. ago. I'm still working on eliminating the toxic build up. In Rag Kurzweil and Terry Grossman's book "Fantastic Vogage", it says that 50% of causcasians, 50% of asians, and 1/3 of blacks are born with a GSTM1 null genotype. GSTM1 is necessary to clear hydrocarbons from the body and tobacco smoke is full of hydrocarbons, so I'm guessing I have a null genotype and my tissues are saturated with hydrocarbons. I could also have null genotypes for some of the other GST enzymes as well as some of the other 100s of enzymes involved in self detoxification. Since the toxins in the tobacco smoke also probably caused you to develop some degree of fattieness in your liver, you can undo that by using polyenyhposphtidylcholine. See this article for a description of how it works: http://www.mindandmu...98. Hepatopro and PhosChol 900 are 2 brands I know of.

Edited by MoodyBlue, 05 August 2010 - 02:37 AM.


#29 bacopa

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:02 AM

If you have a serotonin deficiency, I'd recommend LEF's Optimized Tryptopure Plus rather than an SSRI. Reuptake inhibitors increase neurotransmitters in the synapse but it results in a degraded quality of neurotransmitter because the reuptake process is needed to reinforce them after they've delivered a message. Here's an article which explains how this particular product delivers more tryptophan to the brain: http://search.lef.or...ord=tryptopure . Also, to balance brain chemistry more, try PharmaGaba. See this video: .

You'll have way more creatine energy if you're own liver is making the creatine. You achieve this by taking Betaine Anhydrous and Glycocyamine.

Thanks! I'm considering buying the Trytopure plus that article is very informative. But that's the thing we don't have a way of measuring neurotransmitter levels yet, at least I don't think so.

Edited by dfowler, 05 August 2010 - 02:17 AM.


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#30 MoodyBlue

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:40 AM

See my edited post above "dfowler". There's more valuable info there which might help you.




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