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Opinions wanted re: rec.drugs.smart post


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#1 scottl

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 09:49 AM


I'd like to get people's opinions on this post from a recent thread: "piracetam for beginners" from rec.drugs.smart

He (Michael McDonnough) sells a supp which contains piracetam, chocamine, taurine, 5-htp, DMAE, ALCAR, lecithin and 7-keto DHEA


---------------------------------------------------
...I might add to someone new to racetams that you want to increase all
of the precursor elements for all the extra neurotransmitters you will
be making better use of. Take a Nootropic Complex that includes all of
the major nuerotransmitter precursors in it or buy them all seperate
and blend them yourself.

Michael McDonnough
Enhancement Technology Co.
http://www.enhancement-technology.com
-------------------------------------------------------

I replied:

Michael,

"Take...all of the major nuerotransmitter precursors"

OK well I've heard of the importance of a choline source but why the need for other precursors? One could take e.g.
tyrosine (but why?) as a dopamine precursor. What else?

Thanks.

Scott
-----------------------------------------------------------



Michael McDonnough Sep 27, 7:39 pm show options New!
From: micha...@enhancement-technology.com (Michael McDonnough)
Date:27 Sep 2004 19:39:07 -0700
Local: Mon, Sep 27 2004 7:39 pm

My research team members all seemed to suffer a lack in one or more of
the other major neurotranimitters after prolonged use of Piracetam.
The most noticable was a drop in serotonin. We added 5-HTP tryptophan
to our regimen and these symptoms were gone in all of our team
members. We have since added Chocamine to our mix and this provides
plenty of phenylalanine and tyrosine and cannabanoid-related
compounds.

I have some first hand experience since I take the formula every day
and so do all of my friends and associates as well as my research team
members.

Having a full compliment of neurotransimtter precursor elements in our
formula makes the Piracetam work a lot better than with just some
choline added.

I think that Piracetam's well known ability to increase circulation of
brain fluid increases the synthesis and also the re-uptake of all of
the neurotransmitters not just acetylcholine.

I am sure we all suffered from a lack of serotonin long enough to
realize the change when we started supplimentation of 5-HTP and then
to balance this we started taking the Chocamine which has a nice mix
of precursor elements as well as chemicals that slow the deactivation
of the bodies natural cannabanoids and those that we take in with
Chocamine.

Here is a reference to a study of the relationship between serotonin
and noradrenaline levels in sleep in rodents.
http://www.pubmedcen...gi?artid=277838

Here is LEF on the subject:
http://www.lef.org/p...prtcl-089.shtml

Loss of this delicate balance is likely responsible for a lot of
people in depression conditions. If their serotonin is increased with
SSRI drugs and they are still not helped then likley they will be
given drugs to slow noradrenaline re-uptake.

I think to approach this from a food suppliment direction is a
superior method but is it not an expensive drug treatment that a MD
can prescribe. Some people do not know how good they can feel because
they have settled for a lot less because this is the best they could
hope to obtain.

Use our Nootropic and Transhuman search engine some time and you will
see a lot of the informtion behind my thinking on this. I put all of
the sites I used in my research into this subject in our own search
engine for quick access to the info. We spider the main Nootropic info
sites every week to keep it updated with the latest research.

http://www.neuro-fx....earch/search.pl

Feel free to add Nootropic info sites you do not find in the search
engine. I review all entries but if it is a non competition info site
and has important Nootropic research info I will add it to the
database and we will crawl it every week for you.

Michael McDonnough

#2 scottl

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 10:03 AM

Another post with similar info:


Michael McDonnough Sep 15, 11:21 pm

It is my experience and that of my research team that most of the
nootropics on the market increase the levels of production of the
major neurotransmitters and also increase the turn over or reuptake
and or breakdown of these elements as well if the precursors are
available for their continued synthesis.

This means in general that the neurotransimtter levels might increase
but they are removed or broken down more quickly as well...

Vinpocetine reduces the level of neurotransmitters after a time if
there is not a sufficient supply of the needed precursor elements to
further the increased synthesis.

We include in our formulation for our Nootropic complex Neuro-FX a
certain amount of tryptophan and also a larger amount of 5-HTP
tryptophan to curb this effect and increase the levels of serotonin
along with nearly all of the other neurotransmitters.

We found that most brain formulas lack this important element and have
overcome this problem in our formulation.

To answer your question in simple terms; No vinpocetine does not raise
the level of serotonin but might in fact reduce it over time due to
increased fluid flow in the brain if there is not sufficient precursor
elements to make more and do it much faster.

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#3

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 10:13 AM

I read these posts among others on the rec.drugs.smart newsgroup, I have no strong opinion either way.

However his nootropic mix does not impress me.

Dealing with this quote though:

We have since added Chocamine to our mix and this provides
plenty of phenylalanine and tyrosine and cannabanoid-related
compounds.


I did not know that Chocamine can be used to create Phenylalanine, and I am skeptical about that claim. Also I've heard about uncomfortable side effects relating to Chocamine (aside from it being illegal in Canada if I recall), the side effects may not be very harmful but it seems they are greater than that incurred by other nootropics.

Instead why did he not choose to add DL-Phenylalanine (DLPA) which is quite cheap in powder form, and add that to his multi-nootropic product.

My research team members all seemed to suffer a lack in one or more of
the other major neurotranimitters after prolonged use of Piracetam.


I cannot deny this claim, but I unaware of such neurotransmitter deficits relating to Piracetam aside from possibly acetylcholine deficits.

That said it can't hurt to supplement with the precursors of those other neurotransmitters, DLPA will cover some of those bases, as well as your standard choline supplement, beyond that I am not sure.

#4 lynx

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 04:59 PM

We have since added Chocamine to our mix and this provides
plenty of phenylalanine and tyrosine and cannabanoid-related
compounds.


I think he means phenylethylamine, not phenylalanine.

#5 dalessm

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 09:22 PM

In reference to his claim that Piracetam facilitates reuptake of all neurotransmitters, should those of us using SSRI's be concerned? In effect, what he's discussing is neurochemical homeostasis. Theoretically, his assertion is logical and suggests contraindications with SSRIs.

Any thoughts?

#6 dopamine

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 03:00 PM

It is my experience and that of my research team that most of the nootropics on the market increase the levels of production of the major neurotransmitters and also increase the turn over or reuptake and or breakdown of these elements as well if the precursors are available for their continued synthesis.


I have never read any study indicating which indicates that Piracetam increases the re-uptake of neurotransmitters in the synaptic junction. If this were true (for, say, serotonin) depression would result as a side effect because neurotransmitter stores would be depleted and the serotonergic system would be in a state of hypofunction. Piracetam does not act like amphetamine in that it depletes neuronal stores of neurotransmitters, rather, it's affect on these systems is a result of it's effect on the production of acetylcholine.

While it would not hurt to supplement with neurotransmitter precursors when taking Piracetam, a clear effect of this nootropic on levels of monoamines has not been clearly established.

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1992 Aug;42(4):859-64. 

Effects of piracetam on retention and biogenic amine turnover in albino rats.

Nalini K, Karanth KS, Rao A, Aroor AR.

Department of Clinical Biochemistry and Nutrition, Kasturba Medical College, Karnataka, India.

The chronic effects of orally administered 2-pyrrolidone acetamide (piracetam) on one-trial, passive avoidance task were studied in albino rats. The effects on the contents of norepinephrine (NE), dopamine (DA), and serotonin (5-HT) in the brain and on the levels of their metabolites both in the brain and urine were also assessed. Significant improvement was observed in the retention ability compared with saline-administered controls. The contents of NE, DA, and 5-HT and their metabolites in the brain were significantly decreased after piracetam administration. The urinary metabolite levels were also significantly decreased except total 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenyl glycol (MHPG). These data indicate that piracetam causes an overall decrease in the turnover of central monoamines. Thus, the results of this study implicate the involvement of NE, DA, and 5-HT systems in learning and memory processes. Piracetam did not exert any GABAergic effect as shown by the absence of change in the brain GABA levels.


Indian J Exp Biol. 1989 Mar;27(3):261-4. 

Effect of piracetam, a nootropic agent, on rat brain monoamines and prostaglandins.

Bhattacharya SK, Upadhyay SN, Jaiswal AK, Bhattacharya S.

Piracetam is the prototype of a new class of psychotropic drugs, the nootropic agents, which are claimed to selectively improve the higher telencephalic integrative activities. The effect of piracetam on rat brain monoamines and prostaglandins (PGs) was assessed so as to garner information on its mode of action. Two doses of the drug were used, a lower dose (20 mg/kg ip) and a higher dose (100 mg/kg, ip), the latter being known to exert a facilitatory effect on learning and memory. Piracetam produced a dose-related effect on rat brain serotonin (5HT) and noradrenaline (NA), with the lower dose inducing a decrease in 5HT levels and an increase in NA concentrations. The higher dose of piracetam produced the opposite effect. Dopamine (DA) levels were not significantly affected. The lower dose of the drug attenuated 5HT turnover and augmented that of NA, whereas the higher dose of piracetam produced the reverse effects, in clorgyline treated rats. The lower dose of piracetam produced a slight and statistically insignificant increase in rat brain PGE2 and PGF2 alpha. However, the higher dose of the drug produced marked increase in the levels of both the PGs. The observed biochemical effects may provide a basis for the nootropic effect of piracetam. However, they may also be due to the GA-BA-mimetic action of the drug, particularly those observed with the lower dose of piracetam.



#7 vortexentity

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 07:53 PM

Perhaps my research associates and I have suffered a lack of serotonin prior to our sustained use of Piracetam.

I have also read all of the papers sited in this thread and think perhaps rat brains are a little different then humans.

Our use of Chocamine has several purposes. The most important is the added energy and feeling of happiness we get from taking the product. We are not taking it in excess amounts in the Neuro-FX formula so the side effects if any are not noticeable to any of our researchers or test subjects so far. The response I get more than anything from people taking Neuro-FX is; "is this stuff legal" or "Wow".

I was not aware of Canada banning Chocamine. If you have any reference to this please post it so I can review this info.

Chocamine makes for a much happier person I can tell you that much.

The formula is not designed to be the end of the line as far as brain supplements go.
It is our first and it works well for us and for everyone who has tried it. We have already developed and are testing an AF or advanced formula which will cost more but have about 5 times the effect. This one includes the added ingredients Aniracetam, Alpha-GPC, and DL Phenylalanine.

The problem is that too many expensive ingredients prices the compound out of the range we want to sell in so we made some decisions on components based on cost.

The AF formula will cost more but will include the ingredients listed above. It should be done with testing in about 2 weeks.

Chocamine contains both Phenelethylamine and a smaller amount of Tyrosine and Phenylalanine. I am sure that the mood enhancing features of our product are a result of the Phenelethylamine content of the Chocamine.

Everyone who has tried Neuro-FX has had nothing but positive comments and have ordered more so it is a hit and that is what is important from a marketing perspective.

We all get more work done and our work is superior to work done prior to using Neuro-FX. Increased creativity, focus, concentration, mental clarity have been reported by all test subjects and subjective review of their work by others is in agreement that their perceived increased work function is indeed accurate.

The AF formula will be even better and the cost will go down for the original formula once our volume increases a bit.

What might be of interest to you folks is our plan to establish a wholesale buyers club for Nootropics and nutritional elements. Our plan is to purchase direct from the manufacturers and mark up only 35% which is enough to cover cost and make a small profit. Groups wanting better prices on their Nootropics and other nutritional products will find that the prices offered are lower then anywhere else. The club will increase our volume as a side benefit and we will reduce prices to match the higher volume pricing for the components for our formula.

Details will be on our site in about 2 weeks. Suggestions are welcome. We will have a poll ready by then and will ask what you want to have supplied in bulk.

Edited by vortexentity, 02 March 2007 - 07:09 AM.


#8 dopamine

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 03:48 PM

In reference to his claim that Piracetam facilitates reuptake of all neurotransmitters, should those of us using SSRI's be concerned? In effect, what he's discussing is neurochemical homeostasis. Theoretically, his assertion is logical and suggests contraindications with SSRIs.

Any thoughts?


To my knowledge there is no contraindication in using Piracetam with an SSRI. This is mainly because Piracetam does not have a clear, direct effect on serotonin levels (in some areas of the brain there is an increase, in others a decrease). According to this logic of neurotransmitter deficit resulting from Piracetam use, an SSRI would be beneficial, since it would prevent accelerated reuptake resulting from increased serotonin release from the pre-synaptic terminal.

Details will be on our site in about 2 weeks. Suggestions are welcome. We will have a poll ready by then and will ask what you want to have supplied in bulk.


I am wondering about a couple of the current ingredients to Neuro-FX.

The small amount of Piracetam (650 mg) in the mixture is unlikely to have any significant effect, in my opinion. Studies show a bell-shaped response curve, with 2400 mg being the most beneficial dose (Int J Psychophysiol. 1999 Oct;34(1):81-7).

I am curious as to why you include DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol) in the mixture, as it has been shown in some cases to actually inhibit choline uptake into the brain.

Perturbations in choline metabolism cause neural tube defects in mouse embryos in vitro.

Fisher MC, Zeisel SH, Mar MH, Sadler TW.

Department of Cell Biology and Anatomy, School of Medicine, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27599-7090, USA.

A role for choline during early stages of mammalian embryogenesis has not been established, although recent studies show that inhibitors of choline uptake and metabolism, 2-dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), and 1-O-octadecyl-2-O-methyl-rac-glycero-3-phosphocholine (ET-18-OCH3), produce neural tube defects in mouse embryos grown in vitro. To determine potential mechanisms responsible for these abnormalities, choline metabolism in the presence or absence of these inhibitors was evaluated in cultured, neurulating mouse embryos by using chromatographic techniques. Results showed that 90%-95% of 14C-choline was incorporated into phosphocholine and phosphatidylcholine (PtdCho), which was metabolized to sphingomyelin. Choline was oxidized to betaine, and betaine homocysteine methyltransferase was expressed. Acetylcholine was synthesized in yolk sacs, but 70 kDa choline acetyltransferase was undetectable by immunoblot. DMAE reduced embryonic choline uptake and inhibited phosphocholine, PtdCho, phosphatidylethanolamine (PtdEtn), and sphingomyelin synthesis. ET-18-OCH3 also inhibited PtdCho synthesis. In embryos and yolk sacs incubated with 3H-ethanolamine, 95% of recovered label was PtdEtn, but PtdEtn was not converted to PtdCho, which suggested that phosphatidylethanolamine methyltransferase (PeMT) activity was absent. In ET-18-OCH3 treated yolk sacs, PtdEtn was increased, but PtdCho was still not generated through PeMT. Results suggest that endogenous PtdCho synthesis is important during neurulation and that perturbed choline metabolism contributes to neural tube defects produced by DMAE and ET-18-OCH3.


Inhibitors of choline uptake and metabolism cause developmental abnormalities in neurulating mouse embryos.

Fisher MC, Zeisel SH, Mar MH, Sadler TW.

Department of Cell Biology and Anatomy, School of Medicine, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA.

BACKGROUND: Choline is an essential nutrient in methylation, acetylcholine and phospholipid biosynthesis, and in cell signaling. The demand by an embryo or fetus for choline may place a pregnant woman and, subsequently, the developing conceptus at risk for choline deficiency. METHODS: To determine whether a disruption in choline uptake and metabolism results in developmental abnormalities, early somite staged mouse embryos were exposed in vitro to either an inhibitor of choline uptake and metabolism, 2-dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), or an inhibitor of phosphatidylcholine synthesis, 1-O-octadecyl-2-O-methyl-rac-glycero-3-phosphocholine (ET-18-OCH(3)). Cell death following inhibitor exposure was investigated with LysoTracker Red and histology. RESULTS: Embryos exposed to 250-750 microM DMAE for 26 hr developed craniofacial hypoplasia and open neural tube defects in the forebrain, midbrain, and hindbrain regions. Embryos exposed to 125-275 microM ET-18-OCH(3) exhibited similar defects or expansion of the brain vesicles. ET-18-OCH(3)-affected embryos also had a distended neural tube at the posterior neuropore. Embryonic growth was reduced in embryos treated with either DMAE (375, 500, and 750 microM) or ET-18-OCH(3) (200 and 275 microM). Whole mount staining with LysoTracker Red and histological sections showed increased areas of cell death in embryos treated with 275 microM ET-18-OCH(3) for 6 hr, but there was no evidence of cell death in DMAE-exposed embryos. CONCLUSIONS: Inhibition of choline uptake and metabolism during neurulation results in growth retardation and developmental defects that affect the neural tube and face. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.


It does not specify on the web site description of the product whether the Lecithin (mispelled "Lethithin") is standardized to phosphatidylcholine content, which is the primary beneficial constituent of this phospholipid. If the logic was to offer a source of choline with the Piracetam, then I would suggest replacing the Lecithin with either CDP-Choline or Alpha GPC.

Also, this product would be entirely safe for those who are on SSRI's provided the 5-HTP was taken out of the mixture. I doubt this would harm the neural stimulating properties of this product since 5-HTP is known as having a sedative (as opposed to a stimulating) effect.

One major problem with such pre-made "proprietary" blends is that the doses of most of the ingredients are completely unknown. Ingesting unknown amounts of these types of various substances is like a shot in the dark in terms of achieving "neural enhancement."

#9 vortexentity

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 04:48 PM

These are all good suggestions and are taken into consideration in the AF formula. Perhaps a reformulation will be offered to include these details; We will offer the AF formula without the 5-HTP, and include Alpha-GPC. We will also add the Aniracetam to the formula and a bit higher level of Piracetam. I have already tested this and it does work better.

Thanks for pointing out the mispelling as it has been corrected. One of the reasons for my starting with looking for a formulation was to deal with my dyslexia. It is not a cure but it does help a great with dealing with the symptoms.

My experience is that the DMAE when it is present with ALCAR works well for increased acetylcholine production but Alpha-GPC is far superior even if it does cost more. The lecithin was included to add to the choline available in the mix but is not used in the AF formula since the Alpha-GPC provides plenty of choline.

Thanks for contributing your guidance into making a better product based on your suggestions. I will answer any formulation questions to individuals but will not at present give the exact details on the package or web site for reasons of competition web browsing. If you have further suggestions I will be looking in on this thread.

Edited by vortexentity, 02 March 2007 - 07:10 AM.


#10 vortexentity

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 06:36 PM

dopamine,
and everyone else in this forum,

We finished measuring, milling, blending, capping, bagging and tagging, per your suggestions and included this in the trial run of the AF formula.

If you would care to sample the trial run of the Neuro-FX*AF, simply use the order form connected to our site and select any of the sized packages you care to sample. Put in the comments box at the check-out the domain name of this forum "imminst.org"

We will then substitute the regular formula with the trial batch of the Neuro-FX*AF.

This will have the following changes included. 5-HTP dropped, Lecithin dropped,

Piracetam increased to 750MG per dose, Aniracetam added at 100MG per dose. Alpha-GPC added at 100MG per dose. The rest of the formula is the same. This new compound will cost us more but we will include it at the regular price during this trial.

Just be sure to include the domain name of this forum "imminst.org" when you order and we will substitute the AF for the regular formula without added cost to you as our thanks for your suggestions. When you try it your feedback will be used to keep improving the product. The ones that sell or are requested the most will remain and the formula that does not sell will be discontinued.

I like the 5-HTP in the original formula. Also the extra piracetam is offered separately and fairly cheaply I might add, if more is needed.

Piracetam in the formula was decreased down until no one in the test group had an over-reaction (amped-out) effect. The most sensitive person in the test group found that 650MG was all she could take at a time and we wanted it to work for everyone.

The Nootropic components are all available separate from the neurotransmitter precursors so if even higher amounts are needed dosage can always be increased if desired.

On the subject of the wholesale buyers club, folks we are going to set that up per your suggestions. How many people do you think would want to buy into a large volume price level and with only about a 35% mark-up over factory delivered cost, weighed, measured, packed, and shipped out to you.

Imagine that. I can tell you that even the bulk supply places are charging about a 100% mark-up over cost for Nootropics. We have been in direct price negotiations with the factory and establishing factory direct pricing and I will confirm that 100% mark-up is pretty common. This is for the stripped down bulk sellers not the fancy package places.

We intend to offer a wholesale buyers club like Sam's sort of but for Nootropics and life-extension items.

We will at first be offering Piracetam, Aniracetam, Centrophenoxine, PS-PC%50/50, 5-HTP, Galantamine, D-Phenylalanine, Picamilon, and Somatropin at huge discount using an e-escrow account.

We intend to allow people to buy into one of our factory purchases at several volume levels if they want to so long as they are a member of the buyers club.

For example we will place an order for 1 metric ton of Piracetam, this is of course 1000 kilos. This will be offered in 1, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250 Kilo amounts, at a rate of $8.60 per kilo no matter how much you care to pre-order.

The funds will accumulate in escrow and buyers can see in real time just how much is still needed to place the order. When the order is placed the pre-order buyers will be notified of the expected shipping date and then further will be emailed out a tracking number when the order is shipped.

This allows everyone who wants to purchase their Nootropic and life extension elements the lowest possible cost possible. This will allow us to increase our volume more quickly and we will produce better products at lower prices as a result. Everyone wins in this situation and life extension and nootropic supplementation becomes more affordable. My reasoning in this is that if we all intend to do this for the rest of our lives lets make it as reasonable as possible to do and still make money doing it.

The MLM access fee of $12.95 per month will include the buyers club membership as a side benefit. This way everyone that gets involved and gets others involved gets paid to help us grow. The payout is pretty nice if you care to look it over on the 24-7wealthbuilder.com web site. We expect to have this ready within a 2 week period. All the prices offered will be the best we can obtain and I am sure will be attractive to others. I am betting on it in fact.

Edited by vortexentity, 02 March 2007 - 07:10 AM.


#11 ejdavis1

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:30 PM

MLM? No thanks.

I happen to prefer my own stack. Piracetam does nothing for me.

I'll stick with http://www.smi2le.biz .

#12 vortexentity

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:52 PM

If your volume is low enough then a bulk place such as that is likely your best deal.

If you are buying in large quantity regularly we will be about 50% to 65% lower then smil2le on our bulk prices when pre-ordered. Just like Sam's and other buyer clubs we charge an access fee of sorts but unlike other buyers clubs you get cash back from signing up other members. How is that a bad deal for anyone?

I will line it out in a more complete form well before the launch of the Nootropic and Life Extension products wholesale buyers club.

Edited by vortexentity, 02 March 2007 - 07:10 AM.


#13 ejdavis1

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:02 PM

Under your "buyers club" model, do you have the substances in stock or will buyers have to wait until enough people contribute into the fund?

Does this fund earn interest for the buyers?

Will there be an "opt out" and refund option if someone gets tired of waiting on an order?

Edited by ejdavis1, 30 September 2004 - 10:24 PM.


#14 nootropi

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 12:48 AM

Under your "buyers club" model, do you have the substances in stock or will buyers have to wait until enough people contribute into the fund?

Does this fund earn interest for the buyers? 

Will there be an "opt out" and refund option if someone gets tired of waiting on an order?


Hi Ed,

Those are good questions.

Gotta go.

Take care, my friend. :)

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 01:43 AM

Vortexentity, if I had known you were going to re-engineer your product around our suggestions I would've spent some time giving you some solid suggestions as well.

I may never buy a multi-nootropic product because I like the flexibility of building my own nootropic stack. That said there is a market for this convenience product and I would be happy to give my suggestions.

For right now I want you to consider seriously some of the following suggestions which you may want to add (or adjust) to your multi-nootropic product:

-Pyritinol
-Vinpocetine (perhaps Picamilon)
-Piracetam
-Aniracetam
-Alpha GPC
-Hyperzine A (adjusted dosage accordingly with Alpha GPC)
-Sulbutiamine
-B vitamins (may not be the best use of capsule volume, but worth consideration)
-Phosphadityl Serine, Soy derived (controversial, may not be effective, but is safe)

I understand that the volume of each capsule is limited, but here are some nootropics to consider. Some of them you have already incorporated into your product. Remember how important it is to get the ratios of nootropics correct, people can take multiple pills for an increased effect but you must have an effective ratio of nootropics so that you aren't getting overstimulated or understimulated in various ways.

I'll probably have much more to say about this later.

Good luck.

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#16 vortexentity

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 03:23 AM

clip

Edited by vortexentity, 02 March 2007 - 07:10 AM.





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