36 replies to this topic

[MadFly]

Hello. What supplements would you recommend for general anxiety/social anxiety? It's getting out of hand and is especially noticeable around the opposite sex. For example, I was around a female friend and I took her out to eat but my appetite was completely gone and I was extremely nervous the whole time. She mentioned me eating like a mouse. I have been prescribed SSRI's before but they are not for me. They make me cloud headed, shaky, and decreased my appetite. To note, I have never taking more than a month supply. I have experimented with weed and xanax. Weed calms my anxiety but kills my short term memory and often leaves me confused. Xanax works great but I know its not good long-term. I want to stay away from both of these. I currently take vitamin c with orange juice every morning(noticeable energy and mood boost), magnesium(no noticeable effect), omega-3(also no noticeable effect, piracetam(take maybe once a week but it's lost its magic for sure), and choline. My nerves have always been bad. Any recommendations?

[leha]

Are you sure you aren't just in love?

[MadFly]

Well, I am extremely attracted to her. The anxiety also affects my job and other social situations also. My hands shake and I avoid eye contact with anybody as often as I can. That example just stuck out because it happened very recently.

[Deckah]

You might try reading a thread I made, other than that I can only point to the search engine on immist. ( http://www.imminst.o...-choline-alcar/ ). I have a very similar social anxiety. In that thread I actually forgot to mention what I kinda go through as well, along the lines of what you stated. Which is uneasyness along with a full feeling when going out to eat with friends. Sometimes I will just lose my appetite during eating and just feel full all the sudden with a hint of queasiness, but it doesn't happen that often.

In that thread I posted certain things I was gathering information for, that also combat social anxiety to some extent (at least from the effects posted online). There is no concrete evidence in that post, but it might be a few good leads for you to take a stab at (searching).

One thing you might try would be Ginger maybe? From what I have read it can combat anxiety and nausea to some extent. I read numerous reports on it helping to relieve nausea to help pregnant mothers eat, that's what it's touted for. You're not a pregnant women, but I don't think that would stop it from having similar effects on you .


Or maybe it's the girly love butterflies that leha stated

Edited by Kdvwest, 12 September 2010 - 03:40 AM.

[leha]

I totally understand. I used to have the same thing when I was younger, but then it did get to the point where it was only happening around crushes. Social anxiety is really hard. I used to not be able to participate in group discussions because I would get so nervous and overthink everything and by the time I finally figured out what to say the topic had moved on. I had the shaking thing, too--and it makes it worse because you can't hide the shaking and pretend you're okay. What finally fixed it for me, though, was not a supplement or a drug, but deep self-investigation, and a book about social anxiety that helped me understand how it works, the various triggers, and what to do. For awhile I had the help of a therapist that specialized in social anxiety, and that was invaluable. Having people in your life that you trust deeply is immensely powerful.

I'm not sure there's really a pill or potion for this one, but I do know that it can be worked through. (Except, of course, that when you are in love, you are going to feel all goofy all over again. )

[leha]

Ah, KDV slipped in. Yes, if you just want to get past nausea, ginger works pretty good for that. Plus it makes you smell like spice!

[MadFly]

Thanks guys. I'll look thoroughly at your thread KDV. I'll also definitely look into the ginger. The slight thought of her and I can't even hold in my breakfast.

[Logan]

New Chapter's Holy Basil
Play with the dosage and EPA to DHA ratio of fish oil
Moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch 5 days a week
Manganese-20 mg
Low dose lithium orotate-5 mg
PEA
Good brand of SJW

If thing don't improve in the next six months you may want to seriously consider escitalopram and some form of therapy. Actually, therapy should be followed through with whatever you do.

Edited by morganator, 12 September 2010 - 05:10 AM.

[Animal]

The slight thought of her and I can't even hold in my breakfast.

Awww that's sweet lol, maybe you should just openly admit to the anxiety, I know that can help as you don't feel the need to hide it from people. It certainly helps you relax when you know other people understand your situation. You'd be surprised just how understanding people can be when it comes to things like that. Everyone has suffered from anxiety at some point, so most people can relate to some extent.

I'm not an anxious person at all typically, I stopped caring what people thought of me a long time ago. If anything I'm too laid back and I feel totally at ease discussing what many people would consider awkward topics. But when it comes to my girlfriend, who I have broken up with once, I still feel nervous at times when I haven't seen her for a while and we meet up. It's just natural to feel like that when you are romantically involved or interested in someone, because what they think of you is extremely important. Exposure therapy will definitely help you in this regard.

[Soma]

The slight thought of her and I can't even hold in my breakfast.

Does this mean you ralph at the mere thought of her? That is quite rough.

I have had that full feeling with quasi-queasiness in certain situations before though, so I can commiserate. I used to be somewhat nervous going out with someone for the first time and those nerves always translated into a "gut-feeling", if you know what I mean. It's like butterflies in the stomach multiplied by a thousand, the feeling of fullness, and topped off with a little nausea for good measure.

There seems to be a direct line of communication between the gut and the brain, so much so that some researches have called the gut the "second brain." I think that this is why psychological problems can and often do accompany GI issues, and vice versa.

[medievil]

Also posted this on another forum regarding social anxiety:

School avoidance and social phobia triggered by haloperidol in patients with Tourette's disorder

EJ Mikkelsen, J Detlor and DJ Cohen

Fifteen patients with Tourette's disorder developed school and work avoidance syndromes when treated with low doses (mean 2.5 mg/day) of haloperidol for short periods of time (mean, 8 weeks). The phobic syndromes disappeared completely with discontinuation or reduction of the haloperidol dose. Haloperidol's effects on dopaminergic functioning support a role for catecholamines in the pathogenesis of phobic syndromes. It is not known whether phobias are precipitated by haloperidol only in patients with Tourette's disorder as a consequence of the specific metabolic alterations in this disorder or are a medication side effect in other psychiatric disorders as well.

Altough this is about patients with tourette this further confirms that dopamine is highly implicated in social behaver, and that dopamine antagonism can significantly worsen symptons of social anxiety.

Study's have confirmed that people with social anxiety are at a much higher risk for developping parkinson (1), indicating that we are suffering from dopaminergic dysfunctioning. Dopamine has also been implicated in social status (2) and as last the D2 gene's have been associated with extrovertism (3).

This data supports that dopaminergics are the best treatment for social anxiety, possible options are either MAOI's (parnate, nardil), dopamine agonists (pramipexole, ropinirole) and stimulants (dexedrine, adderall etc).

Anecdotal reports confirm the effiacy of those treatments in social anxiety disorders.

1. Frequency of social phobia and psychometric properties of the Liebowitz social anxiety scale in Parkinson's disease. PMID: 18661550
2. Dopamine Type 2/3 Receptor Availability in the
Striatum and Social Status in Human Volunteers Full text
3. Variation in DRD2 dopamine gene predicts Extraverted personality. PMID: 19897017

(I messed up the first reference, that one shows that SA is highly prevelant in parkinson, showing dopaminergic dysfunctioning can cause SA, i mixed it up with the ref showing people with social anxiety are at a 6 times higher risk of developping parkinson, need to try to find that one again.

However it seems you are looking for supplements you probably arent interested in MAOI's, stimulants or dopamine agonists, there was a study showing one type of omega3 significantly raised dopamine in rodents, but the forum where it was posted is down so will try to post that later.

Another option is manganese, wich can be toxic there was also a good post about that on that same forum, will posts those things soon.

Edited by medievil, 12 September 2010 - 02:28 PM.

[medievil]

I would also like to add there are differend type's of social anxiety, for many its purely just anxiety so something that relaxes them cures them (such as alcohol) in my case i dont give a shit about what people think, so alcohol, benzo's, GHB etc dont work either, they make me not care but i dont care in the first place. Also no matter how much exposure my SA doesnt help one bit. For people like me dopaminergics are the most helpfull thing.

[MadFly]

Thanks to everyone so far. I was definitely considering last night to open up to her about the anxiety. I'll definitely look into the supplements you suggested morganator. I was thinking about supplementing manganese quite a while ago. Medievil, alcohol definitely helps relieve my anxiety but of course I do not want to rely on it.

[medievil]

Have you considered CBT?

Low omega-3 fatty acid diets diminish dopamine levels, a monoaminegeric neurotransmitter. In 2000, a study by Zimmer et al. observed rats fed an n-3 fatty acid poor diet had a 90% reduction of dopamine released in their brains and mild damage to the dopaminergic synaptic vesicles (2). The neurotransmitter was unable to trigger communication signals to the next neuron. Similarly in a 1998 article in the Journal of Nutrition by Chalon, S. et al., rats fed a fish oil diet had a great grain capacity than those fed a control diet. The rats consuming higher quantities of fish oil had 40% greater dopamine levels in the frontal lobes (2). Scarce dopamine levels in human brain frontal lobes induce neurocognitive functions such as memory, problem solving, and attention are negatively affected (1). Furthermore, if low dopamine levels in humans affect attention, then perhaps this deficiency may be a contributing factor to ADHD. A more examined problem is the susceptibility to depression with low n-3 fatty acid diets and low dopamine amounts. Many animal studies have concluded low dopamine levels, as a result of depleted n-3 fatty acid diets, lead to behavioral problems.


Omega-3 fatty acids not only affect not only dopamine, but also serotonin. Neural membrane tissues contain DHA which facilitate signaling pathways (5). The DHA concentration in neuron membranes has a direct correlation to serotonin levels according to a 1995 study by Hibbeln and Salem. DHA reduction negatively affects either serotonergic receptors or serotonin-reuptake systems (5). Later Olsson et al. concluded a study suggesting a diet low in n-3 fatty acids reduces the amount of serotonin (2). Chronic dietary deficiencies in n-3 fatty acids have also found a 40-75% decrease in dopamine levels (2, DeLion et al). Furthermore, if there are scare amounts of serotonin, then signal relaying is hindered. Only high amounts of serotonin, resulting from a DHA rich diet, tend to facilitate neurotransmission.

But it seems your allready taking omega3.

Perhaps you could try trivastal, it caused a reduction in my anxiety and its a benign dopamine agonist without much side effects.

Lemon balm seems to be a good anxiolytic in rodents.

Aniracetam could help:

Anxiolytic effects of aniracetam in three different mouse models of anxiety and the underlying mechanism

Kazuo Nakamura, and Mitsue Kurasawa
CNS Supporting Laboratory, Nippon Roche Research Center, 200 Kajiwara, Kamakura, Kanagawa 247-8530, Japan
Received 6 March 2001; revised 12 April 2001; accepted 18 April 2001. Available online 12 June 2001.
Abstract
The anxiolytic effects of aniracetam have not been proven in animals despite its clinical usefulness for post-stroke anxiety. This study, therefore, aimed to characterize the anxiolytic effects of aniracetam in different anxiety models using mice and to examine the mode of action. In a social interaction test in which all classes (serotonergic, cholinergic and dopaminergic) of compounds were effective, aniracetam (10–100 mg/kg) increased total social interaction scores (time and frequency), and the increase in the total social interaction time mainly reflected an increase in trunk sniffing and following. The anxiolytic effects were completely blocked by haloperidol and nearly completely by mecamylamine or ketanserin, suggesting an involvement of nicotinic acetylcholine, 5-HT2A and dopamine D2 receptors in the anxiolytic mechanism. Aniracetam also showed anti-anxiety effects in two other anxiety models (elevated plus-maze and conditioned fear stress tests), whereas diazepam as a positive control was anxiolytic only in the elevated plus-maze and social interaction tests. The anxiolytic effects of aniracetam in each model were mimicked by different metabolites (i.e., p-anisic acid in the elevated plus-maze test) or specific combinations of metabolites. These results indicate that aniracetam possesses a wide range of anxiolytic properties, which may be mediated by an interaction between cholinergic, dopaminergic and serotonergic systems. Thus, our findings suggest the potential usefulness of aniracetam against various types of anxiety-related disorders and social failure/impairments.

I will try to think of more things.

[Animal]

Taurine?

[ajnast4r]

low dose (5mg) lithium orotate is far superior in my experience to anything

Edited by ajnast4r, 12 September 2010 - 04:38 PM.

[csrpj]

since you enjoyed piracetam, you may get good results from aniracetam too, which is known as an anxiolytic. it'll loose its magic just like piracetam, but it can still help you out. perhaps using it on an as-needed basis, or temporarily while you sort your anxiety out with other supplements/therapy/lifestyle changes, or perhaps it may help out for a while.

[Lufega]

Manganese and selenocysteine work magic for social anxiety. Search the forum.

[rwac]

Manganese and selenocysteine work magic for social anxiety. Search the forum.

Lufega, Where do you get Selenocysteine ?
All I can find is Se-MSC, or are we talking about the same thing ?

[Thorsten3]

Manganese and selenocysteine work magic for social anxiety. Search the forum.

Lufega, Where do you get Selenocysteine ?
All I can find is Se-MSC, or are we talking about the same thing ?

Being that nervous around a girl sounds like a self esteem issue to me. The guys that normally do well with the chicks are the ones who just don't care what the girl thinks of them. It's all a game and the one thing you need to hold onto all the time is her respect. Doing too much for her and treating her like a princess will get you no where. So it's all about confidence and your nerves sound like they really messed this up for you. That doesn't mean to say its the end of the world. Girls like us guys can actually be pretty understanding and appreciate that nerves can be present especially in dating situations. It's a sign of being human if anything. Any girl who looks down on you for this reason is not worth it. Don't stew on what happened and learn from the experience if anything. Think of the things that went well and the things that didn't go well and what you can do next time to improve them. Of course you can take stuff to help you get into the groove but it'll take a lot of experimentation to find a supplement that works for you in these situations. Probably worth it though. Phenibut would be pretty good for these one off situations (but obviously keep its use limited to one off occasions unless you want to endure the dreaded rebound and tolerance issues).
If this is a problem that is present all the time then I strongly urge you to sort your diet out (even if you consider it to be good it probably isn't if you feel this nervous all the time). It'll take 2/3 months of healthy eating (this includes choice of foods, times of day eating certain foods amongst other factors) for your body to build sufficient vitamin/mineral levels. You'll notice pretty much straight away that stabalization of blood sugar levels should benefit you in multiple areas and mood is definitley enriched by this process. I used to have horrific GAD but now I'm one of the most chilled out guys - even too chilled - I suffer anxiety very rarely now. Exercise is good and can enhance your vitality but the fuel you put inside your body has a profound effect. It's not something easily corrected overnight but it's worth it in the long haul especially when you find yourself in these situations. You might not agree but hey that's just my 5 cents. Good luck anyhow.

[e Volution]

I totally understand. I used to have the same thing when I was younger, but then it did get to the point where it was only happening around crushes. Social anxiety is really hard. I used to not be able to participate in group discussions because I would get so nervous and overthink everything and by the time I finally figured out what to say the topic had moved on. I had the shaking thing, too--and it makes it worse because you can't hide the shaking and pretend you're okay. What finally fixed it for me, though, was not a supplement or a drug, but deep self-investigation, and a book about social anxiety that helped me understand how it works, the various triggers, and what to do. For awhile I had the help of a therapist that specialized in social anxiety, and that was invaluable. Having people in your life that you trust deeply is immensely powerful.

I'm not sure there's really a pill or potion for this one, but I do know that it can be worked through. (Except, of course, that when you are in love, you are going to feel all goofy all over again. )

Similar to my own experience, care to elaborate on your self-investigation and reading material(s)?

[nito]

Hello. What supplements would you recommend for general anxiety/social anxiety? It's getting out of hand and is especially noticeable around the opposite sex. For example, I was around a female friend and I took her out to eat but my appetite was completely gone and I was extremely nervous the whole time. She mentioned me eating like a mouse. I have been prescribed SSRI's before but they are not for me. They make me cloud headed, shaky, and decreased my appetite. To note, I have never taking more than a month supply. I have experimented with weed and xanax. Weed calms my anxiety but kills my short term memory and often leaves me confused. Xanax works great but I know its not good long-term. I want to stay away from both of these. I currently take vitamin c with orange juice every morning(noticeable energy and mood boost), magnesium(no noticeable effect), omega-3(also no noticeable effect, piracetam(take maybe once a week but it's lost its magic for sure), and choline. My nerves have always been bad. Any recommendations?

Lol sums me up so well. Whenever there are women around my social environment, i suddenly feel i am going to puke if i eat anything. I usually just have a 7up or something fizzy, i can't stomach anything else or my gag reflex starts to take over. I have tried rescue remedy spray that has worked for me slightly. You could try that out.

[Lufega]

Manganese and selenocysteine work magic for social anxiety. Search the forum.

Lufega, Where do you get Selenocysteine ?
All I can find is Se-MSC, or are we talking about the same thing ?

Sorry Rwac, it's the same thing. I left out the first part of the name.

[rwac]

Sorry Rwac, it's the same thing. I left out the first part of the name.

Yeah, I've been taking 200mcg Se-MSC at night for a while now. What a waste.
I tried it, and it does make me feel better, So I'll increase the dose and take it in the morning..

[leha]

e Volution had asked about how I managed to overcome my own social anxiety, and although everyone's journey is different, I thought I would post a few items that helped me.

First, I had to address an inner loneliness that left me feeling one down from others in almost every situation. In doing this, I also had to address and challenge the whole notion of social hierarchy that was required to believe oneself less than others. Part of that was helped by reading about the Jungian concept of the "shadow" self, and by reading a little book about scapegoats (which I now can't find).

For the loneliness, I worked through a workbook called "The Loneliness Workbook," which I'm sure is probably still available.

I also read a book called "Overcoming Social Anxiety and Shyness," which really helped me understand the problem and know what to look for in myself and in my environment to make things easier. With the help of this book I was able to discover many areas of my life in which I had no trouble whatsoever (for example, I'm fine when I'm dancing, or when I'm with a small group of longtime friends). This helped me branch out from those situations both in reality and in my inner definitions of reality, so that I could experience comfort in more and more situations.

Another thing that helped in my particular case was studying non-verbal communication. For me, a lot of the anxiety came from finding most people & social situations entirely unpredictable, and therefore scary. I felt that if I could get some clues as to what was really going on it would help me feel prepared in situations I might otherwise be mystified by. What I learned is that non-verbal communication often reveals things about people that they have no intention of sharing with others--or sometimes even themselves. For example, knowing that someone is making all the nonverbal moves that indicate they are interested in you romantically DOES NOT mean that you know they want to be in a relationship with you. They might just be trying on their flirtatiousness for practice, or to gain your approval. Or they might like you but be utterly unwilling to even admit that to themselves. People are ultimately incredibly complex, while the non-verbal communication centers of the brain are much simpler. Learning about people in this way helped me to see that others are just as vulnerable as I am, and that it's okay to be vulnerable--that being able to feel vulnerable is a gift of strength, like the ability a tree has to bend when the wind blows.

I also read a lot of books/Internet sources about other aspects of social workings. Honestly, I grew up feeling that social interaction was an art that simply eluded me, so I had to study it, as well as myself, to come to feel like I could trust myself in a social situation. Ultimately, what I found out is that there is no (honest) book on how to be socially correct, and everyone is just making it up as they go along, or doing what they learned from someone else. This was incredibly liberating for me, because it meant that I could go ahead and choose a creative path to communicating with others that worked well for me. I guess I had harbored the assumption that there was a right and a wrong way of doing things, and I was relieved to find out that this just wasn't true.

[outsider]

e Volution had asked about how I managed to overcome my own social anxiety, and although everyone's journey is different, I thought I would post a few items that helped me.

First, I had to address an inner loneliness that left me feeling one down from others in almost every situation. In doing this, I also had to address and challenge the whole notion of social hierarchy that was required to believe oneself less than others. Part of that was helped by reading about the Jungian concept of the "shadow" self, and by reading a little book about scapegoats (which I now can't find).

For the loneliness, I worked through a workbook called "The Loneliness Workbook," which I'm sure is probably still available.

I also read a book called "Overcoming Social Anxiety and Shyness," which really helped me understand the problem and know what to look for in myself and in my environment to make things easier. With the help of this book I was able to discover many areas of my life in which I had no trouble whatsoever (for example, I'm fine when I'm dancing, or when I'm with a small group of longtime friends). This helped me branch out from those situations both in reality and in my inner definitions of reality, so that I could experience comfort in more and more situations.

Another thing that helped in my particular case was studying non-verbal communication. For me, a lot of the anxiety came from finding most people & social situations entirely unpredictable, and therefore scary. I felt that if I could get some clues as to what was really going on it would help me feel prepared in situations I might otherwise be mystified by. What I learned is that non-verbal communication often reveals things about people that they have no intention of sharing with others--or sometimes even themselves. For example, knowing that someone is making all the nonverbal moves that indicate they are interested in you romantically DOES NOT mean that you know they want to be in a relationship with you. They might just be trying on their flirtatiousness for practice, or to gain your approval. Or they might like you but be utterly unwilling to even admit that to themselves. People are ultimately incredibly complex, while the non-verbal communication centers of the brain are much simpler. Learning about people in this way helped me to see that others are just as vulnerable as I am, and that it's okay to be vulnerable--that being able to feel vulnerable is a gift of strength, like the ability a tree has to bend when the wind blows.

I also read a lot of books/Internet sources about other aspects of social workings. Honestly, I grew up feeling that social interaction was an art that simply eluded me, so I had to study it, as well as myself, to come to feel like I could trust myself in a social situation. Ultimately, what I found out is that there is no (honest) book on how to be socially correct, and everyone is just making it up as they go along, or doing what they learned from someone else. This was incredibly liberating for me, because it meant that I could go ahead and choose a creative path to communicating with others that worked well for me. I guess I had harbored the assumption that there was a right and a wrong way of doing things, and I was relieved to find out that this just wasn't true.

You were inhibited and as you went you discovered that you didn't need to cope with technics anymore. That's what happened to me anyway but never did much introspection like you did.

But your logic is very interesting, I can relate.

[tintinet]

Just some recent observations regarding my own anxiety (not really social- more generalized). Green tea extract (NSI) seemed to really exacerbate it. I've taken New Chapter Holy Basil a couple of times. I'm not sure it helps with anxiety, but it really seems to interfere with my ability to play the guitar.

[csrpj]

New Chapter's Holy Basil
Play with the dosage and EPA to DHA ratio of fish oil
Moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch 5 days a week
Manganese-20 mg
Low dose lithium orotate-5 mg
PEA
Good brand of SJW

If thing don't improve in the next six months you may want to seriously consider escitalopram and some form of therapy. Actually, therapy should be followed through with whatever you do.

are you recommending these all be taken at once? or are you talking about trying one at a time, and eventually combining all that work? if so, is the order you listed the supps significant?

[Logan]

New Chapter's Holy Basil
Play with the dosage and EPA to DHA ratio of fish oil
Moderate to intense exercise followed by a meditative stretch 5 days a week
Manganese-20 mg
Low dose lithium orotate-5 mg
PEA
Good brand of SJW

If thing don't improve in the next six months you may want to seriously consider escitalopram and some form of therapy. Actually, therapy should be followed through with whatever you do.

are you recommending these all be taken at once? or are you talking about trying one at a time, and eventually combining all that work? if so, is the order you listed the supps significant?

What I would do first: Exercise, Fish oil(if you're not doing already), Kira or New Chapter's Serofin SJW(may take a few weeks of course), Magnesium(just adding this one in), New Chapter Holy Basil and a low dose Lithium Orotate. If you start SJW, I see no reason why you could not start holy basil, magnesium, fish oil, and lithium orotate around the same time. I would try each one of these separately before start SJW just to see what the effect is of each. You might also want to look at a good brand of Ashwagandha, maybe Himalaya or Avesta. Your just going to have to give Kira or Serofin some time and experiment with the other things to see if they help. I picked Kira and Serofin because they are supposed to be two of the more calming brands of SJW.

[MadFly]

Just a small update, I decided to open up to her about the anxiety. I'm not sure if it was really a good thing but at least we're still talking. I started doing cardiovascular activities and lifting weights in the morning but on separate days. I also started drinking a good 23 g protein mix which has a mixture of whey, egg-white, and micellar casein. I've been taking 5 mg lithium orotate for the last 5 days. I have been in a really good mood lately but I'm not sure if its the lithium or a combination of my newly listed activities. I'm also not sure if its helping with my anxiety because I haven't really been anywhere out of my comfort zone lately. Thanks for the help everyone and I'll continue to make improvements as time goes on.