17 replies to this topic

[Miguel]

I would like to know if there are some plans to open a Facility of Cryonics in Western Continental Europe.

I know there is Kriorus in Russia, but since it is in Eastern Europe, far far away and not from European Union, it is harder to ship.


The problems with airline shipping because of laws, burocratic documents, etc are a big nightmare. Then it takes a lot of time since the person dies and the body arrives in the cryonics facility.
And with Pets, it seems it is even harder to ship by plane. I tried one enterprise and the person said that after talk with various airline enterprises, any of them accepts to carry a dead dog. I'll still try to get more information but it seems impossible to ship by plane.


Western Continental Europe, should already have one facility.
I think without the cost and problems of shipping we could even have more Western Europeans that could pay for Cryopreservation.



I suppose Western Continental Europe even has the 2nd biggest market on Cryonics.

For example, if we look into CI statistics (I can't add Alcor statistics since they don't have it), Western Continental Europe is the 2nd biggest market:

- USA: 622

- Western Continental Europe: 87
(
Germany 20
Greece 12
Spain 12
Netherlands 10
Sweden 7
Belgium 5
France 4
Italy 4
Norway 3
Poland 2
Austria 1
Croatia 1
Czech Rep 1
Denmark 1
Lithuania 1
Malta 1
)

- British Islands: 73
(
UK 68
Ireland 3
Isle of Man 2
)



I really think it's more than time to Western Continental Europe has its own facility and so members can be free from the shipping airline problems. Shipping would be a lot easier, specially for pets.

Edited by Miguel, 10 October 2010 - 12:15 AM.

[Delorean]

it seems a shame that there is nothing in the UK considering those numbers

[Luna]

none from israel :(

[albedo]

Nothing in Switzerland too ... :-(

So which approach someone living outside US should be taking?

[robomoon]

A realistic approach someone living outside US should be taking: drink black tea. That can reactivate some memories about what happened, like a decade ago. There were people in online forum discussions who came to think very much about the idea of cryonics in Germany. Some even joined a nonprofit organization called FALK. When I joined the discussion and FALK, I got my blue overall dusted. When necessary, I even changed to jacket and necktie, but when money became the topic, any mentioning of it ruined the positive relationship between the very few people who were poor wannabees and the majority of people who already had the money and life insurance for being the real cryonicsts. So I am a poor wannabee until today, I got no money, no health condition for a higher paid job or at least whatever cheap life insurance for cryonics there could be. I even would loose any legal right to apply for social money from the government if I had such a life insurance. Actually I am among a very small minority of people in Germany who really need a local provider if that makes it cheaper. So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.

Edited by robomoon, 25 May 2011 - 09:07 AM.

[albedo]

.... So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.

Thank you for reply. Agree, that could explain why Germans are on top of the list given by Miguel. I have the same concern as yours re costs. At the last Suspended Animation (SA) conference there were some "competitive" considerations between Alcor (Max More) and CI (Ben Best). Clearly CI is cheaper but the approach is different as with CI you would need to rely on SA for preparation and transportation. Alcor quoted 200k$ for full body while CI 35k$ (if i recollect the webcast) w/o SA services. Wonder if Moore's law and competition will apply here too pushing costs down.

[robomoon]

The following page, cited text shortened, should be an actual example of the most prominent kind of an online-based discussion very much in compliance with Moore's law in a country like Germany. URL: http://www.zune.net/...unsupported.htm SITE NAME: Not available in your region. LEGAL TERMS: Cop.-r. 2011 Microsoft Corp. All Rights Res.

.... So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.

Thank you for reply. Agree, that could explain why Germans are on top of the list given by Miguel. I have the same concern as yours re costs. At the last Suspended Animation (SA) conference there were some "competitive" considerations between Alcor (Max More) and CI (Ben Best). Clearly CI is cheaper but the approach is different as with CI you would need to rely on SA for preparation and transportation. Alcor quoted 200k$ for full body while CI 35k$ (if i recollect the webcast) w/o SA services. Wonder if Moore's law and competition will apply here too pushing costs down.

[albedo]

There is also an idea I just wish to float around: Switzerland.

I live in there and love the Country. It is not (yet? expect not to be for a long time) in Europe but geographically at the centre of it with great infrastructures, top educational institutions and an effective and stable political system. It has a long historic of tolerance, extraordinary democracy, wealth and I guess what I could call a pragmatic and non-dogmatic approach to death with rights to decide (last May 15 2011 people in Zürich voted to maintain "assisted suicide" (see DIGNITAS's site here and an analysis here).

Leveraging this background, I just wonder: would'not be Switzerland the ideal place in Europe to have legislation on cryonics plus local suspension and store premises, actually with the opposite scope, at the end, of preserving (rather than ending it) life, should current science making it realistic and betting on the long term scientific progress?

[albedo]

The very sad mess we are in the World and EU in particular, stuck into financial crisis, scandals, corruption, wars and I can go ahead should not us take away from the long term real important matters such as life preservation, fighting the war against aging and disease and optimism in science. In particular a serious debate in EU on cryonics if far to be the priority and short term sight and lack of long term projects are prevailing.

[albedo]

There is also an idea I just wish to float around: Switzerland.

I live in there and love the Country. It is not (yet? expect not to be for a long time) in Europe but geographically at the centre of it with great infrastructures, top educational institutions and an effective and stable political system. It has a long historic of tolerance, extraordinary democracy, wealth and I guess what I could call a pragmatic and non-dogmatic approach to death with rights to decide (last May 15 2011 people in Zürich voted to maintain "assisted suicide" (see DIGNITAS's site here and an analysis here).

Leveraging this background, I just wonder: would'not be Switzerland the ideal place in Europe to have legislation on cryonics plus local suspension and store premises, actually with the opposite scope, at the end, of preserving (rather than ending it) life, should current science making it realistic and betting on the long term scientific progress?

This is mentioned to some extent also in the Alcor magazine:

".....
OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES
Outside the United States a few jurisdictions have legalized assisted suicide, in particular Switzerland, where citizenship in the country is not required. Physicians are not prosecuted for assisting a suicide, so long as they are not motivated by self-interest. Organizations have been set up to provide this service, the best known being Dignitas.² Founded in 1998 by Ludwig Minelli, a Swiss lawyer, Dignitas enables those with terminal illness or severe physical or mental illness to die assisted by qualified doctors and medical staff. Under certain conditions persons with mental rather than physical ailments are assisted to die; the patient’s condition must fulfill specifications of the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland. In fact about one fifth of those dying through Dignitas do not suffer from a terminal or progressive illness but from “weariness of life.” The method of suicide is generally ingestion (swallowing) a lethal dose of the barbiturate Nembutal, though helium gas has also been used. It appears that the majority of cases are not autopsied but there is, of course, no guarantee of this.³
Could Dignitas or a similar organization help cryonicists? Probably the answer is “yes” but there would be extra expense (maybe about $10,000 overall) for an American using the service, plus the remains immediately after pronouncement would need to be handed over to a cryonics service provider such as Suspended Animation, Inc. for perfusion and initial cooling, an additional and no doubt considerable expense. The operation would be greatly facilitated, in some important ways, if there could be a Dignitas-type organization that catered to cryonics cases only. The liberal laws of Switzerland in regard to assisted suicide would seem to offer such a possibility, though it remains speculative. Another country that has legalized assisted suicide is the Netherlands,⁴ though apparently it is available only to citizens of the country, unlike Switzerland. Also unlike Switzerland, euthanasia (active participation of physicians in causing death) is legal in the Netherlands. The following conditions (“due care” criteria) must be met before a doctor can proceed:....."

http://www.alcor.org...yopreservation/

[albedo]

Voted today 17 June 2012 by the Swiss (Canton Vaud) for assisted suicide, after Canton Zürich). IMO this confirms a pragmatic and non-dogmatic approach to death and individual freedom of choice which I wonder might better position the Country to regulate positively on cryonics.

http://www.swissinfo...ml?cid=32920490

[caliban]

The main conundrum remains: A cryonics facility in western Europe would not be necessary (and perhaps not even desirable) if the Europeans had the capacity to vitrify and ship on nitrogen. As far as I know, the UK is the only country where that is a possibility, if yet unsubstantiated and unrealised. News to the contrary would be most welcome.

[Luminosity]

The Apple Store where I am now is very cold. Keep it in mind.

[mikeb80]

In Italy we have one of the worst laws ever.
When someone dies, the body must be kept under observation in the morgue (and not touched) for 24 hours.

So I hope that in the next years some hospital/clinic in Switzerland or UK will become "cryonics friendly" and will allow a fast intervention from a dedicated team (cooling down the body within few minutes, doing perfusion... and all the necessary steps to stabilize the patient and to avoid the death of neurons by ischemic damage). But a vitrification plant is still needed in order to ship to USA.

At the moment the nearest cryonics facility (for the citizens of the European Union) is the Kriorus, established in 2005.
I saw some photos and a video about them.

I appreciate the effort and dedication to the cause (they rely on 5 paid employees and a dozen of volunteers), but their company seems quite amateurish, if compared with the professionalism of Alcor & Cryonics Institute.
The storage facility is an old hangar in the woods some miles from Moscow.

Of course... with more money (= more patients ) the service could improve a lot and offer higher safety standards.

Edited by mikeb80, 24 August 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[albedo]

At time 1:09:58 of the following video, William Faloon (LEF) asks Max More (Alcor) to comment on the Suspended Animation company in Florida for emergency response capability in view of cryopreservation and he mentions UK and the "upcoming in Germany" facility. I wonder if you know more about the German company.

 

[ceridwen]

Add Wales 1 to that list at the top

[elfanjo]

This talk happened the 9 of april this year. It is quite recent so we will see..

the way I understand it is that transportation will be available from germany too (it is available from the uk at this time) via SA.

Shame we have no EU storage facilities. In france where political analysis-paralysis is the rule it will not happen anytime soon.
I recall of this doctor who had frozen (litteraly) his wife after she passed away and was keeping her in the basement. Authorities were soon knocking at his door and they had to bury her.

[Antonio2014]

So far, most of people in Western Continental Europe who want cryonics are not short on doe. Those people are satisfied for what cryonics costs right now and I bet, they would be willing and able to pay even more to secure faster transportation to a foreign cryonics facility.

 

 

How do you know that? I'm certainly interested in cryonics and I don't have the money to be cryonized. (Of course, a single datum doesn't matter. That's why I ask.)