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ImmInst Multi is out


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#31 e Volution

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:37 AM

I may even get more adventurous and go with:

1 x AOR Multibasics caps
2 x AOR Orthocore caps
2 x Vimmortal caps

Now that's my kind of thinking (dose could be a little high though)! I do the same with fish oil: A regular EPA/DHA Cap, a Fish+Flax Cap, a Krill oil, and then throw in teaspoon of Cod Liver Oil once/twice a week!

#32 PWAIN

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 12:53 AM

I may even get more adventurous and go with:

1 x AOR Multibasics caps
2 x AOR Orthocore caps
2 x Vimmortal caps

Now that's my kind of thinking (dose could be a little high though)! I do the same with fish oil: A regular EPA/DHA Cap, a Fish+Flax Cap, a Krill oil, and then throw in teaspoon of Cod Liver Oil once/twice a week!

The idea is 1/3 of a daily dose of each product. Orthocore is supposed to be 6 caps a day as is Vimmortal.

#33 chickenscratch

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:01 AM

ImmInst will certainly benefit from individuals becoming paid registered users in order to get the substantial discount.


I joined to get the discount.

#34 GLR

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:04 AM

Same for me.

#35 xEva

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:18 AM

I spotted a typo: beta-caroteane in IMPORTANT INFORMATION section. Looks good otherwise. I like the fact that nothing is megadosed and I assume a lot of thought went into proportions of ingredients. Good job.

#36 e Volution

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:29 AM

The idea is 1/3 of a daily dose of each product. Orthocore is supposed to be 6 caps a day as is Vimmortal.

Yes but 1/3 dose of 3 products = 1 full dose. My baseline diet is nutrition packed, I just do not always get in everything I want, and right now am unwilling to monitor my daily food consumption to ensure I am hitting all RDIs, thus warranting a partial (not full) dose.

#37 chrono

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:31 AM

Awesome. This is the only other multi besides multi-basics that I would be comfortable with. Very sanely formulated. As for criticisms about too many pills....come on, guys. The market is already flooded with crappy multis that spend more on marketing than research. This fills a much-needed niche, and at a cheaper price than multi basics, even if you buy membership on a monthly basis. $1 a day for such a good formulation is a bargain.

As for combining this with other multivitamins, it really seems to defeat the purpose of the well-researched forms and dosages. I think you'd be better off supplementing with individual vitamins/minerals, or the kind of extras found in ortho-core.

My one reservation is the choline. 550mg is a pretty high dose; I can take less than this, and feel a subtle yet definite (and not entirely pleasant) change in my headspace, and would experience a little insomnia if I ingested it late in the day. There are a fair number of people who react badly to choline precursors and cholinergics (see Those that get depressed from choline as an example, though reports are scattered around the noots section). Furthermore, the cholinergic system is probably the most common target for cognitive-enhancing agents, and 550mg bitartrate is a high enough dose to potentially interfere with protocols that modulate that system. IMO, this is out of place in this formulation; when searching through the project forum, I couldn't find any reasoning for it. I know for some people it's pretty benign, but I'll have to trial bitartrate at this dose for a while to decide if I'll be able to tolerate it in with regimen (or even without)—but past experience is not encouraging.

Edited by chrono, 14 October 2010 - 01:37 AM.


#38 RighteousReason

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:35 AM

The price ain't that bad, I mean sure we'd all like a lower price, but as along as it's not completely ridiculous, the only thing I really care about is getting the best quality. I'll have to look more into some the differences with Ortho Core before I speak anymore about that though.

oh and those people complaining about too many pills... that pisses me off to no end. It takes all of 2 seconds to take 5 pills instead of 1 or whatever. seriously, what in the world is your problem. and having many pills for a day's dose is actually more useful- you can divide up the dose throughout the day, or take a partial day's dose if you deem it better than the whole, depending on the day.

/rant

Edited by RighteousReason, 14 October 2010 - 01:45 AM.


#39 niner

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:46 AM

I spotted a typo: beta-caroteane in IMPORTANT INFORMATION section.

There are two others that I saw: niacinimide should be niacinamide, and oratate should be orotate. As these are in the Supplement Facts section, they might actually be illegal. One might get away with oratate, but there is a chemical functionality called an "imide", which has a defined meaning that is different from "amide". So the label is claiming that it contains something that's not there. This could be a problem beyond the marketing fail.

#40 nameless

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:55 AM

oh and those people complaining about too many pills... that pisses me off to no end. It takes all of 2 seconds to take 5 pills instead of 1 or whatever. seriously, what in the world is your problem. and having many pills for a day's dose is actually more useful- you can divide up the dose throughout the day, or take a partial day's dose if you deem it better than the whole, depending on the day.


Personally, the number of pills matters little to me, as you are right -- 5 pills vs 1, etc. isn't a big deal.

But if planning to market outside of Imminst, it probably matters. And if it increases costs, it matters.

The potency/price per capsule is what actually matters the most. If it was 3/day -- same price for 180 caps, it'd obviously be half the actual cost to the consumer. So when people mention the number of capsules (like I have), it doesn't necessarily mean it has to do with taking them, but the cost of the overall product, or wondering if someone not in this community would be willing to take 6 caps instead of their one-a-day.

#41 chrono

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:07 AM

I think the ability to control dosage far outweighs the "annoyance factor" for people who are unlikely to choose something like this over Centrum in the first place. Though given the low levels, we may be able to get away with 3-4 instead of 6, pretty reasonably.

Anthony, out of curiosity, how big are these pills? And what is the packaging like?

Edited by chrono, 14 October 2010 - 02:11 AM.


#42 Rich D

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:12 AM

Personally, the number of pills matters little to me, as you are right -- 5 pills vs 1, etc. isn't a big deal.

But if planning to market outside of Imminst, it probably matters. And if it increases costs, it matters.

One possible solution is to offer tablets as an alternative to capsules. I imagine that would get the dosage down to 4 tablets a day. I guess the question is how many people would prefer 4 tablets vs. 6 capsules? Assuming my guess of 4 tablets is correct.

On a side note, I prefer two doses a day (am/pm) for convenience. Besides, some days I only have two meals instead of three. That being said, I would personally go with 3 capsules AM, 3 capsules PM.

Edited by Michael, 18 February 2011 - 09:45 PM.
Trim quotes


#43 dosquito

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:52 AM

wow $25 is a great price. i will definitely get a student membership. What's up with the niacinamide though? I thought we hated that stuff in multis?

#44 Spectre

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:02 AM

Hmm..I'm sorry, but I am far from impressed with the labeling, low-doses of vitamins, and a bunch of minerals that you can get for cheap individually at a grocery store..not everyone should be taking 550mg of Choline daily along with Lithium, it's not designed for everyone..this could potentially cause harmful effects in some people, or at least I would think so. The price is very unreasonable in my opinion, even with the discount, $25 is 2.5x more than what I would be paying for Source Naturals Life Force, which was the best multivitamin I've taken (I loved the effects it gave me). $55 as the advertised price is way overboard in my opinion, the average consumer will just gawk at the price and be turned off.

Edited by Spectre, 14 October 2010 - 03:03 AM.

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#45 PWAIN

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:03 AM

My point about the 6 caps and Choline is that choline seems to represent the majority of the fill. How many caps would be required without the choline? If it is only 1 less then fine, but most multis are in 00 caps and they can usually take between 400mg and 900mg per cap depending on the density of the fill.

Ignoring the mcg items which are not going to add much, and Vit D, totaling up the remaining excluding Choline, I get 369.8mg (remember 550mg of Choline). That includes 200mg of Magnesium and 90mg of Vit C. Obviously there will be carriers for the mcg stuff, however it still seems that 6 caps is a lot for this list. Is this deliberately padded out ie. by design maybe?

I am struggling to see why this multi is using double the caps when it is so similar in many ways to AOR MB. Choline just jumped out at me as a possible reason.

Personally I couldn't care less if it is 3 or 6 caps (I take about 25 caps/pills per day anyway), but I sure would find it hard to recommend it to someone in my family or circle of friends at 6 caps.

#46 niner

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:19 AM

Hmm..I'm sorry, but I am far from impressed with the labeling, low-doses of vitamins, and a bunch of minerals that you can get for cheap individually at a grocery store..not everyone should be taking 550mg of Choline daily along with Lithium, it's not designed for everyone..this could potentially cause harmful effects in some people, or at least I would think so.

There is one milligram of lithium. A therapeutic dose is 300 to 1000 times larger. An argument can be made that everyone should be taking a milligram of lithium. A lot of us take 5 mg or more. I don't know about the choline. You might have a point there.

#47 chrono

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:26 AM

Regarding niacinamide, this thread (linked to the summary post) seems to suggest that there isn't much practical difference between the forms. And unlike other multis, the dosage is reasonable enough that any negative effects on NAD/etc will be very minimal. Anthony, did the nicotinamide ribose ever pan out? Though if this research is correct, it would probably just add to the expense, if not taken sublingually.

Agree with niner about the lithium, it's an intelligent amount unlikely to produce side effects, except perhaps some light sedation the first day or two taking it (probably about as much chance as the glycinate doing so).

200mg Mag glycinate is going to be about 1.4g of powder—probably about 1½ 00 caps by itself. I'm assuming the 6 pills/day is by design, to allow for flexibility in dosing.

We may want to consider doing a one-cap version without choline or magnesium, as it probably will be an issue for people who make such choices based on such considerations (did I said that diplomatically? ;)). I would like to be able to recommend this to such philistines as well, I suppose.

Edited by chrono, 14 October 2010 - 03:31 AM.


#48 rwac

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:46 AM

...Source Naturals Life Force, which was the best multivitamin I've taken (I loved the effects it gave me).


Just a thought, but you might want to figure out what in the multi is helping you and why.

#49 niner

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:56 AM

I just looked at a bottle of Bluebonnet mag glycinate, and 200 mg elemental fits in a 00 cap. I did some calculations on choline bitartrate, using a density of 7949mg/14.79cc that I got from purebulk, and a 00 cap volume of 0.95cc that I got from torpac:

550mg c.b. (14.79cc/7949mg) (1 00cap/0.95cc) = 1.08 00caps

Based on this, if we dropped the choline and the magnesium entirely, we'd still be looking at 4 caps.

#50 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:14 AM

I'm happy that the price is affordable and quite reasonable for what is included in this supplement.
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#51 dilenja

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:29 AM

I too wonder about the rationale for some of the ingredients and dosages. I know this project has been ongoing for some time, and that there are likely firmly rooted explanations for many of the selections; Life Extensionists as a group I believe are likely better read than most about ingredient selection and dosages, and I feel as though if there was corresponding literature available explaining these choices that it would likely appease many of this group who can be described as making informed product purchasing decisions.

I think the price of ~$50 is fine - so long as it is justified... the competition for this product is very much multi-basics and orthocore, and to be successful targeting this niche segment of customers I believe you will have to find a means of further differentiating your products from these offerings. Revgenetics is known for the quality of its Resveratrol especially and also its Curcumin, amongst other products. I would suggest including a daily 'maintenance' dosage of these products in the very least at these prices to attract adoption from present users of AOR products. The more you're able to differentiate your product, realistically the better in terms of absolute sales volume. Consider adding a maintenance dose of your Quercetin as well, and perhaps sourcing for other products such as Ubiquinol.

Everything looks great on the minerals side IMO. Furthermore, I especially like the inclusion of Iodine, K1, K2, Lutein, Lycopene, & Lithium.

Things that I wonder about:

- Vitamin B dosages generally appear to be somewhat low, is the belief that the majority of individuals would top up with a separately purchased B vitamin supplement? If so I wonder if this is the best decision considering the approach of competitors including at least RDA. I can understand your reluctance to include RDA of Folic acid and assume you had difficulty sourcing l-methylfolate which some individuals would no doubt prefer.
- Why the inclusion of Pyroxidine rather than P5P?
- I also wonder about the choline dosage, and particularily I suspect reducing this amount would likely appease more individuals while reducing cost slightly for you in terms of the amount of capsules/ingredient required. I've noticed that those individuals who do tend to consume larger quantities of choline tend toward A-GPC, or CDP Choline, which they would no doubt purchase separately anyway.
- Would it be possible to include a proper dosage breakdown of delta, beta, and alpha tocotrienals on the label? I suspect individuals would likely prefer to see a low amount of alpha in the mix.

Overall an excellent first attempt and I commend you on the lengths you've taken with this project to date, and your receptiveness upon its completion toward further critique and suggestions. I think the idea is a winner, and as far as price is concerned I think you'll find that once the formula has been perfected, that individuals will go out of their way to pay $50 a month - It's just nailing that differentiation I think which will be clench.
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#52 dilenja

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:43 AM

I want to also add that I'll definately be purchasing this myself at the present price for Imminst members, and that I'll also now be going out of my way now to purchase other RevGenetics products for daily use. I frankly had no idea you were assisting with the imminst multi-vitamin project and am glad to see such a quality name in support of the imminst community. Best of luck!



#53 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:55 AM

Micheal had a good snippet on lithium:

I am reposting here for those folks that have wondered:
(Initial Formulation Is) Missing lithium: good evidence that this is an essential nutrient, with an RDA of ~1 mg

Lithium orotate: I just do my best to spread the contents of a 5 mg cap evenly over 5 days. No, this is not the pharmacological dose shown to be neuroprotective in rodents subjected to horrible pharmacological or genetic assault, nor in human disease victims, neither of which are reasonable justification for use (let alone for dosages) in normal, healthy humans. See instead (24), which presents animal studies and a surprisingly large am't of (unfortunately, but of necessity, 'ecological' rather than truly prospective) epidemiology suggesting that Li is an essential nutrient, with an 'RDA' of ~ 1 mg, whose presence in the water is linked to having a much happier (less violent, criminal, suicidal, and generally "crazy") population; see also (25), quite recently, in Japan. The source I used to use (guess who ?) has unfortunately quit the market, and most of the alternatives are fly-by-night operations; I would probably recommend VRP. Whatever the merits of the orotate salt specifically (and I'm skeptical, esp at this dose), there's a good chance that even these guys don't have real Li orotate: most of the material out there is just the chloride or carbonate in a blend with orotic acid in the suitable proportions; unfortunately, there's no positive test for the compound per se, and so you have to do a series of negative tests to exclude chloride and carbonate, and almost no one does this. In my former career I went looking for the real deal, and couldn't find it ANY materials suppliers that had it, despite their claims, and it had to be contract manufactured by a company that specializes in true chelates (and then, they dropped it).



24. Schrauzer GN. Lithium: occurrence, dietary intakes, nutritional essentiality. J Am Coll Nutr. 2002 Feb ;21 (1):14-21. PMID 11838882

25. Ohgami H, Terao T, Shiotsuki I, Ishii N, Iwata N. Lithium levels in drinking water and risk of suicide. Br J Psychiatry. 2009 May ;194 (5):464-5; discussion 446. PMID 19407280

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 14 October 2010 - 04:56 AM.


#54 maxwatt

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 05:05 AM

WRT "low" dosages of vitamins, especially the B vitamins: it is assumed that people eat food containing some vitamins. Few of us need a full daily allowance of vitamins and minerals in a supplement, much less the insanely high levels in most multis, including Othocore. The Imminstn multi was designed to supplement a diet, to fill in the gaps that are likely to occur. It is not a food replacement. Must multis use the wrong, but cheaper, form of several vitamins (like E, folate, magnesium, etc.) This one doesn't take cheap shortcuts.

As to the number of pills, it's not so bad. I will no longer need separate choline, magnesium, vitamin E or vitamin K2, nor the current multi that I use. If my D3 requirement weren't higher than average, I could replace seven of my supplements with 6 of the multi. As it is, I come up even. That goes for price, too, to an extent.

I have used the Cron-o-meter computer program to determine what vitamins and minerals I was short of, and I think that even with a relatively healthy diet most people will fall a bit short on several things that this makes up for. FWIW, I had little to do with the design of the supplement, though I concur with the reasoning of those who did most of the work on it.

#55 Gern

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 05:23 AM

I'm guessing a fair number of people pay over $63 a month for Life Extension Mix from Life Extension Foundation, so the price isn't that out of line. My bet is the market can bear the price if you can back up the reasoning behind the formulation to the same degree that LEF does.

#56 ajnast4r

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 05:56 AM

as far as the B vitamins being 'low dose'... they are 100% RDA, what is listed is %DV. the RDA is right around optimal for healthy people... the idea that you need thousands of % higher is a falsehood perpetuated by supplement companies, imo.

there is a suggested RDA for lithium, check the lithium thread in the supplement design section if you want more info. there likely will be an RDA for lithium next time the RDA's are revised.



What's up with the niacinamide though? I thought we hated that stuff in multis?


the teams decision was on nicotinic acid. Anthony decided to change it to niacinamide himself, and im also wondering why? Anthony?

Edited by ajnast4r, 14 October 2010 - 06:06 AM.


#57 mikeinnaples

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:33 PM

1. Niacinamide .....regardless of the discussion in the linked thread above, the correct choice would be nicotinic acid. Given the conversion of Nicotinic Acid to niacinamide anyways, you gain the benefits of Nictonic Acid's action on lipid profile -and- the 'benefits' of niacinamide, whereas Niacinamide alone skips the lipid profile benefits. I can't see this being a cost prohibitve choice, so I am not sure I understand the reasoning.

2. Choline ....I am not sure I understand the dose of this. Seems a bit much given the aim and goals of the supplement.

3. The cost itself is prohibitive.

#58 pycnogenol

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 03:21 PM

Damn!--I wish it didn't have choline!


Why is that? Choline is awesome. :)

I take 350 mg daily (choline bitartrate)

Article: "Are You Getting Enough Choline?"

http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?id=1865

Edited by pycnogenol, 14 October 2010 - 03:26 PM.


#59 mikeinnaples

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:00 PM

Why is that? Choline is awesome. :)


Some people can't supplement it.

#60 nameless

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:03 PM

Two quick label questions:

Is Albion used for the glycinate minerals or is it from a cheaper source? I recall when this was first discussed in the forums and assumed at the time that Albion would be used. Since it isn't mentioned on the label, did you go with another manufacturer?

Is the lycopene sourced from lycomato (which I had hoped), or just plain lycopene?




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