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A good reason to live forever?


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#1 Illuminatusdarksoul

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 02:36 AM


Whilst talking to a fellow bioinformatition at 3 in the morning i discovered that many people, not only seeing my goal to live forever as impossible and selfish, they could not see a reason to live forever. My origional thoughts were that to live forever is a survival instict, and for the sake of living. Yet noone seems convinced with my reasoning, and when i sit infront of a jury that are deciding to cull people because of overpopulation and choose why people should live or not, my "i was there when it started and i helped a bit" story might not work.

What makes me so special? Not much really, so if anyone has any great goals, special abilities or anything that will get me and others ahead of the race and above the crowds of unbelievers and theoretical enemies, i would be more than apprecieative, even though i do not seem to be able to spell it.


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Posted 26 October 2004 - 03:25 AM

If there is anything you look forward to see/experience/be a part of in life, then that is reason enough to want to live longer or immortally.

Put your existential unrest aside for a moment. I will acknowledge that immortality may not be compatible with the human condition today, but it is likely that if we achieve a posthuman condition (with continual self-improvement) that immortality or radically extended life spans will become compatible and favoured among the population.

I can't guarantee that immortality is certain, but even if it were negligibly likely, the pursuit of ever longer life spans could lead us to an answer either way. Try not to frustrate yourself over what your life will be like in 10^6, 10^9, 10^12 years, it's likely that if you live that long the nature of your existance will be so abstract to anything you've been exposed to or fathomed as of yet.

Many of those who are critical of your pursuit of immortality, are themselves believers in immortality after death. Eternal life for the soul in a blissful heaven. Sometimes it's interesting to point out the hypocrisy of their statements.

#3 Mind

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 06:38 AM

Also, a lot of young people think they are indestructible. They don't think too much about aging or death (I am assuming you are in college). When they start feeling the affects of aging, they will get on the bandwagon.

Also, if you can think of a reason for living just one more day, then you probably will have reasons for living another month, year, decade, century, millenia.....

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#4 Utnapishtim

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 11:36 AM

Illuminati

You are valuable because you are conscious and aware. Subjective selfawareness is ultimately the only thing of moral value in the universe in my opinion. Your existence does NOT have to be justified by its utility to others. This is a huge fallacy to my mind. Self awareness is an end in its itself not just a means to do useful stuff.

The little voice inside your mind that screams `I` is a candle that should not be allowed to be extinguished.

#5 DJS

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 04:50 PM

Utna, long time no see! :p How ya doin?

#6 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 05:29 PM

Are you looking for a *reason* Illuminatus, or is it simply treason to parochial minds to be in possession of such faculty for reason so as to examine the unthinkable; such as the very idea of contemplation for infinitude?

Illuminatus says:

Whilst talking to a fellow bioinformatition at 3 in the morning i discovered that many people, not only seeing my goal to live forever as impossible and selfish, they could not see a reason to live forever. My original thoughts were that to live forever is a survival instict, and for the sake of living. Yet noone seems convinced with my reasoning, and when i sit infront of a jury that are deciding to cull people because of overpopulation and choose why people should live or not, my "i was there when it started and i helped a bit" story might not work.


Survival is but one part, as another *spirit* of the mind is to create. It is all too often expressed as the darker, destructive form by all too many but still enough true creativity goes on to sustain humanity ad infinitum should we desire it. Why should the learning of wisdom and the coming of age for our species be wrong?

Why can't we grant ourselves the time and knowledge by which to better steward our own world?

For that to occur our species will need its records, but also its living *witness.* The creation of history is a direct vector for the power of memetic evolution and it is through our species that a paradigmatic shift from biologically based genetic evolution to an informational memetic form of evolution is taking place. Should fundamentalist resistance to such an idea surprise anyone?

Some of our species are already adapting (mutating) to a form more amenable for such a role within society.

It is also very obvious that we need to do a far better job at it than we are doing anyway. we need to stop depending on *freedom* as really just another word for *chance* (or evolution); but defined by the majority still as the *Will of God.*

We need to survive longer so as to address our species terrible short term memory for its own crimes. It is a tough job but somebody has to do it. [glasses]

Overpopulation is not a true threat as people will be freed from the strategy of poverty dependent higher procreativity that compensates for higher mortality. As we grow longer and wiser hopefully we will also acquire a different relationship to one another and our world. I suspect it is a primal fear of taking responsibility for this greater power that fosters the most fear among the fundamentalist mindset.

There are also the inevitable vagaries of the shifting socio-economic interdependence that contributes to anxiety but these should not be placed somehow on any exclusively Transhumanist interest in longevity. This misconduct has plagued the evolution of our species all along and relates more to how our social packs (tribes/clans) organized into *social structures*.

It is a global event that is occurring as a consequence of combined biological and social evolution driven by the global dissemination and impact of our species. Living long enough to learn from history so as to prevent its repetition is another part of the memetic drive to keep history *alive* through the form of first hand witness. This shift is inevitable and what matters more is making it healthy as opposed to wanton IMHO.

Selfish?

I believe it to be far more selfish of all too many to demand the right of selection for who lives and dies for others. Isn't it far worse to impose a death sentence through imposed ignorance of opportunity. What are we becoming?

A perverse Luddite culture of repressed puritans in response?

It is through the promulgation of ignorance that the people are ruled and this is a formula for tragedy or worse, probable disaster in the world humanity is creating. I live to learn and learn to live and each and everyday is a wonder to me. With every waking moment I experience the universe anew.


Hmmm, perhaps even asleep :p)

#7 tessler

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 02:31 PM

I must admit that I have no ambition to live in this world but would like to return to a better world with the help of others. At the moment the whole argument is academic but in my opinion people who have such ambitions should form their own closed society to avoid of being called imposible and selfish, getting ridiculed and more. And... how about working towards a better and fairer world where it is truly worthwhile to live. Perhaps a second Illuminati - Illuminatus.

#8 Lazarus Long

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 03:42 PM

At the moment the whole argument is academic but in my opinion people who have such ambitions should form their own closed society to avoid of being called impossible and selfish, getting ridiculed and more.


As far as ivory towers are concerned the subject has moved from merely scholarly debate to R&D. It is no longer simply *academic*.

Being too secretive makes transparency difficult, this promotes the worst among ourselves and simultaneously mitigates our opportunity to build upon the world as it is to attract the best and brightest to this goal.

Shall we call it a *Modern Grail*?

Whether tis holy or not probably is more about how it is received than how it comes to be but any and all will be the living record of all that was good and bad about it should we succeed. Hopefully that will included surviving our mistakes so as to not repeat them.

We are helping to build the living *Immortal Memory* for our species even beyond that of individuals and this memetic process is much more powerful than its parent meme of *history.* It is the reason that if there really were such things as *immortals* among us then perhaps it's their cowardice and irresponsibility that keeps them secetive and in hiding, or maybe their ill will toward us?

Well it is far more probable that they are simply mythic but it does appear to be true to human nature that we strive to make myths meaningful and real.

That is if humanity has it in its *self* to survive.

#9 Bruce Klein

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 07:54 PM

i discovered that many people, not only seeing my goal to live forever as impossible and selfish, they could not see a reason to live forever


The most compelling reason i find to live forever is that death=oblivion. The best way to convey this message is to ask what one remembers before birth.. this is what one should expected after death.

#10 tous

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 05:13 AM

I'm in the same boat as BJKlein pointed out.... Its the idea of not existing that bothers me. Sometimes I try to imagine what not exiting would be like.... kinda silly, but its scary. I guess I really want to live forever becuase I know what to expect from living... death is an uncertainty that Im really not willing to accept.

Sometimes I wished I did beleive in heaven/hell or some form of afterlife. Just becuase it would be so much easier to sleep at night. Because even if say I went to hell.....Id gladly choose it over oblivion.

Another good reason to live forever is advancement. Knowone can deney that everynow and then thoughout history one person has came along and changed everything. Its a shame that these people only had there biblical span to influence the world. Buy this I mean people like Enstein, Davinchy(not spelled right i think), Plato....etc.

#11 arrogantatheist

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 11:32 AM

If people dont' want to live forever they can age naturally and die, or just slit their wrists.

#12 eternaltraveler

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 07:13 PM

Not existing doesn't bother me. I am not afraid of death. What is there to be afraid of anyway?

Now a lack of fear of death is not something that means you want to die. I love life. I want to live as long as possible. But really, what is the point of living my life in fear?

#13 randolfe

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:13 AM

Illuminati


The little voice inside your mind that screams `I` is a candle that should not be allowed to be extinguished.


I agree that no "candle", especially "my candle", should be extinguished.

However, I was talking with a couple friends who were experiencing depression because romantic relationships had ended. Life had lost a lot of its meaning even though they were both atheists and immortalists. They realized those feelings would pass. However, I commenced thinking about how extended lifetimes (or immortality) would impact social structures like marriage.

Would marriage cease to be a contract "till death do us part"? Over time, most people change. Even after being together forty or fifty years, some people choose to separate. Would the current idea of "life partner" in marriage be changed to something akin to "current roommate"? How many couples would stay together for two-hundred years?

Perhaps, there would be certain relationships that not only endured but grew closer with much shared experience over the passing years. After spending two-hundred years sharing life experiences, you would have an awful lot in common.

I guess how you answer that question rests in your view of human psychology and relationships.

For that matter, would you grow more distant from your birth parents as many years passed? Would those first few years become less important as one's lifetime expanded?

#14 Illuminatusdarksoul

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 04:23 AM

thankyou for your replies, friends. the last quote about life partners is interesting also. i hope that the idea of loyalty and honour would grow with age. say, if i had stayed faithful to my girlfriend for a thousand years, and she also, that would be a bond so strong and of so much meaning, it would be the stuff of legend.

the only thing i should be worrying about now is getting a job, or work experience at somewhere that i can attune and develop my science skills on longevity research...

Ill.

#15 Illuminatusdarksoul

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:56 AM

I suppose that having an abstract reason for living is dangerous as for logical, jaded immortals, a goal that lies more towards faith or belief is quite dangerous. Thats why i think we should keep it simple in our reasoning to live forever, becuase an immortals life is filled with sorrow and hardship. Just like this life, but worse, mainly because it is longer.

i am writing a duology of novels, where the main immortal character loses the love of his life and only real friend, his other friend is too caught up in a computer world he has created for himself to live in. Realising that you have to face eternity alone, for sake of respect and honour to the ones you love could really screw you over. but immortals should have morals. though read any immortal or vampire or such like novel and the main characters never have morals, they either stick in the past and go crazy or move with the times and become diluted in nothingness.
i am looking forward to it personally, for i would like to think i could take the human morals and codes to a new level.

i really do babble sometimes. its 2.56 so thats why ok? ok?

#16 Infernity

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 10:48 AM

Interesting thread, I wonder how I didn't see it before...

I just came up to another reason people are afraid of immortality.

I think that people are having fun at the moment, and taking big risks because they are simply aware to the fact they will die and nothing matters, so they do what they want NOW, and once you tell them they can have the possibility of not dying- the automatically, are getting in some depress that they may not be able to take the risks they did and enjoy doing whatever, because that may kill them- and dying is something that didn't have to happen...


Now, to the original post,
First- no one ever existed or did anything or had a point, a term or a reason- once they're dead. (Same as Bruce claim- total oblivion).
And I believe that any piece of awareness worth living for- even if all you have is sorrow, since you always have hope, and a mind which shall be a waste for it to vanish, since there is no way to recreate.

Now, you are also right about it being simply a part of the survival ultimate goal, no one gets to a point in the life were it is enough...

People got used to around 90 as enough and that's it.

If a 1000 years ago, you'll tell them that they should aspire to live 90 years, they'd laugh at you and tell you that's impossible.

People always tells us about these individuals of wits, among the crowd of blinds- in the history, and never see the situation repeating itself now, in nowadays. They claim speeches as these blind people they talk about, and the individuals remain few, struggling on their own, to open their eyes.

Yours
~Infernity

#17 jaguar

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 02:19 PM

Kind of a silly question. They might as well kill themselves now if they don't want to. Less of course they're going on that suicide is a sin thing... but of course if they thought that way, not striving to be immortal would be a form of suicide. Cursed fools!

#18 randolfe

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Posted 12 May 2005 - 01:00 AM

I am older than most Immortalists. I'm 67 years old. My time is running out. I've spent far too much time (29 years) working at a boring job so I could "retire" in comfort.

I have financial security. However, now I am running out of time. I always wanted to be a radio interviewer. I played at making video documentaries and some I made in 1971 are getting attention today.

I want to have time to pursue "interviewing" (radio/television) and documentary making.

I always wanted to be a stand-up comic. I want time to develop routines and pursue that dream.

I started law school and then dropped out. That was a mistake. I want to become a lawyer and fight the good fights that need to be fought.

I have a unique person story to tell. I want to have time to write my autobiography--and a sequel if things go well!

I want to become a famous "blogger" and become involved in the debates of our day.

I have so many things to do and not enough time to do them. I just have to have a few more lifetimes!!

#19 th3hegem0n

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Posted 26 May 2005 - 06:58 PM

In response to the title of this topic, i'd like to point out (from an immortalist/nanotech point of view) that

A good reason to live forever?
is that same as -
A good reason to live?

except that when you attach 'forever' you are indicating that your reasons for living are more probably going to be satisfied.

Of course this is assuming some massively bad thing doesn't happen because of the way you live forever.

#20 Illuminatusdarksoul

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 01:58 AM

no it is not. if i wanted to live. i could call my girlfriend round tonight, the night before my last exam. we could watch a cool movie, eat ice cream, take drugs, get drunk and make babies. hedonism is living. stoicism is living forever.

#21 arrogantatheist

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 07:42 AM

Basically every person I have seen using the argument why would I even want to live forever... is thinking in religious terms, that they will be headed for heaven once they do die.

I ask them the question well if you get an infection that will kill you, would you use antibiotics to stay alive? They dont' respond, but over time they do join the cause of thinking extending life expectancy is a good thing.

#22 Infernity

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:59 PM

People are so firmly fixed on maximum 120 so it became a birthday wish! I mean in other words it's like wishing "I hope you'll die in you 120's..."

If our lifespan nowadays would have been 50 years old people would think that's crazy and immoral to live 100 years, and would probably react the same way to the individuals who aspire to get there.

People see those science fiction movies and do believe it might happen in the long term of years, but still somewhat do.

But when you come now and perform the beginning they are being so anti, and say this is all sci fi, and not real.

Makes me wonder- "when do you think it will come then?, don't you want to see it coming? how do you think things get there? simply 100 years and that is there? -wrong! we are developing things, technology is not a smaller mobile, but life-extension, flying out of the galaxy, making dreams come true!

People stop thing from occurring just because they claim that now it is ridiculous, that these are futuristic technologies only. But never get that this future must begin somewhere, and if we won't start it- it won't come!

As people think that if traveling in time could be possible we'd go to the future and see what technologies we had there. I suppose some will stand while will be doing nothing claim that it will be there in the X years, forgetting that them in the future had these means because they worked on them in the past! The future doesn't come if we don't make it come!

~Infernity

#23 randolfe

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 02:40 AM

illuminatus says:
" [no it is not. if i wanted to live. i could call my girlfriend round tonight, the night before my last exam. we could watch a cool movie, eat ice cream, take drugs, get drunk and make babies. hedonism is living. stoicism is living forever/]

It is disappointing to see this anti-sexual anti-pleasure strain of thought cropping up so often among Immortalists. Physical pleasure and/or sexual induldgence and Immortality is not an either/or proposition.

Stoicism, to me, is not living at all. It is living physically while being dead emotionally. I'd choose to live in the present, make love and have babies, rather than embrace denial of life's pleasures or stoicism.

Living is very much about pleasure. The more life, the greater the opportunity for pleasure. I choose more life and more pleasure!

#24 Infernity

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 03:01 PM

It is disappointing to see this anti-sexual anti-pleasure strain of thought cropping up so often among Immortalists. Physical pleasure and/or sexual induldgence and Immortality is not an either/or proposition.

Stoicism, to me, is not living at all. It is living physically while being dead emotionally. I'd choose to live in the present, make love and have babies, rather than embrace denial of life's pleasures or stoicism.

Living is very much about pleasure. The more life, the greater the opportunity for pleasure. I choose more life and more pleasure!

Well, it is reasonable, after you understand what you must do and focus on it.

Weak me.
I'm yet not like that.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

#25 Illuminatusdarksoul

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 07:14 PM

pleasure has risks undeniably and inextricably linked to it, i put my life before everything. Though i do see your point.

#26 tous

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 05:16 AM

Pie. O and Cake. Lots of it. Freinds. Family. Walking. Sleeping. Eating. Dogs. Music. Breathing. Fun. Exitment. Sex - lots of sex too(maby mix sex and Pie). Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc Etc... Etc X Infinty.

The point is life is something - its alot of things. Fun things - Happy things - Good tasety things. Exciteing things. Sad things. Hard things. But death is nothing. And what fun is nothing? Who in there right mind would rather have nothing then something. Im my opinion anyone who doesnt want to live forever (with the exeption of religious people who beleive in the after life or recylcleing of the soul or whatever becuase who know they may be right) are completly INSANE.

Why is it in todays society a person who commits sucide is insane but someone who doesnt want to live forever is not? They are in essence the same. The sucidal just thought he was ready now instead of waiting.

#27 Infernity

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 05:37 AM

Why is it in todays society a person who commits sucide is insane but someone who doesnt want to live forever is not? They are in essence the same. The sucidal just thought he was ready now instead of waiting.

I like you already [!;)]

I just had to say it, good to have you here.

-Infernity

#28 visionary

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 04:44 AM

Why is it in todays society a person who commits sucide is insane but someone who doesnt want to live forever is not? They are in essence the same. The sucidal just thought he was ready now instead of waiting.[/quote]

Right on, that's exacly why I wan't to live forever because I have no other choice since my religion says that if there is a God then I will go to hell for comiting suicide which is also what you do when you die not wanting to live forever. And since it could be even worse if there isn't a God because then after I die I will probably be doing nothing like just staring at blackness for who knows how long and feeling unconcious on the deepest level, whatever that's like and that's the farthest anyone can imagine no longer being alive in the physical world if there's no spiritual afterlife so it's most likely true if there isn't.

#29 Illuminatusdarksoul

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:27 PM

Undenyably you are all right, yet do you think the actual living and having fun part should come after we actually acheive immortality, and before that we should devote our lives to the conciencious devotion of becoming that which we so desire. A plan, a step by step plan, experiment after experiment, toward immortality and a viable solution to mortality. in this step by step process the first few experiments are the most important, yet i cannot see these being done. The world needs more scientists studying the right fields- this being a good reason for how to start to live forever. that and the search for a non selfish act, and to do everything, i suppose

#30 tous

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 11:59 PM

Heh.... but what if our calculations are wrong and we CANT reach immortallity in our life times.... would really suck not to have any fun along the way ;)




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