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Piracetam and Insomnia


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#1 dannyfc

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 08:35 PM


Insomnia is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, rather it takes me until 4:30am to 6am to fall asleep.

I've been taking 1200mg doses infrequently, sometimes twice a week on separate days, occasionally take 600mg instead. Every dose is in the morning, and I am massively impressed in it's effectiveness to increase my energy, enthusiasm and work ethic.

Only it seems to have really disrupts my sleeping pattern. Luckily I'm at University where I don't have any classes until after mid-day, but it is frustrating tossing and turning in bed for hours before finally getting some shut eye.

I HAVE had problems with sleep in the past, so maybe this is just a coincidence that I'm taking Piracetam at the same time of it occuring. Is there any link or experiences with Piracetam disrupting sleep or is it just coincidental?

Thanks
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#2 Saha

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:16 PM

It's certainly not a coincedence. Piracetam can cause insomnia, and "sleep disorders" listed as side-effects in the instruction(at least, in my country).
Personally, I had similar problems, and they become more worse when I take piracetam. Have you tried hypnotics? I found that melaxen improves my sleep, though I haven't yet tried taking it with piracetam.
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#3 kassem23

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:40 PM

It's probably explained by Piracetam's noradrenergic effects.. But could just as likely be the placebo, or another aggravating confounding factor, such as bad sleep-habits, use of other drugs, etc.

Edited by kassem23, 23 November 2010 - 10:41 PM.

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#4 dannyfc

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 11:48 PM

Ah well I suppose it makes sense considering how alert and 'wired' it makes me feel during the day. Shame as I do really like the stuff, will just have to use it less frequently I think.
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#5 SATANICAT

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 01:24 AM

Insomnia is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, rather it takes me until 4:30am to 6am to fall asleep.

I've been taking 1200mg doses infrequently, sometimes twice a week on separate days, occasionally take 600mg instead. Every dose is in the morning, and I am massively impressed in it's effectiveness to increase my energy, enthusiasm and work ethic.

Only it seems to have really disrupts my sleeping pattern. Luckily I'm at University where I don't have any classes until after mid-day, but it is frustrating tossing and turning in bed for hours before finally getting some shut eye.

I HAVE had problems with sleep in the past, so maybe this is just a coincidence that I'm taking Piracetam at the same time of it occuring. Is there any link or experiences with Piracetam disrupting sleep or is it just coincidental?

Thanks


If I were you, I'd just lay in bed reading until I can't keep my eyes open any longer, since you're in University and under the influence of nootropics.
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#6 dannyfc

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 05:44 AM

See, 5:44am here and still no sleep. =\
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#7 Neuronic

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 07:40 AM

Well I find piracetam particularly effective for narcolepsy. It significantly helps me to fight sleepiness, but it's never made it harder to sleep by any means. Are you drinking caffeine later in the day?
Piracetam usually increases the effects of caffeine, so your tolerance may be lower.
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#8 fritzer

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 10:25 AM

weird adderral makes me fallasleep, and i am using piracetam/oxi/ani right now and i tell you when it hits 8pm i have to fight to stay awake until 10. before the nootropics i would lay awake until 2am and wake every 2hrs

it is so weird how this stuff affects everyone so different. for me i find that i am more alert in the day and more tired at night... like by that time my head is fatigued sufficiently from thinking hard in the day or something

i added valerian when i started the racetams though, and i think an hour before bed 8g (4 caps) of valerian really gets the CNS is sleep mode
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#9 longevitynow

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 04:45 AM

No coincidence, I use piracetam to stay up, alert, and functional for a few more hours (but typically taken 6-10 pm, 200-600 mgs). It gives me vivid dreams and I can usually fall asleep by midnight, but may waken earlier than desired. If you really like it try adding some sublingual melatonin .3-3 mgs, right as you are putting the lights out. 5-HTP and Valerian are better for helping me stay asleep.
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#10 Tatsumaru

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:43 AM

Piracetam can screw circadian rhythm and sleep stages as well.
Why ?
Well basic understanding of neurotransmitters and their connection to sleep cycles will give you the answer.
Simply put:
High acetylcholine levels and low serotonin levels will result in a longer REM sleep and shorter Deep Sleep (Stages III and IV).
The opposite is true as well.

So when you take piracetam you could expect you acetylcholine levels to drop and your REM sleep will be compromised. Keep taking Piracetam and your whole sleeping rhythm will be compromised.
I'm on 4.8g/day piracetam and sometimes I feel like I am both tired and awake. Really crappy feeling. You go to your bed, your eyes ache but you roll around and you can't feel asleep.

All heavy Piracetam users should incorporate a couple of supplemental tweaks in order to maintain normal sleeping rhythms.
- As we all know - a good choline source - Alpha GPC and Galantamine taken together in the morning will reduce the likelihood of choline deficiency thus one would enjoy more REM sleep when needed.
- 5-HTP prior to going to bed will suppress REM sleep but will improve deep sleep. When REM is suppressed, a REM rebound usually occurs 4-5 after one has fallen asleep which is also ok.

Another thing that Piracetam may or may not do is to change brainwave activity. Going into BETA mode will definitely reduce the quality of your sleep. Listen to some THETA waves for 20 minutes before you go to bed and this will help a great deal.

Good luck
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#11 Raza

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

Piracetam can screw circadian rhythm and sleep stages as well.
Why ?
Well basic understanding of neurotransmitters and their connection to sleep cycles will give you the answer.
Simply put:
High acetylcholine levels and low serotonin levels will result in a longer REM sleep and shorter Deep Sleep (Stages III and IV).
The opposite is true as well.

Except that in my experience, piracetam clearly increases REM sleep, and so do serotonin precursors like tryptophan and 5-HTP. I'm not sure how generalize-able that rule of yours is.
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#12 Tatsumaru

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:22 PM

Try and read what I've actually written.
Serotonin precursors do suppress REM sleep which results in a REM rebound 4-5 hours past going asleep.

Piracetam depletes ach and ach is one of the most important neurotransmitters responsible for REM sleep. Which also may result in a REM rebound given the opportunity for ach to increase during sleep, for example if one is using Alpha GPC or CDP Choline or any other Choline source that reaches peak levels rather slowly.

If Piracetam is taken alone without adequate and properly timed choline supplementation, ach levels will be low and REM sleep will suffer.

You can find studies on the net showing that Piracetam both decreases and increases REM sleep time, depending on the dosage and supplementation.
Most people who report REM increase usually take very low doses like 800mg - 2000mg/day which is not nearly enough to cause much ach depletion, hence the REM sleep increase is more of a placebo effect and Piracetam has nothing to do with it.

If you read through most drugs that alter the ach homeostasis like Galantamine, Piracetam etc. you will see that all list insomnia as a side effect, but none of them list narcolepsy. Why ? Because Piracetam both acts as an adrenergic, and depletes ach which disrupts circadian rhythm by elevating norepinephrine.

And then you have the theory that piracetam changes the brainwave state which makes it hareder to fall sleep at all, especially at 4.8g+.day when 24 hours are not enough for all of it to go away. Plus headaches etc. etc.

Most people actually sleep much longer when taking larger Piracetam doses and feel more tired which is a sign that Piracetam definitely doesn't improve sleep quality and most users who think it does are low-dose users and are experiencing placebo or rem rebound.
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#13 Earth Citizen

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:16 AM

Hey, hope you guys don't mind me bumping up an old thread. I've been experimenting with piracetam+choline as well, and found it extremely effective as boosting my mental capacities. Unfortunately it seems to destroy my ability to sleep well. In the long run it's not worth it. I'm smarter and happier with no piracetam and a good night's sleep than with piracetam and sleep deprivation.

Is there a way to overcome the sleep issue. If so, can you explain it in a way I would understand (I have no knowledge about the science of sleep, other than the fact that REM sleep is dreaming.)
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#14 university

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

Earth Citizen, about what time you take and what dose? Together or separately?
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#15 OpaqueMind

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

I'm interested in this too. Whenever I take a racetam, my sleep is disrupted for days afterward. This is from a single dose. Maybe we are near the edge of the excitation/inhibition balance and can't push the glutamatergic system far without disrupting the ability to rest. Do you have insomnia or poor sleep usually? How long after taking piracetam does the effect on sleep persist?
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#16 Earth Citizen

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

I do not have insomnia or bad sleep usually. When I take piracetam I usually take 1/4 teaspoon with 1/4 teaspoon choline bitarate. I've only dosed a few days because I noticed the effect on my sleep. When I did take it I took 1 dose around 9 or 10, 1 dose around 2 or 3. Once I also took a dose around 7. I slept poorly that night.

In case its relevant, I also take the antidepressant Seroquel.
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#17 university

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:55 PM

Try to take piracetam every 3-4 hour, starting on an empty stomach. I don't take piracetam later than 5 pm unless I have busy day in work or exercises. Choline take after main meals, last dose I take around 8-9 pm.
Since I do this dosage I have no problem falling asleep.
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#18 OpaqueMind

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:59 PM

I vaguely recall reading a few reports about the sleep disturbances abating after an a period of a few weeks of consistent dosing in some people. Can anyone speak to this?
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#19 university

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:07 PM

From my own experience, when I take the last dose too late, and I'm not able to utilize my energy right (physically, mentally), I can have the disturbances regardless of the length of the cycle.
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#20 OpaqueMind

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

I do not have insomnia or bad sleep usually. When I take piracetam I usually take 1/4 teaspoon with 1/4 teaspoon choline bitarate. I've only dosed a few days because I noticed the effect on my sleep. When I did take it I took 1 dose around 9 or 10, 1 dose around 2 or 3. Once I also took a dose around 7. I slept poorly that night.

In case its relevant, I also take the antidepressant Seroquel.


It may be relevant yeah. Seroquel is generally an antagonist at many neurotransmitter sites, whereas piracetam is a positive allosteric modulator, meaning they are in some senses mechanisms with contradictory outcomes. Perhaps the mechanisms are interfering, or perhaps your brain is generally in a very excited state and is pushed over the edge by piracetam. I'm not a doctor, but seroquel seems like a pretty damn heavy-handed approach to depression... if ever there were anti-nootropics, then anti-psychotics, in non-psychotic individuals, are definitely they.

From my own experience, when I take the last dose too late, and I'm not able to utilize my energy right (physically, mentally), I can have the disturbances regardless of the length of the cycle.


So do you find the difference between sleep disturbances and lack thereof is down to how hard you work mentally and physically while on a piracetam regimen?
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#21 university

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:15 PM

Only if I take the last dose too late. I need then get tired a physically or mentally, eg solving difficult stats problems or learning programming.
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#22 Complexology

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:10 AM

I stopped taking piracetam because I have trouble sleeping. I never had insomnia as severe as this year, and I am convinced piracetam had something to do with it.

 

Though I used to consider having insomnia at 6 hours sleep a day. 

 

Today I slept 3 hours, the last 3 days I slept 5 hours.

 

I also have emotional issues but that's natural, like irritability. I realized when I start to trigger oxytocin, the love molecule to tackle the fear molecule, which has it's association with irritability. That my sleep improves drastically. But that's a personal thing.

 

Before bed

I take magnesium 400mg

Fish oil 120mg dha 180mg epa and 1000mg fish oil

Vitamin b complex to increase sleeping

And I run 1500m

 

Though with all this sleeping still tough.

 

I dunno, if piracetam did something with my brain. Though last time I used it was 8 days a go, 3 days in a row. I feel piracetam can only taken by healthy individuals. I did suffer a psychosis in 2012. So maybe that has something to with my sensitivity to this drug.


Edited by Complexology, 25 June 2014 - 07:11 AM.

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#23 Geoffrey

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:24 PM

Did you take choline with piracetam? As a poster said above, acetylcholine is important in REM-phase sleep, so you might have altered your choline balance/stores if you weren't taking pira with choline. It's very odd, as I wrote in another thread, piracetam makes me consistently sleepy, to such an extent I can use it like a sleeping pill at bed-time. The half-life of pira means it should be out of your system pretty completely after 8 days, unless you were taking very high doses to begin with. Is it a good idea to run 1500m before bed? I'd have thought that alone would keep you awake due to all the adrenaline pumping around your system.
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#24 Complexology

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 11:55 AM

Did you take choline with piracetam? As a poster said above, acetylcholine is important in REM-phase sleep, so you might have altered your choline balance/stores if you weren't taking pira with choline. It's very odd, as I wrote in another thread, piracetam makes me consistently sleepy, to such an extent I can use it like a sleeping pill at bed-time. The half-life of pira means it should be out of your system pretty completely after 8 days, unless you were taking very high doses to begin with. Is it a good idea to run 1500m before bed? I'd have thought that alone would keep you awake due to all the adrenaline pumping around your system

 

 

I never ever took piracetam without choline - alpha gpc. I take atleast 10% choline with piracetam. I take 300mg choline and max 3000mg piracetam. Never exceeded limit of 3000mg.

 

 

Solved the issue with mirtazapine 

 

I use 3.75mg mirtazapine 2 hours before bed, to sleep early. Plus I use magnesium for better REM sleep.

 

I sleep 9 to 10,5 hours, and my cognitive function is amazing. Greater processing power, I can process huge amount of information.

 

I am a workaholic, and do high demanded senior executive manager work, so I need to high-level thinking. And make multiple connections.

 

When I get out of bed, I can work 10 hours high level cognitive functioning instead of 8 hours with 6 to 8 hours sleep. 

 

Rem sleep for improved functioning what do you want more.


Edited by Complexology, 29 June 2014 - 11:56 AM.

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