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Piracetam and Insomnia


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20 replies to this topic

#1 dannyfc

  • Location:England

Posted 23 November 2010 - 08:35 PM


Insomnia is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, rather it takes me until 4:30am to 6am to fall asleep.

I've been taking 1200mg doses infrequently, sometimes twice a week on separate days, occasionally take 600mg instead. Every dose is in the morning, and I am massively impressed in it's effectiveness to increase my energy, enthusiasm and work ethic.

Only it seems to have really disrupts my sleeping pattern. Luckily I'm at University where I don't have any classes until after mid-day, but it is frustrating tossing and turning in bed for hours before finally getting some shut eye.

I HAVE had problems with sleep in the past, so maybe this is just a coincidence that I'm taking Piracetam at the same time of it occuring. Is there any link or experiences with Piracetam disrupting sleep or is it just coincidental?

Thanks
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#2 Saha Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:16 PM

It's certainly not a coincedence. Piracetam can cause insomnia, and "sleep disorders" listed as side-effects in the instruction(at least, in my country).
Personally, I had similar problems, and they become more worse when I take piracetam. Have you tried hypnotics? I found that melaxen improves my sleep, though I haven't yet tried taking it with piracetam.
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#3 kassem23 Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Odense, Denmark

Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:40 PM

It's probably explained by Piracetam's noradrenergic effects.. But could just as likely be the placebo, or another aggravating confounding factor, such as bad sleep-habits, use of other drugs, etc.

Edited by kassem23, 23 November 2010 - 10:41 PM.

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#4 dannyfc Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:England

Posted 23 November 2010 - 11:48 PM

Ah well I suppose it makes sense considering how alert and 'wired' it makes me feel during the day. Shame as I do really like the stuff, will just have to use it less frequently I think.
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#5 SATANICAT Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Texas

Posted 24 November 2010 - 01:24 AM

Insomnia is a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, rather it takes me until 4:30am to 6am to fall asleep.

I've been taking 1200mg doses infrequently, sometimes twice a week on separate days, occasionally take 600mg instead. Every dose is in the morning, and I am massively impressed in it's effectiveness to increase my energy, enthusiasm and work ethic.

Only it seems to have really disrupts my sleeping pattern. Luckily I'm at University where I don't have any classes until after mid-day, but it is frustrating tossing and turning in bed for hours before finally getting some shut eye.

I HAVE had problems with sleep in the past, so maybe this is just a coincidence that I'm taking Piracetam at the same time of it occuring. Is there any link or experiences with Piracetam disrupting sleep or is it just coincidental?

Thanks


If I were you, I'd just lay in bed reading until I can't keep my eyes open any longer, since you're in University and under the influence of nootropics.
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#6 dannyfc Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:England

Posted 24 November 2010 - 05:44 AM

See, 5:44am here and still no sleep. =\
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#7 Neuronic Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

Posted 24 November 2010 - 07:40 AM

Well I find piracetam particularly effective for narcolepsy. It significantly helps me to fight sleepiness, but it's never made it harder to sleep by any means. Are you drinking caffeine later in the day?
Piracetam usually increases the effects of caffeine, so your tolerance may be lower.
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#8 fritzer Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Alabama

Posted 24 November 2010 - 10:25 AM

weird adderral makes me fallasleep, and i am using piracetam/oxi/ani right now and i tell you when it hits 8pm i have to fight to stay awake until 10. before the nootropics i would lay awake until 2am and wake every 2hrs

it is so weird how this stuff affects everyone so different. for me i find that i am more alert in the day and more tired at night... like by that time my head is fatigued sufficiently from thinking hard in the day or something

i added valerian when i started the racetams though, and i think an hour before bed 8g (4 caps) of valerian really gets the CNS is sleep mode
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#9 longevitynow Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Mexico City

Posted 25 November 2010 - 04:45 AM

No coincidence, I use piracetam to stay up, alert, and functional for a few more hours (but typically taken 6-10 pm, 200-600 mgs). It gives me vivid dreams and I can usually fall asleep by midnight, but may waken earlier than desired. If you really like it try adding some sublingual melatonin .3-3 mgs, right as you are putting the lights out. 5-HTP and Valerian are better for helping me stay asleep.
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#10 Tatsumaru Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Aruba

Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:43 AM

Piracetam can screw circadian rhythm and sleep stages as well.
Why ?
Well basic understanding of neurotransmitters and their connection to sleep cycles will give you the answer.
Simply put:
High acetylcholine levels and low serotonin levels will result in a longer REM sleep and shorter Deep Sleep (Stages III and IV).
The opposite is true as well.

So when you take piracetam you could expect you acetylcholine levels to drop and your REM sleep will be compromised. Keep taking Piracetam and your whole sleeping rhythm will be compromised.
I'm on 4.8g/day piracetam and sometimes I feel like I am both tired and awake. Really crappy feeling. You go to your bed, your eyes ache but you roll around and you can't feel asleep.

All heavy Piracetam users should incorporate a couple of supplemental tweaks in order to maintain normal sleeping rhythms.
- As we all know - a good choline source - Alpha GPC and Galantamine taken together in the morning will reduce the likelihood of choline deficiency thus one would enjoy more REM sleep when needed.
- 5-HTP prior to going to bed will suppress REM sleep but will improve deep sleep. When REM is suppressed, a REM rebound usually occurs 4-5 after one has fallen asleep which is also ok.

Another thing that Piracetam may or may not do is to change brainwave activity. Going into BETA mode will definitely reduce the quality of your sleep. Listen to some THETA waves for 20 minutes before you go to bed and this will help a great deal.

Good luck
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#11 Raza Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

Piracetam can screw circadian rhythm and sleep stages as well.
Why ?
Well basic understanding of neurotransmitters and their connection to sleep cycles will give you the answer.
Simply put:
High acetylcholine levels and low serotonin levels will result in a longer REM sleep and shorter Deep Sleep (Stages III and IV).
The opposite is true as well.

Except that in my experience, piracetam clearly increases REM sleep, and so do serotonin precursors like tryptophan and 5-HTP. I'm not sure how generalize-able that rule of yours is.
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#12 Tatsumaru Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Aruba

Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:22 PM

Try and read what I've actually written.
Serotonin precursors do suppress REM sleep which results in a REM rebound 4-5 hours past going asleep.

Piracetam depletes ach and ach is one of the most important neurotransmitters responsible for REM sleep. Which also may result in a REM rebound given the opportunity for ach to increase during sleep, for example if one is using Alpha GPC or CDP Choline or any other Choline source that reaches peak levels rather slowly.

If Piracetam is taken alone without adequate and properly timed choline supplementation, ach levels will be low and REM sleep will suffer.

You can find studies on the net showing that Piracetam both decreases and increases REM sleep time, depending on the dosage and supplementation.
Most people who report REM increase usually take very low doses like 800mg - 2000mg/day which is not nearly enough to cause much ach depletion, hence the REM sleep increase is more of a placebo effect and Piracetam has nothing to do with it.

If you read through most drugs that alter the ach homeostasis like Galantamine, Piracetam etc. you will see that all list insomnia as a side effect, but none of them list narcolepsy. Why ? Because Piracetam both acts as an adrenergic, and depletes ach which disrupts circadian rhythm by elevating norepinephrine.

And then you have the theory that piracetam changes the brainwave state which makes it hareder to fall sleep at all, especially at 4.8g+.day when 24 hours are not enough for all of it to go away. Plus headaches etc. etc.

Most people actually sleep much longer when taking larger Piracetam doses and feel more tired which is a sign that Piracetam definitely doesn't improve sleep quality and most users who think it does are low-dose users and are experiencing placebo or rem rebound.
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#13 Earth Citizen Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Ontario, Canada.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:16 AM

Hey, hope you guys don't mind me bumping up an old thread. I've been experimenting with piracetam+choline as well, and found it extremely effective as boosting my mental capacities. Unfortunately it seems to destroy my ability to sleep well. In the long run it's not worth it. I'm smarter and happier with no piracetam and a good night's sleep than with piracetam and sleep deprivation.

Is there a way to overcome the sleep issue. If so, can you explain it in a way I would understand (I have no knowledge about the science of sleep, other than the fact that REM sleep is dreaming.)
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#14 university Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Poland

Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

Earth Citizen, about what time you take and what dose? Together or separately?
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#15 OpaqueMind Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:UK
  • no

Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

I'm interested in this too. Whenever I take a racetam, my sleep is disrupted for days afterward. This is from a single dose. Maybe we are near the edge of the excitation/inhibition balance and can't push the glutamatergic system far without disrupting the ability to rest. Do you have insomnia or poor sleep usually? How long after taking piracetam does the effect on sleep persist?
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#16 Earth Citizen Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Ontario, Canada.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

I do not have insomnia or bad sleep usually. When I take piracetam I usually take 1/4 teaspoon with 1/4 teaspoon choline bitarate. I've only dosed a few days because I noticed the effect on my sleep. When I did take it I took 1 dose around 9 or 10, 1 dose around 2 or 3. Once I also took a dose around 7. I slept poorly that night.

In case its relevant, I also take the antidepressant Seroquel.
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#17 university Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Poland

Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:55 PM

Try to take piracetam every 3-4 hour, starting on an empty stomach. I don't take piracetam later than 5 pm unless I have busy day in work or exercises. Choline take after main meals, last dose I take around 8-9 pm.
Since I do this dosage I have no problem falling asleep.
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#18 OpaqueMind Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:UK
  • no

Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:59 PM

I vaguely recall reading a few reports about the sleep disturbances abating after an a period of a few weeks of consistent dosing in some people. Can anyone speak to this?
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#19 university Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Poland

Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:07 PM

From my own experience, when I take the last dose too late, and I'm not able to utilize my energy right (physically, mentally), I can have the disturbances regardless of the length of the cycle.
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#20 OpaqueMind Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:UK
  • no

Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

I do not have insomnia or bad sleep usually. When I take piracetam I usually take 1/4 teaspoon with 1/4 teaspoon choline bitarate. I've only dosed a few days because I noticed the effect on my sleep. When I did take it I took 1 dose around 9 or 10, 1 dose around 2 or 3. Once I also took a dose around 7. I slept poorly that night.

In case its relevant, I also take the antidepressant Seroquel.


It may be relevant yeah. Seroquel is generally an antagonist at many neurotransmitter sites, whereas piracetam is a positive allosteric modulator, meaning they are in some senses mechanisms with contradictory outcomes. Perhaps the mechanisms are interfering, or perhaps your brain is generally in a very excited state and is pushed over the edge by piracetam. I'm not a doctor, but seroquel seems like a pretty damn heavy-handed approach to depression... if ever there were anti-nootropics, then anti-psychotics, in non-psychotic individuals, are definitely they.

From my own experience, when I take the last dose too late, and I'm not able to utilize my energy right (physically, mentally), I can have the disturbances regardless of the length of the cycle.


So do you find the difference between sleep disturbances and lack thereof is down to how hard you work mentally and physically while on a piracetam regimen?
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#21 university Re: Piracetam and Insomnia

  • Location:Poland

Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:15 PM

Only if I take the last dose too late. I need then get tired a physically or mentally, eg solving difficult stats problems or learning programming.
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