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Lithium orotate. Woh... Duuude


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#1 Yearningforyears

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:35 PM


This is some weird stuff.
About half an hour ago I took a 5 mg tablet for the first time. Within minutes I could feel something but thought that it was just some kind of placebo effect because of novelty nervosity.
Yet... Here I am sitting a bit apathetic in my sofa. Oblivious to the world... Brain has been antipsychoticesque foggy and spaced out for at least half an hour but now it´s starting to wear off.
The feeling was just as powerful as a pharmaceutical would provide. Did not expect this, but this is extremely promising. Perhaps cutting a tablet in half is the way to go.
Was a bit sceptic at first because I thought that high blood serum levels are necessary to treat bipolar symtpoms, so this low dose would in that regard be more of a dietary supplement rather than a drug. Well... Guess everybody is different ey O_o



#2 aLurker

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 01:16 PM

Wait... what? How is foggy apathy promising? Sure it seems effective... but not really in a good way, from your description it sounds more like side effective.

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#3 Yearningforyears

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 02:48 PM

Yes it might have sounded contradictory =)
I feel that this initial response was promising in the way that splitting the tablet and dosing twice daily might be enough in reducing manic agitation etc, while not posing a substantial toxicity risk.
So this would mean that some benefits might be reaped by using l-tryptophan (not feeling social anxiety etc), while lowering the chance of switching into uncontrollable hypomania
by supplementing with a low dose lithium orotate.
I believe there might be some risk of switching with aniracetam as well, but giving up on that feels like giving up on breathing almost. That extra edge is great to have.



#4 Delta Gamma

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 06:07 PM

I would just see a psychiatrist to get lithium salts rather that supplement them on my own, lithium has a notoriously small therapeutic window in regards to nephrotoxicity. It also seems like it would be a good idea to get "uncontrollable hypomania" checked out by a professional with years of training and the ability to have your plasma levels of lithium checked.

Not to say you aren't on the right track, but its safer to err on the side of caution.

#5 tlm884

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 06:20 PM

I would just see a psychiatrist to get lithium salts rather that supplement them on my own, lithium has a notoriously small therapeutic window in regards to nephrotoxicity. It also seems like it would be a good idea to get "uncontrollable hypomania" checked out by a professional with years of training and the ability to have your plasma levels of lithium checked.

Not to say you aren't on the right track, but its safer to err on the side of caution.


The dosing of lithium orotate is well BELOW the therapeutic window that psychiatrists use for treatments of mood disorders. The biggest effect from low dose lithium orotate will most likely be increases neurogenisis.

#6 Delta Gamma

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:21 PM

I would just see a psychiatrist to get lithium salts rather that supplement them on my own, lithium has a notoriously small therapeutic window in regards to nephrotoxicity. It also seems like it would be a good idea to get "uncontrollable hypomania" checked out by a professional with years of training and the ability to have your plasma levels of lithium checked.

Not to say you aren't on the right track, but its safer to err on the side of caution.


The dosing of lithium orotate is well BELOW the therapeutic window that psychiatrists use for treatments of mood disorders. The biggest effect from low dose lithium orotate will most likely be increases neurogenisis.


Lithium can accumulate in the body, so if he keeps a steady dosing routine without having his levels checked he could run into some problems. Though, upon rechecking my sources 5-20mg/kg rather than 5-20mg total is the dosing range for bipolar disorders. Still it would be wise to adopt some sort of serum level monitoring if he plans on keeping it up long term (something like once every few months).

Edited by Delta Gamma, 11 December 2010 - 10:21 PM.


#7 Bghead8che

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:24 PM

This is some weird stuff.
About half an hour ago I took a 5 mg tablet for the first time. Within minutes I could feel something but thought that it was just some kind of placebo effect because of novelty nervosity.
Yet... Here I am sitting a bit apathetic in my sofa. Oblivious to the world... Brain has been antipsychoticesque foggy and spaced out for at least half an hour but now it´s starting to wear off.
The feeling was just as powerful as a pharmaceutical would provide. Did not expect this, but this is extremely promising. Perhaps cutting a tablet in half is the way to go.
Was a bit sceptic at first because I thought that high blood serum levels are necessary to treat bipolar symtpoms, so this low dose would in that regard be more of a dietary supplement rather than a drug. Well... Guess everybody is different ey O_o


Placebo effect. If Lithium was thought to make one "energized" you would be reporting how it made you feel hyper and strung out. My .02 cents.

-Brian
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#8 pycnogenol

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:50 PM

This is some weird stuff.
About half an hour ago I took a 5 mg tablet for the first time. Within minutes I could feel something but thought that it was just some kind of placebo effect because of novelty nervosity.
Yet... Here I am sitting a bit apathetic in my sofa. Oblivious to the world... Brain has been antipsychoticesque foggy and spaced out for at least half an hour but now it´s starting to wear off.
The feeling was just as powerful as a pharmaceutical would provide. Did not expect this, but this is extremely promising. Perhaps cutting a tablet in half is the way to go.
Was a bit sceptic at first because I thought that high blood serum levels are necessary to treat bipolar symtpoms, so this low dose would in that regard be more of a dietary supplement rather than a drug. Well... Guess everybody is different ey O_o


Placebo effect. If Lithium was thought to make one "energized" you would be reporting how it made you feel hyper and strung out. My .02 cents.

-Brian


I heartily concur.

Nicholas - what else are you taking besides the lithium orotate?

#9 niner

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:27 AM

The dosing of lithium orotate is well BELOW the therapeutic window that psychiatrists use for treatments of mood disorders. The biggest effect from low dose lithium orotate will most likely be increases neurogenisis.

Lithium can accumulate in the body, so if he keeps a steady dosing routine without having his levels checked he could run into some problems. Though, upon rechecking my sources 5-20mg/kg rather than 5-20mg total is the dosing range for bipolar disorders. Still it would be wise to adopt some sort of serum level monitoring if he plans on keeping it up long term (something like once every few months).

So, assuming a 70kg human, you think that monitoring is required for a dose that is 1/70th to 1/280th of a therapeutic dose? What about all those people who live in areas where the water is high in lithium?

As for the OP's report being psychosomatic in nature; perhaps, but he's not the first person around here to note such effects. There was a thread a while back about a dosing protocol that avoids the side effects. I've been taking 5mg of the orotate for a while now, and haven't noticed anything acute.

#10 Delta Gamma

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 02:40 AM

So, assuming a 70kg human, you think that monitoring is required for a dose that is 1/70th to 1/280th of a therapeutic dose? What about all those people who live in areas where the water is high in lithium?

As for the OP's report being psychosomatic in nature; perhaps, but he's not the first person around here to note such effects. There was a thread a while back about a dosing protocol that avoids the side effects. I've been taking 5mg of the orotate for a while now, and haven't noticed anything acute.



I doubt it, the concentrations in "high lithium areas" in this study is 170um/L at most. Assuming the person drank 8 cups of water a day, it would be less than a milligram daily from the water. The OP is using quite a bit over the tentative RDA of 1mg elemental lithium per day. But, upon reviewing a few papers on lithium it appears that the OP would have to have a very poor excretion rate for lithium or live in a area with a freakishly high level of lithium in the water for it to be a problem.

At the ~2.5mg a day the OP is suggesting taking daily I really can't see any sort of toxic reaction, as the toxic levels are in the tens of mg/kg range.

#11 Yearningforyears

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:17 PM

I heartily concur.

Nicholas - what else are you taking besides the lithium orotate?
[/quote]


Right now I have decided to take a break with all the supplements except for 2.5 mg lithium orotate daily. I think it´s better to not toy around with aniracetam and various things, since there might be some interactions with the lithium. I wonder if aniracetam taken together would pose a risk for the kidneys long term.
But you guys are right. I have to go see a doctor about this to get blood levels checked. If something is this effective, then it could be potentially hazardous too.
Keeping fingers crossed that I am just a good responder.
The doctor will probably think that I am a total nut using this on my own instead of their own fancy hundred dollar "cures". Hopefully they will hear me out.

#12 tlm884

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:52 PM

I heartily concur.

Nicholas - what else are you taking besides the lithium orotate?



Right now I have decided to take a break with all the supplements except for 2.5 mg lithium orotate daily. I think it´s better to not toy around with aniracetam and various things, since there might be some interactions with the lithium. I wonder if aniracetam taken together would pose a risk for the kidneys long term.
But you guys are right. I have to go see a doctor about this to get blood levels checked. If something is this effective, then it could be potentially hazardous too.
Keeping fingers crossed that I am just a good responder.
The doctor will probably think that I am a total nut using this on my own instead of their own fancy hundred dollar "cures". Hopefully they will hear me out.



Your doctor's will think your nuts. As from a medical point of view, lithium can be a danagerous drug to mess around with, the side effects can be terrible, and most patients arent compliant with lithium therapy anyhow.


As well, if you live in the states can't you get blood testing done without a doctors requisition?

#13 Thorsten

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:11 PM

I stopped Lithium it dulled too much in my case. Thorsten the dullard was not me. Ah well :laugh:

#14 rwac

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:39 PM

I stopped Lithium it dulled too much in my case. Thorsten the dullard was not me. Ah well :laugh:


Orotate has a dulling effect that aspartate doesn't have, but YMMV.

I had a weird experience the first time I took lithium. I was feeling apathetic for a bit, but then I actually managed to amuse myself for half an hour by making faces in the bathroom mirror. Very bizarre and never repeated.

Edited by rwac, 14 December 2010 - 01:40 PM.

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#15 tlm884

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:46 PM

I stopped Lithium it dulled too much in my case. Thorsten the dullard was not me. Ah well :laugh:


Orotate has a dulling effect that aspartate doesn't have, but YMMV.

I had a weird experience the first time I took lithium. I was feeling apathetic for a bit, but then I actually managed to amuse myself for half an hour by making faces in the bathroom mirror. Very bizarre and never repeatedi e.


I entertain myself in the bathroom mirror on a regular basis... and I am not on lithium. What does this mean?
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#16 Yearningforyears

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:12 PM

Quick update. Dropping lithium tomorrow because of an upcoming blood test in six days. I have never in my life (as far as I can recall) felt this good and stable for such a long time (almost a week with no anxiety or depression issues). I never would have guessed that euthymic mood would feel this nice.
Lithium: It´s good for you. It´s NATURAL ;)


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#17 kikai93

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 09:50 AM

I would just see a psychiatrist to get lithium salts rather that supplement them on my own, lithium has a notoriously small therapeutic window in regards to nephrotoxicity. It also seems like it would be a good idea to get "uncontrollable hypomania" checked out by a professional with years of training and the ability to have your plasma levels of lithium checked.

Not to say you aren't on the right track, but its safer to err on the side of caution.


All lithium is not created equal, and studies suggest less orotate need be used than carbonate to achieve therapeutic effects. This may or may not be due to either bioavailability or impeded kidney clearance.
That said, therapeutic doses of lithium for treatment of bipolar disorder and the like are only slightly lower than toxic levels of lithium. I would consider it as a last resort if I had those conditions, not first line.
I agree with previous posters concerning placebo effect and the OP's experience. That's just not enough lithium to achieve that strident an effect without the aid of expectations.

#18 VampIyer

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 08:30 AM

5-10mg of Li Orotate nightly is not a cause for concern, generally. And yes, your Doctor will (probably) think you are nuts for wanting to monitor your Lithium levels on such a low dose (and many would just frown upon such supplements - psychs usually prescribe 600-1800mg of Li Carbonate - which rendered me lethargic and crashed my already low thyroid hormone levels (an effect of Lithium at higher doses)). It helps to arrive prepared, having done your research, so that you can have a constructive discussion. If the doctor is not receptive to this, and you've approached him/her tactfully (I've learned that simply holding a sizable stack of printed research is a bit intimidating - now I just bring the necessary notes and a bibliography / citation list), then this person simply isn't the right doctor for that particular subject matter... (and this will apply most of the time, in my experience).

Lithium can decrease Norepinephrine, and thus I use it at night to help with sleep. I take it about 5 days per week. It can be used during the daytime, but having low cortisol, I need that daytime norepinephrine. At 5mg, it does not seem to negatively impact my thyroid hormone levels (I have my blood tested every 2 months out of necessity).

If you feel any more sleepy and/or fatigued the next day, then you're taking too much Lithium.

Other than that... if you don't feel well on it, then stop taking it... if you feel better, then continue, possibly pausing for a break a few times per month.

Edited by VampIyer, 19 December 2010 - 08:31 AM.


#19 shp5

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 07:43 AM

Placebo effect. If Lithium was thought to make one "energized" you would be reporting how it made you feel hyper and strung out. My .02 cents.

-Brian


you should read the initial post again. he talks about being oblivious to the world, and not about being energized.


and yes, 5mg lithium (i take lithium aspartate) can do this to you. i use it to get to sleep, it knocks me out nearly as well as 5mg zolpidem (ambien).

#20 Thorsten

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 11:04 AM

Is there a relationship between norepinephrine and cortisol???

I ask this because I usually notice my rumminative depressive symptons are sky high first thing in the morning. St Johns Wort actually helped me for a while but in the end it started making me feel worse and I know it has interactions with cortisol. I suspect my cortisol is maybe too high first thing in the morning and is probably a side effect of my depression. St Johns was probably making this much worse as I was on the verge of murdering people on that stuff - extreme anger. Upon stopping it I noticed how much calmer I was but I then had to also deal with the ensuing withdrawl from the St Johns, cold turkey (a bit crabby for the following days).
Recently though I have trialled it again but added 5mg of Lithium Orotate to the mix. All the benefits of St Johns have returned and it seems Lithium is smoothing it out somehow. I know St Johns blocks the re-uptake of norepinephrine and also upregualtes 5HT1A (which also indirectly upregulates cortisol if I'm not mistaken)... So what Lithium does here to help the situation is just specualtion for me. Is there anybody here who has any ideas??? The one downside of this combo though is reduced libido.

Edited by Thorsten, 07 May 2011 - 11:25 AM.


#21 yoyo

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 12:18 PM

Is there a relationship between norepinephrine and cortisol???


yes, there are. both are part of the stress response, but its all super complicated and absent a very specific question i would avoid researching it.

I ask this because I usually notice my rumminative depressive symptons are sky high first thing in the morning. St Johns Wort actually helped me for a while but in the end it started making me feel worse and I know it has interactions with cortisol. I suspect my cortisol is maybe too high first thing in the morning and is probably a side effect of my depression. St Johns was probably making this much worse as I was on the verge of murdering people on that stuff - extreme anger. Upon stopping it I noticed how much calmer I was but I then had to also deal with the ensuing withdrawl from the St Johns, cold turkey (a bit crabby for the following days).
Recently though I have trialled it again but added 5mg of Lithium Orotate to the mix. All the benefits of St Johns have returned and it seems Lithium is smoothing it out somehow. I know St Johns blocks the re-uptake of norepinephrine and also upregualtes 5HT1A (which also indirectly upregulates cortisol if I'm not mistaken)... So what Lithium does here to help the situation is just specualtion for me. Is there anybody here who has any ideas??? The one downside of this combo though is reduced libido.


at these low doses the only thing i have seen evidence for is the inhibition of gsk-3, which causes neurogenesis.

i'm not really sure what you are trying to treat, irritability maybe?

Also, Li doesn't accumulate.

#22 Thorsten

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:31 PM

Is there a relationship between norepinephrine and cortisol???


yes, there are. both are part of the stress response, but its all super complicated and absent a very specific question i would avoid researching it.

I ask this because I usually notice my rumminative depressive symptons are sky high first thing in the morning. St Johns Wort actually helped me for a while but in the end it started making me feel worse and I know it has interactions with cortisol. I suspect my cortisol is maybe too high first thing in the morning and is probably a side effect of my depression. St Johns was probably making this much worse as I was on the verge of murdering people on that stuff - extreme anger. Upon stopping it I noticed how much calmer I was but I then had to also deal with the ensuing withdrawl from the St Johns, cold turkey (a bit crabby for the following days).
Recently though I have trialled it again but added 5mg of Lithium Orotate to the mix. All the benefits of St Johns have returned and it seems Lithium is smoothing it out somehow. I know St Johns blocks the re-uptake of norepinephrine and also upregualtes 5HT1A (which also indirectly upregulates cortisol if I'm not mistaken)... So what Lithium does here to help the situation is just specualtion for me. Is there anybody here who has any ideas??? The one downside of this combo though is reduced libido.


at these low doses the only thing i have seen evidence for is the inhibition of gsk-3, which causes neurogenesis.

i'm not really sure what you are trying to treat, irritability maybe?

Also, Li doesn't accumulate.


Good question.. I suppose when at baseline i'm a slightly nervous individual, I am overreactive to stress and bite quite easily. I get angry towards people around me who piss me off. I get very down and depressed. I seem to respond well to drugs/supplements that increase serotonin. SSRI's make me feel great but I go a bit manic on them. It doesn't seem to matter which ones I try they all seem to have this manic edge for me.
To be honest I'll never give up until I do find something/a combination that works for me because otherwise I may as well be mentally disabled. It's that important, well for me anyway.

#23 yoyo

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 05:27 AM

I wouldn't try to guess what neurotransmitter is dysfunctional and use that as a guide to treatment; though i think it can be helpful for changing to a new drug based on a reaction to an old one. some people like inositol as an alternative to sris.

#24 Thorsten

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 10:16 AM

I wouldn't try to guess what neurotransmitter is dysfunctional and use that as a guide to treatment; though i think it can be helpful for changing to a new drug based on a reaction to an old one. some people like inositol as an alternative to sris.


Yeah I wasn't being simplistic it's just an observation I have. Things that seem to increase cortisol are not good for me and things that increase serotonin seem to help (although that doesn't include junk like 5htp). For the record I have tried agomelatine, tianeptine, memantine, bupripion, trivastal, SNRI's, citalopram, escitalopram and amisulpride so my experiences with mood altering drugs isn't at beginner level. I've tried quite a broad range really and like you say I am able to gauge what is good for me based on this.
I'm in a period of transition right now just working out which way to go next. I don't believe SJW is strong enough for my problems so for now I'm just plodding along until something catches my eye.
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#25 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:43 AM

Who is using lithium orotate as a regular part of their stack? If you are one, for how long have you been using it, and what positive and negative effects are you noticing? Thanks. :)

#26 FocusPocus

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:41 AM

Who is using lithium orotate as a regular part of their stack? If you are one, for how long have you been using it, and what positive and negative effects are you noticing? Thanks. :)



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Edited by FocusPocus, 13 February 2014 - 05:41 AM.


#27 longschi

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:47 AM

I have used it daily for several months. When I started taking it, I felt better, but now I can't say that there is any noticable effect - positive or negative.
The studies on lithium in tap water and crime, suicide, and mental illness are the reason why I take it.
I had problems with severe depression to the point where I couldn't do pretty much anything (e.g. brushing teeth). Maybe the lithium kept me from doing something irreversible? Who knows. I doubt that it does any harm and am hopeful that I benefit from it in some way, so I'll continue taking it.

#28 FocusPocus

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:34 PM

can i ask you if there were any deficits in cognition or memory you've noticed? (i understand its just 5mg elemental Li compared to the high doses that can cause this, but i thought id ask anyway)

#29 MrKappa

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:47 PM

Be careful not to over do that stuff... there is a long list of side effects with no known incident rate with the corbonate, I can't imagine the orotate is that different.

Ancient springs are renowned for lithium content, however, be aware.

Edited by MrKappa, 14 February 2014 - 04:48 PM.


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#30 jadamgo

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 12:17 AM

You'll know if you're overdoing it. The symptoms -- metallic taste in the mouth, constant thirst, frequent urination even if you don't drink fluids, obvious apathy, small but rapid twitches of the hands, these aren't easy symptoms to miss.

They're also not easy symptoms to GET when you're taking lithium orotate tablets. Maybe if taking 10-20 tablets per day you'll begin to enter the low dosage range used to enhance treatment of depression, or experimentally, to stop cannabis withdrawal symptoms. Then maybe if you take 25-50 tablets per day you'll begin to enter the classic pharmaceutical range for treating BP disorder type I.

That would basically be the range where you have the metallic taste and you pee too much, but you aren't twitching or dysfunctionally apathetic. These symptoms are actually more useful than blood testing for determining dosage because a serum level that would be toxic to one person may be safe effective for another -- in other words, the diagnosis of lithium toxicity is made mostly via the presence of unacceptable symptoms. The lab test just helps confirm the diagnosis that was already made, or perhaps disprove it by establishing that the levels are low and another cause for the symptoms should be diagnosed.

In fact, the lower doses used for depression and cannabis don't require any testing at all. This range, roughly equivalent to 10-20 tablets of Li Orotate per day, simply doesn't have dangerous side effects. Perhaps mildly unpleasant, but not truly dangerous unless you're very old, pregnant, or have a severe pre-existing kidney disease.

In summary: you really don't need to worry about 1-2 tablets of Li Orotate per day. Nothing bad will happen.




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