33 replies to this topic

[orbital]

I'd like some opinions on whether or not current opinion on the board is that NAC should be avoided, taken in moderation, or can be taken regularly.

I had some positive nootropic effects from occaisional 300mg doses a good way back but cut it out of my regimen completely following the discussion here about possible circulatory risks.

[pycnogenol]

I take 600 mg of NAC no more than 8 times per month (i.e., 1 tablet twice weekly) as it tends to raise my blood glucose.

[spacetime]

...

Edited by emitecaps, 29 December 2010 - 09:38 PM.

[pycnogenol]

...

Yes, I concur.

[Dorian Grey]

I take NAC because I do tip a few beers in the evening, and all I can say is, it really does work (against acetaldehyde anyway). The difference in how I feel in the morning is night and day.

You do need to take it on an empty stomach tho... Food (particularly protein) really does kill the effect; and of course vitamin C and B Complex is important to take with it to prevent stone or homocysteine issues.

The one animal study that caused the PAH pulmonary hypertension scare was dosing those critters at the equivalent of about 20 grams per day in a human.

NAC has been on supplement shelves, and been used in various dosages by so many people for so long now and no one has ever noted a problem with PAH, even after the animal study scare. One would think if there had ever been a problem in humans, once the animal study came out people would be putting 2+2 together and law suits would be flying.

Hospitals have been dumping short term mega-doses (up to 20 grams/day) of IV NAC into their Tylenol overdose patients for years (NAC is the antidote for Tylenol poisoning), and still no link with PAH in humans. Body builders have been taking high dose (1800mg) NAC for extended periods, and no problems for them either.

This said, I never take more than 600mg/day. Mega-doses of anything can be dangerous in my book, but this doesn't mean normal doses are bad.

Edited by synesthesia, 01 January 2011 - 06:36 PM.

[orbital]

Thanks for the insightful replies, I very well may include moderate doses again.

[brunotto]

It may be dangerous or at least inflammatory...

DNA-binding activity of NF-kappaB and phosphorylation of p65 are induced by N-acetylcysteine through phosphatidylinositol (PI) 3-kinase.
Liu J, Yoshida Y, Yamashita U.

Department of Immunology, School of Medicine, University of Occupational and Environmental Health, 1-1 Iseigaoka, Yahata-nishi-ku, Kitakyusyu 807-8555, Japan.

Abstract
N-Acetylcysteine (NAC) has been widely used as an antioxidant in research, however, it has also been found to reduce the binding of TNF to its receptor independent of its antioxidative role. In this study, we investigated the effect of NAC on NF-kappaB activation. In HeLa cells, Hep3B cells, and A549 cells, DNA-binding activity of NF-kappaB was induced by NAC without any other stimulation but not by tetramethylthiourea (TMTU) or vitamin C, suggesting that ROS is not involved in the effect of NAC. The degradation of IkappaBalpha and nuclear translocation of NF-kappaB were not induced by NAC. The phosphorylation of p65 at serine 536 was induced by NAC, which is known to contribute to the enhancement of DNA-binding activity of NF-kappaB, however, NAC did not directly phosphorylate p65. The NAC-induced DNA-binding activity of NF-kappaB and phosphorylation of p65 were sensitive to a phosphatidylinositol (PI) 3-kinase inhibitor, partially sensitive to an IkappaB kinase (IKK) inhibitor, but not sensitive to a Bruton's tyrosine kinase (Btk) inhibitor. Moreover, both the DNA-binding activity and phosphorylation induced by NAC were reduced by the overexpression of a dominant negative Akt in HeLa cells. These results suggest that NAC activates mainly PI3K to phosphorylate p65 and subsequently induces DNA-binding activity of NF-kappaB, independent of its antioxidative function.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18657320

[Dorian Grey]

Ouch, now my brain hurts... What does this mean?

[brunotto]

NF-κB plays a key role in regulating the immune response to infection (kappa light chains are critical components of immunoglobulins). On the converse, incorrect regulation of NF-κB has been linked to cancer, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, septic shock, viral infection, and improper immune development.
http://en.wikipedia.....org/wiki/NF-κB

[kilgoretrout]

Ouch, now my brain hurts... What does this mean?

NOTHING. ZERO. ZILCH. Looking at these test-tube studies and thinking you can come to valid conclusions about effects of supplements in live humans is the height of folly. People do it because it gives them an ego boost and makes them feel like they look like geniuses when they post them. In general its BS.

I agree with the above comments about DECADES of safe human use and sale with ZERO evidence of even the slightest actual problem, and yes the PAH study effect resulted from enormous OD levels. 600 - 1200 mg NAC/d is absolutely NOTHING to fret about, and is probably good for your glutathione levels and your liver.

To the person mentioning that food kills the effect and you need to take it on empty stomach, thanks, I've been taking mine with food. Do you have a reference for this remark?

[Dorian Grey]

I had read amino acids are compromised by proteins when taken with food and as NAC has an amino sounding name (is it a true amino acid?) I set out to see if NAC is also compromised by proteins in the gut.

Hard to get a straight answer, but after googling around the label instructions of various different brands of NAC, I found Solgar recommends an "empty stomach or light carbohydrate meal" which seemed to fit the protein damage I had heard about amino acids.

I asked Life Extension (I am member) and they gave a sort of half-hearted "yeh' empty stomach really is better" kind of response.

I take NAC when I'm going to be quaffing a few beers on Saturday nights and after some experimentation, discovered it did indeed work much better (on acetaldehyde/hangover) if I took it empty stomach before dinner.

I'd love to get to the bottom of this once and for all, but the answer to this simple question seems elusive. All I know is, when I take NAC and drink, it's night and day different taking it before dinner, and that's enough evidence for me.

Edited by synesthesia, 09 January 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[Johann]

I have tried NAC a handful of times. Each time, without fail, my heart starts to beat in a heavier way and I am short of breath for 24 hours. To be sure that this is not in my imagination, I tried it for the first time five years ago and got this response. Then a couple of years ago I bought some and tried it again. Same response. I set the bottle off to the side for a few weeks, then tried it again. Then again a few days later. Every time the same thing.




The reason I tried it so many times is because it is supposed to be this wonderful supplement that increases the body's production of glutathione.

[kilgoretrout]

I have tried NAC a handful of times. Each time, without fail, my heart starts to beat in a heavier way and I am short of breath for 24 hours. To be sure that this is not in my imagination, I tried it for the first time five years ago and got this response. Then a couple of years ago I bought some and tried it again. Same response. I set the bottle off to the side for a few weeks, then tried it again. Then again a few days later. Every time the same thing.




The reason I tried it so many times is because it is supposed to be this wonderful supplement that increases the body's production of glutathione.

There is absolutely no known reason or mechanism whereby typical oral doses of NAC could cause that, except for idiosyncratic allergic reaction.


expectation and placebo are VERY VERY good at causing symptoms of anxiety, heart rate increase and shortness of breath, exactly what you had. Have a friend help you by putting NAC and something else innocuous like oh maybe pantothenic acid or TMG in an identical gelcap and putting them in two different bottles labeled 1 and 2 but not tell you which is which. Since the NAC can smell strongly of sulfur, hold your break while opening the bottle 1 or 2, closing it swollowing the pill and moving to a different room so that your mind has NO CLUES which you are taking.

THEN see if the right one consistently gives you those symptoms.

Also, try some other supplements with a high sulfur content... perhaps you have either some physical allergy to it, or some bad childhood experience involving matches or something smelling strongly of sulfur and that buried memory is triggering anxiety symptoms via psychogenic means when you open the NAC bottle and smell the sulfur.

But this PAH effect has NEVER been observed in humans, and no severe side effects close to what you have had have been known in humans that I have heard about.

[anneparker]

Hey, I have read your whole article and it will lead me to the Longecity without any doubt . You have brought many thing which are totally bind to each other. May be this will help you.

Edited by maxwatt, 18 January 2011 - 02:33 AM.
remove spurious hyberlink

[Johann]

It wasn't a placebo effect because when I first tried NAC five years ago, I didn't know of this SIDE EFFECT:

http://www.medicalne...icles/81503.php

[tornpie]

I take 1200 mg twice a day. I've found that all kinds of funny things go away with it particularly with mucous problems during the winter months. It seems to have very subtle mood, OCD, and anti-craving effects as well.

[shp5]

I take 1200 mg twice a day. I've found that all kinds of funny things go away with it particularly with mucous problems during the winter months. It seems to have very subtle mood, OCD, and anti-craving effects as well.

NAC kills (simply spoken) Chlamydiae Pneumonae. maybe you should google cpn and nac.

[tornpie]

I don't think it's chlamydiae pneumonae. I think it's because of this:

http://en.wikipedia....colytic_therapy

NAC has some sort of bond breaking action in mucous. I also have no lip gunk because of it. I've always wondered why I would get lip gunk now and then.

[caruga]

For some reason I've been getting a very blatant boost to mood and confidence after taking 800mg NAC lately even though I didn't get anything from it a few months back and I've seen no such effects advertised. Can't rightly say why that is.

[panhedonic]

I took 1000mg NAC last night AFTER I drunk 3 glasses of red wine and one of scotch, and today my hangover (which would have been almost non-existent for that amount of alcohol) was multiplied x3-5. Had a horrible headache all day, as well as an overall shitty feeling and a very stuffy nose. It's 8pm now and i'm barely starting to recover.

Disclosure: I also took 2g fish oil. I was told today that either one might have been the cause.

Anybody had anything like this before, either with NAC or fish oil?

[Dorian Grey]

Here's why you should take NAC before drinking, but not after...

Cheers!

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16439183

A dual effect of N-acetylcysteine on acute ethanol-induced liver damage in mice.Wang AL, Wang JP, Wang H, Chen YH, Zhao L, Wang LS, Wei W, Xu DX.
Department of Toxicology, Anhui Medical University, Hefei 230032, PR China; Toxicology Laboratory, Center for Disease Control of Anhui Province, Hefei 230032, PR China.

Reactive oxygen species (ROS) have been associated with acute ethanol-induced liver damage. N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is a glutathione (GSH) precursor and direct antioxidant. In this study, we investigated the effects of NAC on acute ethanol-induced liver damage. Female ICR mice were administered by gavage with a single dose of ethanol (6g/kg). NAC was administered in two different modes. In mode A, mice were injected with different doses of NAC at 30min before ethanol. In mode B, mice were injected with different doses of NAC at 4h after ethanol. Acute ethanol-induced liver damage was estimated by measuring serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) activity and histopathological changes. Result showed that a single dose of ethanol (6g/kg) caused a significant increase in serum ALT activity, followed by microvesicular steatosis and necrosis in mouse liver. Pretreatment with NAC significantly protected against acute ethanol-induced liver damage in a dose-independent manner. Correspondingly, pretreatment with NAC significantly attenuated acute ethanol-induced lipid peroxidation and GSH depletion and inhibited hepatic TNF-alpha mRNA expression. By contrast, post-treatment with NAC aggravated ethanol-induced hepatic lipid peroxidation and worsened acute ethanol-induced liver damage in a dose-dependent manner. Taken together, NAC has a dual effect on acute ethanol-induced liver damage. Pretreatment with NAC prevent from acute ethanol-induced liver damage via counteracting ethanol-induced oxidative stress. When administered after ethanol, NAC might behave as a pro-oxidant and aggravate acute ethanol-induced liver damage.

PMID: 16439183 [PubMed - in process]

Edited by synesthesia, 28 February 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Regarding the mixing of fish oil and alcohol...

http://www.longecity...ohol-cirrhosis/

Polyunsaturates (fish oil) and acetaldehyde (alcohol metabolite) = LIPID PEROXIDATION!

This is the recipe researchers use to damage rat livers!

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8184422


High peroxidative susceptibility of fish oil polyunsaturated fatty acid in cultured rat hepatocytes.

"

These results show that peroxidative deterioration in excess of GSH-dependent defense mechanisms may occur in hepatocytes loaded with highly peroxidizable fish oil PUFA."

Edited by synesthesia, 28 February 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[zorba990]

I have tried NAC a handful of times. Each time, without fail, my heart starts to beat in a heavier way and I am short of breath for 24 hours. To be sure that this is not in my imagination, I tried it for the first time five years ago and got this response. Then a couple of years ago I bought some and tried it again. Same response. I set the bottle off to the side for a few weeks, then tried it again. Then again a few days later. Every time the same thing.




The reason I tried it so many times is because it is supposed to be this wonderful supplement that increases the body's production of glutathione.

There is absolutely no known reason or mechanism whereby typical oral doses of NAC could cause that, except for idiosyncratic allergic reaction.


expectation and placebo are VERY VERY good at causing symptoms of anxiety, heart rate increase and shortness of breath, exactly what you had. Have a friend help you by putting NAC and something else innocuous like oh maybe pantothenic acid or TMG in an identical gelcap and putting them in two different bottles labeled 1 and 2 but not tell you which is which. Since the NAC can smell strongly of sulfur, hold your break while opening the bottle 1 or 2, closing it swollowing the pill and moving to a different room so that your mind has NO CLUES which you are taking.

THEN see if the right one consistently gives you those symptoms.

Also, try some other supplements with a high sulfur content... perhaps you have either some physical allergy to it, or some bad childhood experience involving matches or something smelling strongly of sulfur and that buried memory is triggering anxiety symptoms via psychogenic means when you open the NAC bottle and smell the sulfur.

But this PAH effect has NEVER been observed in humans, and no severe side effects close to what you have had have been known in humans that I have heard about.

I concur. Years of heavy use with no side effects for me. Only hair that doesn't fall out anymore (than it should).

[csrpj]

what's the protocol for using it before drinking? how much time exactly before drinking, and in what dosage?

[Dorian Grey]

600mg is the standard capsule of NAC... I would never take more than this as oxidized cysteine can cause problems too.

You're ALWAYS supposed to take twice the dose of vitamin-C with it to prevent too much oxidized cysteine. That would be about a gram. Any more C than that and you'd have the "green apple splatters" from all that C.

They both enter your system rather quickly, so I should think any time before drinking (or perhaps even with your first drink) would be fine.

I've heard NAC is best absorbed on an empty stomach, and since it is unwise to drink on an empty stomach, before dinner would be best (30-60 minutes).

Vitamin-C taken with food also increases IRON absorption, which is a bad thing if you are an X/Y'ly chromosomed (male) type of human. Alcohol increases iron absorption too, and too much iron can cause problems.

Look here: http://www.lewrockwe...ig/sardi10.html

[Dorian Grey]

A great read on "Alcohol Alchemy" here: http://www.ceri.com/alcohol.htm


Living with Alcohol

by Steven Wm. Fowkes

Edited by synesthesia, 28 February 2012 - 02:19 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

I thought the need for C with NAC was removed as a general consensus in one of our other lengthy forum threads on the subject? I will have to do some forum searching later....

[Dorian Grey]

I think taking vitamin-C with the NAC is only required if you will be drinking alcohol...

Metabolizing alcohol will burn through your dose of NAC quite quickly and cause high levels of oxidized cysteine to form. The C recycles this oxidized cysteine back into a usable form again, keeping it on the job at hand (metabolizing alcohol) and keeping too much oxidized cysteine from floating around.

No alcohol, no big requirement for extra C.

[Atropy]

I have tried NAC a handful of times. Each time, without fail, my heart starts to beat in a heavier way and I am short of breath for 24 hours. To be sure that this is not in my imagination, I tried it for the first time five years ago and got this response. Then a couple of years ago I bought some and tried it again. Same response. I set the bottle off to the side for a few weeks, then tried it again. Then again a few days later. Every time the same thing.




The reason I tried it so many times is because it is supposed to be this wonderful supplement that increases the body's production of glutathione.

The same thing happened to me.I tried a Multivitamin containing a little bit of NAC and noticed that I would get out of breath quicker when I would exert myself.I then tried a NAC only product along with the multivitamin,and I got out of breath even faster.It also made my nose feel dry and burn,and made my lungs sound as if I was a smoker.A really annoying side-effect. I'm probably going to have to dump these pills.

[John2009]

I recently read that most NAC is derived from human hair (someone reported on iherb that they contacted LEF and LEF said their NAC is derived from human hair). I read most of the hair comes from China barber shops and salons. If this is true, could there be problems from hair dye and products / chemicals that people put on their hair ? Also, what about what people eat and prescribed drugs ( or illegal one's)  they may be taking, could this effect the hair or NAC product derived from the hair ?

 

Does anyone know how ingesting around 56 grams of Whey protein may compare to say 600 MG of NAC as far as raising Glutathinone levels is concerned ?