148 replies to this topic

[3mp0w3r]

 

 

 

I had higlighted where you said the "optimal" levels for a 25 year old were subjective.  I was agreeing with you that they are subjective.  The objective averages in isolation have little clinical meaning with respect to any given individual.

 

 

So what you are saying is that in order to say an individual's testosterone had dropped significantly, you would need levels from that individual at an earlier point in their life to compare.  

 

Despite the fact that there is huge variability in each individual, it is not possible to compare this in the majority.  This might be a consideration for future male health practices.  (ie. establish what that individual's baseline testosterone is when they are in their 20s)  Unless it can be tied in with a prostate cancer screening program, I doubt that will ever be common practice.  

 

So we have charts with average testosterone levels for age.  I don't see the problem with using them.  This approach is used in many aspects of medicine.  The idea is not to treat absolute numbers but to look at things in combination with the symptoms.  

 

Let's say a guy in his 30s comes in with all of the symptoms of low testosterone but he is still just barely within the reference range.  The lazy approach is to say the person is normal and do nothing.  The next most lazy choice is to give a script for testosterone replacement.  The 3rd approach is to acknowledge that something is going on and try to question further.  (ie. amount of alcohol, marijuana etc, chronic pain and opiate use? etc).  The 3rd approach seems the most intelligent but also requires more time investment.  My guess is that it would be more common to choose the first 2 approaches.  To me that likely means that many people are not getting any treatment for their symptoms and there are likely a few that get treated unnecessarily.  

Edited by 3mp0w3r, 17 January 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[sensei]

 

 

So we have charts with average testosterone levels for age.  I don't see the problem with using them.  This approach is used in many aspects of medicine.  The idea is not to treat absolute numbers but to look at things in combination with the symptoms.  

 

Let's say a guy in his 30s comes in with all of the symptoms of low testosterone but he is still just barely within the reference range.  The lazy approach is to say the person is normal and do nothing.  The next most lazy choice is to give a script for testosterone replacement.  The 3rd approach is to acknowledge that something is going on and try to question further.  (ie. amount of alcohol, marijuana etc, chronic pain and opiate use? etc).  The 3rd approach seems the most intelligent but also requires more time investment.  My guess is that it would be more common to choose the first 2 approaches.  To me that likely means that many people are not getting any treatment for their symptoms and there are likely a few that get treated unnecessarily.  

 

 

Actually, it is now widespread in the US that many Insurance companies will cover TRT even if the male is in the reference range based on age adjustment and symptomology.

 

A friend just told me he started a few weeks ago, when I told him I was waiting on my compounding script.

[nowayout]

 

 

 

 

I had higlighted where you said the "optimal" levels for a 25 year old were subjective.  I was agreeing with you that they are subjective.  The objective averages in isolation have little clinical meaning with respect to any given individual.

 

 

So what you are saying is that in order to say an individual's testosterone had dropped significantly, you would need levels from that individual at an earlier point in their life to compare.  

 

Despite the fact that there is huge variability in each individual, it is not possible to compare this in the majority.  This might be a consideration for future male health practices.  (ie. establish what that individual's baseline testosterone is when they are in their 20s)  Unless it can be tied in with a prostate cancer screening program, I doubt that will ever be common practice.  

 

So we have charts with average testosterone levels for age.  I don't see the problem with using them.  This approach is used in many aspects of medicine.  The idea is not to treat absolute numbers but to look at things in combination with the symptoms.  

 

Let's say a guy in his 30s comes in with all of the symptoms of low testosterone but he is still just barely within the reference range.  The lazy approach is to say the person is normal and do nothing.  The next most lazy choice is to give a script for testosterone replacement.  The 3rd approach is to acknowledge that something is going on and try to question further.  (ie. amount of alcohol, marijuana etc, chronic pain and opiate use? etc).  The 3rd approach seems the most intelligent but also requires more time investment.  My guess is that it would be more common to choose the first 2 approaches.  To me that likely means that many people are not getting any treatment for their symptoms and there are likely a few that get treated unnecessarily.  

 

 

I substantially agree. 

 

But that borderline guy in his 30s is probably overweight and sedentary, perhaps he has prediabetes or a thyroid issue, and subsists on fast food (malnutrition), all conditions that can have the same symptoms as low T, and may cause low T.  However, the treatment for none of these problems is TRT.  However, if he goes to an "anti-aging" doctor in the U.S., TRT is likely what he will get. 
 

[nowayout]

 

 

 

I higlighted where you said the "optimal" levels for a 25 year old were subjective.  I was agreeing with you that they are subjective.  The objective averages in isolation have little clinical meaning with respect to any given individual. 

 

 

 

That are found in almost all males post andropause (~45 and older), and assumed to be 'normal aspects of aging' are the result of low T.

 

This is objective empirical evidence that levels of T lower than the average found in healthy 25-30 year old males - results in low T symptomology -- in almost (95%) all post-andropause males.

 

Let's not talk about "andropause" as if it were like menopause.  It is currently not considered a recognized condition by the medical establishment (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but should give us pause in making such categorical claims about it) - but it is being promoted as a thing by the pharmaceutical industry for obvious reasons.  Large decreases in testosterone levels don't happen to all men around 45 like menopause happens to all women, and when it does occur it is for the most part secondary to weight gain and sedentary lifestyle.  The claim that it happens to 95% of men is greatly exaggerated - even with a generous definition of hypogonadism, only a minority of men in their 50s qualify - for the most part it doesn't happen to active men of normal weight.  

Edited by nowayout, 17 January 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[nowayout]

 

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

 

 

If this is true, your team doctor is not only a quack.  He is a danger to you and the other players. 

 

[cani!]

 

 

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

 

 

If this is true, your team doctor is not only a quack.  He is a danger to you and the other players. 

 

 

 

You have no idea how widespread PED's are in the wolrld of sport! And he is recongnized as a leading expert in sport physiology. You don't have a clue so stfu.

[sensei]

 

 

Let's not talk about "andropause" as if it were like menopause.  It is currently not considered a recognized condition by the medical establishment (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but should give us pause in making such categorical claims about it) - but it is being promoted as a thing by the pharmaceutical industry for obvious reasons.  Large decreases in testosterone levels don't happen to all men around 45 like menopause happens to all women, and when it does occur it is for the most part secondary to weight gain and sedentary lifestyle.  The claim that it happens to 95% of men is greatly exaggerated - even with a generous definition of hypogonadism, only a minority of men in their 50s qualify - for the most part it doesn't happen to active men of normal weight.  

 

 

 

Loss of muscle tone, muscle mass, increase in body fat, lower libido, definitively begin to happen to 95% of men 45+. If you argue that point we can end this discussion because you are not being honest.

 

The reason for those systemic changes in the aging male is less total and free testosterone.  If you argue that point we can end this discussion because you are not being honest.

 

In men 45+ it is harder to gain muscle mass, and to maintain it -- and it gets progressively harder as the years go by. The reason for those systemic changes in the aging male is less total and free testosterone.  If you argue that point we can end this discussion because you are not being honest.

 

And you are incorrect, the loss of muscle mass, muscle tone, and weight (fat) gain is secondary to lower free and total testosterone. The incontrovertible fact that TRT increases muscle mass, muscle tone, and decreases body fat in the aging male is objective empirical evidence of such causal link.

[3mp0w3r]

I think nowayout was trying to say that lifestyle factors are the reason why many men have low testosterone.  There is likely a subset where the low testosterone preceded the increased body fat and another subset where the obesity came first.  

 

There are other environmental / dietary factors as well.  (ie. phytoestrogens from soy,  phthalates from plastics etc.)

 

A US study looked at overall population based averages for testosterone and found a decline in the younger generations.

A 2013 Finnish study found a similar result.   http://www.eje-onlin.../2/227.full.pdf

 

[platypus]

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while. 

 

If you're healthy and athletic, why would you need TRT at 35? At 45 or 50 I would undertand it depending on what the lab-tests show but if you're 35 and have low bodyfat your numbers are likely to still be very good. 

[Area-1255]

 

We all know anabolic steroids are bad but are they bad in small doses?

Why do you want to take them? Again, I'm left wondering why you call yourself 'The Immortalist', but you keep wanting to do things that might harm your health.

 

The problem(s) with "steroids"..

 

1.) They cost a shit ton of money, depending on how many cycles you are running, could be up to 1 K; and that's not even including the ancillaries, PCT regimen/s and other stuff you would need.

 

2.) They can cause testicular pain and atrophy if not used with a proper dose of an aromatase inhibitor and hCG, preferably. They have the ability to produce high blood pressure in many people, depending on which compounds and how much, and you have to really study to know which are right for you.

 

3.) They are illegal, and shipping them is risky, unless you have a drop.

 

4.) Why shut down your own production and have to go through post-cycle-therapy (PCT) for temporary gains.

 

5.) If you don't understand diet and exercise, they are useless, and you still have to push yourself!

Edited by Area-1255, 18 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[cani!]

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while. 

 

If you're healthy and athletic, why would you need TRT at 35? At 45 or 50 I would undertand it depending on what the lab-tests show but if you're 35 and have low bodyfat your numbers are likely to still be very good. 

 

 

Training hard depletes your testosterone levels, that is why you get tired the more you are in season. We are closely monitored by our team doctor and when we get near the end of pre-season training, our levels are really really low (except for guys that are on Testosterone).

 

I'm beyond athletic. You just have no idea...

 

 

Edited by cani!, 18 January 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[cani!]

 

 

We all know anabolic steroids are bad but are they bad in small doses?

Why do you want to take them? Again, I'm left wondering why you call yourself 'The Immortalist', but you keep wanting to do things that might harm your health.

 

The problem(s) with "steroids"..

 

1.) They cost a shit ton of money, depending on how many cycles you are running, could be up to 1 K; and that's not even including the ancillaries, PCT regimen/s and other stuff you would need.

 

2.) They can cause testicular pain and atrophy if not used with a proper dose of an aromatase inhibitor and hCG, preferably. They have the ability to produce high blood pressure in many people, depending on which compounds and how much, and you have to really study to know which are right for you.

 

3.) They are illegal, and shipping them is risky, unless you have a drop.

 

4.) Why shut down your own production and have to go through post-cycle-therapy (PCT) for temporary gains.

 

5.) If you don't understand diet and exercise, they are useless, and you still have to push yourself!

 

 

 

Dude, that is just a bunch of misconceived notion.

 

1) A good Sustanon cycle will cost you about 80$. That is at 250mgs a week for ten weeks. If you use TRT doses (100mg a week), even longer. That is by just shopping around on the internet and those are not good prices for pharma grade Sustanon. When prescribed, it costs about 1$ a day. You don't need "anxilliaries" if you do TRT doses..

 

2) Ball shrinkage is overrated, not painfull and reversible plus it WON'T happen on TRT doses. It has nothing to do with aromatization. Yes, HCG will reverse the process on cycle if you use very heavily and have concern about your ball size. High blood pressure only happens at heavy dosage.

 

3) Domestic shipping has less risk and if you're not an ass, very secure, especially if you ask around and have a source for good pharma grade. Asking your doc for a prescription is even safer.  

 

4) They shut you down again when you use a lot. If you stick at TRT levels, you won't notice much. Most gains in muscles will not be lost. That is crap. What you will lose is the added fluid water retention caused. Again, you are speaking of what happen at huge dosage.

 

5) Bullshit, there was a study done and the group doing only Steroids while not training still gained 6 pounds over 12 weeks... Can't link it through my Iphone but will try later tonight. There was a review on studies done on anabolic steroids that showed all kinds of results, with training or without. 

 

I think you are confusing using TRT level of testosterone and the massive amounts most gearhead are using. If you stick to 100 mg of testosterone a week, the benefits far outweigh the costs for most ageing males. If you do it right and get it prescribed by a doctor, you alleviate all legal risk, monitoring your health with your doctor make it easy to avoid problems before they appear etc...

 

In any case, each can make their own decision but please, stop spewing bullshit risks that came from guys doing 1g of testosterone a week plus many other compounds. On TRT of even moderate supraphysiological dosages, testosterone has a better safety profile then Tylenol!

Edited by cani!, 18 January 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[nowayout]

 

 

 

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

 

 

If this is true, your team doctor is not only a quack.  He is a danger to you and the other players. 

 

 

 

You have no idea how widespread PED's are in the wolrld of sport! And he is recongnized as a leading expert in sport physiology. You don't have a clue so stfu.

 

 

I know how widespread it is.  How does that change the rather indisputable fact that if he is administering testosterone injections to young athletes he is a quack and a danger to the health of the athletes under his care?  Not to mention the professional and legal risk he is exposing them to. 
 

Edited by nowayout, 18 January 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[nowayout]

 

 

 

Let's not talk about "andropause" as if it were like menopause.  It is currently not considered a recognized condition by the medical establishment (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but should give us pause in making such categorical claims about it) - but it is being promoted as a thing by the pharmaceutical industry for obvious reasons.  Large decreases in testosterone levels don't happen to all men around 45 like menopause happens to all women, and when it does occur it is for the most part secondary to weight gain and sedentary lifestyle.  The claim that it happens to 95% of men is greatly exaggerated - even with a generous definition of hypogonadism, only a minority of men in their 50s qualify - for the most part it doesn't happen to active men of normal weight.  

 

 

 

Loss of muscle tone, muscle mass, increase in body fat, lower libido, definitively begin to happen to 95% of men 45+. If you argue that point we can end this discussion because you are not being honest.

 

The reason for those systemic changes in the aging male is less total and free testosterone.

 

 

I disagree.  First, the symptoms you mention are multifactorial (and quite often not fixed by TRT).  Andropause is not a fact of life like menopause.  Low testosterone, when it occurs in men in their 40s and 50s, is for the most part a symptom of bad lifestyle choices over the preceding decades.  Low testosterone is in particular often a consequence of fat gain (for well-understood physiological reasons to do with estrogens produced by fat tissue dysregulating the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis) not "the reason" for the fat gain. 

 

I am actually in favor of men improving their quality of life with TRT provided they are well-informed of the risks and consequences.  But I think we should all be honest about the fact that for most of these men it is an attempt to find an easy fix for lifestyle-related problems, in a similar vein to taking cholesterol medication because you don't want to change your diet.  That's fine.  But calling a largely avoidable condition by the inevitable-sounding word "andropause" (to market drugs) is what I find dishonest. 

[cani!]

 

 

 

 

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

 

 

If this is true, your team doctor is not only a quack.  He is a danger to you and the other players. 

 

 

 

You have no idea how widespread PED's are in the wolrld of sport! And he is recongnized as a leading expert in sport physiology. You don't have a clue so stfu.

 

 

I know how widespread it is.  How does that change the rather indisputable fact that if he is administering testosterone injections to young athletes he is a quack and a danger to the health of the athletes under his care?  Not to mention the professional and legal risk he is exposing them to. 
 

 

 

 

Clearly you are speaking out of your ass... A few years ago, some guys were doing experiments with low dosage of Testosterone and or EPO. That was just after the Balco scandal so they became aware that Testosterone could help them even as endurance players. As you probably know, since you are an infinite well of knowledge, most athletes would be using anything under the sun if it gave them their chance at a gold medal. Well, that mentality caused a few guys to go overboard: some had bad infection and others were using too much and it hindered their performances.

 

In any case, our team's doc started to look at out T levels and was very concerned for the health of the players. He decided instead to educate the players and provided a prescription for those willing to go further to be tested at an endocrinologist. Since we train very hard (8 to 12 times a week), our T levels are very low and our cortisol is high. When the results came back, those having low levels of T were prescribes TRT by the endocrinologist and our doc now monitors them and does the shot to alleviate dangers.

 

So, yeah, he is not a quack and a very good guy, very generous to our community. He just has his head out of his ass and decided to face the issues we had as a team head on, by having players independantly tested by an endo. Those who have high levels of T without a presciption by the endo are kicked out of the team... So call him a quack one more time and you will have my spike so far up your ass your children's children's are gonna taste rubber!

Edited by cani!, 18 January 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[sensei]

 

 

I disagree.  First, the symptoms you mention are multifactorial (and quite often not fixed by TRT).  Andropause is not a fact of life like menopause.  Low testosterone, when it occurs in men in their 40s and 50s, is for the most part a symptom of bad lifestyle choices over the preceding decades.  Low testosterone is in particular often a consequence of fat gain (for well-understood physiological reasons to do with estrogens produced by fat tissue dysregulating the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis) not "the reason" for the fat gain. 

 

I am actually in favor of men improving their quality of life with TRT provided they are well-informed of the risks and consequences.  But I think we should all be honest about the fact that for most of these men it is an attempt to find an easy fix for lifestyle-related problems, in a similar vein to taking cholesterol medication because you don't want to change your diet.  That's fine.  But calling a largely avoidable condition by the inevitable-sounding word "andropause" (to market drugs) is what I find dishonest. 

 

 

Put a man in his 50's on TRT and bring his free testosterone to the median level of a healthy 25 year old and he will without a doubt

 

Gain muscle mass

Gain muscle tone

Have increased libido

Lose body fat

 

Even with only mild exercise like walking -- because T is an anabolic steroid

 

And yes, andropause is a fact of life -- for 95% of men  total and free T drop regardless of where in the "range" they started.

 

Andropause is not a drop below the "normal range" -- that is hypogonadism

 

Andropause is the drop in Free and total T found in men starting about age 45. 

 

Remember -- menopause is not the absence of estrogen -- it is an age associated decline -- some women start perimenopause in their 30's, some in their 50's

 

My T dropped in half from age 40 to 43, yet my total is still above 400, and my free is at 6.8 -- within the range of "normal" -- yet those are median numbers for a 70 year old, and my muscle mass, muscle tone, exercise recovery, etc have suffered accordingly.  I'm 5'10" and weigh 175 lbs.

 

 

Andropause is the reason why even among elite and professional athletes in sports that require explosive strength and speed, you will very rarely find any performing at a competitive level past the age of 45 -- unless they are taking steroids.

Edited by sensei, 18 January 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[platypus]

 

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while. 

 

If you're healthy and athletic, why would you need TRT at 35? At 45 or 50 I would undertand it depending on what the lab-tests show but if you're 35 and have low bodyfat your numbers are likely to still be very good. 

 

 

Training hard depletes your testosterone levels, that is why you get tired the more you are in season. We are closely monitored by our team doctor and when we get near the end of pre-season training, our levels are really really low (except for guys that are on Testosterone).

 

I'm beyond athletic. You just have no idea...

 

Ok understood, but why would you want to go on TRT after you retire? To be able to maintain a certain level of athleticism with less work? 

[cani!]

What i mean by beyond athletic is that since I started soccer so late, I had to train twice as hard as other guys and my body is beat up. My joints hurt, my knees are killing me but with many techniques from our pt, I'm still able to hang on.

When it all stops, there is no way I will train as hard and mentally I won't be able to cope with getting weaker and detrained... Guys that had a good post career transition found ways to cope, part of it being dealing with catabolism with lower training volume and other chemical crutches.

I'm scared out of my pants of getting weaker and as a very coward man, I will deal with it by cheating nature fir a while.

I may sound like an arrogant douche and i may be, but shrinking from 200 pounds, sub 13s 5k to I don't know what is a scary prospect. It is shallow but for now, my identity is closely linked to what my mind and bodu can do on a field...
 

Edited by cani!, 19 January 2015 - 12:25 AM.

[3mp0w3r]

I think that nowayout has a few valid points despite maybe not being well received.  He is correct when he says andropause is not an accepted term within the medical community.  While it is common in North America, it is not in other countries.  If you ask most docs here about andropause and testosterone replacement they will scoff at it or simply have no comment.  

 

That isn't to say that the concept of andropause is invalid.  It might just take a while to become accepted.  From what I understand the term isn't just used for the gradual age related decline of testosterone.  It is reserved for a subset of men who have a sudden more rapid decline with an associated onset of symptoms.  This subset of men would be much smaller than the total of course.  I can see how defining it as age related decline would be better for pharmaceutical companies because it would mean bigger profits.  You have to understand that the US has a different health care model then the rest of the world and patients drive trends more than other places.

 

What I am not sure I agree with is saying that declining testosterone levels are due to lifestyle choices.  Like I said previously, there are a few chemicals and other environmental factors that are suspected.  One way to compare this would be to do a literature search for population based testosterone studies and compare with asian countries where obesity and sedentary lifestyle would have less impact.  

[3mp0w3r]

What i mean by beyond athletic is that since I started soccer so late, I had to train twice as hard as other guys and my body is beat up. My joints hurt, my knees are killing me but with many techniques from our pt, I'm still able to hang on.

When it all stops, there is no way I will train as hard and mentally I won't be able to cope with getting weaker and detrained... Guys that had a good post career transition found ways to cope, part of it being dealing with catabolism with lower training volume and other chemical crutches.

I'm scared out of my pants of getting weaker and as a very coward man, I will deal with it by cheating nature fir a while.

I may sound like an arrogant douche and i may be, but shrinking from 200 pounds, sub 13s 5k to I don't know what is a scary prospect. It is shallow but for now, my identity is closely linked to what my mind and bodu can do on a field...
 

 

No matter what you do, age catches up eventually.  You can maintain your muscle and body fat percentage for a while but that will not bring back the articular cartilage you have lost in your knees.  You will have to change the way that you train as you get older.  

 

Outside testosterone replacement, you might want to keep an eye on stem cell research.  I understand a few clinics now inject stem cells into joints with claims of decreased pain scores.  I am not sure if the research supports this yet but it might in the future. 

[nowayout]

 

 

 

I disagree.  First, the symptoms you mention are multifactorial (and quite often not fixed by TRT).  Andropause is not a fact of life like menopause.  Low testosterone, when it occurs in men in their 40s and 50s, is for the most part a symptom of bad lifestyle choices over the preceding decades.  Low testosterone is in particular often a consequence of fat gain (for well-understood physiological reasons to do with estrogens produced by fat tissue dysregulating the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis) not "the reason" for the fat gain. 

 

I am actually in favor of men improving their quality of life with TRT provided they are well-informed of the risks and consequences.  But I think we should all be honest about the fact that for most of these men it is an attempt to find an easy fix for lifestyle-related problems, in a similar vein to taking cholesterol medication because you don't want to change your diet.  That's fine.  But calling a largely avoidable condition by the inevitable-sounding word "andropause" (to market drugs) is what I find dishonest. 

 

 

 

My T dropped in half from age 40 to 43, ...

 

 

A 50% drop in testosterone in 3 years does sound analogous to menopause but it is simply not normal.  It is much more likely that something else (illness or environmental) must have happened to you you to cause that.  I would be very wary of a doctor sweeping it under the rug by calling it andropause without very careful further investigation. 

 

Males in their 40s just don't suddenly lose half their testosterone in 3 years unless there is some illness going on.  That is not normal aging.  I  can understand why you want to think it is normal, but if I were you I really would want to get to the bottom of what is really going on. 

Edited by nowayout, 19 January 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[nowayout]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

 

 

If this is true, your team doctor is not only a quack.  He is a danger to you and the other players. 

 

 

 

You have no idea how widespread PED's are in the wolrld of sport! And he is recongnized as a leading expert in sport physiology. You don't have a clue so stfu.

 

 

I know how widespread it is.  How does that change the rather indisputable fact that if he is administering testosterone injections to young athletes he is a quack and a danger to the health of the athletes under his care?  Not to mention the professional and legal risk he is exposing them to. 
 

 

 

 

Clearly you are speaking out of your ass... A few years ago, some guys were doing experiments with low dosage of Testosterone and or EPO. That was just after the Balco scandal so they became aware that Testosterone could help them even as endurance players. As you probably know, since you are an infinite well of knowledge, most athletes would be using anything under the sun if it gave them their chance at a gold medal. Well, that mentality caused a few guys to go overboard: some had bad infection and others were using too much and it hindered their performances.

 

In any case, our team's doc started to look at out T levels and was very concerned for the health of the players. He decided instead to educate the players and provided a prescription for those willing to go further to be tested at an endocrinologist. Since we train very hard (8 to 12 times a week), our T levels are very low and our cortisol is high. When the results came back, those having low levels of T were prescribes TRT by the endocrinologist and our doc now monitors them and does the shot to alleviate dangers.

 

So, yeah, he is not a quack and a very good guy, very generous to our community. He just has his head out of his ass and decided to face the issues we had as a team head on, by having players independantly tested by an endo. Those who have high levels of T without a presciption by the endo are kicked out of the team... So call him a quack one more time and you will have my spike so far up your ass your children's children's are gonna taste rubber!

 

 

Putting young guys on TRT is simply not the correct approach to temporary overtraining - your trainer, dietician, and doctors are all idiots apparently.  (By the way, an endo is the last person you should go to for low testosterone issues - they just don't know crap about it.)  It puts them at risk of permanent HPTA damage leading to permanent hypogonadism, as well as infertility, to name just two consequences.  I would encourage you to educate yourself about this before putting your foot in your mouth again (not to mention in my ass, though I appreciate the thought). 

Edited by nowayout, 19 January 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[nowayout]

Put a man in his 50's on TRT and bring his free testosterone to the median level of a healthy 25 year old and he will without a doubt

 

Gain muscle mass

Gain muscle tone

Have increased libido

Lose body fat

 

 

Put any man of any age on the usual TRT doses and they will gain muscle and possibly lose fat, given that most TRT doctors shoot for T levels at the upper limit of the youthful range, not the median. The usual 100 mg/week dose is more than what most 25-year olds would produce naturally, not to mention that many "anti-aging" clinics prescribe 200 mg/week, which is really more of a light steroid cycle, except permanent. 

 

Even if the doctor just get you to median 25-year old levels (on injections) you are at those levels all day, which is for much longer than the 25 year old, since his T will drop about 40% below that level by late afternoon, so your AUC is much larger than for the 25 year old.  If the test is done at the end of the week after injection (as is often done, and assuming weekly injections), you have been at much higher levels during the week (typically peaking at double what the test shows).

 

Having a pleasant reaction to a medication doesn't mean that someone has some corresponding medical condition.  I react very pleasantly to opioids, for example.

Edited by nowayout, 19 January 2015 - 05:38 PM.

[cani!]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've seen and we can all agree on that age related depression can be lessen to a great degree by using small amounts of Testosterone, even in healthy men (100 mg a week at most). Side effects are negligeable at that level but it makes you feel like a man again, a little bit of aggression, passion for life, wanting to bang your wife etc...

 

I've seen countless friends or relative get into a terrible state of mind as they got older and I believe unhappiness is the number one killer. One of my closest friend smokes, drinks, stay up light and still has wild nights pushing 80 years old while some of my family members are 55 and already hanging by a thread, gray and almost dead inside. Now, if both have an heart attack, I'm willing to bet the guy that has reasons to live will stay here much longer... Outliers of longevity seem to be happy and somes studies point it as a factor.

 

http://link.springer...8-9127-0#page-1

 

I'm not using anything at the moment because I still play semi-pro soccer and think it would be cheating (most of my teammates don't have that mentality... you would be surprised how widespread Testosterone use is) but as soon as I "retire" at 35 (if I'm lucky), I go on TRT for a good while.  

 

I agree with you on the depression aspect.  That connection seems fairly accepted now.  I just watched the movie "The Imitation Game".  (Don't read further if you plan to watch and don't know the story)  It is based on Alan Turing's life.  Despite coming up with a machine that helped win the war he was given a choice of jail or "chemical castration" because it became known he was gay.  The interesting thing is that after a year or 2 of this he committed suicide.  

 

What I am not sure about is 100mg/week.  When you start taking exogenous testosterone you shut off your own production.  It wouldn't be ideal to give yourself a really low dose but still end up with lower production and the same level or less at the end of it!  

 

What would give me hesitancy starting at 35 is that you have potentially 50 years of it.  Many things can change in that time.  

 

A few years ago there was a paper published about hormone replacement for menopausal women.  The study found a link with breast cancer.  It caused a bit of a stir.  It took a few years to discover that they had used a non representative population (ie. many of the women were much older than menopause years) and there was selection bias.  That was a multicenter study published in a respected journal and it was proven inaccurate eventually.  However, during that first year or so many docs advocated ceasing that therapy.   It might be unlikely that the same thing will happen with testosterone but we have seen some pretty wild changes in public/medical opinion in the past already.  Perhaps I am being paranoid.  It probably reflects the concept of not wanting to be dependant on docs for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would be the same thing if I was an insulin dependant diabetic.  But right now, I have no regular prescriptions and would like to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

I won't have to go look for to have a script for TRT: our team's doctor give Testosterone shot to most players all year round...

 

 

If this is true, your team doctor is not only a quack.  He is a danger to you and the other players. 

 

 

 

You have no idea how widespread PED's are in the wolrld of sport! And he is recongnized as a leading expert in sport physiology. You don't have a clue so stfu.

 

 

I know how widespread it is.  How does that change the rather indisputable fact that if he is administering testosterone injections to young athletes he is a quack and a danger to the health of the athletes under his care?  Not to mention the professional and legal risk he is exposing them to. 
 

 

 

 

Clearly you are speaking out of your ass... A few years ago, some guys were doing experiments with low dosage of Testosterone and or EPO. That was just after the Balco scandal so they became aware that Testosterone could help them even as endurance players. As you probably know, since you are an infinite well of knowledge, most athletes would be using anything under the sun if it gave them their chance at a gold medal. Well, that mentality caused a few guys to go overboard: some had bad infection and others were using too much and it hindered their performances.

 

In any case, our team's doc started to look at out T levels and was very concerned for the health of the players. He decided instead to educate the players and provided a prescription for those willing to go further to be tested at an endocrinologist. Since we train very hard (8 to 12 times a week), our T levels are very low and our cortisol is high. When the results came back, those having low levels of T were prescribes TRT by the endocrinologist and our doc now monitors them and does the shot to alleviate dangers.

 

So, yeah, he is not a quack and a very good guy, very generous to our community. He just has his head out of his ass and decided to face the issues we had as a team head on, by having players independantly tested by an endo. Those who have high levels of T without a presciption by the endo are kicked out of the team... So call him a quack one more time and you will have my spike so far up your ass your children's children's are gonna taste rubber!

 

 

Putting young guys on TRT is simply not the correct approach to temporary overtraining - your trainer, dietician, and doctor are all idiots apparently.  It puts them at risk of permanent HPTA damage leading to permanent hypogonadism, as well as infertility, to name just two consequences.  I would encourage you to educate yourself about this before putting your foot in your mouth again (not to mention in my ass, though I appreciate the thought). 

 

 

 

Show me just one study, or even case study showing permanent damage to HPTA when using low level of anabolic steroids (not abuse)...

 

In this review of the litterature, they mentionned HPTA shut down being reversible in most, if not all cases, even when using absurd amounts and without clomiphen to restart your own production....

 

http://link.springer...80-00003#page-1

 

It is by far the most cited article on anabolic steroids but since research on that subject is unethical, mainly because of asshats that wanted to have political sympathy by banning them in the 1990's (Reagan), probably following the Ben Johnson "scandal" we don't have much info available. 

 

 I have spent countless hours reading the small scientific litterature on the subject before doing anything stupid, yet I don't use them yet but not because of inherent dangers to my health. Besides, I'm 33 and already have a family, like most of my teammates who are using. 

 

. I kinda of get your point saying TRT and andropause might be overrated or misunderstood and there are probably many factors but, no one is putting a gun to any players's head... They are well aware of the consequences of what they do BUT THEY WOULD USE PEDS anyways so providing them with safer alternatives just makes sense.

 

Besides, you are at most an internet warrior hidding behind your keyboard. In real life, you wouldn't call anyone a quack in front of me I can garantee you that.... I can agree having an healthy debate especially on a controversial subject but calling out someone like that is just immature, probably stemming from your insecurities as a small girly man.

Edited by cani!, 19 January 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[nowayout]

In this review of the litterature, they mentionned HPTA shut down being reversible in most, if not all cases, even when using absurd amounts and without clomiphen to restart your own production....

 

http://link.springer...80-00003#page-1

 

Besides, you are at most an internet warrior hidding behind your keyboard. In real life, you wouldn't call anyone a quack in front of me I can garantee you that.... I can agree having an healthy debate especially on a controversial subject but calling out someone like that is just immature, probably stemming from your insecurities as a small girly man.

 

 

Can you please quote where they say that HPTA shutdown is reversible? 

 

And crucially, you say "in most."  What percentage is "most"?

 

Also, "reversible" (in cases I have seen in the literature) usually means that the person resumed production in the "normal" range (whose lower limit is quite low).  However, their testosterone may be much lower than it was before.  For example, if the guy had T = 700 ng/dl before and now has T = 400 ng/dl, they consider that his HPTA shutdown was reversed.  But that is really not good enough. 

 

Anecdotally, many people who do short steroid cycles and recover in between with PCT still have progressively lower and lower natural T levels each time, and many need to go on TRT much sooner than the general population.

 

Unless that recovery percentage is close to 100%, and unless you can show me literature that recovery was to close to 100% of previous T levels, I stand by my characterization of your doctors.  They should "first, do no harm."  It's the first sentence of their oath!  They cannot take absence of evidence as evidence of absence - it is completely unethical of them to do that. 

Edited by nowayout, 19 January 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[cani!]

 

In this review of the litterature, they mentionned HPTA shut down being reversible in most, if not all cases, even when using absurd amounts and without clomiphen to restart your own production....

 

http://link.springer...80-00003#page-1

 

Besides, you are at most an internet warrior hidding behind your keyboard. In real life, you wouldn't call anyone a quack in front of me I can garantee you that.... I can agree having an healthy debate especially on a controversial subject but calling out someone like that is just immature, probably stemming from your insecurities as a small girly man.

 

 

Can you please quote where they say that HPTA shutdown is reversible? 

 

And crucially, you say "in most."  What percentage is "most"?

 

Also, "reversible" (in cases I have seen in the literature) usually means that the person resumed production in the "normal" range (whose lower limit is quite low).  However, their testosterone may be much lower than it was before.  For example, if the guy had T = 700 ng/dl before and now has T = 400 ng/dl, they consider that his HPTA shutdown was reversed.  But that is really not good enough. 

 

Anecdotally, many people who do short steroid cycles and recover in between with PCT still have progressively lower and lower natural T levels each time, and many need to go on TRT much sooner than the general population.

 

Unless that recovery percentage is close to 100%, and unless you can show me literature that recovery was to close to 100% of previous T levels, I stand by my characterization of your doctors.  They should "first, do no harm."  It's the first sentence of their oath!  They cannot take absence of evidence as evidence of absence - it is completely unethical of them to do that. 

 

 

 

Page 536 from mentionned study:

 

 Once the steroid intake is stopped, 

the exact time needed for full recovery of reproduc- 

tive function is not known and may vary depending on the doses taken and duration of AAS abuse. After

long-term (6 months) polydrug administration, recovery may take at least 4–5 months.[36,109,120]

However, in some individuals complete restoration of

normal reproductive function may take more than a year.[118] Long-term administration of high doses

AAS may provoke hypogonadotrophic characterised by testicular atrophy,.  A number of athletes try to prevent 

or reverse this disturbance of the reproductive sys-

tem by using human chorionic gonadotrophin or n

clomifene together with the AAS or immediately 

after the end of the AAS course, although scientific

rationale for such regimens is not available.

 

It has been reported that clomifene may successfully restore AAS-induced pituitary-

dysfunction[121] and treatment with both human

gonadotrophin (hCG) and human

gonadotrophins (hMG) reversed persistent due to the misuse of AAS.[122]

 

 

If you can get your two working brain cells to fire up at the same time and follow the reference, you will see the the amount of testesterone was back at the exact same spot as it was before starting the long, polydrug AAS cycle (way beyond TRT levels). They do mention "full" in the article and if you had actually taken time to read instead of producing slobber, you would've seen that, unlike you, I never say anything I can't back up, including insulting someone like you did... 

 

 

Again, in you bad example, you talk about guys that go way above what is needed for TRT. 

 

Anyways, arguing over an internet warrior like you is like winning the special olympics: wether you win or lose you are still a retard. 

 

I provided what is probably the best review of litterature on anabolic steroids, it is a recent article written by respected scholar whereas you just insulted what is by far the most generous men I've ever known. We all know cortico steroids, opiates, anti-depressant and even pain medication can cause harm to the human body. In the long run, they probably do more harm then good. So by your "logic", any doctors prescribing any of those acts unethically? Besides, the endo isn't writting scripts to guys that are in the normal range. You are a loser, period!

 

Low dose AS, although not harmless, has a VERY good safety profile. I'm out. 

Edited by cani!, 19 January 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[APBT]

http://www.scienceda...50707092422.htm

 

 

Gym steroid use has impact on memory

 

Date: July 7, 2015     Source: Northumbria University     Summary: People using anabolic steroids to improve muscle growth and sporting performance are far more likely to experience issues with their memory, according to new research.

 

 

People using anabolic steroids to improve muscle growth and sporting performance are far more likely to experience issues with their memory, according to new research from Northumbria University.

In some specialist gym user groups -- such as bodybuilders and weightlifters -- it is estimated that as many as 38% take steroids. Dr Tom Heffernan from the University's Department of Psychology therefore aimed to examine whether the long-term use of high doses of anabolic-androgenic steroids within a sporting context might affect everyday memory.

He assessed almost 100 males aged 18-30 who were regular gym users. Half of the group used steroids and half did not.

The results, which are published in The Open Psychiatry Journal, revealed that those using steroids had significantly more deficits in their prospective and retrospective memory functioning, as well as their mental executive function, compared to non-users.

Steroid users were 39% more forgetting in terms of prospective memory -- the process of remembering to do something you had planned to do in the future, such as remembering to pay a bill before it is due or to take medication at a certain time.

They were also 28% more forgetting when recalling past memories or previous facts, known as retrospective memory, and demonstrated a 32% difference in their mental executive function compared to non-users. Executive functioning is a term used to describe a number of cognitive processes that help an individual to pay attention, coordinate information and plan and execute tasks. A compromised executive function is likely to lead to confusion and poor planning, while reduced prospective memory ability leads to forgetfulness.

While a previous study from Harvard University found deficits in visuo-spatial memory in long-term steroid users, this is the first study to explore the impact that steroid use in a sporting context has on memory for everyday activities.

Dr Heffernan explained: "The non-medical use of anabolic-androgenic steroid use came to the forefront in the 1960s when elite athletes and bodybuilders used the drugs to promote muscle growth and improve performance levels. Since the 1980s many millions of individuals worldwide have used such steroids in a sporting context, which has now become much more widespread within non-competitive recreational sports circles.

"Overall the health-related risks of long-term steroid use are fairly well documented but we know much less about what the everyday consequences of their use may be.

"Our findings suggest that long-term use of anabolic-androgenic steroids has a significant impact on an individual's everyday memory and ability to remember. This could affect many spheres of life, including interpersonal, occupational, educational and health-related aspects, given the ubiquitous nature of everyday remembering.

"This, combined with the work of Professor Pope at Harvard, should provide the impetus for much needed future work in this area."

The paper, titled "Everyday memory deficits associated with anabolic-androgenic steroid use in regular gymnasium users" is published in the latest edition of The Open Psychiatry Journal and can be found online at:http://benthamopen.c...PJ/TOPJ-9-1.pdf

 

Story Source:

The above post is reprinted from materials provided byNorthumbria University. Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.

 

 

[proileri]

There's a great 2003 article by Stuart Stevens, a cycling-enthusiast journalist, who goes to an anti-aging doctor and spends six months trying out what various PEDs could do for him and his cycling performance. He was about 50 at the time.  

 

http://www.outsideon...24306/drug-test

 

[Ames]

Negative effects depend on type and dosage. You can overdo it on veterinary steroids, look like a freak for a few years, and perhaps wind up on dialysis later in life. That being said, aside from the possibility of organ damage given the wrong dose and type of drug, low to moderate dose steroid users are almost always more physically vibrant than the average person. Would it be worth it to have a vibrant level of testosterone in your thirties and forties over looking like an unhealthy and depleted male, at the cost of needing to maintain testosterone therapy or to have lower T in old age? Your T is going to be on the floor regardless. What would the difference to your life be in terms of what you can do and how you are treated by others In everyday life?

 

I don't advocate steroids, but I also can't resolve the contradiction of a hormonally dysfunctional skinny-fat (or fat) male (perhaps 50% + of vegetarians) with low testosterone lecturing a low dose steroid user on health dangers. It is difficult to maintain a steroid free healthy body after the period of time wherein our natural steroids are high. Aging and physical dysfunction might be 'natural' given our removal from the type of brutal environment that might have fostered lifelong (30+ years) hormonal health, but that doesn't mean that its healthy. There is no perfect solution, in terms of use or abstinence. There are only tradeoffs. The single largest key to steroid free healthy hormonal patterns is likely a regular insulin resensitizing and stimulation cycle. If you can't accomplish that, then pathological processes are likely to follow with age.

Edited by golgi1, 08 October 2015 - 11:04 AM.