48 replies to this topic

[Sillewater]

Am J Respir Crit Care Med. 2008 Sep 15;178(6):592-604. Epub 2008 Jun 12.
Decline in NRF2-regulated antioxidants in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease lungs due to loss of its positive regulator, DJ-1.
Malhotra D, Thimmulappa R, Navas-Acien A, Sandford A, Elliott M, Singh A, Chen L, Zhuang X, Hogg J, Pare P, Tuder RM, Biswal S.
Source
Department of Environmental Health Sciences, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Room E7624, 615 North Wolfe St., Baltimore, MD 21205, USA.

Maybe some lipoic acid and isothionycate will help. Activate that nrf2 pathway.

[JLL]

What would be some negative consequences of consuming 9 gr fish oil every day ? Ideally, maybe it would be best to do a loading phase of say, 1 week at 9 gr fish oil. Then reduce this amount to 9 gr once per week and the other 6 days, consume something like flax oil, which also reduces TNF-a to a lesser extent. I suppose this would avoid some negative side effects/oxidation potential from using too much fish oil. Bleh.

I know some people think in vivo lipid peroxidation from excess EPA/DHA consumption is only a theoretical concern, but I definitely wouldn't take 9g myself.

Fats and AGEs: PUFAs Are Even Worse than Fructose

As for TNF-a, I wrote about some things that reduce TNF-a in this post:

Swine Flu and Avoiding the Cytokine Storm: What to Eat and What Not to Eat?

Specifically, garlic, green tea, red palm oil, resveratrol, quercetin, curcumin and vitamin D.

[youandme]

JLL thanks for adding your research to this thread.!

Its becoming clear that there are many options to reduce TNF A.....

JLL which one would you pick..or which ones for COPD and which ones for Inflammatory Autoimmune Conditions ?

TIA

What would be some negative consequences of consuming 9 gr fish oil every day ? Ideally, maybe it would be best to do a loading phase of say, 1 week at 9 gr fish oil. Then reduce this amount to 9 gr once per week and the other 6 days, consume something like flax oil, which also reduces TNF-a to a lesser extent. I suppose this would avoid some negative side effects/oxidation potential from using too much fish oil. Bleh.

I know some people think in vivo lipid peroxidation from excess EPA/DHA consumption is only a theoretical concern, but I definitely wouldn't take 9g myself.

Fats and AGEs: PUFAs Are Even Worse than Fructose

As for TNF-a, I wrote about some things that reduce TNF-a in this post:

Swine Flu and Avoiding the Cytokine Storm: What to Eat and What Not to Eat?

Specifically, garlic, green tea, red palm oil, resveratrol, quercetin, curcumin and vitamin D.

[Lufega]

I'm experimenting with a combination of different supplements. I think it's working because I'm starting to notice that it's having a mild immune suppressing effect (not good, though). I say this because I noticed some bruises and cuts that are not healing after more than a week. One seems to have gotten infected. I bit my tongue a couple days ago and it still feel tender as if it happened today. This is what I'm using that inhibits TNF-alpha or phosphodiesterase.

SAMe - 800 mg
Carnitine - 2 grams
Sceletium tortuosum* - 400 mg
Forskolin* - 10 mg
Caffeine* - 400 mg
Curcumin (meriva) - 1.5 gr
Vitamin D - 50,000 IU once per week.

*TNF inhibiton occurs via increased cAMP.

[JLL]

JLL thanks for adding your research to this thread.!

Its becoming clear that there are many options to reduce TNF A.....

JLL which one would you pick..or which ones for COPD and which ones for Inflammatory Autoimmune Conditions ?

TIA

I don't know which one is the best TNF-a inhibitor, but most of the stuff mentioned in the post is pretty easy to take regularly (like drinking a few cups of green tea daily and adding turmeric to food), so why not take a combination. Besides, they have other benefits as well.

[Logan]

Luteolin

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15589482

[Lufega]

Luteolin

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15589482

thanks for that study. Luteolin is also a PDE4 inhibitor so it increases CAMP and this has a strong anti-inflammatory effect. I like the fact that this works specifically in the respiratory system. I don't know much about it's bioavailability. Does it absorb well ?

[Rational Madman]

Luteolin

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15589482

thanks for that study. Luteolin is also a PDE4 inhibitor so it increases CAMP and this has a strong anti-inflammatory effect. I like the fact that this works specifically in the respiratory system. I don't know much about it's bioavailability. Does it absorb well ?

If you have COPD, I would go with Roflumilast (Daxas), which was recently approved by the FDA for this indication, and is easily attainable from online sources for a subtotal price of $125 (28 pills). It's a powerful inhibitor of PDE4, but it might be wise to combine it with an anti-emetic, since nausea is the most frequent complaint. Because of its similar mechanism to the research compound Rolipram----and superior half life, I underwent a trial last month, but because I'm not suffering from COPD, the effects weren't very appreciable. However, if you want to continue to dally with supplements, that's fine, but as you're probably aware, they're considerably less biologically active than prescription medications.

[Lufega]

Luteolin

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15589482

thanks for that study. Luteolin is also a PDE4 inhibitor so it increases CAMP and this has a strong anti-inflammatory effect. I like the fact that this works specifically in the respiratory system. I don't know much about it's bioavailability. Does it absorb well ?

If you have COPD, I would go with Roflumilast (Daxas), which was recently approved by the FDA for this indication, and is easily attainable from online sources for a subtotal price of $125 (28 pills). It's a powerful inhibitor of PDE4, but it might be wise to combine it with an anti-emetic, since nausea is the most frequent complaint. Because of its similar mechanism to the research compound Rolipram----and superior half life, I underwent a trial last month, but because I'm not suffering from COPD, the effects weren't very appreciable. However, if you want to continue to dally with supplements, that's fine, but as you're probably aware, they're considerably less biologically active than prescription medications.

Those are all great points Rol. I considered using roflumilast but I wanted to get it through my Doctor instead of experimenting myself (ironic huh?). Although the side effects seem mild overall. I found some sites in Canada that sell it cheap but I decided to go with supps because I didn't want total suppression and thus, deal with immune suppression.

Can I ask why you used Daxas if you don't have COPD? Neuroprotection, etc.? Also, any pointers from your experience with the drug ?

edit: I want to add something to this. I don't have full blow COPD...yet. I have a deficiency of alpha-1 antitrypsin (one of the more severe genotypes) so the emphysema and COPD are imminent. I'm already manifesting shortness of breath and I have other signs of systemic inflammation like muscle wasting, chronic fatigue etc. So, I'm getting there. I'm trying to halt the progression in its track. Most people die from this because they get diagnosed late. I was fortunate enough to catch it "early".

Edited by Lufega, 10 May 2011 - 04:25 AM.

[Lufega]

Luteolin

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15589482

thanks for that study. Luteolin is also a PDE4 inhibitor so it increases CAMP and this has a strong anti-inflammatory effect. I like the fact that this works specifically in the respiratory system. I don't know much about it's bioavailability. Does it absorb well ?

If you have COPD, I would go with Roflumilast (Daxas), which was recently approved by the FDA for this indication, and is easily attainable from online sources for a subtotal price of $125 (28 pills). It's a powerful inhibitor of PDE4, but it might be wise to combine it with an anti-emetic, since nausea is the most frequent complaint. Because of its similar mechanism to the research compound Rolipram----and superior half life, I underwent a trial last month, but because I'm not suffering from COPD, the effects weren't very appreciable. However, if you want to continue to dally with supplements, that's fine, but as you're probably aware, they're considerably less biologically active than prescription medications.

I"ve been using roflumilast for a week now and I have consistently felt like crap the whole time. I can't deal with the nausea and headache. Ginger doesn't work against it. Dramamine helps to a degree but I can't tolerate the side effects of this either. Was this your experience during your trial ?

I also found a study that claims that while it acts as a general anti-inflammatory, it also have a proinflammatory effect by increasing IL-8 and keratinocyte-derived chemokine. PMID: 16861399 . So, it's probably best to combine with something else. I'm using curcumin.

Edited by Lufega, 18 June 2011 - 03:47 AM.

[Matt79]

Luteolin

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15589482

Great find! Thanks Logan.

Doesn't look like anyone is packaging this yet in supplement form. Might be opportunity?

I'd buy it. My IL-6 are through the roof!

[brunotto]

<p>

TNF-alpha

Cat's clawPentoxyphilline

Edited by brunotto, 25 August 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[youandme]

Cats Claw ..intreresting herb!

"Uncaria tomentosa acts as a potent TNF-alpha inhibitor through NF-kappaB."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19995599

[nowayout]

Y'know I find it bewildering that a study/s such as comparing efficacy of TNF A inhibitors such as anti-mabs with simpler molecules does not exist has not been done.....a LOT of money goes into prescriptions for anti-mabs

first just for example....

9g/day of Fish Oil inhibits TNF Alpha by 74% ....what can an anti-mab do ?

...74% is a lot...only 26% remaining....A belated easter egg for anyone that can tell the data on anti-mabs !

I doubt any of these supplements do much, to be honest. I've tried most of the ones mentioned here, including fish oil, and none of them do anything at all for me, compared to Enbrel, which works dramatically well. (I have Ankylosing Spondylitis.)

Edited by viveutvivas, 20 September 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[youandme]

Hi viveutvivas

What ones have you tried for how long and at what doses and what else were you taking at the time of each one ?

Thanks

Cats claw...noted the anti cancer properties as we'll.

[DeadMeat]

Probably specific for Crohn's disease, but interesting anyway. Seda Crohn, a herb mixture based on Artemisia absinthium(Wormwood, but not the same as Artemisia annua).
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19962291

Wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) suppresses tumour necrosis factor alpha and accelerates healing in patients with Crohn's disease - A controlled clinical trial.
Krebs S, Omer TN, Omer B.
Department of Nuclear Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, University of Freiburg, Germany. simone.krebs@uniklinik-freiburg.de

Suppression of tumour necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha) and other interleukins by wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) extracts were reported recently in in vitro studies. The aim of the present study was to find out if this effect can be also be observed in Crohn's Disease (CD) patients where TNF-alpha appears to play an important role. In a controlled trial, 10 randomly selected patients suffering from CD were given in addition to their basic CD therapy 3x750mg dried powdered wormwood for 6 weeks. Ten patients, also randomly selected who met the inclusion criteria served as control group. Minimum score of 200 on Crohn's Disease Activity Index (CDAI) was required at baseline for inclusion in each group. Patients who received infliximab or similar were excluded from the trial. TNF-alpha level in serum were measured at baseline, and after three and six weeks. During this period all concomitant CD medications was maintained at the baseline dose levels. Average serum TNF-alpha level fell from 24.5+/-3.5pg/ml at baseline to 8.0+/-2.5pg/ml after six weeks. The corresponding levels in the control group were 25.7+/-4.6 (week 0), and 21.1+/-3.2 (week 6). On the clinical side, CDAI scores fell from 275+/-15 to below 175+/-12 in wormwood group with remission of symptoms in eight patients (CDAI score below 170 or reduction by 70 points), compared to only two in the placebo group (CDAI of placebo group 282+/-11 at baseline and 230+/-14 on week 6). IBDQ also reflected accelerated clinical response with wormwood. Of clinical significance were the findings that wormwood also improved mood of the CD patients, as reflected in Hamilton's Depression Scale. These findings provide a base to test wormwood in clinical conditions thought to be mediated by increased production of pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha.

full text.
http://www.thefreeli......-a0226382998

Edited by DeadMeat, 23 September 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Matt79]

I've tried most of the ones mentioned here, including fish oil, and none of them do anything at all for me, compared to Enbrel, which works dramatically well. (I have Ankylosing Spondylitis.)

FWIW I have RA, was on a path to being crippled 5 years ago. Went on Enbrel, and it worked very well, but didn't like the risks. Been off it for 3+ years. No medication, hardly any symptoms of RA.

• Changed diet massively.
• Eat a shit load of fish oil (10-15 caps p/d).

YMMV

[nowayout]

I've tried most of the ones mentioned here, including fish oil, and none of them do anything at all for me, compared to Enbrel, which works dramatically well. (I have Ankylosing Spondylitis.)

FWIW I have RA, was on a path to being crippled 5 years ago. Went on Enbrel, and it worked very well, but didn't like the risks. Been off it for 3+ years. No medication, hardly any symptoms of RA.

• Changed diet massively.
• Eat a shit load of fish oil (10-15 caps p/d).

YMMV

I am glad you are having a remission, but periods of remission do tend to happen in autoimmune conditions. It cannot necessarily be ascribed to any dietary intervention. I'm not saying it couldn't be...

People who really ate badly before often report improvements in their condition when improving their diet. For people who have always eaten very healthily (like me) it seems dietary changes that eliminate this or that don't do much.

Fish oil has always made my condition feel more painful. Whether it makes the inflammation worse or perhaps its effects on the nervous system intensifies the transmission of pain or contributes to pain chronicity I don't know.

[Joe Cohen]

SUPPLEMENTS AND LIFESTYLE FACTORS THAT INHIBIT TNF-ALPHA