15 replies to this topic

[enoch1]

hi All,

Considering of using Lithium orotate from Doctors Best, is this an effective brand to go for ?

Thanks in advance

[gamesguru]

I use and very much like Advanced Research lit oro, but lithium is such a cheap compound to extract I would hardly imagine any lab using filler. Heavy metals might be a concern, depending on the lab.

[enoch1]

Cool thank you. Ate there any dangers using liithium orotate ? Such as brain damage ? I've read a few post claiming it increases grey matter which is a positive ? I'm firmiliar how it surpresses Da/ne increases serotonin release.

[niner]

Cool thank you. Ate there any dangers using liithium orotate ? Such as brain damage ? I've read a few post claiming it increases grey matter which is a positive ? I'm firmiliar how it surpresses Da/ne increases serotonin release.

No major dangers at sane dosages, like 1-5 mg (elemental) per day. Lots of possible side effects, though. Tiredness, grouchyness... I cut my dose back from 5mg/day to 2.5mg/day. I thought it might have been causing me to get angry more easily. I'm just splitting the Drs. Best tablet. So far so good.

[Steve_86]

Cool thank you. Ate there any dangers using liithium orotate ? Such as brain damage ? I've read a few post claiming it increases grey matter which is a positive ? I'm firmiliar how it surpresses Da/ne increases serotonin release.

No major dangers at sane dosages, like 1-5 mg (elemental) per day. Lots of possible side effects, though. Tiredness, grouchyness... I cut my dose back from 5mg/day to 2.5mg/day. I thought it might have been causing me to get angry more easily. I'm just splitting the Drs. Best tablet. So far so good.

Interesting, I thought lithium was very calming for most people. I can't image it making me get angry easier.

[yoyo]

I bought some lithium citrate a few years ago. it lasts forever because of how low the dose is vs psychatric use

[InquilineKea]

Hm, if 125mg of lithium orotate is equivalent to 5mg of elemental lithium, then 25mg of lithium orotate is equivalent to 1mg of lithium. But that still translates to 5 capsules at http://www.amazon.co...6562995&sr=8-1.

But yet, most people here only take 1-2 capsules of lithium per day. Is this too low for anything to happen?

Also, doesn't lithium have a cognitively dulling effect? As in, can it make you stupid DESPITE increased neurogenesis? Apparently, "The average developmental score for the lithium-exposed group of children was 7–8 points lower than the control group (siblings), but well within the normal range of 100±15.[17]"

Edited by InquilineKea, 28 May 2011 - 06:39 AM.

[bdoris]

Hm, if 125mg of lithium orotate is equivalent to 5mg of elemental lithium, then 25mg of lithium orotate is equivalent to 1mg of lithium. But that still translates to 5 capsules at http://www.amazon.co...6562995&sr=8-1.

But yet, most people here only take 1-2 capsules of lithium per day. Is this too low for anything to happen?

Also, doesn't lithium have a cognitively dulling effect? As in, can it make you stupid DESPITE increased neurogenesis? Apparently, "The average developmental score for the lithium-exposed group of children was 7–8 points lower than the control group (siblings), but well within the normal range of 100±15.[17]"

A developing brain =/= an adult brain. Lithium, to be effective pharmaceutically, has a very narrow window that is very close to the toxicity levels - and can overlap some with the therapeutic window. There's a reason why Lithium is a prescription drug in most forms except the orotate - because of supplement legislation - form which can be sold as a supplement. Doesn't make it safe, it's the same ion.

Don't expect a pronounced effect - you'll probably feel nothing at supplement dosages, the only benefits may be on long term. And if you decide to use it a higher dosage, then you have to be closely monitored by a real doctor, with many blood tests to determine your lithium serum levels and determine an effective dosage, as it can be fatal.

Serum lithium levels and psychosocial function in patients with bipolar I disorder.
Acute lithium intoxication: properly directing an index of suspicion.
Fatal lithium toxicity with therapeutic levels - a case report.
The incidence and clinical correlates of lithium toxicity: a retrospective review.
Check into that, useful stuff to know:
A new strategy for antidepressant prescription.
More details on the interactions, etc.


On a side note, I have Lithium orotate in my supplement shelves, though I'm not using it - Lithium can be stressful on kidneys, and I wouldn't mix it in with lots of other supplements.

Edited by bdoris, 28 May 2011 - 07:59 AM.

[InquilineKea]

Oh wow - thanks for all the information! To get the cognitive benefits of lithium though, how much would I need to take? I most certainly don't want to take resveratrol-like doses (aka, doses FAR FAR smaller than doses that would have any effect at all)

[bdoris]

Oh wow - thanks for all the information! To get the cognitive benefits of lithium though, how much would I need to take? I most certainly don't want to take resveratrol-like doses (aka, doses FAR FAR smaller than doses that would have any effect at all)

The cognitive benefits are the following ones (hope you have access to the journal for full-text):
Effects of a chronic lithium treatment on central dopamine neurotransporters.

How much - I can't tell, I'd have to research the bioavailability of Lithium orotate, with a wild guess it would be lower than the Lithium carbonate form. By how much? No idea, but there are probably some articles out there.

If you want 'benefits' it means pharmaceutical doses - I suggest consulting a doctor, making the necessary tests, and using the Lithium carbonate - you'd take much less risks - it is a List I prescription drug IIRC in Belgium so a normal doctor should be able to prescribe it.

[niner]

Hm, if 125mg of lithium orotate is equivalent to 5mg of elemental lithium, then 25mg of lithium orotate is equivalent to 1mg of lithium. But that still translates to 5 capsules at http://www.amazon.co...6562995&sr=8-1.

But yet, most people here only take 1-2 capsules of lithium per day. Is this too low for anything to happen?

The Drs Best Lithium Orotate that you linked to is 125mg of the Li Orotate salt, which contains 5mg of elemental lithium. The other 120 mg is the orotate counterion. It's standard practice to label minerals as elemental, since the RDAs are given as elemental, and with all the different counterion possibilities it would be really confusing to go by the weight of the entire molecule.

A developing brain =/= an adult brain. Lithium, to be effective pharmaceutically, has a very narrow window that is very close to the toxicity levels - and can overlap some with the therapeutic window. There's a reason why Lithium is a prescription drug in most forms except the orotate - because of supplement legislation - form which can be sold as a supplement. Doesn't make it safe, it's the same ion.

On a side note, I have Lithium orotate in my supplement shelves, though I'm not using it - Lithium can be stressful on kidneys, and I wouldn't mix it in with lots of other supplements.

I think you're confusing the use of lithium for treatment of bipolar disorder, which is done at very high dosages, with the very small doses that are used as supplements. For treatment of mania, a patient might get 1800mg of the carbonate daily. That's around 180mg of elemental lithium. This is a dose that approaches the toxic level. When used supplementally, people take 1-5 mg elemental, which is similar to natural exposure in many places. I don't believe that there is any evidence that this level represents a danger. In fact, there is evidence that insufficient lithium represents a danger, in that it appears to increase the risk of suicide and criminality. I'm not aware of any reason not to take low dose lithium with other supplements. If you're talking about taking multiples of the supplemental dose, then yes, if you took a handful of the Drs Best pills, you would have a problem, but that's true of most drugs.

[InquilineKea]

Wow thanks - I see! Yup - "The Drs Best Lithium Orotate that you linked to is 125mg of the Li Orotate salt, which contains 5mg of elemental lithium. The other 120 mg is the orotate counterion. It's standard practice to label minerals as elemental, since the RDAs are given as elemental, and with all the different counterion possibilities it would be really confusing to go by the weight of the entire molecule." is definitely the response that I really liked.

[bdoris]

I think you're confusing the use of lithium for treatment of bipolar disorder, which is done at very high dosages, with the very small doses that are used as supplements. For treatment of mania, a patient might get 1800mg of the carbonate daily. That's around 180mg of elemental lithium. This is a dose that approaches the toxic level. When used supplementally, people take 1-5 mg elemental, which is similar to natural exposure in many places. I don't believe that there is any evidence that this level represents a danger. In fact, there is evidence that insufficient lithium represents a danger, in that it appears to increase the risk of suicide and criminality. I'm not aware of any reason not to take low dose lithium with other supplements. If you're talking about taking multiples of the supplemental dose, then yes, if you took a handful of the Drs Best pills, you would have a problem, but that's true of most drugs.

No, I'm not confusing anything. OP seems to be in pursuit of palpable cognitive benefits and doesn't appear to want to take low dosages. See:

Oh wow - thanks for all the information! To get the cognitive benefits of lithium though, how much would I need to take? I most certainly don't want to take resveratrol-like doses (aka, doses FAR FAR smaller than doses that would have any effect at all)

It it wasn't clear enough from OP's first post:

Cool thank you. Ate there any dangers using liithium orotate ? Such as brain damage ? I've read a few post claiming it increases grey matter which is a positive ? I'm firmiliar how it surpresses Da/ne increases serotonin release.

Those dosages required for treatment of very many things using Lithium - not only Bipolar disorder - is the required dosages for real therapeutic effects - those same dosages would produce a palpable effect, by augmenting the DA, thus plasticity of the brain, basically what he has read about, yadayada.

I'm not saying a supplement dosage is useless, though the effects are negligible on a person to person basis and OP's interested into a pharmaceutical use for whatever and I'm simply pointing out the dangers.

[niner]

I think you're confusing the use of lithium for treatment of bipolar disorder, which is done at very high dosages, with the very small doses that are used as supplements. For treatment of mania, a patient might get 1800mg of the carbonate daily. That's around 180mg of elemental lithium. This is a dose that approaches the toxic level. When used supplementally, people take 1-5 mg elemental, which is similar to natural exposure in many places. I don't believe that there is any evidence that this level represents a danger. In fact, there is evidence that insufficient lithium represents a danger, in that it appears to increase the risk of suicide and criminality. I'm not aware of any reason not to take low dose lithium with other supplements. If you're talking about taking multiples of the supplemental dose, then yes, if you took a handful of the Drs Best pills, you would have a problem, but that's true of most drugs.

No, I'm not confusing anything. OP seems to be in pursuit of palpable cognitive benefits and doesn't appear to want to take low dosages. See:

Oh wow - thanks for all the information! To get the cognitive benefits of lithium though, how much would I need to take? I most certainly don't want to take resveratrol-like doses (aka, doses FAR FAR smaller than doses that would have any effect at all)

It it wasn't clear enough from OP's first post:

Cool thank you. Ate there any dangers using liithium orotate ? Such as brain damage ? I've read a few post claiming it increases grey matter which is a positive ? I'm firmiliar how it surpresses Da/ne increases serotonin release.

Those dosages required for treatment of very many things using Lithium - not only Bipolar disorder - is the required dosages for real therapeutic effects - those same dosages would produce a palpable effect, by augmenting the DA, thus plasticity of the brain, basically what he has read about, yadayada.

I'm not saying a supplement dosage is useless, though the effects are negligible on a person to person basis and OP's interested into a pharmaceutical use for whatever and I'm simply pointing out the dangers.

Ok, I see what you're saying, should the OP or anyone else take enough lithium. There have been a lot of reports here of very noticeable effects even from low doses of lithium; these are largely the sorts of things I would classify as negative side effects. There are also positive effects from low doses; these have been described mainly in an epidemiological context, and tend to be subtle.

[John2009]

The V-mortal supplement label says it contains 1 MG of lithium orotate. However, is this 1MG of elemental Lithium, or just 1MG of lithium Orotate ? How much lithium orotate is actually in V-mortal and how much elemental lithium is in V-mortal ?

What is likely the highest safe long term dose of lithium orotate ?

[e Volution]

Here is a 1mg (Elemental) Lithium Orotate supplement: https://www.essentah...tarian-capsules

 

It is manufactured in the USA, and from USA-sourced Lithium (not that I am aware of Lithium being sourced anywhere else for commercial supplements?).

 

I'm not aware of any other 1mg supplements on the market, in capsule form.

 

 

Edited by e Volution, 20 February 2018 - 03:39 PM.